Questions on landing at a towered airport

[Tman]

I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
from this NG :).

When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few miles
out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

* Just to confirm what I think is true about what the controller wants me to
do: Fly as directly as possible (in the absence of other guidance, not
crossing the field or other downwind / upwind legs, and practicing
see/avoid ) to a point that is 3 miles away from the extended centerline,
and will intersect the extended centerline on a base leg to leave a
comfortable, but not longish final approach path, say a 1 mile final. E.g.
1 mile from the numbers on final, and 3 miles from the extended centerline
at a right angle, effectively a little over 3 miles straight line from the
numbers.

* Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
"cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as reasonably
as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?

* Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing in
the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop. At
1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport -- I'd
rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule that
says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on the
pattern?

* Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into a
Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and with
controllers going to serve me quite well? The two things I have heard is a)
don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll probably get
vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier), and b) brush
up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance, since that will be
more probable....

Appreciate the thoughts and opinions of others with more experience!
T

[Ron Natalie]

Tman wrote:

> * Just to confirm what I think is true about what the controller wants me to
> do: Fly as directly as possible (in the absence of other guidance, not
> crossing the field or other downwind / upwind legs, and practicing
> see/avoid ) to a point that is 3 miles away from the extended centerline,
> and will intersect the extended centerline on a base leg to leave a
> comfortable, but not longish final approach path, say a 1 mile final. E.g.
> 1 mile from the numbers on final, and 3 miles from the extended centerline
> at a right angle, effectively a little over 3 miles straight line from the
> numbers.

Well, you have the sense right. It's an extension of the NORMAL BASE
LEG that goes three miles out (as if you had just turned from a three
mile wide downwind). The only issue is base leg shouldn't lead to
a one mile final.

> * Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
> "cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
> with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as reasonably
> as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?

I wouldn't. Perhaps he intends to depart traffic ahead of your landing.

>
> * Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
> 3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
> which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
> squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing in
> the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop. At
> 1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport -- I'd
> rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule that
> says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on the
> pattern?

No.

>
> * Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
> fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
> circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into a
> Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and with
> controllers going to serve me quite well? The two things I have heard is a)
> don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll probably get
> vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier), and b) brush
> up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance, since that will be
> more probable....\

If they give you a reporting point you don't know where it is, confess
and they will give you something airport relative or just a vector.
Be prepared for vectors, but also be prepared to find the airport on
your own at any point in the arrival. You're just as likely to be
told to enter a downwind or base as being vectored to final but it
happens both ways. In absence of other instruction, I fly straight
for the numbers. The class B/C runways are usually sufficiently long
that I can turn base-to-final even at the threshold and still land and
be off by the first taxiway.

When you call up for departure, have your pencil ready. They will
issue you frequently a route (fly runway heading) an altitude (maintain
VFR at or below 3000 feet) a departure frequency (departure frequency
125.05) and a transponder code (squawk 0423) with possibly no warning.

As for wake turbulance, stay above their glide path on approach,
take off and if possible turn before crossing there's on departure.
You can always request a longer delay than standard. I'd rather
depart behind a turboprop than a 767 (usually Dulles figures this
out when sending out to taxi and gets that sequencing already).

>

[Jon Woellhaf]

"Tman" asked
> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
> miles out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

I frequently get this at KBJC, Jeffco -- oops -- Metro, Denver, Colorado. A
few years ago I stopped guessing and called the tower (on a land line) and
asked what they expected. I was told they expected me to fly a right base
and turn to a three mile final.

[Bob Gardner]

Ron has it exactly right. The only thing that I would add is that you will
find local variations...don't expect all towers to do things in the same
way. Tower managers run little fiefdoms in their own way. The specifics of
"Report x mile base" are not covered in the Air Traffic Control Handbook, so
there is no official document you can rely on (although I have a letter from
FAA HQ backing up what Ron said).

Bob Gardner

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
>I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
>opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
>from this NG :).
>
> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
> miles out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.
>
> * Just to confirm what I think is true about what the controller wants me
> to do: Fly as directly as possible (in the absence of other guidance, not
> crossing the field or other downwind / upwind legs, and practicing
> see/avoid ) to a point that is 3 miles away from the extended centerline,
> and will intersect the extended centerline on a base leg to leave a
> comfortable, but not longish final approach path, say a 1 mile final.
> E.g. 1 mile from the numbers on final, and 3 miles from the extended
> centerline at a right angle, effectively a little over 3 miles straight
> line from the numbers.
>
> * Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
> "cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
> with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as
> reasonably as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?
>
> * Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
> 3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
> which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
> squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing
> in the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop.
> At 1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport --
> I'd rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule
> that says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on
> the pattern?
>
> * Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
> fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
> circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into
> a Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and
> with controllers going to serve me quite well? The two things I have
> heard is a) don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll
> probably get vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier),
> and b) brush up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance,
> since that will be more probable....
>
> Appreciate the thoughts and opinions of others with more experience!
> T
>

[Newps]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> Ron has it exactly right. The only thing that I would add is that you
> will find local variations...don't expect all towers to do things in the
> same way. Tower managers run little fiefdoms in their own way. The
> specifics of "Report x mile base" are not covered in the Air Traffic
> Control Handbook, so there is no official document you can rely on
> (although I have a letter from FAA HQ backing up what Ron said).


