The Relief Band for Nausea Relief

[jodom]

I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
experiences.

http://joelodom.blogspot.com/2007/12/relief-band-for-nausea-relief.html

[Michael Ash]

jodom > wrote:
> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
> experiences.
>
> http://joelodom.blogspot.com/2007/12/relief-band-for-nausea-relief.html

Doesn't work for me. Since this whole business is really just
psychological, maybe I'm too skeptical for it to work. Luckily a friend
very graciously lent me his (his wife swears by it, just goes to show...)
and so I was only out a pair of batteries. If you can take one for a test
run then it's probably worth a shot.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[raulb]

I know someone with a couple thousand hours in gliders, who admits to
getting airsick at the beginning of the season every year. He swears
by the accupressure bracelets (wristbands) and raspberry tablets.
Since I don't have a problem with motion sickness I do not know what
either does or why, but he says they work.

On Dec 19, 6:50 am, jodom > wrote:
> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
> experiences.
>
> http://joelodom.blogspot.com/2007/12/relief-band-for-nausea-relief.html

[Mike the Strike]

I have used and recommended ginger as a nausea treatment. It's the
only one that has worked for me and several colleagues. Trust me,
it's one of the old wives remedies that really does work and has no
side effects.

Magnets, pressure devices and psychic bracelets all belong to the
"faith healer" category.

Mike

[Tom[_6_]]

I'm one of the colleagues Mike referred to and I endorse using ginger. I
cut off a 1/4 slice of the root and put it in my cheek like chewing tobacco.
Stays with me the whole flight. Took a couple flights to get use to the
taste, but now I enjoy it.

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
...
>I have used and recommended ginger as a nausea treatment. It's the
> only one that has worked for me and several colleagues. Trust me,
> it's one of the old wives remedies that really does work and has no
> side effects.
>
> Magnets, pressure devices and psychic bracelets all belong to the
> "faith healer" category.
>
> Mike

[bumper]

Works for me, though I rarely find that I need it while soaring. I do find
that it is only effective if the directions are followed precisely. It has
to be positioned so the "tingle" goes up the palm to the two middle fingers.

bumper
"jodom" > wrote in message
...
> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
> experiences.
>
> http://joelodom.blogspot.com/2007/12/relief-band-for-nausea-relief.html
>

[Ian]

On 19 Dec, 14:50, jodom > wrote:
> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
> experiences.

I sail as well as flying, and am cursed with rotten sea-sickness. I
tried the pressure bands and they did have some effect, but the only
thing that works effectively for me is transdermal hyoscine -
Scopaderm patches. When they went off the market for a few years I had
to give up sailing.

I've never needed or tried them for flying though.

Ian

[HL Falbaum]

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> On 19 Dec, 14:50, jodom > wrote:
>> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
>> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
>> experiences.
>
> I sail as well as flying, and am cursed with rotten sea-sickness. I
> tried the pressure bands and they did have some effect, but the only
> thing that works effectively for me is transdermal hyoscine -
> Scopaderm patches. When they went off the market for a few years I had
> to give up sailing.
>
> I've never needed or tried them for flying though.
>
> Ian
>

Would suggest that being PIC and the potential effects of Scopolamine/
Hyocyamine are not compatible. Effects are subtle and variable from time to
time as well as from individual to individual.

Not at all benign for flying--or driving, or running dangerous machinery.


Hartley Falbaum

[Ian]

On 20 Dec, 16:04, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> "Ian" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On 19 Dec, 14:50, jodom > wrote:
> >> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
> >> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
> >> experiences.
>
> > I sail as well as flying, and am cursed with rotten sea-sickness. I
> > tried the pressure bands and they did have some effect, but the only
> > thing that works effectively for me is transdermal hyoscine -
> > Scopaderm patches. When they went off the market for a few years I had
> > to give up sailing.
>
> > I've never needed or tried them for flying though.

> Would suggest that being PIC and the potential effects of Scopolamine/
> Hyocyamine are not compatible. Effects are subtle and variable from time to
> time as well as from individual to individual.
>
> Not at all benign for flying--or driving, or running dangerous machinery.

I think the "potential" bit is important. It would be daft to go
flying without knowing the effects of this - or any - medication.
However, having had dozens of those little patches behind my ears for,
cumulatively, months of my life, I am happy with them and quite
confident that I could fly or drive with them. The same may not go for
others, of course.

They take 24 hours to get up to full power anyway, so anyone trying
them should have reasonable warning of side effects.

In flight air-sickness would, I suspect, be far more dangerous.

