Las Vegas NV Cortez 1 VFR Arrival/Class B Airspace

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Does being cleared for this arrival automatically give you clearance
to enter Class B airspace or do you need to hear "Cleared to enter
Class B airspace" as well.

Ron Lee

[[email protected]]

Ron Lee > wrote:
> Does being cleared for this arrival automatically give you clearance
> to enter Class B airspace or do you need to hear "Cleared to enter
> Class B airspace" as well.

Since the Cortez arrival requires you to go through class B, and
clearance is required before you start the arrival, no.

However, one wonders why go to North Las Vegas when Henderson is
much easier to get in and out of, much friendlier to GA, and is
cheaper.

Though if you do use Henderson, use their free shuttle back to the
airport, not a cab; few of the cab drivers know how to get there
and take you on a scenic and expensive tour of the Henderson area.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

wrote:
>However, one wonders why go to North Las Vegas when Henderson is
>much easier to get in and out of, much friendlier to GA, and is
>cheaper.

I just checked the reviews on Airnav and HND would be simpler. Graci

Ron Lee

[Dane Spearing]

In article >,
> wrote:
>However, one wonders why go to North Las Vegas when Henderson is
>much easier to get in and out of, much friendlier to GA, and is
>cheaper.
>
>Though if you do use Henderson, use their free shuttle back to the
>airport, not a cab; few of the cab drivers know how to get there
>and take you on a scenic and expensive tour of the Henderson area.

?!? The fuel prices at HND and VGT are usually very close to one
another (less than $0.05/gal difference). At this moment, according
to airnav, both of them have a self-serve price of $4.09. The nightly
tie-down fees are also the same ($6.50/night, IIRC).

I've flown in to both HND and VGT many times, and find the prices and
service levels to be comparable, if not nearly identical. Both airports
also have free shuttles that will take you to your destination.

As for dealing with the Class B airspace while flying into VGT, I've never
ever had any problems getting a clearance from approach. In my experiences,
the Las Vegas Approach controllers are some of the best I've ever dealt
with. They are very used to simultaneously dealing with both the big boys
and the propeller-heads, and always seem to be very accomodating to those
unfamiliar with the local airspace. Don't let having to deal with Class B
airspace be a deciding factor in choosing your destination in this case.

In the end, my decision to land at VGT vs HND revolves around which airport
is closer to my final destination in Las Vegas. VGT is a bit closer to the
strip.

-- Dane

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does being cleared for this arrival automatically give you clearance
> to enter Class B airspace or do you need to hear "Cleared to enter
> Class B airspace" as well.
>

"The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area."

I'm not familiar with that arrival, but you don't have to hear "Cleared to
enter Class B airspace" if you're operating under another clearance that
meets the requirement above.

[[email protected]]

Dane Spearing > wrote:
> In article >,
> > wrote:
> >However, one wonders why go to North Las Vegas when Henderson is
> >much easier to get in and out of, much friendlier to GA, and is
> >cheaper.
> >
> >Though if you do use Henderson, use their free shuttle back to the
> >airport, not a cab; few of the cab drivers know how to get there
> >and take you on a scenic and expensive tour of the Henderson area.

> ?!? The fuel prices at HND and VGT are usually very close to one
> another (less than $0.05/gal difference). At this moment, according
> to airnav, both of them have a self-serve price of $4.09. The nightly
> tie-down fees are also the same ($6.50/night, IIRC).

> I've flown in to both HND and VGT many times, and find the prices and
> service levels to be comparable, if not nearly identical. Both airports
> also have free shuttles that will take you to your destination.

> As for dealing with the Class B airspace while flying into VGT, I've never
> ever had any problems getting a clearance from approach. In my experiences,
> the Las Vegas Approach controllers are some of the best I've ever dealt
> with. They are very used to simultaneously dealing with both the big boys
> and the propeller-heads, and always seem to be very accomodating to those
> unfamiliar with the local airspace. Don't let having to deal with Class B
> airspace be a deciding factor in choosing your destination in this case.

> In the end, my decision to land at VGT vs HND revolves around which airport
> is closer to my final destination in Las Vegas. VGT is a bit closer to the
> strip.

When's the last time you flew into HND?

They are continually improving their service.

In September HND was $5/night for singles and the premium on full service
gas was $.05 AIR.

