Advice Requested

[WJRFlyBoy]

It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
suggestions.

No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
this post or requested in the first place

TIA

Location: SW Florida/Bonita Springs
Objective: Flight for business (SE USA), travel between two homes
(Caribbean) and simple pleasure
My Age: mid 50s

--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.
>
> No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
> this post or requested in the first place
>
> TIA
>
> Location: SW Florida/Bonita Springs
> Objective: Flight for business (SE USA), travel between two homes
> (Caribbean) and simple pleasure
> My Age: mid 50s
>
The first thing you do is forget the posts that tell you "you are the
boss and the CFI is the employee". It doesn't work this way.
You are certainly entitled to a good flight instructor however, and
picking one out of the assortment available can be a daunting task.

The trick is to get the right one for YOU. This means a CFI who fits
well with your temperament and goals. Pick the right CFI and you will
enjoy every moment you spend learning to fly. Pick the wrong one and you
will be wasting time and money.

I always suggest doing some foot work before signing up at a flight
school. There are two things to consider; the operation itself, then the
individual CFI assigned to you within that organization. BOTH have to
meet your standards. If there is a weak link in this process, it can as
I say become quite time consuming and be an unenjoyable experience.

I suggest an informal visit to each operation you are considering. Just
show up, sit around, have a coffee and talk to people. See what
develops. Usually by doing this, you will end up getting a pretty fair
picture of who's who and what's what at that operation.

Some people like the organization of a full operation. Some like the
relaxed atmosphere of the small FBO. You have to decide which is best
for you individually.

As for the CFI; sit down and talk with each one you are considering.
It's always been my advice that if you don't feel an initial bonding and
camaraderie with a CFI on the first meeting it usually doesn't develop
later on. This again is your call.

ANY pressure....any at all, by a school or a CFI to sign up NOW should
be a red flag. Not all these situations are negative but enough are that
serious consideration should be the watchword.

The main thing is to do your own research on this issue. What you learn
from us on the forums will for the most part be from our own experience
and this may or may not apply to you and your specific situation.

Best of luck
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

[WJRFlyBoy]

Thanks, Dudley, especially the "talk and interview" approach, this makes
particular sense for me. I have until 1Q 2008 so time is on my side.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:53:52 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote:

> The first thing you do is forget the posts that tell you "you are the
> boss and the CFI is the employee". It doesn't work this way.
> You are certainly entitled to a good flight instructor however, and
> picking one out of the assortment available can be a daunting task.
>
> The trick is to get the right one for YOU. This means a CFI who fits
> well with your temperament and goals. Pick the right CFI and you will
> enjoy every moment you spend learning to fly. Pick the wrong one and you
> will be wasting time and money.
>
> I always suggest doing some foot work before signing up at a flight
> school. There are two things to consider; the operation itself, then the
> individual CFI assigned to you within that organization. BOTH have to
> meet your standards. If there is a weak link in this process, it can as
> I say become quite time consuming and be an unenjoyable experience.
>
> I suggest an informal visit to each operation you are considering. Just
> show up, sit around, have a coffee and talk to people. See what
> develops. Usually by doing this, you will end up getting a pretty fair
> picture of who's who and what's what at that operation.
>
> Some people like the organization of a full operation. Some like the
> relaxed atmosphere of the small FBO. You have to decide which is best
> for you individually.
>
> As for the CFI; sit down and talk with each one you are considering.
> It's always been my advice that if you don't feel an initial bonding and
> camaraderie with a CFI on the first meeting it usually doesn't develop
> later on. This again is your call.
>
> ANY pressure....any at all, by a school or a CFI to sign up NOW should
> be a red flag. Not all these situations are negative but enough are that
> serious consideration should be the watchword.
>
> The main thing is to do your own research on this issue. What you learn
> from us on the forums will for the most part be from our own experience
> and this may or may not apply to you and your specific situation.
>
> Best of luck
> DH


--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

<<snipped excellent advice>>

Prior to getting off the ground, can you suggest an educational approach
(websites, written materials, etc) so to get ahead of the academic learning
curve?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

WJRFlyBoy > writes:
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.

Things which helped me, and things which I wish I did:

- once you find an instructor or three which you like chatting with on
the ground, go for a demo flight with them. See if you like their
teaching style in the air. It is much easier to say to someone "I
decided to go with someone else" if they know you are just trying them
out and you have not yet committed to a single instructor.

