midair collision over Tacoma...none dead.

[Gatt]

http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html

TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of them
with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near Tacoma.

Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer says the other
plane with two people on board landed at Thun Field in Puyallup.

A Tacoma police boat and a privately-owned boat picked up the two people
from the bay and took them to shore. Both people from the plane were loaded
into a waiting ambulance and transported to a hospital, but a Tacoma Fire
Department spokesman said both were expected to survive.

Officials at Thun Field said the aircraft there landed with "minimal damage"
and no one on board was seriously injured.

The circumstances of the crash were not immediately known.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 20, 3:04 pm, "Gatt" > wrote:
> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>
> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of them
> with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near Tacoma.
>
> Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer says the other
> plane with two people on board landed at Thun Field in Puyallup.
>
> A Tacoma police boat and a privately-owned boat picked up the two people
> from the bay and took them to shore. Both people from the plane were loaded
> into a waiting ambulance and transported to a hospital, but a Tacoma Fire
> Department spokesman said both were expected to survive.
>
> Officials at Thun Field said the aircraft there landed with "minimal damage"
> and no one on board was seriously injured.
>
> The circumstances of the crash were not immediately known.

Thankfully they all are going to be ok.........

[Jim Logajan]

"Gatt" > wrote:
>
> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>
> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of
> them with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near
> Tacoma.

Here's a more recent story:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html

[Gatt]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .

> Here's a more recent story:
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html

"The pilot of the single-engine Cessna that ditched in Commencement Bay flew
out of a downward spiral and made a soft landing on the water."

That guy's a stallion.

Mid-air collision, downward spiral recovery and ditching. That's a lot of
action for a log-book entry. "How did your flight go, dear?"

-c

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:26:57 -0000, Jim Logajan >
wrote in >:

>"Gatt" > wrote:
>>
>> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>>
>> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of
>> them with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near
>> Tacoma.
>
>Here's a more recent story:
>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html


The pilot of the plane that went down in Commencement Bay was
taking his mother to Gig Harbor for lunch when the collision
occurred shortly after 12:30 p.m. over the bay that sits west of
Tacoma's port, Williams said.

Both were taken to local hospitals after being fished out of the
water. The woman, who is in her early 70s, was suffering from mild
hypothermia, Williams said.

After landing, the man and woman climbed out of the plane and hung
on until it started sinking. Williams said the plane sank in 400
feet of water less than a mile off the shore of Tacoma's Ruston
Way.

I wonder what the water temperature is up there in late November?

[Matt W. Barrow]

"Gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> Here's a more recent story:
>> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html
>
> "The pilot of the single-engine Cessna that ditched in Commencement Bay
> flew out of a downward spiral and made a soft landing on the water."
>
> That guy's a stallion.
>
> Mid-air collision, downward spiral recovery and ditching. That's a lot of
> action for a log-book entry. "How did your flight go, dear?"
>
"As well as could be expected, hon!"

[RL Anderson]

Gatt wrote:
> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>
> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of them
> with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near Tacoma.
>
> Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer says the other
> plane with two people on board landed at Thun Field in Puyallup.
>
> A Tacoma police boat and a privately-owned boat picked up the two people
> from the bay and took them to shore. Both people from the plane were loaded
> into a waiting ambulance and transported to a hospital, but a Tacoma Fire
> Department spokesman said both were expected to survive.
>
> Officials at Thun Field said the aircraft there landed with "minimal damage"
> and no one on board was seriously injured.
>
> The circumstances of the crash were not immediately known.
>
>

I've seen the 182 involved in this event. It is an older "straight
tail" model, I would guess from the mid to late 50s. The observable
damage is:

- The front of the right (Pax Side) wheel pant was broken off. The
pants on this airplane appear to be of a newer Cessna design.
- There is quite a noticeable dent just beneath the Pax Side door.
- As the plane sits on the ramp, it appears to be slightly "Right Wing
Low". It's possible that either the gear leg was "tweaked", or some
damage may have been done to the gear leg mounting, or both.

