Pegasus or ....?

[Mike125]

I'm looking to move up a level from my ASW 15. Ideally, I'd like an LS
4 but they are few and far between. A couple of Pegasuses (Pegasi?)
are listed on W&W and seem to be reasonably priced for what you get. I
am in the US and am aware of the 3000 hr issue but don't fly enough
for that to be a factor with the ones I've seen. After looking through
the RAS archives it seems that parts and support were/are an issue.
The most recent of these posts are from 2003. Can I assume that
support hasn't gotten any better? What are you Pegasus drivers
experiencing these days?

As an aside, my ASW 15 had an Experimental certificate when I bought
it. The original owner had a water ballast system installed and the
certificate changed from Standard to Experimental. The system had been
mostly removed when I bought it. I finished the process and had the
certificate changed back to Standard. My questions are 1) how
difficult is it to make the change from Standard to Experimental? and
2) wouldn't this make repairs a little less difficult?

Anyone have a nice LS 4 they are willing to part with?

Mike

[[email protected]]

I can't help you much with the specific question, but I also own an
ASW 15 and have pondered what my next glider could be. I am looking at
at least a couple more years flying the 15 before that happens, but if
you are looking at the Pegs you might consider the ASW 20. Alot of
them out there in comparison and alot of good pilots to comment on it.
It is a good performer for the money. I was thinking for myself of a
Discus A if it could be found and/or afforded. The LS 4 is nice or a
DG. I think we are getting up around 30K and more now. Not sure if
anything else in the LS 4 price range would be better.
Do a search on R.A.S. and you will see a great deal of suggestions
and opinions on various types. The ASW 15 flys very nicely and I am
very happy with mine. Was it your first sailplane? How long have you
been flying it?
Now.......... maybe the ASW 24 or 27? Or maybe the LS 8 anyone?
Craig


> I'm looking to move up a level from my ASW 15.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 23, 9:43 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> I'm looking to move up a level from my ASW 15. Ideally, I'd like an LS
> 4 but they are few and far between. A couple of Pegasuses (Pegasi?)
> are listed on W&W and seem to be reasonably priced for what you get. I
> am in the US and am aware of the 3000 hr issue but don't fly enough
> for that to be a factor with the ones I've seen.

Consider the ASW-19 or ASW-19B. Performance of my 19b was as good as
any Pegasus I flew with and you don't inherit the life limit problem.
Cost of used 19's is a lot less than the LS-4 and the performance
difference is not great.

When considering if you want experiment or standard airworthiness
cerificate don't forget to consider your life insurance needs if you
have a family. Some, perhaps many, insurance companies will make
flying experimental aircraft an uninsured risk.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Nov 23, 8:43 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> I'm looking to move up a level from my ASW 15. Ideally, I'd like an LS
> 4 but they are few and far between. A couple of Pegasuses (Pegasi?)
> are listed on W&W and seem to be reasonably priced for what you get. I
> am in the US and am aware of the 3000 hr issue but don't fly enough
> for that to be a factor with the ones I've seen. After looking through
> the RAS archives it seems that parts and support were/are an issue.
> The most recent of these posts are from 2003. Can I assume that
> support hasn't gotten any better? What are you Pegasus drivers
> experiencing these days?
>
> As an aside, my ASW 15 had an Experimental certificate when I bought
> it. The original owner had a water ballast system installed and the
> certificate changed from Standard to Experimental. The system had been
> mostly removed when I bought it. I finished the process and had the
> certificate changed back to Standard. My questions are 1) how
> difficult is it to make the change from Standard to Experimental? and
> 2) wouldn't this make repairs a little less difficult?
>
> Anyone have a nice LS 4 they are willing to part with?
>
> Mike