I will continue to use HND because of the fantastic service that treats
you great whether you're in a Gulfstream or a 2-hole experimental.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:35:38 +0000 (UTC),
(Dane Spearing) wrote in >:

>In the end, my decision to land at VGT vs HND revolves around which airport
>is closer to my final destination in Las Vegas.

KLAS is closer than either of those.

[BT]

A Clearance from ATC is required to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival should include
the words.. "cleared to enter Class B", if not.. ask
Most likely the phraseology will be, "N123VG, Cleared to enter Class B via
the Cortez 1 arrival to North Las Vegas Airport. Maintain VFR."

Most likely you will be restricted by ATC to maintain 3500MSL until in
contact with VGT Tower dependent on their traffic pattern operations. They
run parallel traffic patterns to 12L/30R and 12R/30L on split tower
frequencies. Pattern altitude is 3000MSL.

The Cortez Arrival is the old "Showboat" arrival, until it was imploded. It
was easy to see the Showboat.. it is harder to spot the El Cortez.

BT
VGT based

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
> Does being cleared for this arrival automatically give you clearance
> to enter Class B airspace or do you need to hear "Cleared to enter
> Class B airspace" as well.
>
> Ron Lee

[BT]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:35:38 +0000 (UTC),
> (Dane Spearing) wrote in >:
>
>>In the end, my decision to land at VGT vs HND revolves around which
>>airport
>>is closer to my final destination in Las Vegas.
>
> KLAS is closer than either of those.

You may not want to pay the fee at KLAS.

B

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:45:50 -0800, "BT" > wrote
in >:

>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:35:38 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Dane Spearing) wrote in >:
>>
>>>In the end, my decision to land at VGT vs HND revolves around which
>>>airport
>>>is closer to my final destination in Las Vegas.
>>
>> KLAS is closer than either of those.
>
>You may not want to pay the fee at KLAS.
>
>B
>

Not a problem at the Executive terminal; just top off the tanks. Fee
Waived. First class service; free shuttle van to and from.

[John Godwin]

"BT" > wrote in news:i%Zaj.48759$KU2.1753
@newsfe11.phx:

> You may not want to pay the fee at KLAS.

You may also not want to deal with the crappy tower controllers (been
there, done that).

--

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>
> A Clearance from ATC is required to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival should
> include the words.. "cleared to enter Class B", if not.. ask
> Most likely the phraseology will be, "N123VG, Cleared to enter Class B via
> the Cortez 1 arrival to North Las Vegas Airport. Maintain VFR."
>

A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words, "cleared
to enter Class B". The clearance requirement for Class B entry is satisfied
by the clearance for the arrival.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 7:06*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words, "cleared
> to enter Class B". *The clearance requirement for Class B entry is satisfied
> by the clearance for the arrival.

WRONG

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 7:06 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
>>
>> A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words,
>> "cleared
>> to enter Class B". The clearance requirement for Class B entry is
>> satisfied
>> by the clearance for the arrival.
>>
>
> WRONG
>

Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 9:56*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.

Because you have not provided a reference that ***clearly states*** an
arrival procedure is a clearance into Bravo.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BeechSundowner

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 9:56 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
>>
>> Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.
>>
>
> Because you have not provided a reference that ***clearly states*** an
> arrival procedure is a clearance into Bravo.
>

Here ya go:


Title 14: Aeronautics and Space

PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES

§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 10:13*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> (1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
> jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

Not enough as I saw this.

Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.

What you say is like saying cleared for an approach is a clearance for
a landing. You know that's not right just as being cleared Cortez1
arrival is not a clearance into Las Vegas Bravo..

SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
Bravo". I bet you can't.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html

3.2.3 covers my position. Specifically An ATC clearance is required
for all aircraft to operate in the area. Class B airspace is not the
same area as an arrival procedure area, and you know this.

You must hear cleared into Bravo. A clearance on an arrival procedure
does not meet this requirement and you know this.

Until you provide a reference otherwise that clearly states a
clearance on an arrival procedure is clearance into Bravo (and that is
what you are saying) YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.

You must hear the words cleared into Bravo. I dont' know of any
exceptions nor have I came across any references that gives
exceptions. Provide references that gives exceptions.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BeechSundowner

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:40:07 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote in
>:

>On Dec 22, 10:13*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
>wrote:
>
>> (1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
>> jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
>
[...]
>
>SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
>enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
>that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
>Bravo". I bet you can't.

