help: kits choice suggestions

[Shin Gou]

I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an
airplane simply because it's cheaper. I naturally come here to sort
for help from you, the veteran builders (both skills and age. I am in
20s and I read the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this
scares me.) Here are my requirements for the "dream plane" at this
stage:

1. must be easy and fast to build. Builder assist program or fast
build kit will be perfect. Prefer proven designs. Yes, I think I will
get more fun out of flying.

2. must be good IFR platform. I will install IFR panel and get my IFR
training in the aircraft.

3. engine power up to 180 hp. reason: this is the maximum power the
engine can use auto gas (Jabiru 5100) because the places I will likely
fly around unlikely have 100LL fuel supply.

4. must have good performance at high altitude (take-off, climb). I
will very likely from time to time fly in high altitude terrain
(airports or strips often at above 12,000 feet) .

5. must have off-airport t/o and landing capacity, but STOL is not a
must because those places I will likely fly to have wide open fields
just the surface is rough (even barely having grass.)

6. must have acceptable cross country capability, i.e. cruise speed,
range, cabin comfortability etc.

7. load, load, load. I would prefer a 2+2 type aircraft, but 2-seaters
having big load capacity are also perfect since I will probably use
the rear cabin of the 2+2 plane for cargo load most time anyway.

I know it's a long list (how long are yours, just curious?), but as
you've probably read from the list, I have a tight budget and will
probably fly this plane for a long time before I could afford another
kit or new certified one, so I really want to find a good balanced
aircraft. BTW, I won't consider used certified aircrafts because I
just can't fly them in those places. Where will I fly around? You
guess....for sure it's not in this country.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Xin

[Del Rawlins]

On 01 Sep 2003 04:32 PM, Shin Gou posted the following:
> I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an
> airplane simply because it's cheaper. I naturally come here to sort
> for help from you, the veteran builders (both skills and age. I am in
> 20s and I read the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this
> scares me.) Here are my requirements for the "dream plane" at this
> stage:
<snip>

You might consider the Bearhawk, even though it probably has more STOL
capability than you need. The prototype gets good performance with a
180hp lycoming and several builders have installed/are installing IFR
panels. I believe the kit company has a builders' assistance center in
Florida.

http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[BD5ER]

>
>I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an
>airplane simply because it's cheaper.

If you are considering just the cost of the plane it might be cheaper. But if
you factor in all of the tools and heated/airconditioned shop needed to build a
plane the cost rises quickely.

>I am in
>20s and I read the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this
>scares me.)

Earning the money for, and acquiring the above mentioned tools takes time for
most of us. And if you decide to have a family along the way life kind of has a
way of taking your time...........

I like to build things and would have bought the tools and shop anyway. But if
you want to fly, buy. I could have bought several nice planes for what I have
invested in my hobby.

[[email protected]]

Generally, you can buy a finished homebuilt for about the amount of
money that the builder put in it.

If you could find a Bearhawk or a V6 STOL, or one of the big Murphys
(the Moose or the Super Rebel) and you can afford it or finance it,
you'd be ahead.

If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy.



On 1 Sep 2003 17:32:28 -0700, (Shin Gou) wrote:

:I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an
:airplane simply because it's cheaper. I naturally come here to sort
:for help from you, the veteran builders (both skills and age. I am in
:20s and I read the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this
:scares me.) Here are my requirements for the "dream plane" at this
:stage:
:
:1. must be easy and fast to build. Builder assist program or fast
:build kit will be perfect. Prefer proven designs. Yes, I think I will
:get more fun out of flying.
:
:2. must be good IFR platform. I will install IFR panel and get my IFR
:training in the aircraft.
:
:3. engine power up to 180 hp. reason: this is the maximum power the
:engine can use auto gas (Jabiru 5100) because the places I will likely
:fly around unlikely have 100LL fuel supply.
:
:4. must have good performance at high altitude (take-off, climb). I
:will very likely from time to time fly in high altitude terrain
:(airports or strips often at above 12,000 feet) .
:
:5. must have off-airport t/o and landing capacity, but STOL is not a
:must because those places I will likely fly to have wide open fields
:just the surface is rough (even barely having grass.)
:
:6. must have acceptable cross country capability, i.e. cruise speed,
:range, cabin comfortability etc.
:
:7. load, load, load. I would prefer a 2+2 type aircraft, but 2-seaters
:having big load capacity are also perfect since I will probably use
:the rear cabin of the 2+2 plane for cargo load most time anyway.
:
:I know it's a long list (how long are yours, just curious?), but as
:you've probably read from the list, I have a tight budget and will
:probably fly this plane for a long time before I could afford another
:kit or new certified one, so I really want to find a good balanced
:aircraft. BTW, I won't consider used certified aircrafts because I
:just can't fly them in those places. Where will I fly around? You
:guess....for sure it's not in this country.
:
:Thanks a lot in advance.
:
:Xin

[Holger Stephan]

Xin,

You could consider picking up an unfinished BD-4 kit. There are some
listed at the classifieds at http://bd-4.org. This should get you a 180
MPH (on 180 HP) 2+2 for less money than with any other design. It is
proven (34 years of history), you can slap in a wide variety of power
plants and the simple construction will make it easier to fix a damage
when you're at places like you described.

If the places you want to land are really rough a Bearhawk is the better
alternative. The quickbuild kit runs you around $24k. Lots of space and
payload.

Your requirements catalog reads a bit like mine when I decided to get one
of the affordable BD-4 projects and add utility by converting it to tail
wheel (was tri), beefing up the landing gear and making the fuselage
longer and a bit higher (mine is a true 4 seat aircraft). It has been
done by others before and flown, so I felt quite safe doing these
modifications.

Why can't you fly a certified plane in the country you are talking about?
Which country is it anyway?

- Holger

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:32:28 +0000, Shin Gou wrote:

> I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an airplane
> simply because it's cheaper. I naturally come here to sort for help from
> you, the veteran builders (both skills and age. I am in 20s and I read
> the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this scares me.) Here
> are my requirements for the "dream plane" at this stage:
....

[Richard Lamb]

Ok, mine in a plans built rather than a kitplane.
But they are sorta similar.

When I started this project I was living in an apartment.
Upstairs.

The fuselage went together at the airport, then, on the
gear, it went up on a 12' flatbed trailer.
Actually had it in the parking lot of my apartment complex
for over a year. I got a bit done on it there.
The turtleback formers and stringers, firewall, and panel were
all built on the trailer. Rudder pedals, tailwheel, etc too.

Mostly drilling and bolting then, so the inverter in my old
pickup powered the drill, or saber saw. Sorta side stepped that
whole extension cord problem...

It drew a lot of interest from the neighborhood.

Being an Air Force community, most recognized it as a potential
aeroplane, but one guy thought it was a pretty clever moble
deer stand. Go figger.

And nobody ever bothered anything.


But you can't really build a complete airplane that way.

Oh maybe SOME poor body might, but it's not practical.



My new parasol is going to break $5000.
The cover job (all Stits) and big engine pushed it over.

It took an extra year and another $12,000 to build the shop.
And another year to pay for it.

Draw any conclusion you wish, but it takes money.
Even to build a cheap airplane...


Richard
http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/

[Shin Gou]

Thanks very much for the helpful and prompt replies. Here are my
answers to your questions and some follow-up questions. I hope this
thread wouldn't go toooo long.




>Xin
>What you want isn't what most would consider a budget plane but since
>you didn't say how little you want to spent how about a murphy moose.
>Lots of stability for IFR and tons of payload with a 360hp. autofeul
>buning engine.

A 360hp engine using mogas? I'd be a little skeptical about using it
with confidence even if it works. What engine is it?


>You might consider the Bearhawk, even though it probably has more
STOL
>capability than you need. The prototype gets good performance with a
>180hp lycoming and several builders have installed/are installing IFR
>panels. I believe the kit company has a builders' assistance center
in
>Florida.