- before starting your training, figure out your money. It really
sucks to reach solo, then have to stop flying for a while while you
save up for some more flight time, then have to redo a bunch of the
pre-solo work because your skills have become rusty and you have moved
to a new town. You are better off if you set aside $10-$15k up front
before starting your training. (If you are lucky, you won't have to
spend it all -- but may as well be prepared.)

- exceptional instructors are hard to come by (that's why they are
exceptions). Once you find one, you may find that their schedule is
really packed, so it is hard to get lessons scheduled with them. If
you tend to be busy too, make sure you choose an instructor who's
schedule is compatible with yours.

- if you can, try to fly twice a week (at least). Less than that and
you may start to get rusty between lessons, and it will take longer to
learn.

- try to find "mentors". If you can find someone in your area who
just got their certificate, they should be able to give you hints
about training in your area. It is good to know how often you should
expect lessons to be cancelled due to weather, how reliable certain
schools or instructors are, etc. You are most likely to get accurate
answers to your questions from someone who is not about to ask you for
lots of money. Also, someone who finished recently (or is still in
training) may have more immediately relevant information about schools
and instructors than someone who got their licence many years ago.

Chris

[kontiki]

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.
>
> No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
> this post or requested in the first place
>
> TIA
>

I agree that finding a CFI that you feel comfortable with is important.
Even better is one with more than 500 hours. But beyond that be prepared
to do some work and studying on your own. Too many students expect to be
spoon fed... they think because they are paying the money it should all
just happen without a lot of mental exertion on their part. Wrong.

The best students I've had are the ones that will study the material
on their own... will be well prepared for their pre-solo test and
for their solo cross countries and show up 20 minutes prior to their
scheduled lesson to get a weather briefing and for pre-flight.

Good luck... you sound like you want to be and will be a good pilot.

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:57:47 -0500, Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:

> - if you can, try to fly twice a week (at least). Less than that and
> you may start to get rusty between lessons, and it will take longer to
> learn.

Is there such a thing as too often?

> - try to find "mentors". If you can find someone in your area who
> just got their certificate, they should be able to give you hints
> about training in your area. It is good to know how often you should
> expect lessons to be cancelled due to weather, how reliable certain
> schools or instructors are, etc. You are most likely to get accurate
> answers to your questions from someone who is not about to ask you for
> lots of money. Also, someone who finished recently (or is still in
> training) may have more immediately relevant information about schools
> and instructors than someone who got their licence many years ago.
>
> Chris

Chris, thanks, can you suggest the bst way to find these in-training or
just finished (or is this self-evident once you get to the airport(s) ?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:54:29 GMT, kontiki wrote:

> WJRFlyBoy wrote:
>> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
>> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
>> suggestions.
>>
>> No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
>> this post or requested in the first place
>>
>> TIA
>>
>
> I agree that finding a CFI that you feel comfortable with is important.
> Even better is one with more than 500 hours. But beyond that be prepared
> to do some work and studying on your own. Too many students expect to be
> spoon fed... they think because they are paying the money it should all
> just happen without a lot of mental exertion on their part. Wrong.

Appreciate the time and the encouragement, yes, it's a "excellence or not"
thing with me. Drives my wife nutz :) I tend to pour into the pursuit of
something especially if it is new.

> The best students I've had are the ones that will study the material
> on their own... will be well prepared for their pre-solo test and
> for their solo cross countries and show up 20 minutes prior to their
> scheduled lesson to get a weather briefing and for pre-flight.
>
> Good luck... you sound like you want to be and will be a good pilot.

Suggestions on where to go for material to study, what material in
particular? Consider that I have zip experience and no ego.

I have had to wait 30 years +, kids out of the house, my wife willing to
give in, life insurance paid in full...:)
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Bob Gardner]

There is no such thing as too often, BUT you must allow yourself time to
assimilate the new information/experience/knowledge, and to prepare for the
next lesson. Your instructor should debrief you after each lesson and
discuss with you what comes next...but you will escape the re-learning that
comes with flying infrequently.

The web is an invaluable resource. Use search engines to the utmost.

Nothing wrong with cross-posting to both the student and piloting
newsgroups, but you will soon see that the same folks frequent both. I
recommend that you join the AOPA and log onto their forum as well as
www.pilotsofamerica.com, www.purpleboard.net, and www.studentpilot.com. Lots
of friendly, helpful folks and a few jerks.

