Rudder waggle

[toad]

Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
both ends.

To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !

On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
full spoilers out.

If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.

Todd Smith
3S

[[email protected]]

Good advice all around. Radio is a good first response in any case,
unless you're in a "kiting" situation, in which case the tow pilot
must release as fast as he can. If the glider is not kiting and the
tow plane can clear obstacles at the end of the runway, please try not
to act hastily. The advice to be calm on the radio is good. If you
cannot think of the glider's call sign (happened to me once), just say
"spoilers, spoilers, spoilers". That should get the message across.
Fred

[BT]

ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
signal.. at least in the USA

Rudder Wag in flight means... CHECK YOUR GLIDER.. something is not right..
SPOILERS are the first thing to check.
FAA-H-8083-13, page 7-2, and other SSA references

If you waggle the rudder to get the glider to check his spoilers, and he
releases, poor training on the glider pilots side.
If you really want him off tow because of a tow plane problem. I agree, a
Wing Rock Wave Off, if I as tow have time. If I as tow do not have time, his
first clue may be a puff of smoke from my engine and the rope coming toward
him. I will not waste time for a wing rock and time for him to figure out
what I want.

I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
get a word in. Rudder waggle.

BT

"toad" > wrote in message
...
> Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
> have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
> glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
> both ends.
>
> To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
> TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
> disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
> that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
> signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !
>
> On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
> release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
> going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
> glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
> full spoilers out.
>
> If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
> glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
> he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S
>

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

BT wrote:
> ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
> signal.. at least in the USA

Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if
you like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

BT wrote:

>
> I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
> get a word in.

Is this a matter of politeness - not wanting to interrupt another pilot?
If it's a safety issue, I think the towpilot should just start
transmitting. I'd expect the pilot you are towing would be able hear
you, even it another pilot is talking. You are less than 200 feet from
the glider, and the other pilot is much farther away, so your radio
should overpower him. Or doesn't it work out that way?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[J a c k[_2_]]

Marc Ramsey wrote:


> You can complain about training if you like,
> but I bet the majority of US pilots will
> nonetheless release immediately if you waggle
> the rudder at them....


In which case complaints about training and/or preparation on the part
of the glider pilot are definitely in order. When did we start blaming
tow pilots for glider pilots' mistakes?

It sounds like the best way to reduce the number of rudder-signal
miscues would be to include them in the pre-flight briefing, and not to
refrain from using them simply because we have lost confidence in our
own training establishment.


Jack

[BT]

You may over power and he might hear you.. he may just get a loud squeal..

BT

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:0r%%i.5677$B21.130@trndny07...
> BT wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
>> get a word in.
>
> Is this a matter of politeness - not wanting to interrupt another pilot?
> If it's a safety issue, I think the towpilot should just start
> transmitting. I'd expect the pilot you are towing would be able hear you,
> even it another pilot is talking. You are less than 200 feet from the
> glider, and the other pilot is much farther away, so your radio should
> overpower him. Or doesn't it work out that way?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[BT]

training and flight reviews.. do you review signals in-flight as part of
your flight review?

Do not blame the tow pilot if the glider pilot does not know the signals.
The tow pilot will not learn a different signal for every pilot.
That is why we have "standards".

Scenario #1.. instructor coordinates with tow pilot.. at 400 ft, give me a
rudder waggle, dependent on the airfield, this should be high enough to
allow for a safe landing back on the airfield
so at 400ft.. the tow pilot gives the requested signal.. and the glider
pilot releases..

The instructor now has a reason to not endorse the completion of the flight
review, per 61.56
and to request the pilot receive additional training in the "standard
soaring signals" to complete his 61.56 requirements.

Scenario #2.. a slow climb in progress.. tow pilot notices the spoilers are
open and calls the glider..
no response... another call.. no response.. other traffic on the radio.. or
the glider pilot has his radio volume set to low
to the tow pilot "resorts to the standard signal" and waves his rudder...
yes.. from this location the glider could make a safe recovery to the
airfield if he "forgets and releases"
but the glider pilot releases,, does not realize his spoilers are open.. and
lands short of the airfield.

BT
CFIG and Tow Pilot

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
> BT wrote:
>> ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
>> signal.. at least in the USA
>
> Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
> places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
> innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if you
> like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
> immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...
>
> Marc

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.

The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
perfectly, it's their own darn fault...

