US airspace under civilian authority...true?

[Charles Packer]

Matthew L. Wald, who has covered aviation
for the NY Times for years and years,
in today's Times wrote "Normally, the FAA asks
the Pentagon for use of offshore airspace
on a day-by-day or hour-by-hour basis."
What was he smoking?

I believe it's the other way around, that
by law, US airspace is entirely under
civilian control. Formally, it's the
DOD that asks the FAA for airspace,
(which is usually granted). Can somebody
in this newsgroup confirm this? All I
know is that a few years ago I was
writing software for the miniature
bureaucracy within the FAA whose
purpose is to schedule military use
of airspace.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

[Ron]

On Nov 16, 8:35 am, Charles Packer > wrote:
> Matthew L. Wald, who has covered aviation
> for the NY Times for years and years,
> in today's Times wrote "Normally, the FAA asks
> the Pentagon for use of offshore airspace
> on a day-by-day or hour-by-hour basis."
> What was he smoking?
>
> I believe it's the other way around, that
> by law, US airspace is entirely under
> civilian control. Formally, it's the
> DOD that asks the FAA for airspace,
> (which is usually granted). Can somebody
> in this newsgroup confirm this? All I
> know is that a few years ago I was
> writing software for the miniature
> bureaucracy within the FAA whose
> purpose is to schedule military use
> of airspace.
>
> --
> Charles Packerhttp://cpacker.org/whatnews
> mailboxATcpacker.org

But there are different kinds of airspace, and there was the word
"offshore" where you have alert
and warning areas, that Air Traffic Control is not going to send
aircraft through, if there are military
exercises going on offshore.

And there are kinds of airspace not offshore, that are under military
control, like the Nellis Ranges and White Sands for example. MOAs
are not under military control, but when they are being needed by
military aircraft, aircraft on instrument flight plans will be routed
away from that airspace.

[BT]

air space is under civil authority
air space is divided up with various users, primarily military
the civil will ask the military to give up their "reserved" airspace in time
of need
need being.. weather causing routing changes into "reserved military"
airspace

it happens all the time.. you just don't hear about it, until the Prez makes
a "political statement", to show the ignorant public that he is doing
something about their travel woes..
BT

"Charles Packer" > wrote in message
...
> Matthew L. Wald, who has covered aviation
> for the NY Times for years and years,
> in today's Times wrote "Normally, the FAA asks
> the Pentagon for use of offshore airspace
> on a day-by-day or hour-by-hour basis."
> What was he smoking?
>
> I believe it's the other way around, that
> by law, US airspace is entirely under
> civilian control. Formally, it's the
> DOD that asks the FAA for airspace,
> (which is usually granted). Can somebody
> in this newsgroup confirm this? All I
> know is that a few years ago I was
> writing software for the miniature
> bureaucracy within the FAA whose
> purpose is to schedule military use
> of airspace.
>
> --
> Charles Packer
> http://cpacker.org/whatnews
> mailboxATcpacker.org

[Charles Packer]

On Nov 16, 9:09 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> air space is under civil authority
> air space is divided up with various users, primarily military
> the civil will ask the military to give up their "reserved" airspace in time

Again, I think it's the other way around. Civilian aircraft have
access
by default even to areas that on maps are designated for military
operations. The military notifies the FAA when an actual operation
in such an area is scheduled so that a NOTAM can be issued.
But -- correct me if I'm wrong -- typically a TFR will not be issued.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

[BT]

"Charles Packer" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 16, 9:09 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>> air space is under civil authority
>> air space is divided up with various users, primarily military
>> the civil will ask the military to give up their "reserved" airspace in
>> time
>
> Again, I think it's the other way around. Civilian aircraft have
> access
> by default even to areas that on maps are designated for military
> operations. The military notifies the FAA when an actual operation
> in such an area is scheduled so that a NOTAM can be issued.
> But -- correct me if I'm wrong -- typically a TFR will not be issued.
>
> --
> Charles Packer

Restricted and Warning areas are HOT by default, times are published.
Military does not have to coordinate when as long as they are in the
published times.
Civil authority can ask the military to curtail activities when the airspace
is needed to route large volumes of civil traffic as when weather blocks the
normal routes.
Restricted areas could be for Army artillery fire, and not aircraft.
TFRs are not issued for R, W or MOA airspace, NOTAMS are issued when outside
of published times.