When I worked at a VFR tower with no radar that's what we expected too.
We also knew that no pilot knows what three miles is. So you get what
you get.

[Jay Honeck]

> * Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
> fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
> circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into a
> Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and with
> controllers going to serve me quite well?

Ron has covered your other points quite well, so I won't add anything
more there.

To answer your concern about landing at a Class C airport, in the
Midwest Class D doesn't usually have radar control. This means that
they are sequencing you visually, just like in the old movies from the
1930s, by using a guy with binoculars -- and not much else. This
means they'll tell you stuff like "report a 3-mile left base" -- cuz
that's all they CAN do.

Class C, however, has radar, which means they (usually, not always)
are able to issue vectors. They will tell you stuff like "Fly a
heading of 230" -- because they CAN.

In my experience, Class C is usually much easier to deal with than
Class D, precisely because the controller knows (and acts like he
knows) where everyone REALLY is, rather than relying on binoculars and
(often inaccurate) position reports. As a result, they are much more
positive with their control, telling you what to do and when to do
it.

As a newbie I found this control somewhat intimidating, for fear of
messing something up. Now, I find it easier, because all you really
have to do is follow their directions. It's like the difference
between driving in a strange city with directions and a map, or doing
it with just with the map. Both are possible, but good directions are
sure helpful.

>The two things I have heard is a)
> don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll probably get
> vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier), and b) brush
> up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance, since that will be
> more probable....

Yep, you don't call out your position in Class C airspace. They
should know your position as well as you do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
> Class C, however, has radar, which means they (usually, not always)
> are able to issue vectors.

Always when landing at the main airport.

[Maxwell]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
Then everyone help me out here too. In the same situation I always aim for a
point that with allow for a straight final, usually at least 1/4 to 1/2 mile
long, not the numbers. Is this considered in bad taste?

[Jay Honeck]

> Then everyone help me out here too. In the same situation I always aim for a
> point that with allow for a straight final, usually at least 1/4 to 1/2 mile
> long, not the numbers. Is this considered in bad taste?

I don't know about bad taste, but at Class C airports my goal is
always to get my plane on the ground and out of the way ASAP within
the absolute framework of safety.

Therefore, if the runway is 8000 feet long (as it often is, at a Class
C airport), I aim for the numbers on base leg, and forego the long
final. If I'm uncomfortable with the runway length, I do a more
regular pattern. (All of this is presuming that there isn't a
Citation ahead of you on a 5-mile final, or something.)

You're PIC. In the absence of specific instructions, do what you
think is safe.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
...
..
>
> To answer your concern about landing at a Class C airport, in the
> Midwest Class D doesn't usually have radar control. This means that

You know I always thought so to, but out here in CT, I know that HFD Class D
(Hartford-Brainard) must have radar. Cause the controller tells me to ident
now and then -- seems to be that they must have radar, eh? Also, the BDL
approach controllers often hand me off to HFD tower with a non-1200 squawk
code. Seems that the Sectional charts have a bold circled "R" for those
Class D airports that have radar (?) -- HFD does not have that "R", but the
things i mentioned above sure hint towards having some kind of radar
visibility.

That said, they've always given me "report xxxx" position report request
when inbound, never got vectors from them....
T

[Newps]

Tman wrote:

>
> That said, they've always given me "report xxxx" position report request
> when inbound, never got vectors from them....

They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers. Pretty
much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have a scope in
the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and there's no radar for
that smaller airport to have in the first place. And some airports
bought their own radar and had it added to the system. That's happened
here in Montana.

[Jay Honeck]

> They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers. Pretty
> much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have a scope in
> the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and there's no radar for
> that smaller airport to have in the first place. And some airports
> bought their own radar and had it added to the system. That's happened
> here in Montana.

An aside: Lake Lawn Lodge (in Wisconsin) actually had their own radar
on the roof of their FBO. It looked like a boat radar (and I never
saw it in operation -- by the time I started flying in there, they
were on their way out of business), and I don't know what they could
actually SEE with it -- but it's the only uncontrolled field I've ever
seen with radar!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Yes - I have a name[_2_]]

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
> You know I always thought so to, but out here in CT, I know that HFD Class
D
> (Hartford-Brainard) must have radar.