Bob Gardner

"WJRFlyBoy" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:57:47 -0500, Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:
>
>> - if you can, try to fly twice a week (at least). Less than that and
>> you may start to get rusty between lessons, and it will take longer to
>> learn.
>
> Is there such a thing as too often?
>
>> - try to find "mentors". If you can find someone in your area who
>> just got their certificate, they should be able to give you hints
>> about training in your area. It is good to know how often you should
>> expect lessons to be cancelled due to weather, how reliable certain
>> schools or instructors are, etc. You are most likely to get accurate
>> answers to your questions from someone who is not about to ask you for
>> lots of money. Also, someone who finished recently (or is still in
>> training) may have more immediately relevant information about schools
>> and instructors than someone who got their licence many years ago.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Chris, thanks, can you suggest the bst way to find these in-training or
> just finished (or is this self-evident once you get to the airport(s) ?
> --
> Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[kontiki]

WJRFlyBoy wrote:

> Suggestions on where to go for material to study, what material in
> particular? Consider that I have zip experience and no ego.
>
> I have had to wait 30 years +, kids out of the house, my wife willing to
> give in, life insurance paid in full...:)

Well for starters it is really hard to beat the venerable FAA
Airplane Flying handbook for starters. You can buy it from any
number of sources, including even many FBO's. But you can also
download it directly from the FAA in PDF format here:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

It gives a great overview of everything you'll need to know and
do to get your private pilot license and includes some great
visuals. Going beyond that... and getting in-depth study and
explanation of every aeronautical topic you will encounter I'd
recommend The The Pilot's Manual (Private and Commercial) by
Trevor Thom. It has excellent explanations, illustrations and
even practice questions at the end of each chapter. I found it
very well written and still use it as a resource on occasions.
Of course you should also get the 2008 edition of the the FAR/AIM
(Federal Aviation Regulations and Aeronautical Information Manual)
[and even bring it with you on your check ride].

In studying for the written its hard to beat the tried and
true Gleim Private pilot FAA Knowledge test study guide.
It contains all the subject matter you will need to know to
pass the written test and provides example questions and
in-depth answers to actual questions you will get on the test.

Beyond the above texts, there are several DVD courses from
Jeppeson, Sporty's and King Schools. I have viewed several King
and Jeppeson tapes (DVDs) and found them very well done. In fact
all of these three have the entire Private pilot course on DVDs.
I prefer having a textbook myself but DVD coursse can benefit
many people... but they are not cheap... and still no real
substitute for some reading and studying a good textbook.

Hope this helps, and please keep us posted on your progress Sir.

[Vaughn Simon]

"WJRFlyBoy" > wrote in message
...
> <<snipped excellent advice>>
>
> Prior to getting off the ground, can you suggest an educational approach
> (websites, written materials, etc) so to get ahead of the academic learning
> curve?

Consider taking a ground school now if one is available in your area. They
may be available at local flight schools and/or your local community college.
For a modest investment in money and time, you will not only learn valuable
information that will speed your later cockpit learning, you will also get a
chance to talk to many other students who will have already had experiences with
local flight schools and CFIs. It will also get you a signoff so you can go
ahead and get your written exam out of the way.

Vaughn

[Bob Fry]

You might also consider a flying club which offers instruction.
Visit the airport convenient for your lessons and ask if there are
flying clubs there. Clubs can offer a little more camaraderie and
different style than strictly commercial flying schools. Visit both
and see which atmosphere you like.

How much free time do you have? The advice to get the written done
with is good, you can go to classes or get the Kings or Sportys DVDs
and watch/study on your own. Classes may go too slow for you and the
videos allow you to learn on your own pace.

You *can* fly too often, but what that is depends on the student. We
do a fair amount of learning in our sleep--we must allow new
experiences time to sort out in our brains while sleeping. So flying
several hours a day, every day, would probably not be productive. It
is also true that flying too seldom is not helpful. I found 2 to 3
times a week good, but you and your instructor will find a pace that
works for both.

You will encounter stretches when you learn rapidly and other times
when you simply cannot acquire some needed skill. During the latter,
remember, sometimes the brain simply needs extra time to assimilate
new things. It can help to take a couple weeks rest (from flying) and
come back to it later.
--
I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with
my legs.
~ Frederick Douglass, escaped slave

[marika]

"WJRFlyBoy" > wrote in message
...
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.

nope

mk5000

"That was before the population of the country was as it is now."--James
Donovan

[marika]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> Clubs can offer a little more camaraderie and
> different style than strictly commercial flying schools.


