Russian Navy going back to the Med

[Tiger]

Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
guy is worth keeping a eye on.


Yahoo! News
Russian navy to start sorties in Mediterranean

By Guy FaulconbridgeWed Dec 5, 4:16 PM ET

Russia said on Wednesday it would start the first major navy sortie into
the Mediterranean since Soviet times, the latest move by an increasingly
assertive Moscow to demonstrate its military might.

"The aim of the sorties is to ensure a naval presence in tactically
important regions of the world ocean," Defense Minister Anatoly
Serdyukov told President Vladimir Putin, who wished the sailors well.
The rest of the meeting was closed.

Serdyukov said 11 ships, including an aircraft carrier, would take part
in the sortie and be backed up by 47 aircraft -- including strategic
bombers.

Buoyed by huge oil revenues, Russia under Putin has been boosting
military spending while at the same time using diplomacy to broaden
Moscow's influence.

Earlier this year Putin announced that long-range strategic bombers
would resume patrols around the world and Russia's long-range nuclear
forces have test-fired new missiles.

But analysts say the navy, once the focus of national pride and symbol
of the Soviet Union's military might, is still reeling from more than a
decade of underfunding.

A series of accidents -- such as the sinking of the Kursk nuclear
submarine in 2000 -- have hurt the Russian navy's reputation at home and
abroad.

Serdyukov said the navy's flagship aircraft carrier, the Admiral
Kuznetsov, and anti-submarine ships had set out for the Mediterranean on
Wednesday from the Northern Fleet's base in Severomorsk, in the Arctic
Circle.

Black Sea fleet ships and aircraft support would meet them in the
Mediterranean. He said military exercises would be held during the
sorties and that the group would visit six foreign states. He did not
name them.

He also said Northern Fleet would make sorties into the northern Atlantic.

Russia has long been talking about reviving a permanent naval base in
the Mediterranean. During the Cold War, the Soviet navy had a permanent
presence on the Mediterranean, using the Syrian port of Tartus as a
supply point.

(Editing by Elizabeth Piper)

Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or
redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the
prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any
errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance
thereon.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback

[Ray O'Hara[_2_]]

"Tiger" > wrote in message
...
> Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> guy is worth keeping a eye on.

it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
union.
people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because the
military is soaking up all the assets of the state.

[Mr.Smartypants[_2_]]

On Dec 6, 12:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> "Tiger" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> union.
> people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because the
> military is soaking up all the assets of the state.



That's right. Just ask the American poor.

[Ray O'Hara[_2_]]

"Mr.Smartypants" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 6, 12:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> > "Tiger" > wrote in message
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear
bomber
> > > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
> >
> > it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> > union.
> > people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because
the
> > military is soaking up all the assets of the state.
>
>
>
> That's right. Just ask the American poor.


american poor are better off than canadian poor and american indians are
better off than frostback indians.

[Tiger]

Mr.Smartypants wrote:

>
>
>
> That's right. Just ask the American poor.


Ah, the guns vs butter debate. Only problem is, in America we can and
have lots of both. While Poor exist. We have had untold billions
earmarked for dealing with the problem. Job aid, food aid, housing,
education, energy aid, etc. Anyway, this is way way off topic......

[Vaughn Simon]

"Ray O'Hara" > wrote in message
...
>
> it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> union.

Yes, but now they are going to try it with their coffers full of
petrodollars. It should work better that way.

Vaughn

[eatfastnoodle]

On Dec 6, 1:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> "Tiger" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> union.
> people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because the
> military is soaking up all the assets of the state.

Well, he got the money, he got the political environment, he got the
power, I would do the same thing if I were Putin. Accusing Putin of
sham election reeks of ideological prejudice. As if any elected non-
western oriented leader must be a product of election fraud. I'm no
expert, but comparing to Russia under Yeltsin, Russia in 2007 is much
richer, much stronger and much more respected, or feared if you would
like to call it that way, Chechnya is largely pacified(human right
violation or not, he did it, while freely elected George Bush could
not even think about lowering Iraqi violence to the level of
Chechnya), I would vote for him if I were a Russian voter.