2 Miles north and you're inside Bradley's 10 mile ring. Bradley has radar.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers.
>> Pretty much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have
>> a scope in the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and
>> there's no radar for that smaller airport to have in the first
>> place. And some airports bought their own radar and had it added to
>> the system. That's happened here in Montana.
>
> An aside: Lake Lawn Lodge (in Wisconsin) actually had their own radar
> on the roof of their FBO. It looked like a boat radar (and I never
> saw it in operation -- by the time I started flying in there, they
> were on their way out of business), and I don't know what they could
> actually SEE with it -- but it's the only uncontrolled field I've ever
> seen with radar!

It was probably weather radar. And it was probably a marine radar.

[BT]

The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
centerline... so I'll let that go.

But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left Base
for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a long 3
mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut the pattern
short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through the traffic
pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.

This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you are
a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around and
clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has split
the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R freq.. and
they are standing side by side.

Yes,, it gets that busy at this Class D tower.

BT

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
>I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
>opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
>from this NG :).
>
> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
> miles out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.
>
> * Just to confirm what I think is true about what the controller wants me
> to do: Fly as directly as possible (in the absence of other guidance, not
> crossing the field or other downwind / upwind legs, and practicing
> see/avoid ) to a point that is 3 miles away from the extended centerline,
> and will intersect the extended centerline on a base leg to leave a
> comfortable, but not longish final approach path, say a 1 mile final.
> E.g. 1 mile from the numbers on final, and 3 miles from the extended
> centerline at a right angle, effectively a little over 3 miles straight
> line from the numbers.
>
> * Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
> "cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
> with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as
> reasonably as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?
>
> * Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
> 3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
> which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
> squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing
> in the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop.
> At 1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport --
> I'd rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule
> that says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on
> the pattern?
>
> * Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
> fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
> circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into
> a Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and
> with controllers going to serve me quite well? The two things I have
> heard is a) don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll
> probably get vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier),
> and b) brush up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance,
> since that will be more probable....
>
> Appreciate the thoughts and opinions of others with more experience!
> T
>

[Tman]

OK, well given the variety of opinion on these replies from the NG -- and
i'd suspect variety of local custom-- I'd think that 12R controller had
better clear up if he means a 3 mile final, or a 3 mile base leg.... or he's
gonna be "all over" people all day.
You guys are giving me the mind that it is a good idea to read something
back like below when working with an unfamiliar towered field just to avoid
any confusion at all... at least it gives everyone a chance to sort out
misunderstandings early on:

Tower: "report a 3 mile left base runway 23".
Readback: "copy that 3 mile left base, for a 1/2 mile final, 23, 12F".

BTW, you guys on the NG are great with the different perspectives and
opinions. i don't get this richness from the local CFI's and hangar crowd
:)
T


"BT" > wrote in message
...
> The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
> runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
> centerline... so I'll let that go.
>
> But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left Base
> for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a long 3
> mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut the
> pattern short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through the
> traffic pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.
>
> This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
> Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you
> are a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around
> and clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has
> split the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R freq..
> and they are standing side by side.
>

[BT]

I think you cracked the code.. if in doubt.. clarify..
Welcome Jr Birdman..

kidding aside.. are your local CFIs new to the game? or oldsters that really
have not flown much to other locations?

That is one good thing about the NG... you'll get as many varied responses
as there are options..

I even had the situation where I was on "2 mile left base for 12R" again
coming from the Northeast and now traffic pattern to get around to get to
the "other side". The Tower cleared me to land.. So I acknowledge and
continued on my base to intercept final at about 1.5 miles out and was
working my altitude accordingly.

Because I did not turn towards the runway.. the Tower controller quickly
called and stated that he needed me to turn toward the runway now!! .. he
was very explicit..a s it turned out he was trying to sequence me in front
of other traffic so.. I did just that.. I turned direct to the numbers..
sped up a bit and got the plane down (it's an Arrow, it was easy), I was
about 30 degrees off runway heading.. and I turned to line up in the flare
and still made the mid field turn off.

Believe me when I say these discussions come up with the Tower Cheif at our
local Aviation Assoc monthly meetings.