>http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/

This one will be on my list.


>Generally, you can buy a finished homebuilt for about the amount of
>money that the builder put in it.

>If you could find a Bearhawk or a V6 STOL, or one of the big Murphys
>(the Moose or the Super Rebel) and you can afford it or finance it,
>you'd be ahead.

>If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy.

Actually, I am looking for a nice used homebuilt.


>Xin,

>You could consider picking up an unfinished BD-4 kit. There are some
>listed at the classifieds at http://bd-4.org. This should get you a
180
>MPH (on 180 HP) 2+2 for less money than with any other design. It is
>proven (34 years of history), you can slap in a wide variety of power
>plants and the simple construction will make it easier to fix a
damage
>when you're at places like you described.

>If the places you want to land are really rough a Bearhawk is the
better
>alternative. The quickbuild kit runs you around $24k. Lots of space
and
>payload.

>Your requirements catalog reads a bit like mine when I decided to get
one
>of the affordable BD-4 projects and add utility by converting it to
tail
>wheel (was tri), beefing up the landing gear and making the fuselage
>longer and a bit higher (mine is a true 4 seat aircraft). It has been
>done by others before and flown, so I felt quite safe doing these
>modifications.

>Why can't you fly a certified plane in the country you are talking
about?
>Which country is it anyway?

- Holger

Thanks, Holger. I've been told and have been noticing BD-4, very nice
design. But the only thing is I really prefer a builder assist
program. But BD-4 will be on my list—maybe not at the top.

I just can't fly a USED certified plane in...........China. I am from
China and work in DC now. China prohibits imports of used planes and
cars(reason? I wish I could read the government's mind. But sometimes
they are very simple, maybe just to save face.) All airspace is dual
controlled from the ground by civilian regulator and the military.
Flying a Cessna 172 or so is extremely hassle and expensive. But the
tricky thing is there's no rule upon kit or plan-built planes. Maybe
the government never thought its people would build airplanes. So if I
keep a low profile, I can fly such a plane without filing and paying a
flight plan up to one week ahead, paying for each t/o and landing,
paying for the use of airspace, paying for ATC........etc etc. But
hey, the other side of the coin of unrule is that if I **** off
someone, every government agency can kick my ass.
All right, enough whines. Here's how I think I am going to use the
plane. I live in southwest China very close to Tibet area. The
landscape in this part of the country is gorgeous, i.e. very high
mountains and deep gorges, grass land, huge desert etc everything you
can imagine ideal for hikers and photographers but tough if not
scaring for pilots and their planes. No avgas, rough fields but wide
open.
I have to admit now I am really interested in the French Dyn Aero's
MCR series, especially the bushplane and the 4-seater versions. They
are more expensive, but much faster, and highly regarded in Europe
(assuming proven design). But seems their American distributor
American Ghiles Aircraft's website is down, and I can't even find much
info. about this aircraft's flying in the US at google.

I am still open to other plane choices.

Xin

[Rich S.]

"Shin Gou" > wrote in message
om...
>
> A 360hp engine using mogas? I'd be a little skeptical about using it
> with confidence even if it works. What engine is it?

Xin...........

My Corvette burns mogas. No problem with 360 hp.

> Actually, I am looking for a nice used homebuilt.

Good thinking!

> I just can't fly a USED certified plane in...........China. I am from
> China and work in DC now. China prohibits imports of used planes and
> cars(reason? I wish I could read the government's mind. But sometimes
> they are very simple, maybe just to save face.) All airspace is dual
> controlled from the ground by civilian regulator and the military.
> Flying a Cessna 172 or so is extremely hassle and expensive. But the
> tricky thing is there's no rule upon kit or plan-built planes. Maybe
> the government never thought its people would build airplanes. So if I
> keep a low profile, I can fly such a plane without filing and paying a
> flight plan up to one week ahead, paying for each t/o and landing,
> paying for the use of airspace, paying for ATC........etc etc. But
> hey, the other side of the coin of unrule is that if I **** off
> someone, every government agency can kick my ass.
> All right, enough whines. Here's how I think I am going to use the
> plane. I live in southwest China very close to Tibet area. The
> landscape in this part of the country is gorgeous, i.e. very high
> mountains and deep gorges, grass land, huge desert etc everything you
> can imagine ideal for hikers and photographers but tough if not
> scaring for pilots and their planes. No avgas, rough fields but wide
> open.
>
> I am still open to other plane choices.
>
> Xin

You the man!!! If everyone in China had your mindset, our countries would be
as close as they were 60 years ago. I applaud you.

