WinPilot Pro AAT bug?

[Frank[_1_]]

Several times in the last few months, the latest version (8.08) of
WinPilot Pro has crashed (exited abnormally) on me while I was moving
an AAT mobile turnpoint around using the touch-sensitive screen. One
second everything is fine, and the next I'm staring at the PDA startup
screen. When this happens, WinPilot loses all task information, so
unless you have remembered to save the task before this happens, you
are SOL.

I've emailed Jerry about this a few times, but there has been no
response. Anyone else out there experiencing this problem with V8.08
(I have the PRO version, but it might be happening with ADV too), or
am I just lucky ;-)?


TIA,

Frank (TA)

[[email protected]]

On Dec 18, 9:02�pm, Frank > wrote:
> Several times in the last few months, the latest version (8.08) of
> WinPilot Pro has crashed (exited abnormally) on me while I was moving
> an AAT mobile turnpoint around using the touch-sensitive screen. �One
> second everything is fine, and the next I'm staring at the PDA startup
> screen. �When this happens, WinPilot loses all task information, so
> unless you have remembered to save the task before this happens, you
> are SOL.
>
> I've emailed Jerry about this a few times, but there has been no
> response. �Anyone else out there experiencing this problem with V8..08
> (I have the PRO version, but it might be happening with ADV too), or
> am I just lucky ;-)?
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank (TA)

Try downloading it again, and reinstalling it. I am not having any
problems. # 711.

[Tuno]

Finally, someone else besides me having this problem!!! I've reported
it to Jerry a number of times in the last 2+ years; I've been
experiencing it since at least version 6.x.

Frank, what PDA are you using? It's possible that the problem is in a
driver, not in Jerry's software. I'm using an hx4705. The more
information we can gather, the better.

~ted/2NO

[Frank[_1_]]

On Dec 20, 2:33*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> Finally, someone else besides me having this problem!!! I've reported
> it to Jerry a number of times in the last 2+ years; I've been
> experiencing it since at least version 6.x.
>
> Frank, what PDA are you using? It's possible that the problem is in a
> driver, not in Jerry's software. I'm using an hx4705. The more
> information we can gather, the better.
>
> ~ted/2NO
Ted,

Yes, I've had the same experience with Jerry - sometimes he answers,
sometimes he doesn't. If anyone knows how to get a response out of
him, they aren't telling ;-).

I'm running a Compaq iPAQ 3955 with 64M system RAM, 32M ROM, with
Windows PPC (WinCE 4.20). I went through all last season with no
problems until the Fairfield contest in October, where it crashed on
me two days in a row on AAT tasks.

Doesn't sound like a driver problem to me. First, we are running
different OS levels, with (presumably) different driver sets.
Secondly, it is clear the bug is triggered by mtp movement, which
smacks of some sort of stack overrun problem. It could also be some
sort of long-term memory leak (like a hidden log file or something)
that consumes system memory over time. I wrote Jerry a long note
about this (see below), but of course no response ;-).

I think we should start posting all our bug reports here on RAS. At
least that way we have some chance of gathering a common set of bug
descriptions, and people who are considering putting there money down
will be forewarned. WinPilot is a great program, and was fairly
robust through most of last season. However, two race day crashes in
a row has shaken my faith - I'm looking for something else now.

Frank (TA)




************************************************** ************************************************** *****************
email sent 10/17/07:

To: WinPilot >
Subject: WinPilot Pro abnormal exits

Jerry,

At Fairfield, WinPilot exited abnormally on me the last two days in a
row. When the problem occurred, I was moving the last mobile
turnpoint with my thumb. In both cases, the program exited back to
the main screen (the one with the 'WinPilot' and 'WinPilot Simulator'
choices) without warning of any kind. In both cases, when I touched
the 'WinPilot' choice, the program came back up with everything mostly
intact, but the differential time remaining value was all screwed up.
In one case it showed something like 23 hours and 10 minutes, and in
the other case it showed something like 95 hours.

It is possible I was causing a phenomenon similar to 'contact bounce'
as I tried to move the mtp. I remember in both cases that I was
moving my thumb up the screen with a rubbing motion, and felt some
thumb vibration just before the exit occurred. Maybe WinPilot was
entering & exiting 'drag' mode too rapidly for the program to handle?