Pegasus is a very good choice. It doesn't have any bad habits. It is
built like a tank, simple and parts are available through the factory
without any issues whatsoever. Send me an email to jacek dot kobiesa
at clearwire dot net to remained me of it and I will send you their
contact. I bought from them hinges, hinge pins, pedals, etc. So, don't
buy from anybody that lack of factory support nonsense. In flight, if
you don't go above 85 kts. you can stay with almost every standard
class glider. Cockpit is big, I am 5'10", 186 lbs. and I still had a
room to spare. The only item that I had an issue with is very weak
wheel brake. I rebuild it in my glider with new shoes, springs, cable,
and it was still marginal. But don't take my word for it: go and fly
one, and then fly the LS-4, ASW-19, and whatever else you can and make
your own decision. I just sold mine and I put on it last 2 seasons
almost 200 hours.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

[connekt]

For the best of my knowledge the Pegasus is a France-produced version
of the ASW 19, with some marginal modifications. Good ship and very
stable, but I think you won't see much difference compared to the ASW
15. The real step-up on my opinion would be the ASW 20 (the L version
even better), which can really give you some satisfactions. On the
flip side, it requires attention in certain conditions, nothing
impossible but it's definitely less forgiving than the ASW 15, 19 or
the various Discus or LS4. But still the ASW 20 seems to be the best
bang for the buck.

On Nov 23, 8:43 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> I'm looking to move up a level from my ASW 15. Ideally, I'd like an LS
> 4 but they are few and far between. A couple of Pegasuses (Pegasi?)
> are listed on W&W and seem to be reasonably priced for what you get. I
> am in the US and am aware of the 3000 hr issue but don't fly enough
> for that to be a factor with the ones I've seen. After looking through
> the RAS archives it seems that parts and support were/are an issue.
> The most recent of these posts are from 2003. Can I assume that
> support hasn't gotten any better? What are you Pegasus drivers
> experiencing these days?
>
> As an aside, my ASW 15 had an Experimental certificate when I bought
> it. The original owner had a water ballast system installed and the
> certificate changed from Standard to Experimental. The system had been
> mostly removed when I bought it. I finished the process and had the
> certificate changed back to Standard. My questions are 1) how
> difficult is it to make the change from Standard to Experimental? and
> 2) wouldn't this make repairs a little less difficult?
>
> Anyone have a nice LS 4 they are willing to part with?
>
> Mike

[Michel Talon]

connekt > wrote:
> For the best of my knowledge the Pegasus is a France-produced version
> of the ASW 19, with some marginal modifications.

Completely false. Only the fuselage is basically the same, the wings are
totally different. The handling and performances is better than
the ASW19, and much much better than the ASW15.

> Good ship and very
> stable, but I think you won't see much difference compared to the ASW
> 15.

The Pegase has the same performances as the LS4 and not much
different to the ASW20. The only problem, but very serious, is the
3000 hours limitation in the US. On the other hand it is far cheaper
than all those gliders, thanks to being produced in France.

> The real step-up on my opinion would be the ASW 20 (the L version
> even better), which can really give you some satisfactions. On the
> flip side, it requires attention in certain conditions, nothing
> impossible but it's definitely less forgiving than the ASW 15, 19 or
> the various Discus or LS4. But still the ASW 20 seems to be the best
> bang for the buck.

--

Michel TALON

[Tony Verhulst]

> Pegasus is a very good choice.


Agreed.


> It doesn't have any bad habits..


Only one, IMHO. It is a handful in a cross wind take off. And, after
having seen 2 other 19's connect with solid objects after veering off to
the side in a xwind departure, I suspect that my opinion is shared with
others.

In my 2 or 3 years as a part owner in a 19, I can't remember a single
xwind take off that I really was happy with. OTOH, take offs in my LS6
in similar conditions are "no brainers".

Tony V.

[Bill[_11_]]

> wrote

> Pegasus is a very good choice.

Excellent performance for the money.

> It doesn't have any bad habits.