I would guess that the 182 may be there a while until the FAA and/or
NTSB complete their work. The pilot appeared to be rattled, but
otherwise OK. It was really great to hear that the occupants of the
other plane survived.

Rick
KPLU

[RL Anderson]

RL Anderson wrote:

[Snip]

Here is some more data.

> ************************************************** ******************************
> ** Report created 11/21/2007 Record 1 **
> ************************************************** ******************************
>
> IDENTIFICATION
> Regis#: 6147B Make/Model: C182 Description: 182, Skylane
> Date: 11/20/2007 Time: 2035
>
> Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: Y Missing: N
> Damage: Unknown
>
> LOCATION
> City: TACOMA State: WA Country: US
>
> DESCRIPTION
> N6147B, A CESSNA 182 AIRCRAFT, COLLIDED WITH N707BS, A CHAMPION 7GCBC
> AIRCRAFT, MIDAIR. N6147B FORCE LANDED AT PIERCE COUNTY AIRPORT, N707BS
> CRASHED INTO COMMENCEMENT BAY AND ITS TWO PERSONS WERE RECOVERED FROM THE
> WATER, TACOMA, WA
>
> INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
> # Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
> # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
> # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
>
> WEATHER: METAR KTIW 201953Z VRB06KT 10SM SCT013 SCT019 BKN040 06/03 A3049
>
> OTHER DATA
> Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
>
>
> FAA FSDO: SEATTLE, WA (NM01) Entry date: 11/21/2007
>

Rick
KPLU

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-11-20 17:18:12 -0800, Larry Dighera > said:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:26:57 -0000, Jim Logajan >
> wrote in >:
>
>> "Gatt" > wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>>>
>>> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of
>>> them with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near
>>> Tacoma.
>>
>> Here's a more recent story:
>> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html
>
>
> The pilot of the plane that went down in Commencement Bay was
> taking his mother to Gig Harbor for lunch when the collision
> occurred shortly after 12:30 p.m. over the bay that sits west of
> Tacoma's port, Williams said.
>
> Both were taken to local hospitals after being fished out of the
> water. The woman, who is in her early 70s, was suffering from mild
> hypothermia, Williams said.
>
> After landing, the man and woman climbed out of the plane and hung
> on until it started sinking. Williams said the plane sank in 400
> feet of water less than a mile off the shore of Tacoma's Ruston
> Way.
>
> I wonder what the water temperature is up there in late November?

Approximately 38-40 degrees. All of Puget Sound is very cold all year
round. The OAT at the time of the accident was about 43 degrees.

I was flying in the area at the time, but did not hear of it until
after we returned.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-11-20 17:18:12 -0800, Larry Dighera > said:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:26:57 -0000, Jim Logajan >
> wrote in >:
>
>> "Gatt" > wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>>>
>>> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of
>>> them with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near
>>> Tacoma.
>>
>> Here's a more recent story:
>> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html
>
>
> The pilot of the plane that went down in Commencement Bay was
> taking his mother to Gig Harbor for lunch when the collision
> occurred shortly after 12:30 p.m. over the bay that sits west of
> Tacoma's port, Williams said.
>
> Both were taken to local hospitals after being fished out of the
> water. The woman, who is in her early 70s, was suffering from mild
> hypothermia, Williams said.
>
> After landing, the man and woman climbed out of the plane and hung
> on until it started sinking. Williams said the plane sank in 400
> feet of water less than a mile off the shore of Tacoma's Ruston
> Way.
>
> I wonder what the water temperature is up there in late November?

Apparently it was 44 degrees. Warmer than I expected.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Newps]

A woman I work with is very good friends with the pilot of the aircraft
that ended up in the water. What basically happened is that the 182 ran
over this aircraft, tearing the vertical tail off the aircraft. He said
next thing I know I am spinning. Every rotation of the spin makes a
bigger and bigger arc in the sky due to his inputs. Finally he can
basically get it right side up and with power and aileron he stalls it
into the water. Plane floats a while before sinking. After he gets his
wife out of the plane he notices missing tail. Both spend minimal time
at hospital. Meanwhile 182 jockey is all over the news saying..."That
other aircraft came out of nowhere." NTSB will most likely fault both
pilots for not seeing and avoiding.





