engine pre-oiler

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.

[jerry wass]

Get a used fuel pump from an older VW CFI (constant fuel injection) auto
--they put up 70 psi constantly---ought to last a long time pumpin oil--
just draw up high enough to not get any of the settlin's outa the sump.--
the older ones were frame mounted just ahead of the gas tank in a big
rubber jacket--about 4"x4"x8"---or you could just put quick disconnect
fittings on the plane & leave the pump in the hangar. (that's what I did
with my 855 Cummins.

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
> with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
> The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
>

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:

> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
> with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
> The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
>


What's it going to weigh, Stuart?

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 02:50:23 GMT, Jerry Wass >
wrote:

>Get a used fuel pump from an older VW CFI (constant fuel injection) auto
>--they put up 70 psi constantly---ought to last a long time pumpin oil--
>just draw up high enough to not get any of the settlin's outa the sump.--
>the older ones were frame mounted just ahead of the gas tank in a big
>rubber jacket--about 4"x4"x8"---or you could just put quick disconnect
>fittings on the plane & leave the pump in the hangar. (that's what I did
>with my 855 Cummins.
>


what aeroplane did you have powered by an 855 Cummins?
it must have handled like a truck.
just curious.

Stealth Pilot

[oilsardine[_2_]]

Why not manually operated? Thought about the pump of my hydraulic jack (2
tons). The pump is very small.

"cavelamb himself" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my
>> 0320 with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried
>> that? The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
>
> What's it going to weigh, Stuart?

[stol]

On Dec 23, 1:13*pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote:
> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
> with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. *Have any of you tried that?
> The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.

The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

stol wrote:

> On Dec 23, 1:13 pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote:
>
>>I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
>>with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
>>The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
>
> The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
> much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.
>
> Ben
> www.haaspowerair.com


Oh no - the dreaded, "it can't weigh that much" syndrome!

[stol]

On Dec 24, 1:25*pm, cavelamb himself > wrote:
> stol wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 1:13 pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote:
>
> >>I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
> >>with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. *Have any of you tried that?
> >>The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
> > The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
> > much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.
>
> > Ben
> >www.haaspowerair.com
>
> Oh no - the dreaded, "it can't weigh that much" syndrome!

Yup.... afraid so.. :<)

[jerry wass]

stol wrote:
> On Dec 24, 1:25 pm, cavelamb himself > wrote:
>> stol wrote:
>>> On Dec 23, 1:13 pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote:
>>>> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
>>>> with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
>>>> The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>>> The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
>>> much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.
>>> Ben
>>> www.haaspowerair.com
>> Oh no - the dreaded, "it can't weigh that much" syndrome!
>
> Yup.... afraid so.. :<)

Like I said--one each male & female quick disconnect fitting doesn't
weigh as much as anything else that's been talked about so far---Then
you can use any kind of pump that satisfies your expectation, even a
quart reservoir with an electric heater in it--if need be. 'cause all
this stuff stays in the hangar anyhow. When you're through, plug the
disconnected hoses together & everything is all sealed up ,ready for the
next time. Jerry

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
...
> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my
> 0320 with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried
> that? The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.

I'm thinking (never a good thing, eh?) that your objective is to prolong the
life of the engine?

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote

> Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
> Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
> outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
> breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
> some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)
>
> Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
> pre-oiling...
That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that. Where did you
come up with that?

Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?

I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote
>
>> Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
>> Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
>> outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
>> breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
>> some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)
>>
>> Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
>> pre-oiling...
> That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.

Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.

>Where did you come up with that?

Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
engine.

> Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?

I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
into the impact of PCV and engine durability.

Example (quoting the abstract):
Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
Deposits and Wear
SAE 710583
"Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
city-suburban-expressway service"

I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
or lubrication)

>
> I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
> not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
> onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.

Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.

My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:34:56 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote
>>
>>> Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
>>> Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
>>> outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
>>> breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
>>> some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)
>>>
>>> Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
>>> pre-oiling...
>> That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.
>
>Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.
>
>>Where did you come up with that?
>
>Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
>engine.
>
>> Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?
>
>I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
>into the impact of PCV and engine durability.
>
>Example (quoting the abstract):
>Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
>Deposits and Wear
>SAE 710583
>"Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
>short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
>city-suburban-expressway service"
>

With the amount of blow by and the oil use of many engines we might
even be able to simulate smoke generators, but it might keep the
"greasy side" a lot cleaner. OTOH I'd want to put an oil seperator in
line to take the oil out *before* it went back into the intake.