BT
KVGT
33yrs in Aviation


"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
> OK, well given the variety of opinion on these replies from the NG -- and
> i'd suspect variety of local custom-- I'd think that 12R controller had
> better clear up if he means a 3 mile final, or a 3 mile base leg.... or
> he's gonna be "all over" people all day.
> You guys are giving me the mind that it is a good idea to read something
> back like below when working with an unfamiliar towered field just to
> avoid any confusion at all... at least it gives everyone a chance to sort
> out misunderstandings early on:
>
> Tower: "report a 3 mile left base runway 23".
> Readback: "copy that 3 mile left base, for a 1/2 mile final, 23, 12F".
>
> BTW, you guys on the NG are great with the different perspectives and
> opinions. i don't get this richness from the local CFI's and hangar crowd
> :)
> T
>
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
>> runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
>> centerline... so I'll let that go.
>>
>> But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left
>> Base for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a
>> long 3 mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut
>> the pattern short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through
>> the traffic pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.
>>
>> This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
>> Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you
>> are a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around
>> and clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has
>> split the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R
>> freq.. and they are standing side by side.
>>
>
>

[F. Baum]

On Nov 28, 4:03 am, "Tman" <N/A> wrote:
> I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
> opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
> from this NG :).

Conflicting opinions are my specialty.
>
> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few miles
> out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
you do what you want.
>
> * Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
> "cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
> with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as reasonably
> as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?

This is a hint to turn to the downwind and extend it out so far that
the student pilot in the 150 behind you is logging cross country time.
>
> * Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
> 3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
> which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent

Plan the decent to be at full flaps top of the white arc and power off
every time. This doesnt do much for proficency but it gives your
passengers a heck of a thrill ride.

>
> * Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
> fair amount of experience at Class D fields.

B, D and C is pretty much all the same. A few things to remember if
ATC gives you a number to call, First, deny everything. Second, make
counter accusations. And third, demand an apology. Be polite but
insistant.


The two things I have heard is a)
> don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll probably get
> vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier), and b) brush
> up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance, since that will be
> more probable....

I dont think your plane is going to generate enough wake turbulence to
be a problem, so dont worry about it.
>
F Baum

[BT]

>> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
>> miles
>> out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.
>
> The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
> closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
> back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
> you do what you want.
>>

No..
The tower will know you are an idiot.. along with everyone else on the
frequency.. and after a few tower calls to make sure you have the
directions.. and keep giving the wrong readback.. the tower will ask you to
exit the airspace.. too busy for igits tying up the frequency.. he's got 6
solo students in the pattern with better radio discipline.. and parallel
runways

but then as I read the rest of your posting.. I do hope it was all in jest..

BT

[Ron Natalie]

BT wrote:
>>> When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
>>> miles
>>> out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.
>> The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
>> closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
>> back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
>> you do what you want.
>
> No..
> The tower will know you are an idiot.. along with everyone else on the
> frequency.. and after a few tower calls to make sure you have the
> directions.. and keep giving the wrong readback.. the tower will ask you to
> exit the airspace.. too busy for igits tying up the frequency.. he's got 6
> solo students in the pattern with better radio discipline.. and parallel
> runways
>
Agreed. First off, the FAA has decided that the failure of ATC to
correct a erroneous read back does not absolve the pilot from disobeying
an ATC clearance.

Second, such subterfuge is stupid. If you want a different runway,
ask. ATC will cooperate if it's not inconvenient. It happens every
day.

PCT: Navion 5327K expect straight in approach to runway 1R.
27K: Any chance of 1L?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Agreed. First off, the FAA has decided that the failure of ATC to correct
> a erroneous read back does not absolve the pilot from disobeying
> an ATC clearance.
>

They have? When?

[Tman]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>I think you cracked the code.. if in doubt.. clarify..
> Welcome Jr Birdman..
>
> kidding aside.. are your local CFIs new to the game? or oldsters that
> really have not flown much to other locations?
>
> That is one good thing about the NG... you'll get as many varied responses
> as there are options..
>

Yeah my CFI is kinda funny. He's actually posted to this thread. (F.
Baum - a little lower on this thread ). Kinda high on the street smarts,
but not the academic parts of flying!

T

[Rob]

Tman wrote:
> * Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
> 3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
> which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
> squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing in
> the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop. At
> 1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport -- I'd
> rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule that
> says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on the
> pattern?

I see lots of good answers to your other questions in this thread but
only one quick "no" regarding this one. Safely gliding to the runway
is a consideration, but note that it's _much_ easier to see traffic
against the sky than against the clutter of the ground. Staying lower
will enable you to better see traffic in the pattern. In the event of
an unexpected power loss, a safe off-airport landing is for the most
part just as positive an outcome as a safe on-airport landing. I go a
little lower than you suggest, usually about 1000 AGL which is often
also TPA, for the good traffic visibility from a few miles out, as
long as I have options (not necessarily the runway) if the unexpected
should happen.

-R