Gatt wrote:
> http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>
> TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of them
> with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near Tacoma.
>
> Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer says the other
> plane with two people on board landed at Thun Field in Puyallup.
>
> A Tacoma police boat and a privately-owned boat picked up the two people
> from the bay and took them to shore. Both people from the plane were loaded
> into a waiting ambulance and transported to a hospital, but a Tacoma Fire
> Department spokesman said both were expected to survive.
>
> Officials at Thun Field said the aircraft there landed with "minimal damage"
> and no one on board was seriously injured.
>
> The circumstances of the crash were not immediately known.
>
>

[William Hung]

On Nov 20, 8:13 pm, "Gatt" > wrote:
> "Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
>
> .. .
>
> > Here's a more recent story:
> >http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_mid_air_collision.html
>
> "The pilot of the single-engine Cessna that ditched in Commencement Bay flew
> out of a downward spiral and made a soft landing on the water."
>
> That guy's a stallion.
>
> Mid-air collision, downward spiral recovery and ditching. That's a lot of
> action for a log-book entry. "How did your flight go, dear?"
>
> -c

I suppose he wanted to impress his 70 yo passenger mom.

Wil

[William Hung]

On Nov 21, 11:25 pm, Newps > wrote:
> A woman I work with is very good friends with the pilot of the aircraft
> that ended up in the water. What basically happened is that the 182 ran
> over this aircraft, tearing the vertical tail off the aircraft. He said
> next thing I know I am spinning. Every rotation of the spin makes a
> bigger and bigger arc in the sky due to his inputs. Finally he can
> basically get it right side up and with power and aileron he stalls it
> into the water. Plane floats a while before sinking. After he gets his
> wife out of the plane he notices missing tail. Both spend minimal time
> at hospital. Meanwhile 182 jockey is all over the news saying..."That
> other aircraft came out of nowhere." NTSB will most likely fault both
> pilots for not seeing and avoiding.
>
>
>
> Gatt wrote:
> >http://www.katu.com/news/11655946.html
>
> > TACOMA, Wash. -- Two small planes have collided over Tacoma and one of them
> > with two people on board crashed into Commencement Bay near Tacoma.
>
> > Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer says the other
> > plane with two people on board landed at Thun Field in Puyallup.
>
> > A Tacoma police boat and a privately-owned boat picked up the two people
> > from the bay and took them to shore. Both people from the plane were loaded
> > into a waiting ambulance and transported to a hospital, but a Tacoma Fire
> > Department spokesman said both were expected to survive.
>
> > Officials at Thun Field said the aircraft there landed with "minimal damage"
> > and no one on board was seriously injured.
>
> > The circumstances of the crash were not immediately known.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wife? I read it was his 70 yo mother.

On a side note, this have been avoided if one or both of these planes
were low winged planes? What are the visibilitiy issues with high vs
low winged planes?

Wil

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-11-21 20:25:12 -0800, Newps > said:

> A woman I work with is very good friends with the pilot of the aircraft
> that ended up in the water. What basically happened is that the 182
> ran over this aircraft, tearing the vertical tail off the aircraft. He
> said next thing I know I am spinning. Every rotation of the spin makes
> a bigger and bigger arc in the sky due to his inputs. Finally he can
> basically get it right side up and with power and aileron he stalls it
> into the water. Plane floats a while before sinking. After he gets
> his wife out of the plane he notices missing tail. Both spend minimal
> time at hospital. Meanwhile 182 jockey is all over the news
> saying..."That other aircraft came out of nowhere." NTSB will most
> likely fault both pilots for not seeing and avoiding.