Well, keeping wings level in the early part of the takeoff run can be a bit
of a challenge, especially in even the lightest crosswind. It also tends to
drop the nose pretty dramatically and abruptly if you let speed bleed off in
a slip. Otherwise I find it to be a very honest and relatively docile
aircraft. Handling is excellent with very sensitive response in pitch and
yaw (roll is a bit less enthusiastic, as is typical for this type of
aircraft). Be prepared for some moderate PIO on the first takeoff or two.
Assembly is very straightforward assuming spring-loaded sleeves have been
retrofitted to aileron and spoiler connections, otherwise pinning these
connections can be awkward. A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
using a safety pin is not a problem.

> It is built like a tank, simple and parts are available through the
> factory
> without any issues whatsoever.

If you speak French.

> Send me an email to jacek dot kobiesa
> at clearwire dot net to remained me of it and I will send you their
> contact. I bought from them hinges, hinge pins, pedals, etc. So, don't
> buy from anybody that lack of factory support nonsense.

Support is available. Access to support for non-Francophones can be
challenging. My best advice to a potential Peg owner is to learn enough
French to be polite and have patience.

> In flight, if
> you don't go above 85 kts. you can stay with almost every standard
> class glider. Cockpit is big, I am 5'10", 186 lbs. and I still had a
> room to spare.

I am 6' 3" (1.9 meters) and 230 pounds (103.3 kilos). Aside from being a bit
tight in the shoulders, my Peg fits me just fine with a backpack parachute.
I do find the rudder pedals to be very narrow and have to fly wearing
specialized driving shoes with narrow soles to fit my feet into the pedals.
I also find that my knees fall exactly under the relatively sharp bottom
edge of the instrument panel (I added some split rubber hose as "edge
dressing" to provide a bit of cushioning).

> The only item that I had an issue with is very weak
> wheel brake. I rebuild it in my glider with new shoes, springs, cable,
> and it was still marginal.

I find the brake, operated by a motorcycle-like lever on the stick,
acceptable when stopping from a slow roll, otherwise it's virtually useless.

> But don't take my word for it: go and fly
> one, and then fly the LS-4, ASW-19, and whatever else you can and make
> your own decision. I just sold mine and I put on it last 2 seasons
> almost 200 hours.

In my humble opinion, the Pegasus is a great aircraft and a good choice for
moderately experienced pilots as a first high-performance or competition
sailplane.

--
Bill
"TX"


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[Cats]

On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" > wrote:
<snip>
> A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
> connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
> using a safety pin is not a problem.
<snip>

I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
101a.

[Tony Verhulst]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
>> Pegasus is a very good choice.
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
> > It doesn't have any bad habits..
>
>
> Only one, IMHO. It is a handful in a cross wind take off. And, after
> having seen 2 other 19's connect with solid objects after veering off to
> the side in a xwind departure, I suspect that my opinion is shared with
> others.
>
> In my 2 or 3 years as a part owner in a 19, I can't remember a single
> xwind take off that I really was happy with. OTOH, take offs in my LS6
> in similar conditions are "no brainers".
>
> Tony V.


Oh, poop! in the above, wherever it says '19" substitute "peg". What a
brain fart.

Tony

[Tim Mara]

my 2 cents:

>> Pegasus is a very good choice.
>
> Excellent performance for the money.

Pegasus is very typical of gliders of the late 70's mid 80's performance
More deluxe than ASW19/20 with finished interior, lifting instrument panel
like last ASW20 models offered, having owned (2)Pegasus, ASW19 and ASW20,
and ASW20C would say they all handled and performed essentially the same..
obvious differences were flaps on 20's, Quality was similar, some better and
worse on each.