I am sure you have already heard this since you probably watch football

mk5000

`He was cut. We´re still investigating the nature of the
injury,´´ Sgt. Linda Doherty-Wright

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Nov 22, 2:16 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.
>
> No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
> this post or requested in the first place
>
> TIA
>
> Location: SW Florida/Bonita Springs
> Objective: Flight for business (SE USA), travel between two homes
> (Caribbean) and simple pleasure
> My Age: mid 50s
>
> --
> Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

This is one place to start. Phone calls to different schools will give
you a partial impression just the way they handle your call. Its a
business but unfortunately many flight schools aren't run that way and
staffed by kids who are not oriented towards the business end.
Ask to speak with the chief flight instructor and have your questions
ready as you posed here. Price, time, experience of instructors,
aircraft, time to completion, any guarantees of performance if you get
scheduled, etc. All too often a new student gets shoved off to one
side for their scheduled instructor to go fly a charter, or fly
something besides a "stupid training flight". I have fired more than
one young instructor for such attitudes.
A new instructor is eager to show off their new found skills but
frequently the student loses actual stick time watching the CFI show
off. OTOH, the new instructor is fresh on nearly everything having
been studying for his/her exams. I enjoy flying with older studetns
such as yourself for a number of reasons. 1. Motivation to learn to
fly and paying attention. 2. Maturity to understand it isn't a game
and requires study and focus. 3. Financial smarts to budget the money
within reason and capable of following thru to the end. 4. Desire to
fly safely and within their own envelope and experience level. 5.
Understanding how skills can deteriorate and the need for regular
training or refresher training.
While the older guys take more time to get it down, once they have it,
they HAVE it. Older people are smart enough to figure out when they
are being jerked around and usually have sense enough to say so or do
something about it.
Avoid buying every gadget in sight. There are a few basic books that
you need to study and even after 40 years of instructing, I still need
to review them from time to time. There are only a few basic pieces of
equipment that you need and don't buy the most expensive ones!
Experience will be your guide as you progress thru your flying.
Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask more questions. There are some
very experienced and helpful people here to lean on and learn from.
Soaring Buzzard
Worldwide infamous pilot/instructor

[Mike Isaksen]

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote ...
> I have had to wait 30 years +, kids out of the house,
> my wife willing to give in, life insurance paid in full...:)

Great to hear you are coming at this with eyes wide open! Remember to keep
it fun, even though you are tracking toward flying to support "business
meeting schedules". This is the most difficult area of General Aviation to
fulfill for a PPL. You'll need your instrument rating and a VERY able
aircraft. Something that can get above the weather in a hurry. A big turbo
twin or a single engine turboprop (TBM or like) would meet your needs, but
also empty your pockets quickly. That's why I mention to keep it fun. That
way, if you should need to adjust your end goals you won't look back and
think you wasted your time. It will have been fun, and can be a lifetime
hobby.

Also, call your life insurance agent and check on the details, sometimes
there are surprises in the fine print.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Nov 22, 3:16 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.
>
> No advice too basic, trust me :) Including what I should have included in
> this post or requested in the first place
>
> TIA
>
> Location: SW Florida/Bonita Springs
> Objective: Flight for business (SE USA), travel between two homes
> (Caribbean) and simple pleasure
> My Age: mid 50s
>
> --
> Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

When selecting a CFI, keep in mind that teaching and flying are two
separate skills. Many students get sold on war stories, especially
instructors who have flown big irons or served in combat. You want to
judge them based on their teaching and interpersonal skills. Most CFIs
have the flying skill to teach the beginning student. Think of a child
learning math. What you need is a teacher who is patient and has
insight into the childs thought process. You don't necessary want
someone with a PhD in math.

[Dallas]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:16:22 -0500, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

> It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> suggestions.

This is a good group isn't it? You could write a good article from what's
been said already.

I've got 2 cents I can contribute:

When you visit a flight school ask the question "How many hours do you
have? You can ask this question of everyone you meet because pilots
generally love to answer. This question then leads to a few follow up
questions as to their aspirations and goals in this industry with the goal
of weeding out schools with a lot of "time builders".

Time builders are not the end of the world, some are great natural
instructors while they build time. But, you should try to evaluate if they
like what they are doing.