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 6, 3:57 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> "Mr.Smartypants" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 6, 12:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> > > "Tiger" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear
> > > > bomber back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties;
> > > > this guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> > > it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> > > union.
> > > people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because
> the
> > > military is soaking up all the assets of the state.
>
> > That's right. Just ask the American poor.
>
> american poor are better off than canadian poor

Well, thats ignorant, as 100% of Canadian poor people HAVE full
Medical
Insurance... 100% of US poor folks do NOT.

So, you're wrong. Deal with it.

> and american indians are better off than frostback indians

Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
are...

idiots.

Andre

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
> Serdyukov said the navy's flagship aircraft carrier, the Admiral
> Kuznetsov, and anti-submarine ships had set out for the Mediterranean on
> Wednesday from the Northern Fleet's base in Severomorsk, in the Arctic
> Circle.
>
> Black Sea fleet ships and aircraft support would meet them in the
> Mediterranean. He said military exercises would be held during the
> sorties and that the group would visit six foreign states. He did not
> name them.

I guess the USN should warm up the water distillation plants again....

[Gernot Hassenpflug[_2_]]

Andre Lieven > writes:


> Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
> the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
> are...
>
> idiots.

And that goes pretty much for any nation. Some of course have to be
right, though, even if they don't know it! :-)
--
BOFH excuse #175:

OS swapped to disk

[Eunometic]

On Dec 7, 6:01 am, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> "Tiger" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the old
> union. people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods because the
> military is soaking up all the assets of the state.

Russia is riding high on the resources and mineral boom mainly oil and
its consumer economy may now be more efficient so it can afford to
blow some of its money. Having said that if there is a collapse in
demand the people will suffer: not just ques for the wrong goods but
unemployment.

It was the US that was contemplating imperial over reach.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Dec 6, 12:46 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> Yahoo! News
> Russian navy to start sorties in Mediterranean
>


I presume someone in this, sci.military.naval, group will keep track
of how many ships do this act, how long they stay on station and how
many are sent home in some form of casualty.

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 6, 10:48 pm, Gernot Hassenpflug > wrote:
> Andre Lieven > writes:
> > Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
> > the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
> > are...
>
> > idiots.
>
> And that goes pretty much for any nation. Some of course have to be
> right, though, even if they don't know it! :-)

Thats true, though which other nations do it so routinely as the US ?

I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
response
was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.

Andre

[Rob Arndt[_2_]]

On Dec 7, 4:36�am, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> On Dec 6, 12:46 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> > Yahoo! News
> > Russian navy to start sorties in Mediterranean
>
> I presume someone in this, sci.military.naval, group will keep track
> of how many ships do this act, how long they stay on station and how
> many are sent home in some form of casualty.

I'm just wondering how on earth the Russians scraped all that rust off
their buckets that have sat for over a decade... or are they just
sending 1-2 ships? I hope they don't send any of their submerged
Chernobyls!

Rob

[Jack Linthicum]

On Dec 7, 3:32 pm, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> On Dec 7, 4:36�am, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 6, 12:46 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> > > Yahoo! News
> > > Russian navy to start sorties in Mediterranean
>
> > I presume someone in this, sci.military.naval, group will keep track
> > of how many ships do this act, how long they stay on station and how
> > many are sent home in some form of casualty.
>
> I'm just wondering how on earth the Russians scraped all that rust off
> their buckets that have sat for over a decade... or are they just
> sending 1-2 ships? I hope they don't send any of their submerged
> Chernobyls!
>
> Rob

http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2007/12/russian-navy-deploying-cvbg-to.html

According to Russian media sources, the naval battle group will be
centered around the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and will
include 3 warship escorts, two of which are described as anti-
submarine escorts. Additionally seven support ships, 40+ planes, and
10 helicopters will be deployed with the battle group.