>
>> It doesn't have any bad habits.
>
> Well, keeping wings level in the early part of the takeoff run can be a
> bit of a challenge, especially in even the lightest crosswind. It also
> tends to drop the nose pretty dramatically and abruptly if you let speed
> bleed off in a slip. Otherwise I find it to be a very honest and
> relatively docile aircraft. Handling is excellent with very sensitive
> response in pitch and yaw (roll is a bit less enthusiastic, as is typical
> for this type of aircraft). Be prepared for some moderate PIO on the first
> takeoff or two. Assembly is very straightforward assuming spring-loaded
> sleeves have been retrofitted to aileron and spoiler connections,
> otherwise pinning these connections can be awkward. A sleeve can not be
> added to the elevator connection due to lack of space, but this connection
> is exposed enough that using a safety pin is not a problem.


worst bad habit if you could call it that is manual hook-ups and lack of
access...very difficult to verify safe control connections....assembly is
slow and very unfriendly by comparison to better designs.

Flying was not difficult or unusual....I never noticed any unusual or
exciting take-offs in any of these, though I did with earlier ASW15's with
offset CG hook....now those need attention! I do have a fair amont of glider
experience though and may not recommend these gliders to lower time pilots
since like any more-or-less modern racing gliders do things more quickly and
less noticeable than club type gliders....all of these (ASW19/20/Pegasus)
gliders can catch the sloppy flyer with an unplanned wingover and possibly a
spin, probably moreso with ASW20 with flaps in use

>
>> It is built like a tank, simple and parts are available through the
>> factory
>> without any issues whatsoever.
>
> If you speak French.

actually I've called Centrair on a couple of occasions and had no difficulty
in speaking with Mary Ann in English (actually her English was probably
better than mine :o) They are still or at least were, when I called last
(about a year ago) very supportive of Pegasus owners, even in the USA but
you can expect to wait for special parts, they are IMO a bit slow with
delivering parts.


>
>> Send me an email to jacek dot kobiesa
>> at clearwire dot net to remained me of it and I will send you their
>> contact. I bought from them hinges, hinge pins, pedals, etc. So, don't
>> buy from anybody that lack of factory support nonsense.
>
> Support is available. Access to support for non-Francophones can be
> challenging. My best advice to a potential Peg owner is to learn enough
> French to be polite and have patience.

It's no more difficult speaking English with people at Centrair than it is
with the German companies, being polite with anyone gets you further than
being rude or demanding.

>

> I am 6' 3" (1.9 meters) and 230 pounds (103.3 kilos). Aside from being a
> bit tight in the shoulders, my Peg fits me just fine with a backpack
> parachute. I do find the rudder pedals to be very narrow and have to fly
> wearing specialized driving shoes with narrow soles to fit my feet into
> the pedals. I also find that my knees fall exactly under the relatively
> sharp bottom edge of the instrument panel (I added some split rubber hose
> as "edge dressing" to provide a bit of cushioning).

Rudder pedals are narrow and uncomfortable, there is little room for big
feet in any of these and there was an ad to change out the rudder pedals in
the pegasus (a not so pleasant operation to accomplish) and the new pedals
were even narrower than the originals for whatever reason...

>
>> The only item that I had an issue with is very weak
>> wheel brake. I rebuild it in my glider with new shoes, springs, cable,
>> and it was still marginal.
> I find the brake, operated by a motorcycle-like lever on the stick,
> acceptable when stopping from a slow roll, otherwise it's virtually
> useless.

actually I never had an issue with the wheel brakes on any of these, the
brakes were not overPowering, but if serviced and adjusted did an OK job of
stoping the glider....but unmaintained you'll be very unhappy with the
stopping power, they all use a reasonibly sized 5" wheel, much better than
many gliders of the era still using very small light 4" wheels.


>> But don't take my word for it: go and fly
>> one, and then fly the LS-4, ASW-19, and whatever else you can and make
>> your own decision. I just sold mine and I put on it last 2 seasons
>> almost 200 hours.
>
> In my humble opinion, the Pegasus is a great aircraft and a good choice
> for moderately experienced pilots as a first high-performance or
> competition sailplane.