Rich "You need a Harrier" S.

[Del Rawlins]

On 02 Sep 2003 12:08 PM, Shin Gou posted the following:

> A 360hp engine using mogas? I'd be a little skeptical about using it
> with confidence even if it works. What engine is it?

The Moose uses the Russian M-14P radial, which I am told burns mogas
just fine, along with (and I quote) "whatever the russians call gasoline.
" There is a builder installing this engine in a Bearhawk, but since it
is a slightly smaller, lighter plane than the Moose it is requiring some
airframe mods and probably is more trouble than it is worth, considering
that the 260hp (lycoming, also autogas) version is reputed to climb like
a raped ape and doesn't need the airframe mods.

I believe there is/was a Chinese version of the M-14P but I don't think
it made the full 360hp. If the engines/parts are available in your
country that might be a deciding factor.

> Flying a Cessna 172 or so is extremely hassle and expensive. But the
> tricky thing is there's no rule upon kit or plan-built planes. Maybe
> the government never thought its people would build airplanes. So if I
> keep a low profile, I can fly such a plane without filing and paying a
> flight plan up to one week ahead, paying for each t/o and landing,
> paying for the use of airspace, paying for ATC........etc etc. But
> hey, the other side of the coin of unrule is that if I **** off
> someone, every government agency can kick my ass.

That's harsh. Best of luck to you.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Corrie]

alexy > wrote in message >...
> (Shin Gou) wrote:
>
>
> >I just can't fly a USED certified plane in...........China. I am from
> >China and work in DC now. China prohibits imports of used planes and
> >cars(reason? I wish I could read the government's mind. But sometimes
> >they are very simple, maybe just to save face.) All airspace is dual
> >controlled from the ground by civilian regulator and the military.
> >Flying a Cessna 172 or so is extremely hassle and expensive. But the
> >tricky thing is there's no rule upon kit or plan-built planes. Maybe
> >the government never thought its people would build airplanes. So if I
> >keep a low profile, I can fly such a plane without filing and paying a
> >flight plan up to one week ahead, paying for each t/o and landing,
> >paying for the use of airspace, paying for ATC........etc etc.

> So the rules don't anticipate homebuilts? What response do you expect
> when you show up on the radar screens without a flight plan filed, if
> that is normal for all domestic traffic?

I'd guess that he's expecting to stay in ground clutter, given that
he's puttering about in the foothills of the Himalayas. Not sure what
the radar coverage is there, if any. Maybe the Chinese are worried
about the Dali Lama's air force, maybe not. A fabric-covered tube
fuselage and wooden wing are mostly transparent to radar, aren't they?
Ehh, forgot about the aluminum dope. Big sky, small target...

[Shin Gou]

(Corrie) wrote in message >...
> alexy > wrote in message >...
> > (Shin Gou) wrote:
> >
> >
> > >I just can't fly a USED certified plane in...........China. I am from
> > >China and work in DC now. China prohibits imports of used planes and
> > >cars(reason? I wish I could read the government's mind. But sometimes
> > >they are very simple, maybe just to save face.) All airspace is dual
> > >controlled from the ground by civilian regulator and the military.
> > >Flying a Cessna 172 or so is extremely hassle and expensive. But the
> > >tricky thing is there's no rule upon kit or plan-built planes. Maybe
> > >the government never thought its people would build airplanes. So if I
> > >keep a low profile, I can fly such a plane without filing and paying a
> > >flight plan up to one week ahead, paying for each t/o and landing,
> > >paying for the use of airspace, paying for ATC........etc etc.
>
> > So the rules don't anticipate homebuilts? What response do you expect
> > when you show up on the radar screens without a flight plan filed, if
> > that is normal for all domestic traffic?
>
> I'd guess that he's expecting to stay in ground clutter, given that
> he's puttering about in the foothills of the Himalayas. Not sure what
> the radar coverage is there, if any. Maybe the Chinese are worried
> about the Dali Lama's air force, maybe not. A fabric-covered tube
> fuselage and wooden wing are mostly transparent to radar, aren't they?
> Ehh, forgot about the aluminum dope. Big sky, small target...