Other good questions include, "How many students have you soloed?". "How
many students have you taken all the way to a certificate?"

In some of the cheaper flight schools, ask who does their maintenance. If
it's guy who shows up every Tuesday - Thursday and rents a hanger there you
might ask for a little tour of his operation before you bet your life on
his work.


--
Dallas

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:46:39 GMT, Vaughn Simon wrote:

> "WJRFlyBoy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> <<snipped excellent advice>>
>>
>> Prior to getting off the ground, can you suggest an educational approach
>> (websites, written materials, etc) so to get ahead of the academic learning
>> curve?
>
> Consider taking a ground school now if one is available in your area. They
> may be available at local flight schools and/or your local community college.
> For a modest investment in money and time, you will not only learn valuable
> information that will speed your later cockpit learning, you will also get a
> chance to talk to many other students who will have already had experiences with
> local flight schools and CFIs. It will also get you a signoff so you can go
> ahead and get your written exam out of the way.
>
> Vaughn

Yeah, ground school, good place to start before I crash and burn :)

Thanks, found a couple nearby.

http://tinyurl.com/3xtp48

http://www.beaveraviation.com/fl/flindex.htm

Vaughn, shows what good advice can lead to

http://0-atpl.blogspot.com/2006/01/hidden-costs.html

http://0-atpl.blogspot.com/2006/01/naples-air-center-cgi-to-leave.html

Don't know if that is the case with NaplesAC today but Caveat Emptor
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:45:15 -0800, Bob Gardner wrote:

> There is no such thing as too often, BUT you must allow yourself time to
> assimilate the new information/experience/knowledge, and to prepare for the
> next lesson. Your instructor should debrief you after each lesson and
> discuss with you what comes next...but you will escape the re-learning that
> comes with flying infrequently.
>
> The web is an invaluable resource. Use search engines to the utmost.
>
> Nothing wrong with cross-posting to both the student and piloting
> newsgroups, but you will soon see that the same folks frequent both. I
> recommend that you join the AOPA and log onto their forum as well as
> www.pilotsofamerica.com, www.purpleboard.net, and www.studentpilot.com. Lots
> of friendly, helpful folks and a few jerks.
>
> Bob Gardner

Got your email, appreciate the time for this post and it as well. The Xpost
didn't accomplish much but I am so behind the learning curve, **** against
the wall kind of thing.

I thought it was especially enlightening when you pointed out the
educational possibilities today vs yesterday (pre 1980?). Sometimes I
forget this not so simple fact even though my business *is* the software
technologies sector.

Kudos.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:32:21 GMT, kontiki wrote:

> Well for starters it is really hard to beat the venerable FAA
> Airplane Flying handbook for starters. You can buy it from any
> number of sources, including even many FBO's. But you can also
> download it directly from the FAA in PDF format here:
> http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

Done, free is my friend.

> It gives a great overview of everything you'll need to know and
> do to get your private pilot license and includes some great
> visuals. Going beyond that... and getting in-depth study and
> explanation of every aeronautical topic you will encounter I'd
> recommend The The Pilot's Manual (Private and Commercial) by
> Trevor Thom. It has excellent explanations, illustrations and
> even practice questions at the end of each chapter. I found it
> very well written and still use it as a resource on occasions.

Bought.

> Of course you should also get the 2008 edition of the the FAR/AIM
> (Federal Aviation Regulations and Aeronautical Information Manual)
> [and even bring it with you on your check ride].
>
> In studying for the written its hard to beat the tried and
> true Gleim Private pilot FAA Knowledge test study guide.
> It contains all the subject matter you will need to know to
> pass the written test and provides example questions and
> in-depth answers to actual questions you will get on the test.

Legal cheat sheets, all for it :)

> Beyond the above texts, there are several DVD courses from
> Jeppeson, Sporty's and King Schools. I have viewed several King
> and Jeppeson tapes (DVDs) and found them very well done. In fact
> all of these three have the entire Private pilot course on DVDs.
> I prefer having a textbook myself but DVD coursse can benefit
> many people... but they are not cheap... and still no real
> substitute for some reading and studying a good textbook.

I can't do the DVD thing unless it is a supplement, Old dogs, no new tricks
but after reading the text, the DVDs prolly make sense. My bet is the under
35 crowd goes for the DVDs in a big way. Few know how to read, imo,
including two sons I know.