This is the largest Russian naval deployment since the Russian Navy
deployed in 1999 in response to the Kosovo conflict, which was the
only major Russian Navy deployment since the end of the cold war of
this size. The deployment of this battle group represents a major
undertaking by the Russian Navy. In a way, we see this deployment as
representative of the past, present, and future of the Russian Navy.

For perspective, the condition of the Russian Fleet was considered so
deteriorated only a decade ago that it was legitimate to assume the
entire fleet would eventually be scrapped. To deploy the 4 warships
and 7 support ships, the Russian Navy appears to be pulling from the
Northern, Black, and Baltic fleets. At present this would appear to
represent the maximum power projection capability of the Russian Navy,
and considering the Russian Navy budget is focused on building
strategic ballistic missile submarines, it appears it may represent
the high end of power projection for the next several years.

The naval battle group will sail down the Norwegian coast and pass
west of Great Britain before passing through the Strait of Gibraltar
where it will conduct exercises in the Mediterranean until February of
2008.

[Richard Casady]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
> wrote:

>I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
>the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
>response
>was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.

The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.

Casady

[Jack Linthicum]

On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> > wrote:
> >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> >response
> >was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> Casady

and the other season, July

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> > wrote:
> >I can recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.

The silly part of such a statement an be seen in the fact that there
is
a very large winter sports/recreation industry, and that parts of
Canada
are, in fact warmer, than parts of the US, even if we leave out
Alaska.

Give me a choice of North Dakota or Vancouver, BC, I'll be happy to be
warm in Canada...

Andre

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> > > wrote:
> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> > Casady
>
> and the other season, July

The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
snow on the ground in Ottawa.

Go, global warming ! <g>

Andre

[Bill Kambic]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:04:59 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
> wrote:

>On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >I can recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
>> >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
>> >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>>
>> The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
>The silly part of such a statement an be seen in the fact that there
>is
>a very large winter sports/recreation industry, and that parts of
>Canada
>are, in fact warmer, than parts of the US, even if we leave out
>Alaska.
>
>Give me a choice of North Dakota or Vancouver, BC, I'll be happy to be
>warm in Canada...

Yeah...but...we got South Florida and South Texas. Lots of Canadian
"snowbirds" down there, eh?!?!?!?!?!?! :-)

[Jim E]

"Tiger" > wrote in message
...
> Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this guy
> is worth keeping a eye on.
>
>
> Yahoo! News
> Russian navy to start sorties in Mediterranean
>
> By Guy FaulconbridgeWed Dec 5, 4:16 PM ET
>
> Russia said on Wednesday it would start the first major navy sortie into
> the Mediterranean since Soviet times, the latest move by an increasingly
> assertive Moscow to demonstrate its military might.
>
> "The aim of the sorties is to ensure a naval presence in tactically
> important regions of the world ocean," Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov
> told President Vladimir Putin, who wished the sailors well. The rest of
> the meeting was closed.
>
> Serdyukov said 11 ships, including an aircraft carrier, would take part in
> the sortie and be backed up by 47 aircraft -- including strategic bombers.
>
> Buoyed by huge oil revenues, Russia under Putin has been boosting military
> spending while at the same time using diplomacy to broaden Moscow's
> influence.
>
> Earlier this year Putin announced that long-range strategic bombers would
> resume patrols around the world and Russia's long-range nuclear forces
> have test-fired new missiles.
>
> But analysts say the navy, once the focus of national pride and symbol of
> the Soviet Union's military might, is still reeling from more than a
> decade of underfunding.
>
> A series of accidents -- such as the sinking of the Kursk nuclear
> submarine in 2000 -- have hurt the Russian navy's reputation at home and
> abroad.
>
> Serdyukov said the navy's flagship aircraft carrier, the Admiral
> Kuznetsov, and anti-submarine ships had set out for the Mediterranean on
> Wednesday from the Northern Fleet's base in Severomorsk, in the Arctic
> Circle.
>
> Black Sea fleet ships and aircraft support would meet them in the
> Mediterranean. He said military exercises would be held during the sorties
> and that the group would visit six foreign states. He did not name them.
>
> He also said Northern Fleet would make sorties into the northern Atlantic.
>
> Russia has long been talking about reviving a permanent naval base in the
> Mediterranean. During the Cold War, the Soviet navy had a permanent
> presence on the Mediterranean, using the Syrian port of Tartus as a supply
> point.
>
> (Editing by Elizabeth Piper)
>
> Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or
> redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the
> prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any
> errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance
> thereon.
> Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
> Questions or Comments
> Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback
>