Ian

[Dan G]

On Dec 20, 4:04 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> Would suggest that being PIC and the potential effects of Scopolamine/
> Hyocyamine are not compatible. Effects are subtle and variable from time to
> time as well as from individual to individual.

Test before use - i.e., take a few times when you're *not* flying or
driving to see if it has any effect. Scopolamine only produces
tiredness in less than 20% of subjects (do a pubmed search). If it
*does* make you tired, there are alternatives that are less effective
for reducing sickness but also have a lower rate of inducing
tiredness. I can't recall the exact drugs off the top of my head but
again a pubmed or Cochrane search should find the answer.

Also agree with Ian - being perhaps a little tired (and who hasn't
flown a bit tired, especially towards the end of a long flight?) is
safer than vomiting all over the controls! The obvious rejoinder is
not to fly at all, but that may not be acceptable to the person
concerned.

BTW Scopolamine is also widely used by astronauts, many of whom (think
it's something like half) suffer from space sickness. You don't know
if you're susceptible until you're in zero G for some time, so it's
impossible to know if an individual is going to suffer before flight.
Both NASA and the Russians seem happy for their people to be fully
dosed up on scopolamine during missions!


Dan

[Ian]

On 20 Dec, 18:07, Dan G > wrote:

> If it
> *does* make you tired, there are alternatives that are less effective
> for reducing sickness but also have a lower rate of inducing
> tiredness.

When I was looking for an alternative to the patches I visited a very
helpful doctor on the Isle on Man. He was a sailor too, and was happy
to prescribe me something more powerful than the usual over-the-
counter stuff. As usual, the drugs came with a patient information
leaflet, including details of side effects.

"Caution. May induce nausea, dizziness and vomiting."

Not, I felt, the greatest confidence builder for an anti seasickness
pill.

Ian

[Michael Ash]

Dan G > wrote:
> Also agree with Ian - being perhaps a little tired (and who hasn't
> flown a bit tired, especially towards the end of a long flight?) is
> safer than vomiting all over the controls! The obvious rejoinder is
> not to fly at all, but that may not be acceptable to the person
> concerned.

This will obviously depend on just how tired we're talking, and also
personal experience, but speaking for myself as someone who's done both, I
would *vastly* prefer being a little tired. Recovery from airsickness is
faster but the episode itself is much more impairing and dangerous.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Wayne Hoover]

Ian wrote:
> On 20 Dec, 16:04, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
>> "Ian" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> On 19 Dec, 14:50, jodom > wrote:
>>>> I've reviewed the relief band in the context of my experience as a
>>>> glider pilot. I'd love to hear comments from other pilots about their
>>>> experiences.
>>> I sail as well as flying, and am cursed with rotten sea-sickness. I
>>> tried the pressure bands and they did have some effect, but the only
>>> thing that works effectively for me is transdermal hyoscine -
>>> Scopaderm patches. When they went off the market for a few years I had
>>> to give up sailing.
>>> I've never needed or tried them for flying though.
>
>> Would suggest that being PIC and the potential effects of Scopolamine/
>> Hyocyamine are not compatible. Effects are subtle and variable from time to
>> time as well as from individual to individual.
>>
>> Not at all benign for flying--or driving, or running dangerous machinery.
>
> I think the "potential" bit is important. It would be daft to go
> flying without knowing the effects of this - or any - medication.
> However, having had dozens of those little patches behind my ears for,
> cumulatively, months of my life, I am happy with them and quite
> confident that I could fly or drive with them. The same may not go for
> others, of course.
>
> They take 24 hours to get up to full power anyway, so anyone trying
> them should have reasonable warning of side effects.
>
> In flight air-sickness would, I suspect, be far more dangerous.
>
> Ian
>
Scopolamine not only causes tiredness it can also cause blurred vision
and dilates the the pupils which are also reasons not to use it while
flying.

Wayne Hoover

[Ian]

On 26 Dec, 19:36, Wayne Hoover > wrote:

> Scopolamine not only causes tiredness it can also cause blurred vision
> and dilates the the pupils which are also reasons not to use it while
> flying.

Indeed - if one is so affected. If one is not so affected, no problem.

Ian

[danlj]

On Dec 27, 12:33 pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 26 Dec, 19:36, Wayne Hoover > wrote:
>
> > Scopolamine not only causes tiredness it can also cause blurred vision
> > and dilates the the pupils which are also reasons not to use it while
> > flying.
>
> Indeed - if one is so affected. If one is not so affected, no problem.
>

As a physician and aviation medical examiner I wish to demur as
clearly as possible from any recommendation to use scopalamine for
motion sickness while flying.