I wouldn't expect to fly above 3000 feet AGL. The Himalayas area is
simply fun to fly and may be relatively easy to fly in the name of
"air sport" even if I don't file any flight plan, but not try to
escape radar coverage. very true there's very limited civilian ATC
radar coverage in that area, but you bet, the military radar covers
the whole area like a net--a double-layer net. My compulsory military
training in the high school was in a radar regiment's headquarter.
They have radar stations in most of those mountains easily above 15000
feet in Himalaya area, only accessible by mules and choppers (they use
the US blackhawk, interesting? I don't know which kind of mule they
use though), and they are not the only radar division there.....
Sorry to distract the topic. I think Moose is too big for my misson. I
am now looking fr a 2-seater which uses Rotax 912 or 914 engine(these
engines seem to be designed to use mogas.) The choice list seems
endless in this class, hard work ahead......

[Pete]

I can't remember your initial requirements but check out the Europa
http://www.europa-aircraft.com/

There is one now flying in nearby (?) Mongolia - after fiying the Atlantic
and Pacific to get there.
http://www.thomas.scherer.com/

Cheers & good luck with deciding,
Pete
Europa A239 dual-wing


>
> I wouldn't expect to fly above 3000 feet AGL. The Himalayas area is
> simply fun to fly and may be relatively easy to fly in the name of
> "air sport" even if I don't file any flight plan, but not try to
> escape radar coverage. very true there's very limited civilian ATC
> radar coverage in that area, but you bet, the military radar covers
> the whole area like a net--a double-layer net. My compulsory military
> training in the high school was in a radar regiment's headquarter.
> They have radar stations in most of those mountains easily above 15000
> feet in Himalaya area, only accessible by mules and choppers (they use
> the US blackhawk, interesting? I don't know which kind of mule they
> use though), and they are not the only radar division there.....
> Sorry to distract the topic. I think Moose is too big for my misson. I
> am now looking fr a 2-seater which uses Rotax 912 or 914 engine(these
> engines seem to be designed to use mogas.) The choice list seems
> endless in this class, hard work ahead......

[Del Rawlins]

On 03 Sep 2003 05:06 PM, Shin Gou posted the following:

> Sorry to distract the topic. I think Moose is too big for my misson. I
> am now looking fr a 2-seater which uses Rotax 912 or 914 engine(these
> engines seem to be designed to use mogas.) The choice list seems
> endless in this class, hard work ahead......

Slepcev Storch?

http://www.storch.com.au/

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Jbaloun]

Thanks Del,

I was not aware of the Bearhawk. Looks like a great design.

Aviation is amazing. You study it for years and still find more that
you did not know.

James

Del Rawlins > wrote in message >...
> On 01 Sep 2003 04:32 PM, Shin Gou posted the following:
> > I expect to get my PPL soon and serioulsy consider to build an
> > airplane simply because it's cheaper. I naturally come here to sort
> > for help from you, the veteran builders (both skills and age. I am in
> > 20s and I read the average age of kit plane builders is over 50--this
> > scares me.) Here are my requirements for the "dream plane" at this
> > stage:
> <snip>
>
> You might consider the Bearhawk, even though it probably has more STOL
> capability than you need. The prototype gets good performance with a
> 180hp lycoming and several builders have installed/are installing IFR
> panels. I believe the kit company has a builders' assistance center in
> Florida.
>
> http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/