So how many ships did they get somewhat seaworthy this year, over four?



Jim E



Jim E

[Jim E]

"Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 6, 3:57 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
>> "Mr.Smartypants" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > On Dec 6, 12:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
>> > > "Tiger" > wrote in message
>>
>> > ...
>>
>> > > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military
>> > > > power
>> > > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear
>> > > > bomber back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force
>> > > > treaties;
>> > > > this guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>>
>> > > it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the
>> > > old
>> > > union.
>> > > people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods
>> > > because
>> the
>> > > military is soaking up all the assets of the state.
>>
>> > That's right. Just ask the American poor.
>>
>> american poor are better off than canadian poor
>
> Well, thats ignorant, as 100% of Canadian poor people HAVE full
> Medical
> Insurance... 100% of US poor folks do NOT.
>
> So, you're wrong. Deal with it.
>
>> and american indians are better off than frostback indians
>
> Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
> the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
> are...
>
> idiots.
>
> Andre

But we Americans get to keep a wee bit of our income.
We do not donate 80% to the socialists to feed and clothe the worthless.


Jim E

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 8, 2:44 am, "Jim Ignorant" > splattered:
> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 6, 3:57 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> >> "Mr.Smartypants" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > On Dec 6, 12:01 pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> >> > > "Tiger" > wrote in message
>
> >> > ...
>
> >> > > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military
> >> > > > power
> >> > > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear
> >> > > > bomber back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force
> >> > > > treaties; this guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> >> > > it was trying to keep up militarily last time that bankrupted the
> >> > > old union.
> >> > > people aren't going to like being in long lines again for goods
> >> > > because the military is soaking up all the assets of the state.
>
> >> > That's right. Just ask the American poor.
>
> >> american poor are better off than canadian poor
>
> > Well, thats ignorant, as 100% of Canadian poor people HAVE full
> > Medical Insurance... 100% of US poor folks do NOT.
>
> > So, you're wrong. Deal with it.
>
> >> and american indians are better off than frostback indians
>
> > Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
> > the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
> > are...
>
> > idiots.
>
> > Andre
>
> But we Americans get to keep a wee bit of our income.

After you pay your taxes AND your medical outlays, you keep LESS
than Canadians do...

> We do not donate 80% to the socialists to feed and clothe the worthless.

No, you let thieves steal 80% and give it to multinationals...

Hows that workin' for ya ? Canada has a budget SURPLUS, a POSITIVE
balance of trade, medical care for ALL, and a SHRINKING debt.

Match our credentials, ace.

Andre

[Don Harstad]

"Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 8, 2:44 am, "Jim Ignorant" > splattered:
>> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
> Hows that workin' for ya ? Canada has a budget SURPLUS, a POSITIVE
> balance of trade, medical care for ALL, and a SHRINKING debt.
>
> Match our credentials, ace.

Nothing is forever. We had virtually the same thing nine years ago. If the
globe is really warming, for example, you're going to need an air force and
a navy of considerably greater proportions than you have now. Unless, of
course, you ask for help, which we will be glad to provide even though we
may have a budget deficit, negative balance of trade, partial medical care,
and an increasing debt. What are friends for, after all?

Don H.