1: Users of perfomance-decreasing drugs are almost never aware of mild
impairments that are nevertheless easily measured in formal testing.
Therefore to say, 'try it and if you don't feel it affects you' is to
perpetuate personal cluelessness.
2: scopalamine is a prohibited medication per FAA aeromedical rules,
so if you have an incident and are found to have been using it, be
aware that your insurance may not cover you, and you may face
enforcement action on your licence if you survive. The non-requirement
of medical certification for glider pilots is not permission to fly
impaired. Every pilot is required by FARs to refrain from flying with
any unsafe condition.
3: scopalamine has an incredibly long persistence in the body. For
example, years ago, I put a patch on my teenage daughter before an
airplane trip because she feared motion sickness. She became drowsy
after a couple of hours, and I peeled it off promptly. She spent most
of the next two days sleeping off and on. She said she 'felt
fine' (see point 1).
4: I would no more fly with a pilot using scopalamine than I would fly
with a pilot who just had a glass of wine.
5: Air force and astronaut use of scopalamine is done because of the
nature of the mission, and the fact that motion sickness can be
literally incapacitating - when the choice is between incapacitation
and decreased function, and one can't abort the mission, the choice is
no choice at all. But the fact that it's used in severe situations
does not mean it's a good idea in recreation!
6: If I knew that a physician colleague had actually recommended
scopalamine for a pilot, and an incident had occurred, I would be
unhappily willing to serve as an expert witness against that
colleague. (It is a standard of medical practice to do no harm.)

Dan Johnson md

[Dan G]

On Dec 27, 6:54*pm, danlj > wrote:
> As a physician and aviation medical examiner I wish to demur as
> clearly as possible from any recommendation to use scopalamine for
> motion sickness while flying.

<snip>

So would you say the mild, unnoticeable impairment is worse than
vomiting repeatedly over the controls? What would you say to the pilot
faced with such a choice?


Dan

[Cats]

On Dec 27, 7:59*pm, Dan G > wrote:
> On Dec 27, 6:54*pm, danlj > wrote:
>
> > As a physician and aviation medical examiner I wish to demur as
> > clearly as possible from any recommendation to use scopalamine for
> > motion sickness while flying.
>
> <snip>
>
> So would you say the mild, unnoticeable impairment is worse than
> vomiting repeatedly over the controls? What would you say to the pilot
> faced with such a choice?

If I read Dan G correctly, he has said that just because a person that
has taken the scopalamine thinks they are unaffected doesn't mean
that's actually the case. They might actually be suffering
considerable impairment. Quite how someone who suffers airsickness
gets over it is another matter. I suspect a lot of them move on to
some other sport.

[Dan G]

On Dec 27, 6:54 pm, danlj > wrote:

> 2: scopalamine is a prohibited medication per FAA aeromedical rules,
> so if you have an incident and are found to have been using it, be
> aware that your insurance may not cover you, and you may face
> enforcement action on your licence if you survive. The non-requirement
> of medical certification for glider pilots is not permission to fly
> impaired. Every pilot is required by FARs to refrain from flying with
> any unsafe condition.

You piqued my interest in the US rules so I went looking for them. As
far as I can see there is no such thing as a "prohibited" medications
list in FAA regs. I did find, in Title 14 Part 91, the following:

91.17 Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil
aircraft--

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any
way contrary to safety

Also on the FAA website a guidance note on OTC medicines:

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Meds_flying_web.pdf

Which makes it clear that a pilot should not fly if using a drug that
lists drowsiness as a side-effect.

All the new-generation "non-sedating" antihistamines list "drowsiness"
as a side-effect and I personally know several pilots who use them for
hay-fever relief :-/.


Dan

[Bullwinkle]

On 12/27/07 5:01 PM, in article
, "Dan G"
> wrote:

> On Dec 27, 6:54 pm, danlj > wrote:
>
>> 2: scopalamine is a prohibited medication per FAA aeromedical rules,
>> so if you have an incident and are found to have been using it, be
>> aware that your insurance may not cover you, and you may face
>> enforcement action on your licence if you survive. The non-requirement
>> of medical certification for glider pilots is not permission to fly
>> impaired. Every pilot is required by FARs to refrain from flying with
>> any unsafe condition.
>
> You piqued my interest in the US rules so I went looking for them. As
> far as I can see there is no such thing as a "prohibited" medications
> list in FAA regs. I did find, in Title 14 Part 91, the following:
>
> 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
>
> (a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil
> aircraft--
>
> (1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
>
> (2) While under the influence of alcohol;
>
> (3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any
> way contrary to safety
>
> Also on the FAA website a guidance note on OTC medicines:
>
>
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Meds_flying_web.pd>
f
>
> Which makes it clear that a pilot should not fly if using a drug that
> lists drowsiness as a side-effect.
>
> All the new-generation "non-sedating" antihistamines list "drowsiness"
> as a side-effect and I personally know several pilots who use them for
> hay-fever relief :-/.
>
>
> Dan

The FAA allows a lot of medications to be used by pilots that have potential
side effects. Then again, there are certain medications that are prohibited
outright, whether or not the pilot has side effects.

Examples of ones that can be used if there are no side effects after a 48
hour ground test (this assumes that the underlying condition itself would
not prevent safe performance of crew duties):
Motrin and other NSAIDs
Antibiotics
Non-sedating antihistamines (Allegra, Claritin, and Clarinex if no side
effects after 48 hours, but not Zyrtec)
Blood pressure meds (there are some additional rules with this one.)
Etc. etc. There are many like this.

Examples of meds that can't be used at all, regardless of side effects, or
effects of the underlying disorder:
Antidepressants
Antipsychotics
Muscle relaxers
Antiseizure meds (whether or not there is a seizure disorder)
Sleeping pills (duh!)
Narcotic pain killers
etc. etc. There are many like this, also. Sometimes history of use of
these meds requires a waiver ("special issuance", in FAA lingo), sometimes
just a waiting period after the last dose.

For what it's worth, you should get competent advice from someone who knows
before flying after use of any meds.

But the truth of the matter is, FAR 61.53 makes you your own flight surgeon,
by placing the responsibility for medically grounding and ungrounding,
squarely on you. Even power pilots who require a medical can determine
(between their medicals) for themselves if they can safely perform their
crew duties. AME's only perform the medical exam, they don't ground and
unground the way a military flight surgeon does, between medicals.

Again, I recommend you make this kind of decision only after seeking
competent advice (which, in some cases is not your local AME: many of them
do so few medicals and have such little aviation medicine expertise that
they just don't know, no matter how well meaning they are).

Respectfully,
Bullwinkle
Also a physician, board certified in Aerospace Medicine

[Dan G]

On Dec 28, 12:30*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
> Examples of meds that can't be used at all, regardless of side effects, or
> effects of the underlying disorder:
> * * Antidepressants
> * * Antipsychotics
> * * Muscle relaxers
> * * Antiseizure meds (whether or not there is a seizure disorder)
> * * Sleeping pills (duh!)
> * * Narcotic pain killers
> * * etc. etc. There are many like this, also. Sometimes history of use of
> these meds requires a waiver ("special issuance", in FAA lingo), sometimes
> just a waiting period after the last dose.

Can you or anyone else link to this list please?


Dan

[Bullwinkle]

On 12/27/07 5:49 PM, in article
, "Dan G"
> wrote:

> On Dec 28, 12:30*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>> Examples of meds that can't be used at all, regardless of side effects, or
>> effects of the underlying disorder:
>> * * Antidepressants
>> * * Antipsychotics
>> * * Muscle relaxers
>> * * Antiseizure meds (whether or not there is a seizure disorder)
>> * * Sleeping pills (duh!)
>> * * Narcotic pain killers
>> * * etc. etc. There are many like this, also. Sometimes history of use of
>> these meds requires a waiver ("special issuance", in FAA lingo), sometimes
>> just a waiting period after the last dose.
>
> Can you or anyone else link to this list please?
>
>
> Dan

The FAA doesn't publish a list of approved and disapproved meds: they say it
would change too frequently to keep current (probably true).

Good approximations of the current meds list can be found at either:
Www.aviationmedicine.com
Www.leftseat.com

Respectfully,
Bullwinkle

[danlj]

On Dec 27, 6:30 pm, Bullwinkle > wrote:
> For what it's worth, you should get competent advice from someone who knows
> before flying after use of any meds.
>
> But the truth of the matter is, FAR 61.53 makes you your own flight surgeon,
> by placing the responsibility for medically grounding and ungrounding,
> squarely on you.
>
> Again, I recommend you make this kind of decision only after seeking
> competent advice (which, in some cases is not your local AME: many of them
> do so few medicals and have such little aviation medicine expertise that
> they just don't know, no matter how well meaning they are).

Amen.