Marc

BT wrote:
> training and flight reviews.. do you review signals in-flight as part of
> your flight review?
>
> Do not blame the tow pilot if the glider pilot does not know the signals.
> The tow pilot will not learn a different signal for every pilot.
> That is why we have "standards".
>
> Scenario #1.. instructor coordinates with tow pilot.. at 400 ft, give me a
> rudder waggle, dependent on the airfield, this should be high enough to
> allow for a safe landing back on the airfield
> so at 400ft.. the tow pilot gives the requested signal.. and the glider
> pilot releases..
>
> The instructor now has a reason to not endorse the completion of the flight
> review, per 61.56
> and to request the pilot receive additional training in the "standard
> soaring signals" to complete his 61.56 requirements.
>
> Scenario #2.. a slow climb in progress.. tow pilot notices the spoilers are
> open and calls the glider..
> no response... another call.. no response.. other traffic on the radio.. or
> the glider pilot has his radio volume set to low
> to the tow pilot "resorts to the standard signal" and waves his rudder...
> yes.. from this location the glider could make a safe recovery to the
> airfield if he "forgets and releases"
> but the glider pilot releases,, does not realize his spoilers are open.. and
> lands short of the airfield.
>
> BT
> CFIG and Tow Pilot
>
> "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> BT wrote:
>>> ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
>>> signal.. at least in the USA
>> Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
>> places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
>> innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if you
>> like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
>> immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...
>>
>> Marc
>
>

[toad]

On Nov 18, 8:25 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
> It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
> anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
> that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
> tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.
>
> The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
> do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
> underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
> perfectly, it's their own darn fault...
>
> Marc
>

Marc,

I suggest that you do whatever you need to, and retrain yourself that
if you see a signal from the tow pilot, you will WAIT and think to
yourself, "Is that a wave-off or a waggle ?" The wave off is not a
signal for "you need to release in 1 second". That signal is the tow
pilot pulling HIS release.

Todd Smith
3S

[Vaughn Simon]

"toad" > wrote in message
...
> The wave off is not a
> signal for "you need to release in 1 second". That signal is the tow
> pilot pulling HIS release.

Sorry, I disagree. The wave off is a command. It means "release now".
Think of it as a pact with your tow pilot. Ten seconds is an eternity when you
are only a few feet from the ground and things are rapidly going to hell. When
you get the wave off, release now and ask questions later.

We have that signal to keep our tow pilots alive so we can get another tow
the next time we come out to fly. Yes, in a perfect world the tow pilot will
hand you the rope if he (she) has a problem, but there are situations where that
is not possible. Be kind to your tow pilot.

Vaughn

[jeplane]

In any case, since you can't trust the glider pilot to correctly
interpret this signal, the policy to train tow pilots would be to NOT
give any signals below 200 feet.
Or back to what Todd Smith was saying. Nothing wrong with it.

Richard
Phoenix AZ

[BT]

Let's rephrase that..
Let's not do any "training" signals below 200ft
And if we are climbing safely and I cannot reach you on a radio, wait until
at least 200ft for the rudder waggle.
But if I'm below 200ft with a problem.. can't climb, got no power, and the
glider is the problem.. It's for real and you'll get the signal.

If I've got the problem, bad motor, flight control issue and I can't get you
to a safe altitude, you'll see the rope go slack.
I always hate the wing rock.. if I'm low and loosing power.. that's the last
thing I want to do.

BT


"jeplane" > wrote in message
...
> In any case, since you can't trust the glider pilot to correctly
> interpret this signal, the policy to train tow pilots would be to NOT
> give any signals below 200 feet.
> Or back to what Todd Smith was saying. Nothing wrong with it.
>
> Richard
> Phoenix AZ

[309]

On Nov 18, 10:12 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> Let's rephrase that..
> Let's not do any "training" signals below 200ft
> And if we are climbing safely and I cannot reach you on a radio, wait until
> at least 200ft for the rudder waggle.
> But if I'm below 200ft with a problem.. can't climb, got no power, and the
> glider is the problem.. It's for real and you'll get the signal.
>
> If I've got the problem, bad motor, flight control issue and I can't get you
> to a safe altitude, you'll see the rope go slack.
> I always hate the wing rock.. if I'm low and loosing power.. that's the last
> thing I want to do.
>

Yeah! What he said!

Pete
#309
"Former" Tow Pilot
Tugs: Most dangerous planes I've flown thanks to maintenance,
failures and STUDENT GLIDER PILOTS.