> Hope this helps, and please keep us posted on your progress Sir.

Thanks for your interest. Maybe the next noobie to trip in here can use
this thread, it is an *immense* help to know where to start and to waste
little time in the process.

I haven't been this excited in many moons.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:39:17 -0800, Bob Fry wrote:

> You might also consider a flying club which offers instruction.
> Visit the airport convenient for your lessons and ask if there are
> flying clubs there. Clubs can offer a little more camaraderie and
> different style than strictly commercial flying schools. Visit both
> and see which atmosphere you like.

Located several, going to try that out.

> How much free time do you have? The advice to get the written done
> with is good, you can go to classes or get the Kings or Sportys DVDs
> and watch/study on your own. Classes may go too slow for you and the
> videos allow you to learn on your own pace.

Fortunately, I can control my time, coming off a large project that
absolutely ate up much of any free time for, wow, three years. (had to look
at the calendar)

> You *can* fly too often, but what that is depends on the student. We
> do a fair amount of learning in our sleep--we must allow new
> experiences time to sort out in our brains while sleeping. So flying
> several hours a day, every day, would probably not be productive. It
> is also true that flying too seldom is not helpful. I found 2 to 3
> times a week good, but you and your instructor will find a pace that
> works for both.

I have to watch the immersion aspects, agree on your assessments. I'm used
to high levels of overload but I am also really in need of some
non-timelined destressing. When is stops being fun, I'll know.

> You will encounter stretches when you learn rapidly and other times
> when you simply cannot acquire some needed skill. During the latter,
> remember, sometimes the brain simply needs extra time to assimilate
> new things. It can help to take a couple weeks rest (from flying) and
> come back to it later.

Got a cruise planned 2Q mid, that always does it for me.

Advice is appreciated, thank you.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

WJRFlyBoy > writes:
>> - try to find "mentors". If you can find someone in your area who
>> just got their certificate, they should be able to give you hints
>> about training in your area. It is good to know how often you should
>> expect lessons to be cancelled due to weather, how reliable certain
>> schools or instructors are, etc. You are most likely to get accurate
>> answers to your questions from someone who is not about to ask you for
>> lots of money. Also, someone who finished recently (or is still in
>> training) may have more immediately relevant information about schools
>> and instructors than someone who got their licence many years ago.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Chris, thanks, can you suggest the bst way to find these in-training or
> just finished (or is this self-evident once you get to the airport(s) ?

Go hang out at an airport during peak hours (weekends during the day
and mornings and evenings weekdays), and and ask around in a friendly
way. I have found that most folks at airports are pretty nice, and
many of them find that "hangar flying" (aka, talking about flying
while on the ground) is fun, and much cheaper than going and flying
more... :-)

Chris

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:52:09 -0600, Dallas wrote:

> This is a good group isn't it? You could write a good article from what's
> been said already.

Damn straight it is.

> I've got 2 cents I can contribute:
>
> When you visit a flight school ask the question "How many hours do you
> have? You can ask this question of everyone you meet because pilots
> generally love to answer. This question then leads to a few follow up
> questions as to their aspirations and goals in this industry with the goal
> of weeding out schools with a lot of "time builders".
>
> Time builders are not the end of the world, some are great natural
> instructors while they build time. But, you should try to evaluate if they
> like what they are doing.
>
> Other good questions include, "How many students have you soloed?". "How
> many students have you taken all the way to a certificate?"
>
> In some of the cheaper flight schools, ask who does their maintenance. If
> it's guy who shows up every Tuesday - Thursday and rents a hanger there you
> might ask for a little tour of his operation before you bet your life on
> his work.

Had to look up "time builders" but see your point. The maintenance issue I
dealt with back in the 80s with a real estate partner who flew. I stopped
flying with him when his battery cable was found off two days in a row.
After landing.

With the smart questions, that helps, I won't feel so much like a dumbass.

Thanks, Dallas
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Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:41:46 -0800 (PST), Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> Phone calls to different schools will give
> you a partial impression just the way they handle your call. Its a
> business but unfortunately many flight schools aren't run that way and
> staffed by kids who are not oriented towards the business end.
> Ask to speak with the chief flight instructor and have your questions
> ready as you posed here. Price, time, experience of instructors,
> aircraft, time to completion, any guarantees of performance if you get
> scheduled, etc.

I'm building a list of questions, thanks for the headliners, I didn't have
a couple of these.