Yeah, we wouldn't want the NTSB faulting the real culprit there, would
we? This area has been a chamber of horrors for a long time. Near
misses are very common there. The FAA has so balkanized the airspace
that air safety has been severely compromised, just as the AOPA
predicted when the current airspace arrangement was proposed decades
ago.

What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit their
airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location and
direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
and avoid other aircraft.

Some pilots have made little lists of all the frequencies needed in the
area, but these lists always seem to be missing one critical frequency
or another. So everyone drops down to 1000' and tries to navigate a
narrow corridor that runs through a maze of radio towers and along the
freeway, trying to get from one side of Seattle to the other without
talking to anybody.

Aggravating the situation is that all these towers are busy and they do
not necessarily reply very quickly to aircraft trying to contact them,
so trying to avoid the crowded I-5 corridor quickly becomes an exercise
in frustration. It is not at all uncommon for SeaTac to make you wait
20 minutes or more before transiting the class B airspace. I have seen
aircraft circling over Vashon Island for ten minutes or more as they
wait for Boeing Field to respond to their calls -- another good place
for mid-airs while everyone waits their turn.

Aircraft transiting Tacoma Narrows' airspace are usually restricted to
1500 feet, just 200 feet above the traffic pattern, and they often have
to switch frequencies between SeaTac, McChord, Seattle Approach, and
Tacoma Tower. It is not always clear who you are supposed to be talking
to, either. You might be in Tacoma's airspace, but they might have you
call SeaTac or Approach, claiming that they have some sort of LOA
giving them control of their airspace, or vice versa.

So the FAA has basically created a huge wall, 40 miles long and 10,000
feet high, that is inaccessible to GA, but the wall has a tiny hole in
it. And then they wonder why there are so many incidents there at that
hole. It is like cramming a sixteen lane freeway down to a single lane
and then blaming "bad drivers" for all the accidents and congestion
there. But then again, Washington's Department of Transportation is
entirely capable of pulling stunts like that, so maybe they are not so
different from the FAA after all.

The FAA's attempts to make us safe have ended up endangering thousands
of people every day. So, yeah, blame the pilots.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:04:47 -0800, C J Campbell
> wrote in
<2007112207044775249-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>:

>What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
>through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
>class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
>or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit their
>airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
>proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
>and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location and
>direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
>and avoid other aircraft.

Or you could request Radar Traffic Advisory Service, and let ATC
coordinate the transitions.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Yeah, we wouldn't want the NTSB faulting the real culprit there, would
> we? This area has been a chamber of horrors for a long time. Near
> misses are very common there. The FAA has so balkanized the airspace
> that air safety has been severely compromised, just as the AOPA
> predicted when the current airspace arrangement was proposed decades
> ago.
>
> What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
> through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
> class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
> or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit their
> airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
> proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
> and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location and
> direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
> and avoid other aircraft.
>
> Some pilots have made little lists of all the frequencies needed in the
> area, but these lists always seem to be missing one critical frequency
> or another. So everyone drops down to 1000' and tries to navigate a
> narrow corridor that runs through a maze of radio towers and along the
> freeway, trying to get from one side of Seattle to the other without
> talking to anybody.

It sounds like a mess, but why can't you just contact one frequency and
request flight following?

Or for that matter, why can't you just fly IFR?

Or just fly around the complex airspace to the extent possible.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> C J Campbell writes:
>
>> Yeah, we wouldn't want the NTSB faulting the real culprit there,
would
>> we? This area has been a chamber of horrors for a long time. Near
>> misses are very common there. The FAA has so balkanized the airspace
>> that air safety has been severely compromised, just as the AOPA
>> predicted when the current airspace arrangement was proposed decades
>> ago.
>>
>> What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
>> through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
>> class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
>> or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit
their
>> airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
>> proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
>> and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location
and
>> direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
>> and avoid other aircraft.
>>
>> Some pilots have made little lists of all the frequencies needed in
the
>> area, but these lists always seem to be missing one critical
frequency
>> or another. So everyone drops down to 1000' and tries to navigate a
>> narrow corridor that runs through a maze of radio towers and along
the
>> freeway, trying to get from one side of Seattle to the other without
>> talking to anybody.
>
> It sounds like a mess, but why can't you just contact one frequency
and
> request flight following?
>
> Or for that matter, why can't you just fly IFR?
>
> Or just fly around the complex airspace to the extent possible.