[J a c k[_2_]]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
> It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
> anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
> that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
> tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.
>
> The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
> do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
> underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
> perfectly, it's their own darn fault....


I think that is not the point at all, Marc. Any of us can make a
mistake. I understand the human propensity to see what one expects to
see. I have made similar errors, of course. But if many glider pilots
can be expected to get the signals wrong--to react to what they expect
rather than what they actually see--then the sport needs better
training/checking/briefing right across the board.

And yes, when I screw up that which you do so perfectly it is not your
fault, but we have arrived at a common simple solution for the
mis-configuration signal. If the rudder-waggle signal is being
misinterpreted, what signal would you suggest we use to replace it?
Would using no signal be better? Would a radio call be better, requiring
that radio installation be mandatory in all gliders and that a radio
check be accomplished prior to every takeoff? Another F-ing American
Rule? Just what would be a more elegant solution than the simple
rudder-waggle founded upon responsible and regular
training/checking/briefing of glider communication techniques?

The kind of error that we are talking about comes from a lack of
experience, familiarity, currency--call it what you will. If we are so
nervous in the aircraft that we are spring-loaded to do something even
if it's wrong, then does that tendency show up only with regard to the
glider-configuration warning signal, or is it perhaps also likely to
show up in any and every phase of the operation, from assembly to
preflight to launch and right through the flight and on to disassembly?
Can we actually be trusted anywhere near these deadly glider-things?

If you believe that you or the pilots with whom you fly are likely to
react improperly to the rudder-waggle signal, what have you been doing
about the problem, and what results have you seen?


Jack

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

J a c k wrote:
> I think that is not the point at all, Marc. Any of us can make a
> mistake. I understand the human propensity to see what one expects to
> see. I have made similar errors, of course. But if many glider pilots
> can be expected to get the signals wrong--to react to what they expect
> rather than what they actually see--then the sport needs better
> training/checking/briefing right across the board.

At some point one has to accept the fact that there is going to be a
non-zero error rate, as glider clubs aren't military organizations.
They can't set standards which are higher than the members are willing
to accept.

> And yes, when I screw up that which you do so perfectly it is not your
> fault, but we have arrived at a common simple solution for the
> mis-configuration signal. If the rudder-waggle signal is being
> misinterpreted, what signal would you suggest we use to replace it?
> Would using no signal be better? Would a radio call be better, requiring
> that radio installation be mandatory in all gliders and that a radio
> check be accomplished prior to every takeoff? Another F-ing American
> Rule? Just what would be a more elegant solution than the simple
> rudder-waggle founded upon responsible and regular
> training/checking/briefing of glider communication techniques?

The answer is already known. Tow pilots, please don't use the rudder
wag unless the glider is in a safe position to land if the pilot
releases immediately. If the problem is not immediately affecting the
safety of the tow, hold off using the signal until safe. If there is a
safety issue, the rudder wag is inappropriate, and the wave off should
be used instead.

> The kind of error that we are talking about comes from a lack of
> experience, familiarity, currency--call it what you will. If we are so
> nervous in the aircraft that we are spring-loaded to do something even
> if it's wrong, then does that tendency show up only with regard to the
> glider-configuration warning signal, or is it perhaps also likely to
> show up in any and every phase of the operation, from assembly to
> preflight to launch and right through the flight and on to disassembly?
> Can we actually be trusted anywhere near these deadly glider-things?

Just like control hookups. If I knew I was perfect and always did my
checklist and a thorough positive check, I'd be perfectly safe with
manual hookups. Since I know I'm not perfect, and have known enough
otherwise diligent people who failed to be perfect about this, I limit
my glider choices to those with automatic hookups.

I am not a professional pilot. I do not fly enough to maintain the
familiarity and currency of a professional pilot. Perhaps I shouldn't
be flying anything, but that is true of enough pilots that you'd
probably decimate the sport if you set standards that high.

> If you believe that you or the pilots with whom you fly are likely to
> react improperly to the rudder-waggle signal, what have you been doing
> about the problem, and what results have you seen?

If that was the only problem with pilots, we'd be in very good shape...