Civil (VFR) aircraft have access at all times except Prohibited areas, it
may not be smart to go in that airspace.
Restricted, Warning and MOA, sure.. go in if you want too.. it's your life,
and possibly the life of a military pilot you are risking.
I know violating certain Restricted airspace will be intercepted by chase
aircraft and met by federal agents when they land.
ATC will not clear civil IFR traffic into that airspace without coordination
with the military controlling agency.
The CIVIL ATC can close or pull back the R, W, MOA airspace at any time when
needed for civil use.

The Prez has opened up the offshore Warning areas to commercial traffic
(there are published airways in the warning areas) and made a public
announcement to the flying passengers, so it can appear that he is trying to
alleviate their travel delays.

BT

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:39:19 -0800, "BT" > wrote
in >:

>Restricted and Warning areas are HOT by default, times are published.
>Military does not have to coordinate when as long as they are in the
>published times.

There is a lot of information about military use of airspace within
the NAS here: http://www.seeandavoid.org/ . You can turn-on the map
depiction of MOAs, Special Use Airspace, MTRs by checking the boxes on
the left side of the page to see the vast amount of military airspace.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>
> Restricted areas could be for Army artillery fire, and not aircraft.
>

That's not correct, Restricted Areas are also established for bombing and
gunnery ranges


>
> Civil (VFR) aircraft have access at all times except Prohibited areas, it
> may not be smart to go in that airspace.
> Restricted, Warning and MOA, sure.. go in if you want too.. it's your
> life, and possibly the life of a military pilot you are risking.
>

That's not correct, VFR aircraft can enter MOAs but not Restricted Areas.

[Cubdriver]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), Charles Packer
> wrote:

>"Normally, the FAA asks
>the Pentagon for use of offshore airspace
>on a day-by-day or hour-by-hour basis."
>What was he smoking?

It may be true, as you say, that airspace is under civilian control.
But the FAA did politely ask the military to release a couple of
routes in the Northeast (East?) over Thanksgiving, and the military
agreed. There is a plan to do the same over Christmas.

Also the military appears to have total control over all charted MOAs.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Ron Natalie]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
\
>
>> Civil (VFR) aircraft have access at all times except Prohibited areas, it
>> may not be smart to go in that airspace.
>> Restricted, Warning and MOA, sure.. go in if you want too.. it's your
>> life, and possibly the life of a military pilot you are risking.
>>
>
> That's not correct, VFR aircraft can enter MOAs but not Restricted Areas.
>
>
Correct, and be even more careful in Warning areas. These are in fact
areas that would have been Resticted areas but are outside where the
gov't has the authority to make such designation.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> \
> >
> >> Civil (VFR) aircraft have access at all times except Prohibited areas, it
> >> may not be smart to go in that airspace.
> >> Restricted, Warning and MOA, sure.. go in if you want too.. it's your
> >> life, and possibly the life of a military pilot you are risking.
> >>
> >
> > That's not correct, VFR aircraft can enter MOAs but not Restricted Areas.
> >
> >
> Correct, and be even more careful in Warning areas. These are in fact
> areas that would have been Resticted areas but are outside where the
> gov't has the authority to make such designation.

VFR aircraft *CAN* enter Restricted Areas, *IF* they can establish
communication that shows those areas to be "cold." Often those RAs are
"hot" only above or below certain altitudes. We have several in Florida
that are set up this way.

Sometimes it is difficult to find the appropriate frequencies to
establish whether an RA is "cold" or "hot".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
>
> VFR aircraft *CAN* enter Restricted Areas, *IF* they can establish
> communication that shows those areas to be "cold."
>

Aircraft can enter a cold Restricted Area without establishing
communications with anyone.

[Ron Natalie]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article >,
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
>> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> \
>>>> Civil (VFR) aircraft have access at all times except Prohibited areas, it
>>>> may not be smart to go in that airspace.
>>>> Restricted, Warning and MOA, sure.. go in if you want too.. it's your
>>>> life, and possibly the life of a military pilot you are risking.
>>>>
>>> That's not correct, VFR aircraft can enter MOAs but not Restricted Areas.
>>>
>>>
>> Correct, and be even more careful in Warning areas. These are in fact
>> areas that would have been Resticted areas but are outside where the
>> gov't has the authority to make such designation.
>
> VFR aircraft *CAN* enter Restricted Areas, *IF* they can establish
> communication that shows those areas to be "cold."

The post Steve was replying to said "at all times".