I wasn't going to take the time to add anything to this thread, but
can't resist a summary.

Pilots may be:
1: Unimpaired
1B: Unaware of impairment (feels the same as unimpaired)
1C: "Potentially" impaired (by meds, fatigue, etc.)
2: Impaired and aware of it.
2B: Able to compensate or escape to safety
2C: Unable to compensate or escape

Advice-givers should generally refrain from recommending anything that
could be associated with potential impairment (see elsewhere in this
thread for instances of such).

Pilots are responsible for self-assessment, but as this is difficult
(impossible to do objectively), should seek and welcome observations
and counsel of others in the decision not to fly.

Example of "medical" impairment: Simply stay sober while watching
other people consume ("medical") alcohol at a social gathering. If
you're watching carefully, just ONE drink changes the verbal and motor
performance of everyone except a daily-drinker. They s-l-o-w d-o-w-n
mentally, physically, verbally.

Example of physical impairment relevant to this thread: motion
sickness and the sopite syndrome (motion-induced drowsinesss): I get
very sleepy before I get sick; vomiting on my shirt on final (which
I've done) is not as distracting, in my experience, as experiencing
micro-sleep while thermaling (which I've done). I realized this
spring that this is getting worse for me; one April day at 3000 agl, I
forced myself to make 2 decisions: one, to return, land, and stow the
glider; two, to decide whether I should quit soaring.

My decision is relevant to the suggestion by some that motion-sickness
drugs are all right because they help, because the impairment of drug
(undetected by the user) is less than the impairment of the motion
sickness (unavoidable and distracting).

My decision was to *acclimate*, not to take medications - the
'treatment' was to take soaring flights more often, briefly, to
acclimate to motion sickness, and to drink a cup or two of coffee
before lunch (caffeine has been shown to enhance performance slightly)
on soaring days.

As an AME, physician, and opinionater, I feel quite safe in
recommending that one acclimitize. There are ways to do this other
than flying; I know of an aerobatic pilot who stood on his head
several times a day to maintain acclimation during non-flying periods;
or play that involves spinning and jumping should also help. On the
other hand, I do not feel quite safe in recommending that anyone fly
when potentially or actually impaired.

In saying this, I realize that some tasks are simple and hard to mess
up, e.g., local soaring on a sunny calm day. And other tasks are
exceedingly complex, e.g., single-pilot hand-flown IFR in IMC, at
night, in rain or snow, to minimums, in a complex turbocharged
airplane, or contest flying on the ridge with complex navigation and
planning tasks. (We just lost a colleague in NZ like this, obviously
one factor went undetected; what it was, we'll never know.)

Thus "Impairment" is relative to the task at hand.

Best wishes,

Dan Johnson

[Ian]

On 27 Dec, 18:54, danlj > wrote:
> On Dec 27, 12:33 pm, Ian > wrote:
>
> > On 26 Dec, 19:36, Wayne Hoover > wrote:
>
> > > Scopolamine not only causes tiredness it can also cause blurred vision
> > > and dilates the the pupils which are also reasons not to use it while
> > > flying.
>
> > Indeed - if one is so affected. If one is not so affected, no problem.
>
> As a physician and aviation medical examiner I wish to demur as
> clearly as possible from any recommendation to use scopalamine for
> motion sickness while flying.

You go right ahead, and welcome.

I never have felt the need to use a patch while flying because,
although I am plagued by sea-sickness, I have never had any
significant problems in the air. If I did start to suffer air-
sickness, however, I would cheerfully consider using Scopaderm TTS
patches. They are available in the UK as an over-the-counter medicine,
and the relevant warning simply says (and I quote) "This medication
causes drowsiness which may continue the next day. If affected do not
drive or operate machinery. Avoid alcoholic drink."

Note that "if affected". As I wrote before, I have spent months of my
life wearing these patches and have noticed no side effects at all,
save a slightly dry mouth which is useful reassurance that the patch
is active.

I'm not a doctor (well, not your sort). I'm not making any
recommendations. I am, however an experienced user of Scopaderm, and I
have a healthy desire to preserve my own life.