Marc

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, J a c k
> writes
>Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>
> > You can complain about training if you like,
> > but I bet the majority of US pilots will
> > nonetheless release immediately if you waggle
> > the rudder at them....
>
>
>In which case complaints about training and/or preparation on the part
>of the glider pilot are definitely in order. When did we start blaming
>tow pilots for glider pilots' mistakes?
>
>It sounds like the best way to reduce the number of rudder-signal
>miscues would be to include them in the pre-flight briefing, and not to
>refrain from using them simply because we have lost confidence in our
>own training establishment.
>
>
>Jack
>
>
At our club the then chief flying instructor asked me, as tuggie, to do
a rudder waggle when he was doing annual revalidations. Three out of the
four pilots doing their annual checks released. That was two years ago.

These days, when you do your annual, you are asked about the signals
before you go.

One of the signals is that the glider "flies out to the left as far as
possible and rocks the wings laterally" The meaning is that the glider
cant let the rope go.

What happens then? We never practice descending on tow. I asked our
resident instructor, he said the tug should continue climbing and
position the glider in a good place to make a safe landing.

I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?

--
Mike Lindsay

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

The book says that we are going to land on tow (and we practize for that).

But then, I haven't heared of such a case in the last 27 years...

Bert

"Mike Lindsay" > wrote in message
...
>>
> I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?
>
> --
> Mike Lindsay

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

SNIP / QUOTE: ". . . you'd probably decimate the sport if you set
standards that high."

Does "you" mean "us" - the glider pilots, instructors and towpilots,
or does "you" mean allowing the FAA to increase the standards for us,
and do it "their" way?

[JJ Sinclair]

I think we are missing the point here, guys. Sure we should know the
signals, but we don't. Why? Because we almost never use them and only
refresh ourselves every couple of years when its biannual time. What
DO we use? We use the radio, every flight. I believe the radio should
be the primary method to communicate with the tow
piolt.............................you can't misinterpret a call to
CLOSE YOUR SPOILERS. What problems can we have with using the radio?
Dead battery..........Volume not turned up............Squelch not
set.............Wrong frequency................Othere on the freq.
How can we be sure that radio communications will work when
needed?.....................................By always doing a com-
check, just before starting every tow.
JJ

PS; If others are garbage-mouthing the frequence...............Shout
SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS and keep shouting it until the guy gets
the message and he will just as soon as the garbage-mouth takes a
breath. This will work, if you have performed a com-check!

[Cats]

On Nov 19, 9:27 am, Mike Lindsay > wrote:
<snip>
> At our club the then chief flying instructor asked me, as tuggie, to do
> a rudder waggle when he was doing annual revalidations. Three out of the
> four pilots doing their annual checks released. That was two years ago.
>
> These days, when you do your annual, you are asked about the signals
> before you go.
>
> One of the signals is that the glider "flies out to the left as far as
> possible and rocks the wings laterally" The meaning is that the glider
> cant let the rope go.
>
> What happens then?

In my recent experience of pracsing giving the signal, absolutely
nothing most of the time. The same when when the instructor flew out
to the left and gave the signal.


> We never practice descending on tow.

I have. I was surprised how easy it was.


> I asked our
> resident instructor, he said the tug should continue climbing and
> position the glider in a good place to make a safe landing.
>
> I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?

I was told that the tug takes you back to where you can safely get
back to the field (quite possibly descending en-route), and releases
you. You land normally but using a reference point well inside the
field because of the tow rope dangling from the glider.

[jeplane]

> I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?
Mike Lindsay

In France, they taught us to open the airbrakes full, and then go
below the tow plane wake. Sit there until the tow plane brings you
back to the runway. Works like a charm, and is actually part of the
curriculum to get your license over there....

Richard
Phoenix, AZ

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> SNIP / QUOTE: ". . . you'd probably decimate the sport if you set
> standards that high."
>
> Does "you" mean "us" - the glider pilots, instructors and towpilots,
> or does "you" mean allowing the FAA to increase the standards for us,
> and do it "their" way?

Neither. Aim at perfection, but if you see a standard procedure that
repeatedly results in mistakes, perhaps it is time to consider a change.

Marc

[Nyal Williams]

1. Back over the airport, try one last time to release
WITH SLACK IN THE ROPE. It worked for me when I was
about to land while being towed.

2. How many students in the US learn the signals only
from a book, and how many actually practice them?
We tell the tow pilot to give us the rudder waggle
at 1000ft agl and the wave off at the top of the tow.
Frequent practice is the answer.