These incidents were a real PITA, as I was dragging the last mtp
around to figure out when to turn for final glide. Having the program
exit just then was *not* conducive to pilot sanity! ;-).

Frank

************************************************** ************************************************** *****************



Got through an entire AAT race this evening with no problems, but I
was on pins and needles the entire time. Tonight I saw a couple more
problems. At one point I saw the mtp for turnpoint 2 *way* outside
the turn circle, even with the 'keep mtp inside cirle' option checke.
I have suspected in the past that this option was occasionally not
honored, but tonight I saw it for sure. Also, I'm starting to get a
lot of 'Low Memory - Freeing' warning messages, both in the sim and in
the real WinPilot. I've been using the same PDA for over a year now,
and haven't seen the problem until recently. Anyone got any clues
what to do about this?

[Tuno]

Frank,

No need to post all our bug reports here. Jerry may not be as
responsive as we like sometimes but he does a pretty good job with
what he has.

I agree with you that the evidence points to a but in the aat mtp
code.

I used to get "Low Memory" messages too but since I started using it
with terrain turned off, and with my own aviation data, this is no
longer an issue.

-ted/2NO

[Eric Greenwell]

Tuno wrote:
> Frank,
>
> No need to post all our bug reports here. Jerry may not be as
> responsive as we like sometimes but he does a pretty good job with
> what he has.

A Yahoo or Google group would be a better choice anyway. It would serve
the Winpilot owners better, and avoid littering RAS with such product
specific detail.

If a group is started, I hope it will be open to everyone, at least for
reading and searching. For example, the SeeYou forums are open, even
though they are provided by the software producer (Naviter) and could be
closed to now-owners.

Open forums benefit glider pilots that are trying to decide on which
software to buy and how much support is available. The software provider
benefits because prospective customers are more likely to become
customers when they see the company isn't trying to hide problems and
will respond to requests.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Peter[_4_]]

I was under the impression that this group is for a "point of interest" for
all soaring related issues. Given the fact that we (WinPilot) users are
paying good money for the program and upgrades, we deserve some answers.
What better place to voice frustrations than here? I too, had problems with
this program (lack of understanding and otherwise) in the passed and if it
was not for Richard at Craggy Aero I would have switched to something else a
long time ago. As far as Jerry, I give him an "A" for designing this program
and an "F" for service.PeterK
"Bob Gibbons" > wrote in message
...
> How about using Al MacDonalds Gliderforum site.
>
> http://www.gliderforum.com
>
> Al already has a "Software" forum under "General Discussion".
>
> The site is open to everyone and has little to no problem with spam
> generation.
>
> On Winpilot, I've been using the program for years and have been
> trying (for years) to get Jerry to incorporate the altitude safety
> margin into the "L/D Required" NavBox.
>
> No response to multiple queries. Looks like Jerry has lost interest in
> the program...too bad, it was one of the first, and, for many years,
> the best.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:38:19 GMT, Eric Greenwell
> > wrote:
>
>>Tuno wrote:
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> No need to post all our bug reports here. Jerry may not be as
>>> responsive as we like sometimes but he does a pretty good job with
>>> what he has.
>>
>>A Yahoo or Google group would be a better choice anyway. It would serve
>>the Winpilot owners better, and avoid littering RAS with such product
>>specific detail.
>>
>>If a group is started, I hope it will be open to everyone, at least for
>>reading and searching. For example, the SeeYou forums are open, even
>>though they are provided by the software producer (Naviter) and could be
>>closed to now-owners.
>>
>>Open forums benefit glider pilots that are trying to decide on which
>>software to buy and how much support is available. The software provider
>>benefits because prospective customers are more likely to become
>>customers when they see the company isn't trying to hide problems and
>>will respond to requests.