I concour mostly....for the $ it's in the ball park, I'd say the LS gliders
handle better and are more docile for relative equal perfomance and similar
costs, quality is typical and no one should expect any of these mentioned
gliders to be in perfect condition, all will have some issues with finish
unless thay have been refinished, find one that has had the best care, the
BEST TRAILER since this will have a great deal to do with enjoyment since
assembly is going to be an issue, and check and DOUBLE check the control
connections!
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

> Bill
> "TX"
>
> --
> Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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> Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

[Dan G]

How does the Standard Cirrus compare to the Pegase and 19 in terms of
performance and handling?


Dan

[jcarlyle]

I think the ASW-19 is suitable to low time pilots, as I started flying
my 19 at about 90 hours and 220 flights total experience (95% of that
in 2-33s, 1-26s, L-13s and L-23s). The biggest transition problem for
me was the CG hook and the need for careful approach speed control.

With regard to manual control hook-ups, I don't find them to be a
problem. It takes 20 seconds to connect the L'Hotelliers, and less
than a minute to pin them. You can easily see things if you put your
eye to the inspection hatch, and it's easy to manually verify through
pushing the button while pulling and twisting to verify that they're
properly engaged. True, manuals aren't the no-brainer that automatic
hook-ups are. However, I've seen automatic hook-ups fail to engage and
cause 5 minutes or so of frustration during wing assembly on LS and SH
ships. Naturally, you MUST do a PCC with either type of hook-up!

I can't speak from personal experience regarding the Pegasus, but the
previous owner of my ship bought one. For what it's worth, he said the
Pegasus flew like a truck in comparison to the ASW-19.

-John

[Michel Talon]

Dan G > wrote:
> How does the Standard Cirrus compare to the Pegase and 19 in terms of
> performance and handling?
>
>
> Dan


You can find a list of L/D for some gliders here:
http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~mjboyd/cfi/glider/HiPerfGlidersCompared
They give the Pegase at 41.
The Open Cirrus at 44, but it is a 18m ship. The 15m one is given here
at 38.5 in its best variant
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_(planeur)
By comparison, there is a LS4 polar here:
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/soaring/spd2fly/polars/ls-4a.jpg
which gives L/D at 40. I think it is roughly equivalent to the Pegase.
An other comparison is the ASW19, information can be found here:
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/schleich.htm
and ASW19 is given with L/D at 38, that is basically like the standard
Cirrus, and the ASW20 at 43.
By the way, you can find the other manufacturers at the same place.



--

Michel TALON

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Cats wrote:
> On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" > wrote:
> <snip>
>> A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
>> connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
>> using a safety pin is not a problem.
> <snip>
>
> I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
> 101a.
>
If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tim Mara]

not even in the same category.... keeping in mind you are speaking of quite
an evolutionally jump, much was learned in construction technique, better
airfoils and to a lesser degree performance.
Std Cirrus is in the generation of ASW15, LS1, Libelle and a few others
in this group I would personally rate the LS1 and best handling, easiest to
fly (I'm speaking of LS1f only)
Libelle (my personal favorite) was best design, innovation, easiest to
assemble and just all around great design for the time....production numbers
seem to prove this also. Std Cirrus, ASW15 and earlier LS1 fall below the
head of the class in all of these areas.
my last 2 cents
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Dan G" > wrote in message
...
> How does the Standard Cirrus compare to the Pegase and 19 in terms of
> performance and handling?
>
>
> Dan

[Tim Mara]

> With regard to manual control hook-ups, I don't find them to be a
> problem. It takes 20 seconds to connect the L'Hotelliers, and less
> than a minute to pin them. You can easily see things if you put your
> eye to the inspection hatch, and it's easy to manually verify through
> pushing the button while pulling and twisting to verify that they're
> properly engaged.

must be you're not yet over 50 and into the bifocal user's group....with
Popeye forearms going into tiny hatch opening connections are essentially in
brail, with bright sun looking onto a white fuselage with a black hole to
inspect the connections even making the connetion, say nothing of safety
pins in almost guesswork... I know few who can say that they never missed a
connection at least once....double and triple check them!