You're an idiot.

Bertie
>

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:51:32 +0100, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> It sounds like a mess, but why can't you just contact one frequency and
> request flight following?

Because they can't see the sailboats, whales, etc. I'm looking at/for. Besides,
note the earlier posting that says it takes ~15 minutes or so for the local ATC
to deign to notice anyone who calls up in that area.

> Or for that matter, why can't you just fly IFR?

Neither the plane nor myself are IFR certified, and in any case, it doesn't make
sense for a 45-minute sightseeing flight. Puget Sound is great in that contact
navigation is very easy due to the distinctive terrain, and if the weather's
VFR, everyone's going VFR. It's one of the curses of Commencement Bay, it's
such a distinctive feature that everyone routes through it.

> Or just fly around the complex airspace to the extent possible.

Take a look at the south end of the Sea-Tac Class B airspace. Eliminate the gap
in the Class B/D airspaces where Commencement Bay is, and imagine flying from
Auburn Municipal to Vashon Municipal. Either I have to fly ~25 miles north to
go around the north end of the Class B, or I've got to fly south of the Class D
airspaces for Tacoma Narrows, McChord AFB, Ft. Lewis AAF, and Olympia airport.
Not an insignificant jog in a ~80 knots airplane.

I once flew as passenger in a plane that departed Renton Airport IFR to fly
south. I couldn't believe how far around ATC routed us.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> Because they can't see the sailboats, whales, etc. I'm looking at/for.

I was just thinking that with flight following you'd only have to tune to one
frequency and then ATC would hand you off thereafter (?).

> Besides, note the earlier posting that says it takes ~15 minutes or
> so for the local ATC to deign to notice anyone who calls up in that area.

They don't answer at all, or they tell you to stand by, or what? Fifteen
minutes is an unacceptably long time.

> Take a look at the south end of the Sea-Tac Class B airspace. Eliminate the gap
> in the Class B/D airspaces where Commencement Bay is, and imagine flying from
> Auburn Municipal to Vashon Municipal. Either I have to fly ~25 miles north to
> go around the north end of the Class B, or I've got to fly south of the Class D
> airspaces for Tacoma Narrows, McChord AFB, Ft. Lewis AAF, and Olympia airport.
> Not an insignificant jog in a ~80 knots airplane.

I see your point.

Presumably, though, the airspace configuration is a function of the airports
in the area. What changes could you make to improve the situation without
moving any of the airports?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
>> Because they can't see the sailboats, whales, etc. I'm looking
>> at/for.
>
> I was just thinking