Roger (K8RI)
>I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
>were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
>But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
>or lubrication)
>
>>
>> I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
>> not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
>> onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.
>
>Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
>times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
>their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.
>
>My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
>probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
>showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
>I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

[jerry wass]

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:34:56 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
> Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:
>
>> "Morgans" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote
>>>
>>>> Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
>>>> Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
>>>> outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
>>>> breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
>>>> some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)
>>>>
>>>> Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
>>>> pre-oiling...
>>> That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.
>> Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.
>>
>>> Where did you come up with that?
>> Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
>> engine.
>>
>>> Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?
>> I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
>> into the impact of PCV and engine durability.
>>
>> Example (quoting the abstract):
>> Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
>> Deposits and Wear
>> SAE 710583
>> "Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
>> short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
>> city-suburban-expressway service"
>>
>
> With the amount of blow by and the oil use of many engines we might
> even be able to simulate smoke generators, but it might keep the
> "greasy side" a lot cleaner. OTOH I'd want to put an oil seperator in
> line to take the oil out *before* it went back into the intake.
>
> Roger (K8RI)
>> I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
>> were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
>> But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
>> or lubrication)
>>
>>> I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
>>> not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
>>> onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.
>> Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
>> times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
>> their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.
>>
>> My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
>> probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
>> showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
>> I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

The crankcase cleaner sounds like a good "after-flight" PM--clear out
the acid enriched moisture vapor before it condenses--of course the
inlet to the case should be dried by sucking thru a silica-gel
canister.Jerry

[[email protected]]

On Dec 25, 7:36 pm, Jerry Wass > wrote:
> stol wrote:
> > On Dec 24, 1:25 pm, cavelamb himself > wrote:
> >> stol wrote:
> >>> On Dec 23, 1:13 pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote:
> >>>> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
> >>>> with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
> >>>> The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
> >>> The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
> >>> much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.
> >>> Ben
> >>>www.haaspowerair.com
> >> Oh no - the dreaded, "it can't weigh that much" syndrome!
>
> > Yup.... afraid so.. :<)
>
> Like I said--one each male & female quick disconnect fitting doesn't
> weigh as much as anything else that's been talked about so far---Then
> you can use any kind of pump that satisfies your expectation, even a
> quart reservoir with an electric heater in it--if need be. 'cause all
> this stuff stays in the hangar anyhow. When you're through, plug the
> disconnected hoses together & everything is all sealed up ,ready for the
> next time. Jerry

I built my own manual preoiler for my A-65. Those older
Continentals have a habit of letting the oil pump drain dry past the
oil pump gear cover, even if every effort is made to get the thing
sealed up good and tight, and if that pump is dry it won't suck. No
prime, see, to close up the small gaps that leak air. So you get the
thing started and it knocks and clunks for a few seconds until you
understand that it ain't going to pump. Then you have to disconnect
the oil temperature bulb and pump oil into the screen where it'll run
down into the pump gears and prime them. Sooner ot later the front
bearings are shot from running dry too often.
Got tired of that. As a former machinist, I had no trouble
turning and milling a manual pump that draws oil from a fitting on the
tank filler neck (bent tube inside the neck that dips downward into
the oil) and pumps it via a couple of check valves and a needle
shutoff valve to the oil pressure nose fitting on the engine. It fills
the system backwards and the oil fills the pump, too. Pressure
instantly on start.
Don't ask me to build you one. No time, no wish for liability.
Waitaminnit: maybe, um, $2500?

Dan

[Dan Youngquist]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:

> what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78 Chevy you have up on
> blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump outlet plumbed into
> the crankcase

How about something simpler, like the venturi that provides vacuum on
older planes? Would that provide enough volume for effective PCV?