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 9, 3:11 am, "Don Harstad" > wrote:
> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 8, 2:44 am, "Jim Ignorant" > splattered:
> >> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
> > Hows that workin' for ya ? Canada has a budget SURPLUS, a POSITIVE
> > balance of trade, medical care for ALL, and a SHRINKING debt.
>
> > Match our credentials, ace.
>
> Nothing is forever. We had virtually the same thing nine years ago.

Not the positive balance of trade, nor the medical care for ALL.

Try again.

> If the
> globe is really warming, for example, you're going to need an air force and
> a navy of considerably greater proportions than you have now.

Why ? Is the US preparing to aggressively invade more places ?
It should stop doing that, as it's reputation is crap because of it.

> Unless, of
> course, you ask for help, which we will be glad to provide even though we
> may have a budget deficit, negative balance of trade, partial medical care,
> and an increasing debt. What are friends for, after all?

Oh, I don't know, lets ask that again, AFTER the US returns the $5
BILLION that it STOLE in violation of NAFTA and FTA... See " softwood
lumber "...

The modern US: A nation NOT to be trusted.

Andre

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
>> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
>> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
>> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>>
>> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>>
>> > Casady
>>
>> and the other season, July
>
> The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
> snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
> Go, global warming ! <g>

Horse feathers, Andre. It was a mild winter but, trust me, it snowed. We did,
however, have a green Christmas and New Year's Day. The skateway on the Rideau
did not open till mid-January. This winter has been refreshingly cool. Camp
Fortune opened its first ski run in November, and I suspect the skateway will
open before New Year's. We already have a foot of snow on the ground that
looks set to stay and Sawmill Creek has frozen over for the first time in
yonks.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 9, 1:19 pm, "Andrew Chaplin" >
wrote:
> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> >> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> >> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> >> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> >> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> >> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> >> > Casady
>
> >> and the other season, July
>
> > The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
> > snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
> > Go, global warming ! <g>
>
> Horse feathers, Andre. It was a mild winter but, trust me, it snowed. We did,
> however, have a green Christmas and New Year's Day.

My bad, that sentence of mine was supposed to end with "...at
Christmas. "

Ocasionally, Google groups eats a word, here or there...

>The skateway on the Rideau
> did not open till mid-January. This winter has been refreshingly cool. Camp
> Fortune opened its first ski run in November, and I suspect the skateway will
> open before New Year's. We already have a foot of snow on the ground that
> looks set to stay and Sawmill Creek has frozen over for the first time in
> yonks.

I know, and thats why I'm with my wife, who rather prefers Florida at
this
time of year. I may need to fly back next month, to do some business,
and
keep the house in shape, along with reloading VCRs, and so on.

But, prior to this year, the last hard winter that we've had in Ottawa
was
the one in '93-'94, with the Boxing Day kicking off a record breaking
cold
snap that didn't end until mid Jan 1994.

Since then, not so much. Even the Ottawa Citizen daily newspaper,
last year, published an article on " are we turning into winter
weenies ? "
But, El Ninio has other plans now...

Andre

[Jack Linthicum]

On Dec 9, 1:19 pm, "Andrew Chaplin" >
wrote:
> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> >> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> >> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> >> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> >> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> >> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> >> > Casady
>
> >> and the other season, July
>
> > The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
> > snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
> > Go, global warming ! <g>
>
> Horse feathers, Andre. It was a mild winter but, trust me, it snowed. We did,
> however, have a green Christmas and New Year's Day. The skateway on the Rideau
> did not open till mid-January. This winter has been refreshingly cool. Camp
> Fortune opened its first ski run in November, and I suspect the skateway will
> open before New Year's. We already have a foot of snow on the ground that
> looks set to stay and Sawmill Creek has frozen over for the first time in
> yonks.
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

The New York Times has a list of 53 places to go in 2008, Number 35
is

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/travel/20071209_WHERE_GRAPHIC.html?ref=travel#goto35

The 53 places to go in 2008
Northwest Passage

(Photo
Trekking in Nunavut, in the eastern section of the Northwest
Territories.)