> A new instructor is eager to show off their new found skills but
> frequently the student loses actual stick time watching the CFI show
> off. OTOH, the new instructor is fresh on nearly everything having
> been studying for his/her exams. I enjoy flying with older studetns
> such as yourself for a number of reasons. 1. Motivation to learn to
> fly and paying attention. 2. Maturity to understand it isn't a game
> and requires study and focus. 3. Financial smarts to budget the money
> within reason and capable of following thru to the end. 4. Desire to
> fly safely and within their own envelope and experience level. 5.
> Understanding how skills can deteriorate and the need for regular
> training or refresher training.

6. We fear death.

> While the older guys take more time to get it down, once they have it,
> they HAVE it. Older people are smart enough to figure out when they
> are being jerked around and usually have sense enough to say so or do
> something about it.

Inverse relationship between age and time to fart around.

> Avoid buying every gadget in sight. There are a few basic books that
> you need to study and even after 40 years of instructing, I still need
> to review them from time to time. There are only a few basic pieces of
> equipment that you need and don't buy the most expensive ones!

Have been watching the watch thread. :)

> Experience will be your guide as you progress thru your flying.
> Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask more questions. There are some
> very experienced and helpful people here to lean on and learn from.

Very kind of you, and of those who have taken their time to help me out.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:26:24 -0800 (PST), Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> When selecting a CFI, keep in mind that teaching and flying are two
> separate skills. Many students get sold on war stories, especially
> instructors who have flown big irons or served in combat.

Been there done that, combat doesn't impress. War stories, got my own,
LRRPS.

> You want to
> judge them based on their teaching and interpersonal skills. Most CFIs
> have the flying skill to teach the beginning student. Think of a child
> learning math. What you need is a teacher who is patient and has
> insight into the childs thought process. You don't necessary want
> someone with a PhD in math.

Good point. have friend who is exTop Gun Navy AF instructor, NASJAX, he
offered, I declined. I appreciate your thought on this.
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Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:34:09 GMT, Mike Isaksen wrote:

> Great to hear you are coming at this with eyes wide open!

Those aren't alert eyes, those are nervous eyes !

> Remember to keep
> it fun, even though you are tracking toward flying to support "business
> meeting schedules". This is the most difficult area of General Aviation to
> fulfill for a PPL. You'll need your instrument rating and a VERY able
> aircraft. Something that can get above the weather in a hurry. A big turbo
> twin or a single engine turboprop (TBM or like) would meet your needs, but
> also empty your pockets quickly. That's why I mention to keep it fun. That
> way, if you should need to adjust your end goals you won't look back and
> think you wasted your time. It will have been fun, and can be a lifetime
> hobby.

First is the fun then if I can make flying business related, that would be
great but it also would be gravy.

> Also, call your life insurance agent and check on the details, sometimes
> there are surprises in the fine print.

Yeah, wife is all over that one :)
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:46:22 -0500, Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:

>> Chris, thanks, can you suggest the bst way to find these in-training or
>> just finished (or is this self-evident once you get to the airport(s) ?
>
> Go hang out at an airport during peak hours (weekends during the day
> and mornings and evenings weekdays), and and ask around in a friendly
> way. I have found that most folks at airports are pretty nice, and
> many of them find that "hangar flying" (aka, talking about flying
> while on the ground) is fun, and much cheaper than going and flying
> more... :-)
>
> Chris

I'm practicing my "poor pitiful me" routine, playing to the human emotion
to help the helpless. :)
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Nov 23, 12:52 pm, Dallas > wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:16:22 -0500, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
> > It's time to stop talking and start doing so I would appreciate any advice
> > on how to assess a flight school, instructor, pricing and any other
> > suggestions.
>
> This is a good group isn't it? You could write a good article from what's
> been said already.
>
> I've got 2 cents I can contribute:
>
> When you visit a flight school ask the question "How many hours do you
> have? You can ask this question of everyone you meet because pilots
> generally love to answer.

Although the number of hours might be indicative of something, that
the least relevant qualification for CFIs. Most instructors spend
countless hours going around the same traffic pattern and flying to
the same airports that hours start to mean very little. I am in that
category, so I know that is true. I have several thousand hours, but
only a few of them are truly meaningful experience.