-Dan

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with a
helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My accumulator
that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I have been
reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is much heavier.
BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had a
raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could wipe
off the rust with a paper towel.
I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I would
like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the cockpit or
possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the weight down.
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my
>> 0320 with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried
>> that? The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
>
> I'm thinking (never a good thing, eh?) that your objective is to prolong
> the life of the engine?
>
> Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
> Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
> outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
> breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
> some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)
>
> Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
> pre-oiling...
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

[Maxwell]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with
> a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
> much heavier.
> BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had a
> raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
> wipe off the rust with a paper towel.
> I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
> pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
> circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I
> would like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the
> cockpit or possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the
> weight down.

Just some random thoughts...

- Three pounds for an accumulator seems like a good reliable and reasonable
weight solution to me, if you just don't forget to charge it before each
engine shut down.

- I don't think a fuel pump will reliably pump cold aviation motor oil. Have
you experimented with one?

- Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
cordless drill during preflight?

[Bill Daniels]

"Maxwell" > wrote in message
...

> - Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
> cordless drill during preflight?
>
Now THAT'S CLEVER. Does any such thing exist?

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

On Dec 29, 11:58 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Maxwell" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > - Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
> > cordless drill during preflight?
>
> Now THAT'S CLEVER. Does any such thing exist?
>
> Bill Daniels

There are proper aircraft preoilers out there. They just cost
money. Go to http://www.oilamatic.com/engine-tlc.htm

Dan

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Dan: Thanks for the hint but their pricing is > $1,000 and the weight is
above 7#. I'm sure that I can beat both the price and the weight. I was
just curious if anyone had ever triede to use a diesel fuel pump to pump
engine oil.

> wrote in message
...
> On Dec 29, 11:58 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> "Maxwell" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > - Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank
>> > or
>> > cordless drill during preflight?
>>
>> Now THAT'S CLEVER. Does any such thing exist?
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> There are proper aircraft preoilers out there. They just cost
> money. Go to http://www.oilamatic.com/engine-tlc.htm
>
> Dan

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps requiring
priming?
Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit of
space.
"Maxwell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing
>> with a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
>> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
>> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
>> much heavier.
>> BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had
>> a raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
>> wipe off the rust with a paper towel.
>> I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
>> pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
>> circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I
>> would like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the
>> cockpit or possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the
>> weight down.
>
> Just some random thoughts...
>
> - Three pounds for an accumulator seems like a good reliable and
> reasonable weight solution to me, if you just don't forget to charge it
> before each engine shut down.
>
> - I don't think a fuel pump will reliably pump cold aviation motor oil.
> Have you experimented with one?
>
> - Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
> cordless drill during preflight?
>
>

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with
> a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#.

Electric oil pump
<http://www.enginegearonline.com/3gpmgepumowi.html>

These folks have electric pumps,and switches that turn it off when the
engine oil pump catches up. Also will provide for oil flow if your engine
oil pump dies in flight.
<http://www.infinityaerospace.com/>

More can be found search with "engine pre-oiler pump."
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with
> a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
> much heavier.
> BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had a
> raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
> wipe off the rust with a paper towel.

I know it was kind of an, ahhh, unusual, idea, but...

Your 4130 was sitting outside the crankase where it is dry (due to you being
in the desert). However, all the stuff that wears out on your engine is
inside the crancase where the atmosphere is pretty much blow by - CO2, CO,
H2O, unburned HC with some Sulfer and NO/NO2 thrown in for the fun of it.
Nasty stuff even if it it dry outside.

You do have the advantage that, whth a helicopter, you are running the snot
out of the thing purd near all the time, so it is more likely to get good
and hot to boil the water out of the oil.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Morgans: Thanks for the link to enginegearonline. I hadn't hit them yet
and they look like they may have the answer. The other on Infiinity is also
on my favorite list.
Thanks again
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing
>> with a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
>> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
>> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#.
>
> Electric oil pump
> <http://www.enginegearonline.com/3gpmgepumowi.html>
>
> These folks have electric pumps,and switches that turn it off when the
> engine oil pump catches up. Also will provide for oil flow if your engine
> oil pump dies in flight.
> <http://www.infinityaerospace.com/>
>
> More can be found search with "engine pre-oiler pump."
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Geoff: It is very rare when I start the helo up that I don't get good hot
oil before shut down. However it don't get run every week and in fact some
times a month goes by without a start up so the pre-oiler is attracting my
attention.
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing
>> with a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
>> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
>> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
>> much heavier.
>> BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had
>> a raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
>> wipe off the rust with a paper towel.
>
> I know it was kind of an, ahhh, unusual, idea, but...
>
> Your 4130 was sitting outside the crankase where it is dry (due to you
> being in the desert). However, all the stuff that wears out on your engine
> is inside the crancase where the atmosphere is pretty much blow by - CO2,
> CO, H2O, unburned HC with some Sulfer and NO/NO2 thrown in for the fun of
> it. Nasty stuff even if it it dry outside.
>
> You do have the advantage that, whth a helicopter, you are running the
> snot out of the thing purd near all the time, so it is more likely to get
> good and hot to boil the water out of the oil.
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