[Eric Greenwell]

Peter wrote:
> I was under the impression that this group is for a "point of interest" for
> all soaring related issues. Given the fact that we (WinPilot) users are
> paying good money for the program and upgrades, we deserve some answers.
> What better place to voice frustrations than here? I too, had problems with
> this program (lack of understanding and otherwise) in the passed and if it
> was not for Richard at Craggy Aero I would have switched to something else a
> long time ago. As far as Jerry, I give him an "A" for designing this program
> and an "F" for service.PeterK

OK, if you want to open the discussion to the wider audience, here goes:

Switch to SeeYou Mobile: excellent program, frequent updates and
upgrades, excellent support on their open forum and individually,
generous licensing (not tied to single PDA or GPS) and upgrade prices,
and a team making sure it continues to happen without depending on one
person.

Not impressed? Download a SeeYou Mobile evaluation copy, fully
functional, and try it in flight; yes, in flight, not just in simulator
mode.

Still not impressed? Come to the SSA convention in February, learn about
the new features, and talk to Andre and Erazem, the SeeYou Team leaders,
and their USA dealer, Roy McMaster.

At the very least, lurk on the Mobile forum

http://www.naviter.si/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,238

and see what support can be like.

Hope that helps. See you there!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Richard[_1_]]

On Dec 20, 6:50*pm, Frank > wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2:33*pm, Tuno > wrote:> Finally, someone else besides me having this problem!!! I've reported
> > it to Jerry a number of times in the last 2+ years; I've been
> > experiencing it since at least version 6.x.
>
> > Frank, what PDA are you using? It's possible that the problem is in a
> > driver, not in Jerry's software. I'm using an hx4705. The more
> > information we can gather, the better.
>
> > ~ted/2NO
>
> Ted,
>
> Yes, I've had the same experience with Jerry - sometimes he answers,
> sometimes he doesn't. *If anyone knows how to get a response out of
> him, they aren't telling ;-).
>
> I'm running a Compaq iPAQ 3955 with 64M system RAM, 32M ROM, with
> Windows PPC (WinCE 4.20). *I went through all last season with no
> problems until the Fairfield contest in October, where it crashed on
> me two days in a row on AAT tasks.
>
> Doesn't sound like a driver problem to me. *First, we are running
> different OS levels, with (presumably) different driver sets.
> Secondly, it is clear the bug is triggered by mtp movement, which
> smacks of some sort of stack overrun problem. *It could also be some
> sort of long-term memory leak (like a hidden log file or something)
> that consumes system memory over time. * I wrote Jerry a long note
> about this *(see below), but of course no response ;-).
>
> I think we should start posting all our bug reports here on RAS. *At
> least that way we have some chance of gathering a common set of bug
> descriptions, and people who are considering putting there money down
> will be forewarned. *WinPilot is a great program, and was fairly
> robust through most of last season. However, *two race day crashes in
> a row has shaken my faith - I'm looking for something else now.
>
> Frank (TA)
>
> ************************************************** ************************************************** ******************
> email sent 10/17/07:
>
> To: WinPilot >
> Subject: WinPilot Pro abnormal exits
>
> Jerry,
>
> At Fairfield, WinPilot exited abnormally on me the last two days in a
> row. *When the problem occurred, I was moving the last mobile
> turnpoint with my thumb. *In both cases, the program exited back to
> the main screen (the one with the 'WinPilot' and 'WinPilot Simulator'
> choices) without warning of any kind. *In both cases, when I touched
> the 'WinPilot' choice, the program came back up with everything mostly
> intact, but the differential time remaining value was all screwed up.
> In one case it showed something like 23 hours and 10 minutes, and in
> the other case it showed something like 95 hours.
>
> It is *possible I was causing a phenomenon similar to 'contact bounce'
> as I tried to move the mtp. *I remember in both cases that I was
> moving my thumb up the screen with a rubbing motion, and felt some
> thumb vibration just before the exit occurred. *Maybe WinPilot was
> entering & exiting 'drag' mode too rapidly for the program to handle?
>
> These incidents were a real PITA, as I was dragging the last mtp
> around to figure out when to turn for final glide. *Having the program
> exit just then was *not* conducive to pilot sanity! ;-).
>
> Frank
>
> ************************************************** ************************************************** ******************
>
> Got through an entire AAT race this evening with no problems, but I
> was on pins and needles the entire time. *Tonight I saw a couple more
> problems. *At one point I saw the mtp for turnpoint 2 *way* outside
> the turn circle, even with the 'keep mtp inside cirle' option checke.
> I have suspected in the past that this option was occasionally not
> honored, but tonight I saw it for sure. *Also, I'm starting to get a
> lot of 'Low Memory - Freeing' warning messages, both in the sim and in
> the real WinPilot. *I've been using the same PDA for over a year now,
> and haven't seen the problem until recently. *Anyone got any clues
> what to do about this?

