Hilarious

[[email protected]]

knockoff ? Sure, mind you, it has a cabin that was designed by
australian firm FACC, engine is from GE, wing design is from antonov.
btw, i heard that the only thing that american can really manufacture
now is boeing, american cars are only the verge of bankruptcy thanks
to Japan, ask chrysler if you don't believe me. almost the entire
american market now is dominated by Japanese brands, what a pity for a
country that hated Japanese brands so much only 2 decades ago.

sometimes it makes me laugh to think what would happen to boeing if
japan was to make passenger planes. lol

God bless america ! :D

[Jim Stewart]

wrote:
> knockoff ? Sure, mind you, it has a cabin that was designed by
> australian firm FACC, engine is from GE, wing design is from antonov.
> btw, i heard that the only thing that american can really manufacture
> now is boeing, american cars are only the verge of bankruptcy thanks
> to Japan, ask chrysler if you don't believe me. almost the entire
> american market now is dominated by Japanese brands, what a pity for a
> country that hated Japanese brands so much only 2 decades ago.

It was four decades ago. Honda, Toyota,
Nisson (AKA Datsun), Sony, Olympus, Panasonic
etc, etc were firmly entrenched by 1987.

Do you work in manufacturing?

> sometimes it makes me laugh to think what would happen to boeing if
> japan was to make passenger planes. lol
>
> God bless america ! :D

[[email protected]]

Jim Stewart wrote:
> wrote:
> > knockoff ? Sure, mind you, it has a cabin that was designed by
> > australian firm FACC, engine is from GE, wing design is from antonov.
> > btw, i heard that the only thing that american can really manufacture
> > now is boeing, american cars are only the verge of bankruptcy thanks
> > to Japan, ask chrysler if you don't believe me. almost the entire
> > american market now is dominated by Japanese brands, what a pity for a
> > country that hated Japanese brands so much only 2 decades ago.
>
> It was four decades ago. Honda, Toyota,
> Nisson (AKA Datsun), Sony, Olympus, Panasonic
> etc, etc were firmly entrenched by 1987.
>
> Do you work in manufacturing?
>
> > sometimes it makes me laugh to think what would happen to boeing if
> > japan was to make passenger planes. lol
> >
> > God bless america ! :D

2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
factories in America.

God bless America !

[Jim Stewart]

wrote:
>
> Jim Stewart wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> knockoff ? Sure, mind you, it has a cabin that was designed by
>>> australian firm FACC, engine is from GE, wing design is from antonov.
>>> btw, i heard that the only thing that american can really manufacture
>>> now is boeing, american cars are only the verge of bankruptcy thanks
>>> to Japan, ask chrysler if you don't believe me. almost the entire
>>> american market now is dominated by Japanese brands, what a pity for a
>>> country that hated Japanese brands so much only 2 decades ago.
>> It was four decades ago. Honda, Toyota,
>> Nisson (AKA Datsun), Sony, Olympus, Panasonic
>> etc, etc were firmly entrenched by 1987.
>>
>> Do you work in manufacturing?
>>
>>> sometimes it makes me laugh to think what would happen to boeing if
>>> japan was to make passenger planes. lol
>>>
>>> God bless america ! :D
>
> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
> factories in America.

Oh, now I understand. You said America, but
meant auto workers. Japanese products were
largely scorned in the 50's and 60's as cheap
and poor quality. Government mandated quality
control standards fixed that. The same will
happen with Chinese goods and thus end Japan's
nice run.

BTW, there is lots of manufacturing going on
in the US. It's specialized and niche-market
oriented, but it still exists. Just try to
get some CNC metalwork done and note the prices
and leadtimes.

[gatt[_2_]]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...

> Blame it on greed and hedge funds.
> CEO's and top corporate officers are so overpaid it is driving America
> out of business. Where else could a top corporate officer write his/her
> own objectives in such a way that even if the company is failing
> financially, they still will draw their bonus for achieving their
> self-set goals.

See Carly Fiorina as an example.

Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you" seems to have been lost
on the boomer generation.

Now 1% of America is making all the money and justifying it as good for the
economy, while the middle class can't afford homes, the banks are being sold
off to communists, and even as the President admits we're addicted to
terrorist-sponsoring oil your patriotism will be questioned if you tell
people we need to stop needlessly wasting gasoline and other resources.

Meanwhile their kids and grandkids are doing what they can for their
country, fighting the war, picking up the tab and, then being called
treehuggers, socialists, traitors or whackos by boomer columnists and talk
show hosts for saying America needs to slow the hell down and figure out how
it's going to feed itself and get out of debt before China and Saudi Arabia
own our asses.


-c

[[email protected]]

> Japanese products were
> largely scorned in the 50's and 60's as cheap
> and poor quality.

Well at least that was an improvement from the 30s and 40s when they
were reputed to produce crap AND have poor eyesight and be poor
marksmen to boot.

Nowadays the Jap cars are not doing so well in terms of quality.

See latest consumer report.

We're okay. The OP can kiss (and ****) off.

[[email protected]]

> ... before China and Saudi Arabia
> own our asses.
>

Too late for that, bub.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 28, 4:20 pm, wrote:

> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
> factories in America.