Notwithstanding last month's sinking of an Antarctic cruise ship,
climate tourism is heating up. And few places are warming up faster
than the Northwest Passage, the Arctic sea route over Canada.
Adventure Life Voyages, for one, is already booking cruises for its
Northwest Passage tour next August, with prices from $4,600 a person.

[george]

On Dec 10, 8:28 am, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Dec 9, 1:19 pm, "Andrew Chaplin" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> > >> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> > >> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> > >> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> > >> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> > >> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> > >> > Casady
>
> > >> and the other season, July
>
> > > The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
> > > snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
> > > Go, global warming ! <g>
>
> > Horse feathers, Andre. It was a mild winter but, trust me, it snowed. We did,
> > however, have a green Christmas and New Year's Day. The skateway on the Rideau
> > did not open till mid-January. This winter has been refreshingly cool. Camp
> > Fortune opened its first ski run in November, and I suspect the skateway will
> > open before New Year's. We already have a foot of snow on the ground that
> > looks set to stay and Sawmill Creek has frozen over for the first time in
> > yonks.
> > --
> > Andrew Chaplin
> > SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> > (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
>
> The New York Times has a list of 53 places to go in 2008, Number 35
> is
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/ref/travel/20071209_WHERE_GRAPHIC.html?ref=tra...
>
> The 53 places to go in 2008
> Northwest Passage

How about the Pacific?
We're enduring 25-28C at the moment and absolutely no chance of snow
where I am :-)

[Gernot Hassenpflug[_2_]]

Andre Lieven > writes:

> On Dec 6, 10:48 pm, Gernot Hassenpflug > wrote:
>> Andre Lieven > writes:
>> > Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
>> > the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
>> > are...
>>
>> > idiots.
>>
>> And that goes pretty much for any nation. Some of course have to be
>> right, though, even if they don't know it! :-)
>
> Thats true, though which other nations do it so routinely as the US ?
>
> I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> response
> was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.

The Ozzies I know when told that Oz is the best to be, simply shrug
and say "We know that, mate. We just don't tell everyone else 'cause
we want to keep it for ourselves". :-)
--
BOFH excuse #184:

loop found in loop in redundant loopback

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:06:06 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
> wrote:

>The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
>snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
>Go, global warming ! <g>

That's not what my daughter (who attends Carleton) told me last
Christmas!

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:04:59 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
> wrote:

>Give me a choice of North Dakota or Vancouver, BC, I'll be happy to be
>warm in Canada...

Even if the temperature were equal I'd pick Vancouver.

Face it, the United States has lots of attractions - North Dakota in
winter isn't one of them!

(This isn't just Canadian chauvinism speaking - I've driven North
Dakota highways in winter)

[Don Harstad]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Lieven" >
Newsgroups: sci.military.naval, rec.aviation.military,
rec.aviation.military.naval
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Russian Navy going back to the Med


> On Dec 9, 3:11 am, "Don Harstad" > wrote:
>> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > On Dec 8, 2:44 am, "Jim Ignorant" > splattered:
>> >> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>> > Hows that workin' for ya ? Canada has a budget SURPLUS, a POSITIVE
>> > balance of trade, medical care for ALL, and a SHRINKING debt.
>>
>> > Match our credentials, ace.
>>
>> Nothing is forever. We had virtually the same thing nine years ago.
>
> Not the positive balance of trade, nor the medical care for ALL.
>
> Try again.

Virtually. Not literally.
>
>> If the
>> globe is really warming, for example, you're going to need an air force
>> and
>> a navy of considerably greater proportions than you have now.
>
> Why ? Is the US preparing to aggressively invade more places ?
> It should stop doing that, as it's reputation is crap because of it.