At 15:12 19 November 2007, Cats wrote:
>
>
>I was told that the tug takes you back to where you
>can safely get
>back to the field (quite possibly descending en-route),
>and releases
>you. You land normally but using a reference point
>well inside the
>field because of the tow rope dangling from the glider.
>
>

[CLewis95]

To help students (and flight review pilots) to remember the difference
between Wing-Rock and Rudder-Wag I tell them to think of the Rudder-
Wag as a slap-in-the-face "wake-up" or "snap-out-of-it" signal. As in
"Wake up and check your glider". Visualizing the towpilot coming back
to the glider and slapping you to attention.

So far all pilots have liked this memory tool, but I don't know if it
has ever helped any of them.

Curt - 95
CFIG

On Nov 18, 12:00 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
> signal.. at least in the USA
>
> Rudder Wag in flight means... CHECK YOUR GLIDER.. something is not right..
> SPOILERS are the first thing to check.
> FAA-H-8083-13, page 7-2, and other SSA references
>

[5Z]

On Nov 18, 7:32 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> Sorry, I disagree. The wave off is a command. It means "release now".
> Think of it as a pact with your tow pilot. Ten seconds is an eternity when you
> are only a few feet from the ground and things are rapidly going to hell. When
> you get the wave off, release now and ask questions later.

Sorry, I disagree. Tow pilot pulling the release is "get off NOW".
Wing rock is "if you don't release soon, you get to bring the rope
home, or buy a new one if you lose it."

The meaning of "soon" depends on the situation, and is under control
of the tow pilot, as long as his release works. We all prefer that
the delay be minimal, but if the tow pilot can't handle a couple
seconds delay, then why bother rocking his wings in the first place?
There is no danger to the glider (OK, OK, there is always a nonzero
chance something could go wrong in any situation) if the rope is
released by the towplane, so the only time the tow pilot should rock
the wings is if he doesn't mind waiting a few moments.

-Tom

[FreeFlight107]

On Nov 19, 12:15 pm, CLewis95 > wrote:
> To help students (and flight review pilots) to remember the difference
> between Wing-Rock and Rudder-Wag I tell them to think of the Rudder-
> Wag as a slap-in-the-face "wake-up" or "snap-out-of-it" signal. As in
> "Wake up and check your glider". Visualizing the towpilot coming back
> to the glider and slapping you to attention.
>
> So far all pilots have liked this memory tool, but I don't know if it
> has ever helped any of them.
>
> Curt - 95
> CFIG
>
Curt,

Love your memory jogger, I'll never forget that the Rudder Slaps You
in the Face to wake you up and pay attention.

BTW, thanks to all the tuggies for their insights, I would never have
thought of many of them.

[Vaughn Simon]

"5Z" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 18, 7:32 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
> wrote:
>> Sorry, I disagree. The wave off is a command. It means "release now".
>> Think of it as a pact with your tow pilot. Ten seconds is an eternity when
>> you
>> are only a few feet from the ground and things are rapidly going to hell.
>> When
>> you get the wave off, release now and ask questions later.
>
> Sorry, I disagree. Tow pilot pulling the release is "get off NOW".
> Wing rock is "if you don't release soon, you get to bring the rope
> home, or buy a new one if you lose it."
>
Then we will have to politely agree to disagree. I have heard of too many
cases where tow plane releases failed to release, sometimes leading to loss of
the tow plane or much worse. I have also heard of situations where a tuggy
could not immediately reach the release. I have always been taught (and
taught) that the wave-off is a command. You when you get a wave-off, you
immediately release and then discuss things on the ground.

Let's keep our tuggies alive.

Vaughn

[[email protected]]

On Nov 19, 12:15 pm, CLewis95 > wrote:
> To help students (and flight review pilots) to remember the difference
> between Wing-Rock and Rudder-Wag I tell them to think of the Rudder-
> Wag as a slap-in-the-face "wake-up" or "snap-out-of-it" signal. As in
> "Wake up and check your glider". Visualizing the towpilot coming back
> to the glider and slapping you to attention.
>
> So far all pilots have liked this memory tool, but I don't know if it
> has ever helped any of them.
>
> Curt - 95
> CFIG
>
> On Nov 18, 12:00 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
> > signal.. at least in the USA
>
> > Rudder Wag in flight means... CHECK YOUR GLIDER.. something is not right..
> > SPOILERS are the first thing to check.
> > FAA-H-8083-13, page 7-2, and other SSA references- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Slap in the face.....

I like it!

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

I second that.