> I can't speak from personal experience regarding the Pegasus, but the
> previous owner of my ship bought one. For what it's worth, he said the
> Pegasus flew like a truck in comparison to the ASW-19.

must have been a really nice ASW19 and a really bad Pegasus! They are
essentially the same with modified non-flapped 20 wings on the
Pegasus.....The Pegasus probably then I guess flys more like a 20 than it
does a 19.
tim


> -John

[Ian]

On 29 Nov, 17:41, "Tim Mara" > wrote:

> must have been a really nice ASW19 and a really bad Pegasus! They are
> essentially the same with modified non-flapped 20 wings on the
> Pegasus.....The Pegasus probably then I guess flys more like a 20 than it
> does a 19.

I don't think I ever flew a 19, but I did a fair few hours in a
Pegasus one summer. Lovely thing, I thought - I was told that the
wings are far bendier than 19 ones. Which may mean better energy
transfer or a worse ride, depending on where one flies...

Ian

[jcarlyle]

On Nov 29, 12:41 pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> > With regard to manual control hook-ups, I don't find them to be a
> > problem. It takes 20 seconds to connect the L'Hotelliers, and less
> > than a minute to pin them. You can easily see things if you put your
> > eye to the inspection hatch, and it's easy to manually verify through
> > pushing the button while pulling and twisting to verify that they're
> > properly engaged.
>
> must be you're not yet over 50 and into the bifocal user's group....with
> Popeye forearms going into tiny hatch opening connections are essentially in
> brail, with bright sun looking onto a white fuselage with a black hole to
> inspect the connections even making the connetion, say nothing of safety
> pins in almost guesswork... I know few who can say that they never missed a
> connection at least once....double and triple check them!

No, almost 60 years young, and I've been wearing bifocals for over 15
years. But then I don't look at the connections until I'm done. I just
grab the control rods and hook up the L'Hotelliers, followed by
putting the safety pins into their holes. I don't find it that hard...

As for checking, there I do look for proper connection and the pins by
placing my face on the fuselage and shielding my eyes from the outside
light. I also have someone else do a crtical assembly check, in which
I ask that they look for the pins and pull on them to make sure
they're engaged.

> > I can't speak from personal experience regarding the Pegasus, but the
> > previous owner of my ship bought one. For what it's worth, he said the
> > Pegasus flew like a truck in comparison to the ASW-19.
>
> must have been a really nice ASW19 and a really bad Pegasus! They are
> essentially the same with modified non-flapped 20 wings on the
> Pegasus.....The Pegasus probably then I guess flys more like a 20 than it
> does a 19.

Again, it's not my experience. The man flew the ASW-19 for 21 years,
and was definitely underwhelmed by the Pegasus. I guess it's as they
say, YMMV.

-John

[Cats]

On Nov 29, 5:17 pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> Cats wrote:
> > On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" > wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
> >> connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
> >> using a safety pin is not a problem.
> > <snip>
>
> > I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
> > 101a.
>
> >
> If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
> models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.

I've got what I've got - I'll get on with flying it! And I'm
suspecting I'll never need another glider, unless I manage to break it.

[Dan G]

On Nov 29, 5:16 pm, (Michel Talon) wrote:
> By the way, you can find the other manufacturers at the same place.

Thanks for the links. I've also got the Johnson flight tests for both
the 19 and the Cirrus, and again there isn't much between the two
(afaik Johnson never tested the Pegase). The 19 has a slight edge, or
would with equal wing loading. But IMHO handling is a factor in XC
speed - the easier and more forgiving a ship is to fly, the more you
can concentrate on tactics - and that can't be discerned from polars.