No. Because you're going to have to police and perhaps defend the northwest
passage, and you have almost nothing to do it with. If you'd been paying
attention, you'd have noitced that the Russians have already begun to claim
arctic waters that Canada will contest. You're going to need help. Oh well,
maybe the Commonwealth will step up.
>
>> Unless, of
>> course, you ask for help, which we will be glad to provide even though we
>> may have a budget deficit, negative balance of trade, partial medical
>> care,
>> and an increasing debt. What are friends for, after all?
>
> Oh, I don't know, lets ask that again, AFTER the US returns the $5
> BILLION that it STOLE in violation of NAFTA and FTA... See " softwood
> lumber "...

You are just being obtuse. Legal disputes always exist, and there seems to
be some disagreement about this one as well.
>
> The modern US: A nation NOT to be trusted.

Now, you know very we'll be there if you need us. Don't be embarassed. We
weren't embarassed any of the times you helped us.
>
> Andre
>
Don H.

[Andrew Chaplin[_2_]]

On Dec 9, 2:45 pm, george > wrote:
> On Dec 10, 8:28 am, Jack Linthicum >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 1:19 pm, "Andrew Chaplin" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > On Dec 7, 5:57 pm, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
> > > >> On Dec 7, 5:53 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> > > >> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), Andre Lieven
>
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > >I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> > > >> > >the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> > > >> > >response was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> > > >> > The only thing wrong with Canada is the winters.
>
> > > >> > Casady
>
> > > >> and the other season, July
>
> > > > The winter of 2006-07 was so mild that there was not a flake of
> > > > snow on the ground in Ottawa.
>
> > > > Go, global warming ! <g>
>
> > > Horse feathers, Andre. It was a mild winter but, trust me, it snowed. We did,
> > > however, have a green Christmas and New Year's Day. The skateway on the Rideau
> > > did not open till mid-January. This winter has been refreshingly cool. Camp
> > > Fortune opened its first ski run in November, and I suspect the skateway will
> > > open before New Year's. We already have a foot of snow on the ground that
> > > looks set to stay and Sawmill Creek has frozen over for the first time in
> > > yonks.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Chaplin
> > > SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> > > (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
>
> > The New York Times has a list of 53 places to go in 2008, Number 35
> > is
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/ref/travel/20071209_WHERE_GRAPHIC.html?ref=tra...
>
> > The 53 places to go in 2008
> > Northwest Passage
>
> How about the Pacific?
> We're enduring 25-28C at the moment and absolutely no chance of snow
> where I am :-)

Makes for pretty poor skating, as far as I am concerned.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO

[Andre Lieven]

On Dec 10, 3:23 am, "Don Harstad" > wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andre Lieven" >
>
> Newsgroups: sci.military.naval, rec.aviation.military,
> rec.aviation.military.naval
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:39 AM
> Subject: Re: Russian Navy going back to the Med
>
> > On Dec 9, 3:11 am, "Don Harstad" > wrote:
> >> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > On Dec 8, 2:44 am, "Jim Ignorant" > splattered:
> >> >> "Andre Lieven" > wrote in message
> >> > Hows that workin' for ya ? Canada has a budget SURPLUS, a POSITIVE
> >> > balance of trade, medical care for ALL, and a SHRINKING debt.
>
> >> > Match our credentials, ace.
>
> >> Nothing is forever. We had virtually the same thing nine years ago.
>
> > Not the positive balance of trade, nor the medical care for ALL.
>
> > Try again.
>
> Virtually. Not literally.

IOW, not on 50% of the stated points. That translates to a 2-1 win for
us...

> >> If the
> >> globe is really warming, for example, you're going to need an air force
> >> and a navy of considerably greater proportions than you have now.
>
> > Why ? Is the US preparing to aggressively invade more places ?
> > It should stop doing that, as it's reputation is crap because of it.
>
> No. Because you're going to have to police and perhaps defend the northwest
> passage, and you have almost nothing to do it with. If you'd been paying
> attention, you'd have noitced that the Russians have already begun to claim
> arctic waters that Canada will contest. You're going to need help. Oh well,
> maybe the Commonwealth will step up.

Considering that among the worst prior Canadian Arctic violaters were
USN subs, well, going to the US to help on this is like a chicken
asking
a wolf for help...