He already has. If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
Bravo."

Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." Here's a link for
you:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/INDEX.HTM

FAA Order 7110.65R

Air Traffic Control

February 16, 2006

Includes Change 1 effective August 3, 2006,
Change 2 effective March 15, 2007,
and Change 3 effective August 30, 2007

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 10:13 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
>>
>> (1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
>> having
>> jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
>>
>
> Not enough as I saw this.
>
> Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
> arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
> what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.
>

Where did you see that?


>
> What you say is like saying cleared for an approach is a clearance for
> a landing. You know that's not right just as being cleared Cortez1
> arrival is not a clearance into Las Vegas Bravo.
>

No, what I say is like saying an ATC clearance for a procedure that enters
Class B airspace issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that
area satisfies the clearance requirement for Class B airspace entry.


>
> SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
> enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
> that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
> Bravo". I bet you can't.
>

SHOW ME WHERE hearing the words "cleared into Bravo" is required for entry
to Class B airspace. I bet you can't.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html

>
> 3.2.3 covers my position. Specifically An ATC clearance is required
> for all aircraft to operate in the area. Class B airspace is not the
> same area as an arrival procedure area, and you know this.
>

I see nothing in AIM para 3-2-3 that covers your position. Please specify
what you are referring to.


>
> You must hear cleared into Bravo. A clearance on an arrival procedure
> does not meet this requirement and you know this.
>

Where is it written that one must hear "cleared into Bravo"?


>
> Until you provide a reference otherwise that clearly states a
> clearance on an arrival procedure is clearance into Bravo (and that is
> what you are saying) YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.
>

Why am I wrong? Is it because a clearance for the Cortez 1 arrival issued
by Las Vegas approach is not an ATC clearance? Is it because Las Vegas
approach is not the ATC facility having jurisdiction for the Las Vegas Class
B airspace?


>
> You must hear the words cleared into Bravo.
>

Where is that requirement found?


>
> I dont' know of any
> exceptions nor have I came across any references that gives
> exceptions. Provide references that gives exceptions.
>

Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
exceptions to it.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 11:35*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> He already has. *If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
> of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
> Bravo." *

And since when is an arrival procedure the same **area** as Bravo?

So, what you are saying if a person is on flight following landing
KLAS (after all Ron was VFR), that it's ok to hear contact tower
WITHOUT hearing the magic words "cleared to enter bravo"? I don't
think so. What's the difference between that and arrival procedure.
None.

Arrival procedure is not the same as Bravo airspace. An arrival
procedure does not trump airspace rules, and Bravo requires a
clearance to enter it, implied or not via the approval would not show
up on the tapes those magic words "cleared into Bravo".

> Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
> Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
> regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." *Here's a link for
> you:

While not regulatory as you state above, the phraseology sure supports
my position.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,

VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

Note the Via part and that's what BT said.

Let me go this route, I will not bet my ticket on Steven's advise.

Unless I am IFR, I will expect to hear cleared into Bravo just as the
phraseology suggest above, and since an arrival procedure is not the
same as Bravo airspace, I don't think Steven is right. Rules clearly
state, you must be cleared into the airspace (area).

Allen

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 11:50*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
> exceptions to it.

Your very own reference shows the requirement I must be cleared to
enter the area (class B).

An arrival procedure does not necessarily be all inclusive in Class
B.

[[email protected]]

> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 10:13?am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> wrote:

> > (1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
> > jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

> Not enough as I saw this.

> Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
> arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
> what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.

The Cortez route ->REQUIRES<- you to fly through class B.

If you have been cleared to fly the Cortez route, you ->MUST<- fly
through class B.

From the Cortez route:

"Cross Lava Butte at and maintain 3500' MSL until crossing the
Spaghetti Bowl or advised by ATC."

The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
at the surface.

Look at the Las Vegas TAC.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 12:05*pm, wrote:

> The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
> at the surface.
>
> Look at the Las Vegas TAC.

I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,
but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
to get cleared into Bravo.

The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).

You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words.
Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
specifically saying cleared into bravo causes confusion as just in
this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
position.

The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
airpsace.

Allen

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 11:35 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>
>> He already has. If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
>> of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
>> Bravo."
>
> And since when is an arrival procedure the same **area** as Bravo?
>

Huh?