> This question then leads to a few follow up
> questions as to their aspirations and goals in this industry with the goal
> of weeding out schools with a lot of "time builders".
>
> Time builders are not the end of the world, some are great natural
> instructors while they build time. But, you should try to evaluate if they
> like what they are doing.
>
> Other good questions include, "How many students have you soloed?". "How
> many students have you taken all the way to a certificate?"
>
> In some of the cheaper flight schools, ask who does their maintenance. If
> it's guy who shows up every Tuesday - Thursday and rents a hanger there you
> might ask for a little tour of his operation before you bet your life on
> his work.
>

I would say one of the most important factors is figuring out whether
his teaching style is compatible with your learning style. Some people
like to understand the technical details before doing them, and some
others like to try them out first before getting into the details.
These are different learning styles. There are some who are fascinated
by the fundamentals of anything that flies. These are the people who
ask specific questions about each component on the airframe. Others
are fascinated by the idea of being able to travel by air, and are
more interested in airport environments, navigation and weather. This
is not to say these qualities are all exclusive of one another. But
everyone has their own focus areas of interest, and if you can match
it up with your instructor that will be a great combination.

[Dallas]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:45:30 -0800 (PST), Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> Although the number of hours might be indicative of something, that
> the least relevant qualification for CFIs.

Absolutely true. I suggest asking in more of a social context to get the
conversation moving in the right direction.

> I would say one of the most important factors is figuring out whether
> his teaching style is compatible with your learning style.

As to the personality of the instructor, I had one for a couple of lessons
that was "painfully shy". "Painfully shy" is not a personality trait you
want in an instructor.

I still joke that he was my first passenger.

:-)

--
Dallas

[kontiki]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> Although the number of hours might be indicative of something, that
> the least relevant qualification for CFIs. Most instructors spend
> countless hours going around the same traffic pattern and flying to
> the same airports that hours start to mean very little. I am in that
> category, so I know that is true. I have several thousand hours, but
> only a few of them are truly meaningful experience.
>

Personally, I think there should be more hours of aeronautical flying
experience required to obtain a CFI. At least 500, but perhaps like
the ATP, require so many cross country hours, so many night hours etc.
You'd potentially get a better quality instructor and less likely to
have a 'mishap' due to low time and experience.

I'm sure some people would hate that (young guys just wanting to
build hours) but personally I think the quality of flight instruction
would go up a notch... and the students would reap the benefit of
more of these pilots experience. Yes, you would have to pay us more
but you I believe you will get a higher level of instruction from
a more dedicated CFI. Heck, we might actually be able to make a
living flight instructing if we were paid what we were worth. ;^)

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:45:30 -0800 (PST), Andrew Sarangan wrote:

>> I've got 2 cents I can contribute:
>>
>> When you visit a flight school ask the question "How many hours do you
>> have? You can ask this question of everyone you meet because pilots
>> generally love to answer.
>
> Although the number of hours might be indicative of something, that
> the least relevant qualification for CFIs. Most instructors spend
> countless hours going around the same traffic pattern and flying to
> the same airports that hours start to mean very little. I am in that
> category, so I know that is true. I have several thousand hours, but
> only a few of them are truly meaningful experience.

Is there a way to ask the question that would filter the answer to
"meaningful" hours?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:45:30 -0800 (PST), Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> I would say one of the most important factors is figuring out whether
> the CFI teaching style is compatible with your learning style. Some people
> like to understand the technical details before doing them, and some
> others like to try them out first before getting into the details.

Former

> These are different learning styles. There are some who are fascinated
> by the fundamentals of anything that flies. These are the people who
> ask specific questions about each component on the airframe.

Latter

> Others are fascinated by the idea of being able to travel by air, and are
> more interested in airport environments, navigation and weather.

Latter

> This
> is not to say these qualities are all exclusive of one another. But
> everyone has their own focus areas of interest, and if you can match
> it up with your instructor that will be a great combination.

Thanks, again.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:22:01 -0600, Dallas wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:45:30 -0800 (PST), Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>> Although the number of hours might be indicative of something, that
>> the least relevant qualification for CFIs.
>
> Absolutely true. I suggest asking in more of a social context to get the
> conversation moving in the right direction.
>
>> I would say one of the most important factors is figuring out whether
>> his teaching style is compatible with your learning style.
>
> As to the personality of the instructor, I had one for a couple of lessons
> that was "painfully shy". "Painfully shy" is not a personality trait you
> want in an instructor.
>
> I still joke that he was my first passenger.
>
> :-)

Writing "avoid painfully shy passionately"
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!