[Maxwell]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
> Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
> used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
> requiring priming?

How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.

> Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
> of space.

Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited to
about a quart of prime.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 2:04 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:

> > Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
> > of space.
>
> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited to
> about a quart of prime.

A quart of prime would be six or eight times as much as is needed
to preoil the engine. My little hand-pump on my A-65 does it with ten .
75 cubic-inch strokes, for 7.5 cu. in. total. A larger engine might
take 10 or 12 cubic inches. An engine tighter than mine (61 years old
now) would take much less.
A quart has just under 58 cubic inches.

Dan

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Maxwell wrote:
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
>>used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
>>requiring priming?
>
>
> How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
> http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
> Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
> check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
> particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
> higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.
>
>
>>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
>>of space.
>
>
> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited to
> about a quart of prime.
>
>
>
>

Don't you think thi sis getting a little over the top now?

It's an O-320.

Not an R9800.

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote

> A quart of prime would be six or eight times as much as is needed
> to preoil the engine. My little hand-pump on my A-65 does it with ten .
> 75 cubic-inch strokes, for 7.5 cu. in. total. A larger engine might
> take 10 or 12 cubic inches.

Someone on the RV forum mentioned making an accumulator out of a
air-conditioning freon can. That, plus a couple valves and plumbing would
be pretty darn light.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the pre oiler will not do anything to
lubricate the camshaft, one of the parts that takes the most wear on dry
start-up.

If this is a non certified application, you could split the cases and add a
spray bar to help the cam.
--
Jim in NC

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:18:02 -0800, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
> wrote:

>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
>used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps requiring
>priming?
>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit of
>space.
>"Maxwell" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing
>>> with a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
>>> accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
>>> have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
>>> much heavier.
>>> BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had
>>> a raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
>>> wipe off the rust with a paper towel.
>>> I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
>>> pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
>>> circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I
>>> would like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the
>>> cockpit or possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the
>>> weight down.
>>
>> Just some random thoughts...
>>
>> - Three pounds for an accumulator seems like a good reliable and
>> reasonable weight solution to me, if you just don't forget to charge it
>> before each engine shut down.
>>
>> - I don't think a fuel pump will reliably pump cold aviation motor oil.
>> Have you experimented with one?
>>
>> - Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
>> cordless drill during preflight?
>>
>>
>
Grab the oil pump out of a Honda Goldwing

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Morgans: This time I'm way ahead. I had both cam and piston skirt spray
nozzles installed during the engine overhaul. It is definitely a
non-certified application. My 0320 was modified by me to run vertical.
Stu
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote
>
>> A quart of prime would be six or eight times as much as is needed
>> to preoil the engine. My little hand-pump on my A-65 does it with ten .
>> 75 cubic-inch strokes, for 7.5 cu. in. total. A larger engine might
>> take 10 or 12 cubic inches.
>
> Someone on the RV forum mentioned making an accumulator out of a
> air-conditioning freon can. That, plus a couple valves and plumbing would
> be pretty darn light.
>
> One thing to keep in mind, is that the pre oiler will not do anything to
> lubricate the camshaft, one of the parts that takes the most wear on dry
> start-up.
>
> If this is a non certified application, you could split the cases and add
> a spray bar to help the cam.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