>
> So, what you are saying if a person is on flight following landing
> KLAS (after all Ron was VFR), that it's ok to hear contact tower
> WITHOUT hearing the magic words "cleared to enter bravo"?
>

No, that's not what anyone is saying.


>
> I don't think so. What's the difference between that and arrival
> procedure.
> None.
>

It's like the difference between a sheep and a Buick.


>
> Arrival procedure is not the same as Bravo airspace. An arrival
> procedure does not trump airspace rules, and Bravo requires a
> clearance to enter it, implied or not via the approval would not show
> up on the tapes those magic words "cleared into Bravo".
>

Please explain why a clearance for a procedure that penetrates Class B
airspace is not a clearance to enter Class B airspace.


>
> Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
> Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
> regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." Here's a link for
> you:
>


>
> Let me go this route, I will not bet my ticket on Steven's advise.
>

You have a ticket?!


>
> Unless I am IFR, I will expect to hear cleared into Bravo just as the
> phraseology suggest above, and since an arrival procedure is not the
> same as Bravo airspace, I don't think Steven is right. Rules clearly
> state, you must be cleared into the airspace (area).
>

Why do you expect to hear "cleared into Bravo" when VFR but not when IFR?

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 1:35*pm, wrote:

> You have to be cleared for the Cortez route before you start on the
> Cortez route.

That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
actual clearance)

If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.

Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.

Allen

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 11:50 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
>>
>> Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
>> exceptions to it.
>>
>
> Your very own reference shows the requirement I must be cleared to
> enter the area (class B).
>

Yes, but you said there's a requirement to hear the words "cleared into
Bravo." You show me that requirement and I'll show you all of the
exceptions to it. Good luck with your search.


>
> An arrival procedure does not necessarily be all inclusive in Class B.
>

What does that mean?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,
> but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
> to get cleared into Bravo.
>

If you're cleared for the VFR arrival procedure you're cleared into Class B
airspace. An arrival procedure that didn't penetrate Class B airspace would
not require a clearance and wouldn't be particularly useful.

The Cortez 1 arrival is on the Las Vegas TAC, you can see it at
http://skyvector.com


>
> The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
> are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).
>

The Las Vegas TAC says this about the Cortez 1 arrival:

VFR transition route. ATC clearance required. See Cortez graphic on side
panel.

The statement below is just under the graphic on the side panel:

CORTEZ 1 ARRIVAL: After receiving clearance, proceed from the Wash Marina
direct to Lava Butte, thence direct the El Cortez Hotel, direct the
Spaghetti Bowl or advised by ATC. Contact North Las Vegas Tower passing the
El Cortez Hotel on 125.7.


You insist that this clearance does not meet the requirements of FAR
91.131(a)(1). Why do you believe that?


>
> You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words.
>

Prove it.


>
> Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
> specifically saying cleared into bravo causes confusion as just in
> this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
> position.
>

Nonsense. Most operations in Class B airspace are IFR, clearances to enter
Class B airspace while IFR are always implicit and nobody questions them.


>
> The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
> There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
> shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
> airpsace.
>

Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 1:35 pm, wrote:
>
> That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
> will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
> just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
> beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
> actual clearance)
>

Right, ending it here is far easier than providing some support for your
assertions.


>
> If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
> that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
> worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
> expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.
>
> Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
> procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
> airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
> clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.
>

You're not even trying to understand this.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 2:25*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
> IFR.

Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.

That's the beauty of IFR, all airspace is transparent.

Allen

[[email protected]]

> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 1:35?pm, wrote:

> > You have to be cleared for the Cortez route before you start on the
> > Cortez route.

> That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
> will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
> just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
> beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
> actual clearance)

The "next fix", if you want to call it that, is the VGT tower, at
which point Las Vegas approach is done with you.

> If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
> that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
> worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
> expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.

You will probably be waiting a while...

> Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
> procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
> airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
> clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.

The Cortez route isn't an "arrival procedure", it is a "VFR transition
route".

The instructions for a "VFR transition route" say explicitly to remain
outside class B airspace until authorization is received.

The authorization that is being referred to is the authorization to
use the "VFR transition route".

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 2:25 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
>>
>> Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
>> IFR.
>>
>
> Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
> by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.
>

What are you basing that on? Why do you make a distinction between VFR and
IFR operations while the entry requirements found in FAR 91.131 do not?

And how are you coming with that search for the "magic words"?