Dan

[Michel Talon]

Dan G > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 5:16 pm, (Michel Talon) wrote:
> > By the way, you can find the other manufacturers at the same place.
>
> Thanks for the links. I've also got the Johnson flight tests for both
> the 19 and the Cirrus, and again there isn't much between the two
> (afaik Johnson never tested the Pegase). The 19 has a slight edge, or
> would with equal wing loading. But IMHO handling is a factor in XC
> speed - the easier and more forgiving a ship is to fly, the more you
> can concentrate on tactics - and that can't be discerned from polars.
>
>
> Dan

You may have discovered my bias from my previous post, but as much as i
liked the ASW15, i disliked the ASW19. For me, it has bad handling,
doesn't climb well. I have flewn the Libelle, the Cirrus, the LS1, LS3,
LS4 and many others, and liked them, but not the 19. Of course this is
very dependant on each individual, because i am sure many people like
the 19. Anyways, objectively, the performance difference between the
Pegase and the 19 is the same as between the Discus and the Pegase. The
handling of the Pegase is "modern", same type as the LS4, etc. and quite
different from the handling of old style gliders. This is perhaps the
reason why someone characterized it as a truck ... Personnally i like
its stability, and it climbs very well. Also the air brakes are very
effective. Of course for an american pilot, it is probably not a good
choice due to the 3000 hours limit. I think it is a shame that Centrair
has handled this issue in such a deplorable way.

--

Michel TALON

[Eric Greenwell]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
>> Pegasus is a very good choice. >
>
> Agreed.>
>
> > It doesn't have any bad habits..>
>
> Only one, IMHO. It is a handful in a cross wind take off. And, after
> having seen 2 other 19's connect with solid objects after veering off to
> the side in a xwind departure, I suspect that my opinion is shared with
> others.
>
> In my 2 or 3 years as a part owner in a 19, I can't remember a single
> xwind take off that I really was happy with. OTOH, take offs in my LS6
> in similar conditions are "no brainers".

The ASW 19 (and the ASW 20) cross wind ability can often be improved by
starting the takeoff roll with the spoilers open. This might also work
for the Pegasus.

If it does help, then it's an easy matter to learn to prevent the
occasional heartburn it causes the line crew and the tow pilot when they
see the spoilers open at the start of the launch.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Cats wrote:
> On Nov 29, 5:17 pm, Martin Gregorie >
> wrote:
>> Cats wrote:
>>> On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" > wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
>>>> connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
>>>> using a safety pin is not a problem.
>>> <snip>
>>> I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
>>> 101a.
>> >
>> If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
>> models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.
>
> I've got what I've got - I'll get on with flying it! And I'm
> suspecting I'll never need another glider, unless I manage to break it.

Apologies, Cats - that was aimed at the OP, not you!

Our club's Peg 90 was my first step into high performance gliders after
the Junior and I really enjoyed flying it. I liked its feel and handling
very much and found it much more comfortable than a Discus for flights
beyond 3 hours or so. FWIW, I agree with you - if I owned a Peg I would
not be looking to change it. They climb nicely in weak lift and run well
with a bit of water on board.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Cats]

On Nov 29, 10:19 pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> Cats wrote:
> > On Nov 29, 5:17 pm, Martin Gregorie >
> > wrote:
> >> Cats wrote:
> >>> On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" > wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>>> A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
> >>>> connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
> >>>> using a safety pin is not a problem.
> >>> <snip>
> >>> I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
> >>> 101a.
>
> >> If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
> >> models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.
>
> > I've got what I've got - I'll get on with flying it! And I'm
> > suspecting I'll never need another glider, unless I manage to break it.
>
> Apologies, Cats - that was aimed at the OP, not you!
>
> Our club's Peg 90 was my first step into high performance gliders after
> the Junior and I really enjoyed flying it. I liked its feel and handling
> very much and found it much more comfortable than a Discus for flights
> beyond 3 hours or so.