So far the winner appears to be a little(less than 3#) 12V pump delrin gear
pump capable of 1.5 -3 gpm of oil. This unit with a check valve and a
pickup from the sump, and of course some $200+ dollars and I'm in business.
The Infinity solution is just a bit more expensive but also looks feasible.
Stu
"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
>>>used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
>>>requiring priming?
>>
>>
>> How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
>> http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
>> Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
>> check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
>> particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
>> higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.
>>
>>
>>>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
>>>of space.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>> to about a quart of prime.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Don't you think thi sis getting a little over the top now?
>
> It's an O-320.
>
> Not an R9800.
>

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:

> So far the winner appears to be a little(less than 3#) 12V pump delrin gear
> pump capable of 1.5 -3 gpm of oil. This unit with a check valve and a
> pickup from the sump, and of course some $200+ dollars and I'm in business.
> The Infinity solution is just a bit more expensive but also looks feasible.
> Stu
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> ...
>


I know what kind of machines you fly, Stuart.
That's why I didn't suggest "Flip the prop".


Three pounds isn't that bad - once.

But don't make a habit of it...


Richard

[Maxwell]

> wrote in message
...
> On Dec 30, 2:04 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:
>
>> > Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a
>> > bit
>> > of space.
>>
>> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>> to
>> about a quart of prime.
>
> A quart of prime would be six or eight times as much as is needed
> to preoil the engine. My little hand-pump on my A-65 does it with ten .
> 75 cubic-inch strokes, for 7.5 cu. in. total. A larger engine might
> take 10 or 12 cubic inches. An engine tighter than mine (61 years old
> now) would take much less.
> A quart has just under 58 cubic inches.
>

You got any photos of that rig?

[Maxwell]

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
>>>used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
>>>requiring priming?
>>
>>
>> How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
>> http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
>> Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
>> check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
>> particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
>> higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.
>>
>>
>>>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
>>>of space.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>> to about a quart of prime.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Don't you think thi sis getting a little over the top now?
>
> It's an O-320.
>
> Not an R9800.
>

What would you suggest?

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Maxwell wrote:
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>>"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might be
>>>>used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
>>>>requiring priming?
>>>
>>>
>>>How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
>>> http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
>>>Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
>>>check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
>>>particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
>>>higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a bit
>>>>of space.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>>>to about a quart of prime.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Don't you think thi sis getting a little over the top now?
>>
>>It's an O-320.
>>
>>Not an R9800.
>>
>
>
> What would you suggest?
>
>


KISS!

Keep it Simple stupid.

AND

Lighter is better.

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Maxwell: The engine is installed in my Baby Belle helicopter. It has a dry
sump located just below the accesory case and a flat plate replaces the
normal cast sump which contained the intake manifold. A new intake manifold
was constructed, drain tubes made for the valve covers and an oil return was
fashioned connected to the accesory case. Works like gangbusters so far
(230hrs). If you want I could snap a shot and send them to you via e-mail?
Stu
"Maxwell" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Dec 30, 2:04 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:
>>
>>> > Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a
>>> > bit
>>> > of space.
>>>
>>> Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>>> to
>>> about a quart of prime.
>>
>> A quart of prime would be six or eight times as much as is needed
>> to preoil the engine. My little hand-pump on my A-65 does it with ten .
>> 75 cubic-inch strokes, for 7.5 cu. in. total. A larger engine might
>> take 10 or 12 cubic inches. An engine tighter than mine (61 years old
>> now) would take much less.
>> A quart has just under 58 cubic inches.
>>
>
> You got any photos of that rig?
>

[Maxwell]

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
...
>
> KISS!
>
> Keep it Simple stupid.
>
> AND
>
> Lighter is better.
>

Agreed. But what do you suggest would be lighter and simpler?

[Maxwell]

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
> Maxwell: The engine is installed in my Baby Belle helicopter. It has a
> dry sump located just below the accesory case and a flat plate replaces
> the normal cast sump which contained the intake manifold. A new intake
> manifold was constructed, drain tubes made for the valve covers and an oil
> return was fashioned connected to the accesory case. Works like
> gangbusters so far (230hrs). If you want I could snap a shot and send
> them to you via e-mail?