[[email protected]]

> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2:25?pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> wrote:

> > Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
> > IFR.

> Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
> by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.

Nope. VFR transition routes do exactly that.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 3:05*pm, wrote:

> Nope. VFR transition routes do exactly that.

THANK YOU! Makes more sense now that you put it this way.

Allen

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> And how are you coming with that search for the "magic words"?

Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
words. No skin off my back.

Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.

You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.

'nuf said.

Allen

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
> words. No skin off my back.
>
> Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
> them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.
>
> You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.
>
> 'nuf said.
>

If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
VFR or IFR.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:04:08 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote in
>:

>On Dec 22, 12:05*pm, wrote:
>
>> The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
>> at the surface.
>>
>> Look at the Las Vegas TAC.
>
>I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,

You'll find a chart here: http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523

>but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
>to get cleared into Bravo.
>
>The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
>are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).

Okay. However IFR Standard Terminal Arrivals usually come with a
clearance. I found the IFR procedure plates here:
http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdf but I
haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?

>You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words ["cleard into Class Bravo airspace"].

Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".

>Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
>specifically saying cleared into bravo[)] causes confusion as just in
>this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
>position.

Perhaps.

>The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
>There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
>shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
>airpsace.
>
>Allen


I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
ATC actually said. Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. Did ATC say,
"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? Did ATC say "cleared" at all?

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:20:21 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
>:

>
> wrote in message
...
>>
>> Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
>> words. No skin off my back.
>>
>> Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
>> them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.
>>
>> You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.
>>
>> 'nuf said.
>>
>
>If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
>airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
>VFR or IFR.
>

I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
(instead of saying "with you" or some such):

"Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition."

Then it would be clear that any violation caused by the controller's
omission of the "cleared into Class Bravo" phrase was not the fault of
the pilot.

[[email protected]]

> You'll find a chart here:http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523

Thanks!

>flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdfbut I
> haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?

http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523 (thanks to you!) You will
need to scroll left to view the legend.

> Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
> airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".

Dunno myself as my two experiecnes with Bravo was IFR handling. It
was just beaten in my head, one must be cleared into Bravo when VFR,
and how else would you get that "clearance" and acknowledgement?

> I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
> ATC actually said. *Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. *Did ATC say,
> "Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? *Did ATC say "cleared" at all?

That is true, but my contention would be for any VFR flight into
Bravo. I initally took it as a "IFR STAR" that Ron was using, but Jim
was nice enought to clear that up as a VFR transition (I know the
subject line did say VFR arrival).

Allen

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 5:57*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
> explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
> (instead of saying "with you" or some such):
>
> * * "Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
> * * *Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition." *
>
> Then it would be clear that any violation caused by the controller's
> omission of the "cleared into Class Bravo" phrase was not the fault of
> the pilot. *

Thank you Larry,

Somewhere along the line, the clearance into Bravo airspace needs to
be heard, and this is what I have been saying all along.

You just worded it better MUCH then me. :-)

Pilot requests clearance, ATC approves by sayind cleared into Bravo or
remain clear. Those are the only two choices THAT I see ATC having
when one is around Bravo airspace.

It is incumbent on the pilot to request it as you so well stated.

You can bet if I ever go VFR, I will hear those words "cleared into
Bravo" before I set a wing inside that airspace.

Allen

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
airspace.

Ron Lee

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

>I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
>ATC actually said. Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. Did ATC say,
>"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? Did ATC say "cleared" at all?
>
Actually Larry I was trying to resolve any misunderstanding BEFORE I
fly there. I just posted some info about someone who did this
recently but realize that my statement of wording is second hand and
may contain errors.

Your request makes sense.

Ron Lee

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:20:21 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote in
> >:

> >
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
> >> words. No skin off my back.
> >>
> >> Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
> >> them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.
> >>
> >> You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.
> >>
> >> 'nuf said.
> >>
> >
> >If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
> >airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
> >VFR or IFR.
> >

> I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
> explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
> (instead of saying "with you" or some such):

> "Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
> Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition."

Except that is ->NOT<- what one would do, it would be:

Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234, three thousand five hundred feet,
Wash Marina, request Cortez route.

The start and end points of a transition route are defined on the TAC.

You are ->NOT<- requesting entry into the class B, you are requesting
to fly the Cortez transition route.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[[email protected]]

Ron Lee > wrote:
> I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
> the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
> enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
> controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

> Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
> transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
> airspace.