Best wishes,

Ian

[Cats]

On Dec 29, 3:35*am, Ian > wrote:
<snip>
>
> I never have felt the need to use a patch while flying because,
> although I am plagued by sea-sickness, I have never had any
> significant problems in the air. If I did start to suffer air-
> sickness, however, I would cheerfully consider using Scopaderm TTS
> patches. They are available in the UK as an over-the-counter medicine,
> and the relevant warning simply says (and I quote) "This medication
> causes drowsiness which may continue the next day. If affected do not
> drive or operate machinery. Avoid alcoholic drink."
>
> Note that "if affected". As I wrote before, I have spent months of my
> life wearing these patches and have noticed no side effects at all,
> save a slightly dry mouth which is useful reassurance that the patch
> is active.
>
<snip>

Who is going to judge if you are affected? Judging ourselves is the
hardest thing to do.

[Ian]

On 29 Dec, 08:16, Cats > wrote:
> On Dec 29, 3:35 am, Ian > wrote:

> > Note that "if affected". As I wrote before, I have spent months of my
> > life wearing these patches and have noticed no side effects at all,
> > save a slightly dry mouth which is useful reassurance that the patch
> > is active.

> Who is going to judge if you are affected? Judging ourselves is the
> hardest thing to do.

That's a very good question. Can I stress that I would only consider
wearing the patches while flying as a last resort. As for effects,
there are two categories. First, drowsiness. I have worn them enough
to be confident that FOR ME there is no problem with drowsiness. It's
only a potential side effect - some people are strongly affected and
some not at all. Second, other impairments. I have not seen anything
in the literature - I read this up quite carefully, as a lay person,
before using the patches whilst sailing single-handed - to back up the
suggestion that Scopolamine generally or even commonly has similar
effects to alcohol. If I did decide to try it then I would certainly
fly with an instructor and ask for a really tricky check flight. Any
problems and of course I wouldn't fly solo.

Ian

[Doug Hoffman[_2_]]

Cats wrote:

>> If affected do not drive or operate machinery.

> Who is going to judge if you are affected? Judging ourselves is the
> hardest thing to do.

The same person that judges if you are fit to fly based on all factors:
Had enough sleep? Backache? Headache? Leg(s)/Arm(s) ache?
Emotionally fit? The list is endless. If you are in doubt about being
able to judge if you are fit to fly, then don't fly.

Regards,

-Doug

[Cats]

On Dec 29, 11:55*am, Doug Hoffman <no.spam> wrote:
> Cats wrote:
> >> If affected do not drive or operate machinery.
> > Who is going to judge if you are affected? *Judging ourselves is the
> > hardest thing to do.
>
> The same person that judges if you are fit to fly based on all factors:
> Had enough sleep? *Backache? *Headache? *Leg(s)/Arm(s) ache?
> Emotionally fit? *The list is endless. *If you are in doubt about being
> able to judge if you are fit to fly, then don't fly.

The problem as I understand it with this drug is that what it impairs
in those affected are the faculties we use to decide if we are
impaired...

[Doug Hoffman[_2_]]

Cats wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:55 am, Doug Hoffman <no.spam> wrote:
>> Cats wrote:
>>>> If affected do not drive or operate machinery.
>>> Who is going to judge if you are affected? Judging ourselves is the
>>> hardest thing to do.

>> The same person that judges if you are fit to fly based on all factors:
>> Had enough sleep? Backache? Headache? Leg(s)/Arm(s) ache?
>> Emotionally fit? The list is endless. If you are in doubt about being
>> able to judge if you are fit to fly, then don't fly.

> The problem as I understand it with this drug is that what it impairs
> in those affected are the faculties we use to decide if we are
> impaired...

It is up to you and your judgment to decide to do something like what
Ian has suggested:

"If I did decide to try it then I would certainly
fly with an instructor and ask for a really tricky
check flight. Any problems and of course I wouldn't
fly solo."


Now, if this drug is so perverse that when taken it causes one to then
cancel the flight evaluation, then we really do have a problem. ;-)


Regards,

-Doug

[Ian]

On 29 Dec, 18:38, Cats > wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:55 am, Doug Hoffman <no.spam> wrote:

> > The same person that judges if you are fit to fly based on all factors:
> > Had enough sleep? Backache? Headache? Leg(s)/Arm(s) ache?
> > Emotionally fit? The list is endless. If you are in doubt about being
> > able to judge if you are fit to fly, then don't fly.
>
> The problem as I understand it with this drug is that what it impairs
> in those affected are the faculties we use to decide if we are
> impaired...

That claim has been made, but I have seen no evidence here or
elsewhere to support it. The four main side effects of Scopolamine -
are dry mouth, drowsiness, dizziness and blurred vision. Of these only
the dry mouth is common.

The claim that a Scopaderm TTS patch has the same effect as a glass of
wine does not seem to be borne out by the literature, though I am
happy, as always, to take correction on that point.

Ian