Bert

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
> Then we will have to politely agree to disagree. I have heard of too
> many cases where tow plane releases failed to release, sometimes leading
> to loss of the tow plane or much worse. I have also heard of situations
> where a tuggy could not immediately reach the release. I have always
> been taught (and taught) that the wave-off is a command. You when you get
> a wave-off, you immediately release and then discuss things on the ground.
>
> Let's keep our tuggies alive.
>
> Vaughn
>

[5Z]

On Nov 19, 5:24 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> Then we will have to politely agree to disagree. I have heard of too many
> cases where tow plane releases failed to release, sometimes leading to loss of
> the tow plane or much worse. I have also heard of situations where a tuggy
> could not immediately reach the release. I have always been taught (and
> taught) that the wave-off is a command. You when you get a wave-off, you
> immediately release and then discuss things on the ground.

If the towplane release fails, then I argue the tow pilot will dive,
then perhaps give the wave off command. I can't imagine the tow pilot
giving a wave-off in an IMMEDIATE danger situation, as it has likely
been caused by the glider in the first place (kiting, for example).

I am also not advocating NOT RELEASING. What I am advocating is a
think before reacting attitude. If the glider pilot is taught to take
a MOMENT to consider the wing rock, then a MOMENT will also be taken
when faced with the rudder waggle. This MOMENT is used to decide
whether to release because the tug is in trouble or to look over the
glider first. Once the MOMENT has passed, if I realize the tug is
indeed rocking the wings, I WILL RELEASE. But if the tow pilot is
indeed in trouble, and the release has failed, I seriously doubt there
will be time for a waggle, the tow pilot will be diving to get
airspeed, and to get landed ASAP.

So, if you advocate IMMEDIATELY releasing, then we still disagree, I
refuse to do anything IMMEDIATELY without taking a MOMENT to consider
the consequences. There are too many automobile accidents caused by
someone swerving to avoid a minor mishap only to create a nasty
pileup, for example.

> Let's keep our tuggies alive.

Absolutely! I pay attention to the tow plane, and will likely see the
problem develop before I see the wing wag, or might even give the TP a
call if I see smoke or parts being shed.

-Tom

[BT]

ahh.. I think the tow pilot will release his end.. with you over head the
airport and in a position taht if the rope back releases it will not harm
anything on the ground
if neither can release.. then consider landing on tow
BT

"Bert Willing" > wrote in message
...
> The book says that we are going to land on tow (and we practize for that).
>
> But then, I haven't heared of such a case in the last 27 years...
>
> Bert
>
> "Mike Lindsay" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?
>>
>> --
>> Mike Lindsay
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Nov 18, 7:06 am, toad > wrote:
> Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
> have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
> glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
> both ends.
>
> To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
> TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
> disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
> that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
> signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !
>
> On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
> release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
> going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
> glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
> full spoilers out.
>
> If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
> glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
> he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S

When you experience enough wave offs, you learn the signal. Years ago,
when flying at 29 Palms behind what I think was a 170, our tows only
went as high as the engine oil temperature would allow. Just wait for
the wings to rock and then release.

A comment regarding radios - using a radio would be nice but the
towplanes where I fly either don't have a radio or do not have them
turned on. In fact, I have never talked to a towpilot by radio in over
30 years of soaring!
Steve

[Shawn[_4_]]

wrote:
> On Nov 18, 7:06 am, toad > wrote:
>> Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
>> have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
>> glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
>> both ends.
>>
>> To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
>> TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
>> disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
>> that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
>> signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !
>>
>> On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
>> release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
>> going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
>> glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
>> full spoilers out.
>>
>> If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
>> glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
>> he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.
>>
>> Todd Smith
>> 3S
>
> When you experience enough wave offs, you learn the signal. Years ago,
> when flying at 29 Palms behind what I think was a 170, our tows only
> went as high as the engine oil temperature would allow. Just wait for
> the wings to rock and then release.



> A comment regarding radios - using a radio would be nice but the
> towplanes where I fly either don't have a radio or do not have them
> turned on. In fact, I have never talked to a towpilot by radio in over
> 30 years of soaring!

That would never fly (ahem) with the glider pilots at Boulder. Just ask
anyone in radio range ;-)

Typical Boulder radio communication between Tuggie and Tugger:

"Could you go just a little to the north?"
"This cloud or the one that looks like a horse?"
"The Quarter horse or the Thoroughbred?"
"Oh, I see. I think it's an Arabian, is that really a Quarter horse?"
"No I used to breed Quarters..."

We got a radio frequency all our own recently :-)


Shawn