> Ron Lee

Which is ->EXACTLY<- what one would expect if they were to actually
read the damn TAC.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

wrote:

>Ron Lee > wrote:
>> I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
>> the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
>> enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
>> controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.
>
>> Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
>> transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
>> airspace.
>
>> Ron Lee
>
>Which is ->EXACTLY<- what one would expect if they were to actually
>read the damn TAC.
>

Perhaps. I will admit to not knowing everything and since I have
never flown this type transition route I elected to get clarification
rather than do something stupid as my genetics can predispose me to
do. :)

Ron Lee

[Ron Natalie]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> I'm not familiar with that arrival, but you don't have to hear "Cleared to
> enter Class B airspace" if you're operating under another clearance that
> meets the requirement above.
>

Like "Cleared to the Las Vegas Airport as filed, climb and maintain 3000
expect 10000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 125.05,
squawk 0412..."

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2:25 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> wrote:
>
>> Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
>> IFR.
>
> Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
> by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.
>
> That's the beauty of IFR, all airspace is transparent.
>
> Allen
>
Boy oh boy, now talk about the stupidity of being cavalier with your
ticket. Steve is a 100% correct, and you are dangerously wrong.
There are a number of guys who busted P areas, TFRs, and the DC
area airspace who were operating IFR. Airspace is not transparent.
An IFR clearance is not authorization to fly willy nilly on the way
to your destination.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 9:05*pm, Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
> Boy oh boy, now talk about the stupidity of being cavalier with your
> ticket. *Steve is a 100% correct, and you are dangerously wrong.
> There are a number of guys who busted P areas, TFRs, and the DC
> area airspace who were operating IFR. * Airspace is not transparent.
> An IFR clearance is not authorization to fly willy nilly on the way
> to your destination.

Airspace last I knew was defined was by A (which I will never see) B,
C, D, E (G is uncontrolled)

IFR meets ADIZ standards since you are squawking and talking. That is
the foundation for ADIZ. FRZ is a different issue, and generally that
is busted by VFR, not IFR flights THAT I HAVE SEEN.

Therefore all of the above are "transparent" as I said on an IFR
flight plan. Once I receive my clearance, I am cleared all the way
through unless otherwise dictated by ATC. Nothing calvier about what
I said.

Can't do much on pop up TFRs, but yes, you do need to be aware of them
as well as restricted areas especially for flight planning purposes.
And prohibited areas go in part with flight planning. You fly victor
highways to stay clear of them.

I have filed quite a few times GPS direct from KMBO to KOWB which
takes me directly over a restricted area. Fort Cambell folks are
fully aware of the area and will vector me around that area. If they
haven't and I see I am headed to it, I will ask if I am cleared
through it. One can be cleared through a restricted area by ATC.

I have flown several times up near Camp David (both normal and
expanded) and IFR, you get routed on the victor highways, no big deal,
and that area is not a factor even when expanded. ADIZ again, you are
on an IFR flight plan, you are all set and ADIZ is transparent.

You don't have to get request clearance into Bravo, You don't have to
initiate a call into Charlie or Delta airspace, that is done by
virtual of you being on the IFR flight plan on handoffs. Sounds like
transparent airspace to me.

Also MOA's if you get down to it are transparent since you can't fly
through them when they are hot on IFR, and ATC will let you know. And
MOA's only become a factor when you dont' file victor highways. For
me, I fly around MOA's all the time, staying below the floor between
KMBO and KEKY. I get GPS direct approved all the time. MAA is 7000,
if I need higher, I go victor highways. To date, I haven't needed
higher. No big deal, and again transparent insofar as me picking up
my clearance as I would have planned accordingly. 7000 is mine for
the 168NM and 6000 on the return unless dictated differently by ATC.

The only merit to your post is TFR's,

Flight planning takes care of the rest of the issues therefore there
is NOTHING dangerously wrong in my thoughts.

Allen

[[email protected]]

Ron Lee > wrote:
> wrote:

> >Ron Lee > wrote:
> >> I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
> >> the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
> >> enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
> >> controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.
> >
> >> Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
> >> transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
> >> airspace.
> >
> >> Ron Lee
> >
> >Which is ->EXACTLY<- what one would expect if they were to actually
> >read the damn TAC.
> >

> Perhaps. I will admit to not knowing everything and since I have
> never flown this type transition route I elected to get clarification
> rather than do something stupid as my genetics can predispose me to
> do. :)

I can understand that.