That's ok Stu, I have a pretty good idea what your installation looks like.
I was trying to picture the installation Dan keeps referring to.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 31, 9:18 am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in messagenews:uqGdnbOh57S2juTanZ2dnUVZ_qGknZ2d@iwvis p.com...
>
> > Maxwell: The engine is installed in my Baby Belle helicopter. It has a
> > dry sump located just below the accesory case and a flat plate replaces
> > the normal cast sump which contained the intake manifold. A new intake
> > manifold was constructed, drain tubes made for the valve covers and an oil
> > return was fashioned connected to the accesory case. Works like
> > gangbusters so far (230hrs). If you want I could snap a shot and send
> > them to you via e-mail?
>
> That's ok Stu, I have a pretty good idea what your installation looks like.
> I was trying to picture the installation Dan keeps referring to.

None so far. Next time I have the cowling off I'll take
some, and then I'll have to set up some account somewhere to post
them.

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 7:27 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:

> One thing to keep in mind, is that the pre oiler will not do anything to
> lubricate the camshaft, one of the parts that takes the most wear on dry
> start-up.
>
> If this is a non certified application, you could split the cases and add a
> spray bar to help the cam.
> --
> Jim in NC

Lycoming is now installing roller tappets in most of their factory
overhauls, and I would suppose they're building the new engines with
them, too. They're likely finding too much cam and lifter wear in the
engines cores they get back. The rollers would be happy with minimal
oil during startup.



Dan

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Maxwell wrote:
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>KISS!
>>
>>Keep it Simple stupid.
>>
>>AND
>>
>>Lighter is better.
>>
>
>
> Agreed. But what do you suggest would be lighter and simpler?
>
>


Well, the first question is - does it really NEED a pre-oiler?

If it has roller tappets installed, it really doesn't need the preoiler.

If it doesn't have roller tappets, I'd add those before adding an oiler.

YMMV


Richard

[[email protected]]

On Dec 31, 11:28 am, cavelamb himself > wrote:
> Maxwell wrote:
> > "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >>KISS!
>
> >>Keep it Simple stupid.
>
> >>AND
>
> >>Lighter is better.
>
> > Agreed. But what do you suggest would be lighter and simpler?
>
> Well, the first question is - does it really NEED a pre-oiler?
>
> If it has roller tappets installed, it really doesn't need the preoiler.
>
> If it doesn't have roller tappets, I'd add those before adding an oiler.
>
> YMMV
>
> Richard

The case has to be remachined to accept roller tappets; the
bore is squared off to keep the tappet roller lined up with the cam.
And the cam profile is different.
In short, you buy an engine from Lycoming.

The preoiler still helps with bearing wear. My A-65 had the
front rod bearing and crank journal badly worn, since the oil arrives
some time after start. The wear was a little less on the next journal,
and the back two improved over that. Told me that the front bearing
was oil-starved for too long too many times.
The galleries drain after shutdown, though the bearings and
tappet bores. Preoiling helps, at least in this old engine. The
Lycomings we fly every day in training don't have any wear issues and
could easily go 3000 hours. They're still really strong at TBO.

Dan

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Yeah, Yeah, I know all about the "lighter" stuff. I've been throwing the
parts in the air and only using the ones that didn't come down. I've got
some serious scars from head injuries inflicted by rejected parts and am
having a hell of a time finding where the good ones went. But I agree
"lighter is better"

Stu
"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Maxwell wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Maxwell: Do you know of a tiny gear pump or where to look that might
>>>>>be used by hand or cordless drill? Is there a problem with gear pumps
>>>>>requiring priming?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How about something like this, or perhaps something like it in aluminum.
>>>> http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsModel_00RGPump.htm
>>>>Just mount it below the sump so it's always primed. Just include a good
>>>>check valve so you couldn't loose oil presure back through it. This
>>>>particular size would probably be best driven by a cordless drill, but a
>>>>higher displacement unit might be turned with a had crank.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yep in some ways the accumulator looks good except it does take up a
>>>>>bit of space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, and useless if you forget to reset it during shutdown, and limited
>>>>to about a quart of prime.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Don't you think thi sis getting a little over the top now?
>>>
>>>It's an O-320.
>>>
>>>Not an R9800.
>>>
>>
>>
>> What would you suggest?
>>
>>
>
>
> KISS!
>
> Keep it Simple stupid.
>
> AND
>
> Lighter is better.
>