As a fully-paid up member of the short-arse club, the Discus b at my
club isn't suitable. By the time I'm sat where I have a fighting
chance of getting the wheel back down my head is too near the canopy.
It's a pit the gear lever is on the port side - starboard would avoid
any possibility of confusing it with the airbrakes - but it's much
better. The other good thing about being short is that being well
forward in the cockpit improves the readward view - really tall people
must suffer in some gliders with the fuselage behind the canopy
limiting that view.

>FWIW, I agree with you - if I owned a Peg I would
> not be looking to change it. They climb nicely in weak lift and run well
> with a bit of water on board.

Since I fly in Scotland, I hope to fly it in wave pretty soon!

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> The ASW 19 (and the ASW 20) cross wind ability can often be improved by
> starting the takeoff roll with the spoilers open. This might also work
> for the Pegasus.
>
I think the Peg is the best of the three on this point. I've never flown
a 19, but it you examine a Peg and a 19 side by side, the Peg looks to
have bigger ailerons. I mostly winched the Peg, but when I did aero tow
it I didn't have any particular wing drop problems.

The 20 is easily the worst behaved with its tiny ailerons - even the
owners manual says they have so little bite that you should start the
takeoff roll in negative flap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

Sorry Martin,

the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any flapped
ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to drop a wing.

Bert

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> The 20 is easily the worst behaved with its tiny ailerons - even the
> owners manual says they have so little bite that you should start the
> takeoff roll in negative flap.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[Mike125]

In what way do the "modern" glass ships differ from the older ones in
the handling department? Why would that account for someones opinion
that the Peg handled like a truck? I would think that a modern ship
would handle better than an older one, not worse. My only time in a
glass single place is in my ASW 15 and I think the handing is fine. Of
course, my comparison gliders are two seaters (L13, 2-33, Grob) . Not
exactly nimble ships. Just how different is an LS4/Peg etc. from my
15? Roll rate? Lighter controls? Is it a case of not missing what I've
never had?

On the control connection issue, the ASW 15 is not automatic and
getting those safety pins in was a real pain. I put the safety sleeves
on and now its a non-issue. I check the connections at least 3-4 times
and ALWAYS do a PCC. Manual hook ups is not a reason for me to cross a
ship my list of potential new (to me) gliders.

Mike
ASW 15 but in the market

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Bert Willing wrote:
> Sorry Martin,
>
> the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
> Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any flapped
> ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to drop a wing.
>
Yes, I know the flaps deflect half as far as the ailerons, but there's
still very little bite below 30-35 kts even with a notch of reflex flap
and the ground roll felt very busy at first.

I had a wing drop or two among my first flights in my 20 - something I
never experienced on the club's Peg - or the Williams Soaring one
either. I don't recall much difference in the weather conditions during
those launches either - certainly nothing worth commenting on.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Bert Willing wrote:
>> Sorry Martin,
>>
>> the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
>> Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any
>> flapped ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to
>> drop a wing.
>>
> Yes, I know the flaps deflect half as far as the ailerons, but there's
> still very little bite below 30-35 kts even with a notch of reflex flap
> and the ground roll felt very busy at first.

My ASW 20 C had plenty of "bite" by 20 knots - it was only the first 100
feet or so that might have a wing drop.

>
> I had a wing drop or two among my first flights in my 20 - something I
> never experienced on the club's Peg - or the Williams Soaring one
> either. I don't recall much difference in the weather conditions during
> those launches either - certainly nothing worth commenting on.

Some flapped gliders have a higher angle of attack when sitting on the
ground, compared to similar unflapped gliders. This can cause the tip to
stall more easily in the "neutral" flap position, but using negative
flap improves the situation. It also reduces the effects of crosswinds.

Why a higher angle of attack? One reason is to allow a slower touch down
speed with main and tail touching at the same time; another is a longer
gear extension can provide more pilot protection in an off field landing
(more clearance), and more protection in a very hard or crash landing
(more room to absorb energy).

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org