My mode of operation is to respond "Unfamiliar, you want me to..." when
I have doubts as to exactly what ATC/tower/whoever wants/expects me to
do.

In my experience ATC is much friendlier if you admit limited ignorance
about fine details and totally unforgiving if you did no homework before
launching.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay. However IFR Standard Terminal Arrivals usually come with a
> clearance. I found the IFR procedure plates here:
> http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdf but I
> haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?
>

They're on the TAC.


>
> Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
> airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".
>

There are.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Like "Cleared to the Las Vegas Airport as filed, climb and maintain 3000
> expect 10000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 125.05,
> squawk 0412..."
>

There ya go.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
> explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
> (instead of saying "with you" or some such):
>

It's incumbent on the PIC to receive an ATC clearance that allows entry to
the Class B airspace before operating his aircraft in that area, doesn't
matter if he's operating VFR or IFR.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:16:11 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
>> explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
>> (instead of saying "with you" or some such):
>>
>
>It's incumbent on the PIC to receive an ATC clearance that allows entry to
>the Class B airspace before operating his aircraft in that area, doesn't
>matter if he's operating VFR or IFR.
>

Agreed.

But it does matter if the PIC fails to REQUEST clearance into Class B,
or for a procedure that necessitates navigation through Class B. The
request puts the onus of regulation compliance more squarely on the
shoulders of ATC, who can at times forget to explicitly issue a
clearance. In those rare situations, if a PD should happen to be
filed, it would be much more clear that the PIC knew he needed to be
cleared, and the controller erored.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:16:11 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
>> explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
>> (instead of saying "with you" or some such):
>>
>
>It's incumbent on the PIC to receive an ATC clearance that allows entry to
>the Class B airspace before operating his aircraft in that area, doesn't
>matter if he's operating VFR or IFR.
>

Agreed.

But it does matter if the PIC fails to REQUEST clearance into Class B,
or for a procedure that necessitates navigation through Class B. The
request puts the onus of regulation compliance more squarely on the
shoulders of ATC, who can at times forget to explicitly issue a
clearance. In those rare situations, if a PD should happen to be
filed, it would be much more clear that the PIC knew he needed to be
cleared, and the controller erred.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>It's incumbent on the PIC to receive an ATC clearance that allows entry to
>>the Class B airspace before operating his aircraft in that area, doesn't
>>matter if he's operating VFR or IFR.
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> But it does matter if the PIC fails to REQUEST clearance into Class B,
> or for a procedure that necessitates navigation through Class B. The
> request puts the onus of regulation compliance more squarely on the
> shoulders of ATC, who can at times forget to explicitly issue a
> clearance. In those rare situations, if a PD should happen to be
> filed, it would be much more clear that the PIC knew he needed to be
> cleared, and the controller erored.
>

It doesn't matter one bit what the pilot REQUESTS. All that matters is that
the pilot receives an ATC clearance that allows entry to the Class B
airspace before operating his aircraft in that area.

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> "Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>It's incumbent on the PIC to receive an ATC clearance that allows entry to
> >>the Class B airspace before operating his aircraft in that area, doesn't
> >>matter if he's operating VFR or IFR.
> >>
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > But it does matter if the PIC fails to REQUEST clearance into Class B,
> > or for a procedure that necessitates navigation through Class B. The
> > request puts the onus of regulation compliance more squarely on the
> > shoulders of ATC, who can at times forget to explicitly issue a
> > clearance. In those rare situations, if a PD should happen to be
> > filed, it would be much more clear that the PIC knew he needed to be
> > cleared, and the controller erored.
> >

> It doesn't matter one bit what the pilot REQUESTS. All that matters is that
> the pilot receives an ATC clearance that allows entry to the Class B
> airspace before operating his aircraft in that area.

I think that it has been drummed into VFR pilot's heads that clearance
is required to enter class B so much that class B has taken on a somewhat
mystical status in some people's minds and they can't see the forest for
the trees.

I doubt anyone would think that they have to explicitly request clearance
into class B and hear "cleared for the class bravo" before taxi or
takeoff from a class B airport, yet some seem to think so for other ATC
defined procedures where the operation within class B is part of the
definition of the procedure.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.