No, yuo weren't


Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Nov 22, 9:04 am, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2007-11-21 20:25:12 -0800, Newps > said:
>
> > A woman I work with is very good friends with the pilot of the aircraft
> > that ended up in the water. What basically happened is that the 182
> > ran over this aircraft, tearing the vertical tail off the aircraft. He
> > said next thing I know I am spinning. Every rotation of the spin makes
> > a bigger and bigger arc in the sky due to his inputs. Finally he can
> > basically get it right side up and with power and aileron he stalls it
> > into the water. Plane floats a while before sinking. After he gets
> > his wife out of the plane he notices missing tail. Both spend minimal
> > time at hospital. Meanwhile 182 jockey is all over the news
> > saying..."That other aircraft came out of nowhere." NTSB will most
> > likely fault both pilots for not seeing and avoiding.
>
> Yeah, we wouldn't want the NTSB faulting the real culprit there, would
> we? This area has been a chamber of horrors for a long time. Near
> misses are very common there. The FAA has so balkanized the airspace
> that air safety has been severely compromised, just as the AOPA
> predicted when the current airspace arrangement was proposed decades
> ago.
>
> What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
> through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
> class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
> or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit their
> airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
> proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
> and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location and
> direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
> and avoid other aircraft.
>
> Some pilots have made little lists of all the frequencies needed in the
> area, but these lists always seem to be missing one critical frequency
> or another. So everyone drops down to 1000' and tries to navigate a
> narrow corridor that runs through a maze of radio towers and along the
> freeway, trying to get from one side of Seattle to the other without
> talking to anybody.
>
> Aggravating the situation is that all these towers are busy and they do
> not necessarily reply very quickly to aircraft trying to contact them,
> so trying to avoid the crowded I-5 corridor quickly becomes an exercise
> in frustration. It is not at all uncommon for SeaTac to make you wait
> 20 minutes or more before transiting the class B airspace. I have seen
> aircraft circling over Vashon Island for ten minutes or more as they
> wait for Boeing Field to respond to their calls -- another good place
> for mid-airs while everyone waits their turn.
>
> Aircraft transiting Tacoma Narrows' airspace are usually restricted to
> 1500 feet, just 200 feet above the traffic pattern, and they often have
> to switch frequencies between SeaTac, McChord, Seattle Approach, and
> Tacoma Tower. It is not always clear who you are supposed to be talking
> to, either. You might be in Tacoma's airspace, but they might have you
> call SeaTac or Approach, claiming that they have some sort of LOA
> giving them control of their airspace, or vice versa.
>
> So the FAA has basically created a huge wall, 40 miles long and 10,000
> feet high, that is inaccessible to GA, but the wall has a tiny hole in
> it. And then they wonder why there are so many incidents there at that
> hole. It is like cramming a sixteen lane freeway down to a single lane
> and then blaming "bad drivers" for all the accidents and congestion
> there. But then again, Washington's Department of Transportation is
> entirely capable of pulling stunts like that, so maybe they are not so
> different from the FAA after all.
>
> The FAA's attempts to make us safe have ended up endangering thousands
> of people every day. So, yeah, blame the pilots.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor

Ronnie sad the PATCO controls "quit" in the 1980's....hmmm

[[email protected]]

On Nov 22, 2:54 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > C J Campbell writes:
>
> >> Yeah, we wouldn't want the NTSB faulting the real culprit there,
> would
> >> we? This area has been a chamber of horrors for a long time. Near
> >> misses are very common there. The FAA has so balkanized the airspace
> >> that air safety has been severely compromised, just as the AOPA
> >> predicted when the current airspace arrangement was proposed decades
> >> ago.
>
> >> What you have is a bunch of airplanes traveling a narrow corridor
> >> through a bunch of class D airspace areas while remaining under a low
> >> class B ceiling. Sure, you could call up Tacoma Narrows, and McChord,
> >> or SeaTac, or Boeing Field, or Fort Lewis, or Renton, and transit
> their
> >> airspace, but doing so requires you to be constantly looking up the
> >> proper radio frequency from a whole list of different ATC frequencies
> >> and figuring out which one is appropriate to use for your location
> and
> >> direction of flight, all the while trying to fly the airplane and see
> >> and avoid other aircraft.
>
> >> Some pilots have made little lists of all the frequencies needed in
> the
> >> area, but these lists always seem to be missing one critical
> frequency
> >> or another. So everyone drops down to 1000' and tries to navigate a
> >> narrow corridor that runs through a maze of radio towers and along
> the
> >> freeway, trying to get from one side of Seattle to the other without
> >> talking to anybody.
>
> > It sounds like a mess, but why can't you just contact one frequency
> and
> > request flight following?
>
> > Or for that matter, why can't you just fly IFR?
>
> > Or just fly around the complex airspace to the extent possible.
>
> You're an idiot.
>
> Bertie
>
>

No lunch spots closer to home ??