> >> Unless, of
> >> course, you ask for help, which we will be glad to provide even though we
> >> may have a budget deficit, negative balance of trade, partial medical
> >> care, and an increasing debt. What are friends for, after all?
>
> > Oh, I don't know, lets ask that again, AFTER the US returns the $5
> > BILLION that it STOLE in violation of NAFTA and FTA... See " softwood
> > lumber "...
>
> You are just being obtuse. Legal disputes always exist, and there seems to
> be some disagreement about this one as well.

No. In every case where Canada and the US have gone to a dispute
resolution
forum on this matter, the forum agreed with Canada's position, and
cited the
US for violating NAFTA and the FTA.

> > The modern US: A nation NOT to be trusted.
>
> Now, you know very we'll be there if you need us.

Not really, no. And, we do know that you will be billing for it.
Unlike us...

> Don't be embarassed.

<Projection>

> We weren't embarassed any of the times you helped us.

No, you just forgot about each time, mere days later.

Who in the US, now, knows, for example, about the Eastern
Canadian cities that took in the many thousands of US citizens
on 9/11, when all planes were ordered to land as soon as possible,
with many ending up in Newfoundland or Maritime airports ?

Gander, Nfld, almost had it's population double that day, yet
the folks who were there are elequent on how well those Canadians
took care of them. Yet, 9 days later, did your President remember
that ? No. OK, hes a bad example, because hes an idiot.

Andre

[george]

On Dec 10, 3:31 pm, Gernot Hassenpflug > wrote:
> Andre Lieven > writes:
> > On Dec 6, 10:48 pm, Gernot Hassenpflug > wrote:
> >> Andre Lieven > writes:
> >> > Lewis Black well explained that USians who proclaim that theirs is
> >> > the greatest nation on Earth, *without* even having left it once,
> >> > are...
>
> >> > idiots.
>
> >> And that goes pretty much for any nation. Some of course have to be
> >> right, though, even if they don't know it! :-)
>
> > Thats true, though which other nations do it so routinely as the US ?
>
> > I cna recall a couple of years that a UN survey said that Canada was
> > the number one nation in the world to live in, most Canadian's
> > response
> > was closer to polite embarrassment than braddagio.
>
> The Ozzies I know when told that Oz is the best to be, simply shrug
> and say "We know that, mate. We just don't tell everyone else 'cause
> we want to keep it for ourselves". :-)

They have a lot of bushel to hide their light under :-)

[[email protected]]

On 7 дек, 23:32, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> On Dec 7, 4:36�am, Jack Linthicum > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 6, 12:46 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > > Putin now with his sham election is finished is back to military power
> > > moves. In the context of Arms sales to US foes like Chavez, Bear bomber
> > > back in the air, and talk of ending conventional force treaties; this
> > > guy is worth keeping a eye on.
>
> > > Yahoo! News
> > >Russiannavy to start sorties in Mediterranean
>
> > I presume someone in this, sci.military.naval, group will keep track
> > of how many ships do this act, how long they stay on station and how
> > many are sent home in some form of casualty.
>
> I'm just wondering how on earth the Russians scraped all that rust off
> their buckets that have sat for over a decade... or are they just
> sending 1-2 ships? I hope they don't send any of their submerged
> Chernobyls!
>
> Rob

There is nothing to worry about. No more Chernobyls:))) They just need
some exercise, just like any other Navy of any other country with
nuclear weapons.
What i wonder about, how come the Russian-American relations started
to go down again? What went wrong? These could be the best allies on
Earth that could control the rest of the world and protect other
nations from terror and poverty. If only these two nations could
cooperate better. There is so much to do together except for Weaponry
Race and Cold War. The people of these two great countries are so the
same with so similar values. They just speak different languages and
went a bit different ways towards democracy. But who can be sure which
way is faster or better? Some more thoughts on Russian-American
relations in my blog e-citizenglobal.blogspot.com
Andrey P.