Frank,

Check and see if you have any other programs running Start Settings
System Memory Running Programs.

Also you can check the memory and see if something else is using it or
you can make more available.

I had some turn area problems when my thermal database included
thermals in both parowan and montague, when I cleaned up the file the
problems stopped. As you can imagine this problem was really hard to
find, I just stumbled on it and everything got better.

I would also try a hard reset and reinstall the program.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Tuno]

I'm a fan of most of the work that the Naviter team does, but I sure
wish that they didn't use a proprietary binary file format for their
airspace (*.cup) files.

Of course this doesn't prevent people from using other airspace files;
SeeYou can load just about anything and its Mobile Wizard can be used
to create custom airspace files for use with SeeYou Mobile.

[Frank[_1_]]

On Dec 22, 10:43*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> > I was under the impression that this group is for a "point of interest" for
> > all soaring related issues. Given the fact that we (WinPilot) users are
> > paying good money for the program and upgrades, we deserve some answers.
> > What better place to voice frustrations than here? I too, had problems with
> > this program (lack of understanding and otherwise) in the passed and if it
> > was not for Richard at Craggy Aero I would have switched to something else a
> > long time ago. As far as Jerry, I give him an "A" for designing this program
> > and an "F" for service.PeterK
>
> OK, if you want to open the discussion to the wider audience, here goes:
>
> Switch to SeeYou Mobile: excellent program, frequent updates and
> upgrades, excellent support on their open forum and individually,
> generous licensing (not tied to single PDA or GPS) and upgrade prices,
> and a team making sure it continues to happen without depending on one
> person.
>
> Not impressed? Download a SeeYou Mobile evaluation copy, fully
> functional, and try it in flight; yes, in flight, not just in simulator
> mode.
>
> Still not impressed? Come to the SSA convention in February, learn about
> the new features, and talk to Andre and Erazem, the SeeYou Team leaders,
> and their USA dealer, Roy McMaster.
>
> At the very least, lurk on the Mobile forum
>
> * * * *http://www.naviter.si/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,238
>
> and see what support can be like.
>
> Hope that helps. See you there!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Actually, Eric, I may do just that, and abandon the two PDA licenses I
purchased for WinPilot just one year ago. It is much easier now to
evaluate PDA soaring programs these days, because they can be 'flown'
repeatedly in Condor under pretty realistic soaring conditions.

Frank

[Eric Greenwell]

Tuno wrote:
> I'm a fan of most of the work that the Naviter team does, but I sure
> wish that they didn't use a proprietary binary file format for their
> airspace (*.cup) files.

That has been a bit annoying, because they couldn't be edited.
>
> Of course this doesn't prevent people from using other airspace files;
> SeeYou can load just about anything and its Mobile Wizard can be used
> to create custom airspace files for use with SeeYou Mobile.

That's what I do, which is why I wanted the entire USA. And now I have
(through your efforts) not just one, but two open format, editable
files. I should take a look at the OpenAir format and see if I like that
better than the N-P format files I've been using. Any suggestions on
format preference?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Tuno]

< Any suggestions on format preference? >

I really don't think one is preferable over the other. TNP/SUA seems
to be used in more places (GNII and others, where only WinPilot uses
OpenAir, afaik).

I wish that at least one of them would adhere to the FAA's breakdown
of restrictive airspaces (alert, caution, danger, MOA, prohibited,
restricted, training, warning). Those eight types (in the NFD) have to
be typecast to something the SUA or OpenAir format understands, and
how the application software uses those is another topic entirely.

But not even the FAA is consistent. The Special Use Airspace (SUAS)
half of the USFIF data contained "Temporary reserved airspace" and not
"Training".

I can hardly keep up with it all!!

2NO