My wife and I were in Africa a few weeks ago and saw many
Japanese vehicles there along with European stuff, but I was floored
to learn of a couple of makes I'd never heard of before: Great Wall
Motors (China), and Mahindra (India). Good-looking stuff but
apparently it's still rather cheap. But they'll fix that and we North
Amicans will be in even deeper trouble.

Go here: http://www.chinacartimes.com/category/great-wall-motors/

And here: http://www.mahindra.com/OurBusinesses/automobile-manufacturer.html

I bet others will show up. Doesn't look good for the big NA
automakers. Too smug for too long.

Dan

[Bob Gardner]

Not to worry!!! We will have 35 mpg cars on the road in 13 years. In the
meantime, China and India will improve their infrastructure, meaning more
cars on the road and more fuel needed. Gas will be $10 per gallon. In 2020,
some politician will suggest improving the interstate rail system, like the
railroads in Europe and Japan, and will be hailed as a genius. Then it will
be another 20 years minimum before investment in rail has any effect.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
...
> On Dec 28, 4:20 pm, wrote:
>
>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>> factories in America.
>
> My wife and I were in Africa a few weeks ago and saw many
> Japanese vehicles there along with European stuff, but I was floored
> to learn of a couple of makes I'd never heard of before: Great Wall
> Motors (China), and Mahindra (India). Good-looking stuff but
> apparently it's still rather cheap. But they'll fix that and we North
> Amicans will be in even deeper trouble.
>
> Go here: http://www.chinacartimes.com/category/great-wall-motors/
>
> And here:
> http://www.mahindra.com/OurBusinesses/automobile-manufacturer.html
>
> I bet others will show up. Doesn't look good for the big NA
> automakers. Too smug for too long.
>
> Dan
>
>

[Snowbird]

I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard when they still made
the world's best oscilloscopes.

His message was about change. "Normally, change happens only when the pain
of continuing exceeds the pain of making the change. The leaders will be
those who dare to change sooner".

Think of the day when avgas will cost $10 a gallon as it already does in
Europe, and you still want to continue flying. The Europeans already prove
it's doable, so better start preparing now.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "SB" == Snowbird > writes:

SB> I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard
^Lewis


--
You must ask your neighbor if you shall live in peace.
~ John Clark

[Matt W. Barrow]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
i.fi...
>I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard when they still made
>the world's best oscilloscopes.
>
> His message was about change. "Normally, change happens only when the pain
> of continuing exceeds the pain of making the change. The leaders will be
> those who dare to change sooner".
>
> Think of the day when avgas will cost $10 a gallon as it already does in
> Europe, and you still want to continue flying. The Europeans already prove
> it's doable, so better start preparing now.

Yes, but in Europe, the people are servants, not masters. They're used to
taking it up the wazoo.
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[gpaleo]

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote
...
.............................
...............................
> Yes, but in Europe, the people are servants, not masters. They're used to
> taking it up the wazoo.
> --
> Matt Barrow
> Performance Homes, LLC.
> Cheyenne, WY


All hail the American masters.
Servant George, from Europe.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 29, 10:11*am, "gpaleo" > wrote:
>
> All hail the American masters.
> Servant George, from Europe.

Heh. Oh no no, we're far too weak for that now.

It's ya'lls own doing: first the kings went away, replaced by
dictators, then the dictators went away, replaced by bureaucrats.

All hail the EU Bureaucrats!

Pretty soon they'll have a law about the correct way to tie your shoes
(if shoes continue to be allowed, since their manufacture is
environmentally unsound).

[[email protected]]

On Dec 29, 5:37 am, "Snowbird" > wrote:
> I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard when they still made
> the world's best oscilloscopes.
>
> His message was about change. "Normally, change happens only when the pain
> of continuing exceeds the pain of making the change. The leaders will be
> those who dare to change sooner".
>
> Think of the day when avgas will cost $10 a gallon as it already does in
> Europe, and you still want to continue flying. The Europeans already prove
> it's doable, so better start preparing now.

It might be doable for them, but it's doable for far fewer
people than it is here. We get Europeans coming to Canada to learn to
fly because it costs about a third as much as in Europe.

Dan

[Jim Stewart]

Snowbird wrote:
> I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard when they still made
> the world's best oscilloscopes.

IMHO HP never made the best oscilloscopes and
my opinion is shared by many. They certainly
did make the best spectrum, network and logic
analyzers, signal generators and voltmeters.

Their current line of digital scopes isn't
bad, but their analog scopes were never even
in the same league as Tek. There was never a
substitute for a Tek 454 or later, a 465.
The 485 was agueably the best portable scope
ever made anywhere by anyone.

> His message was about change. "Normally, change happens only when the pain
> of continuing exceeds the pain of making the change. The leaders will be
> those who dare to change sooner".
>
> Think of the day when avgas will cost $10 a gallon as it already does in
> Europe, and you still want to continue flying. The Europeans already prove
> it's doable, so better start preparing now.

Already did. I fly behind a Rotax 912. Burns
2.5 gallons/hr training and 5 gallons/hr cruising.
And that's premium mogas.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
John Smith > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> wrote:
>
> > It's ya'lls own doing: first the kings went away, replaced by
> > dictators, then the dictators went away, replaced by bureaucrats.
>
> Learn proper English.
> Y'all is singular
> All y'all is plural
> Y'all's is possessive

Are you sure about Y'all's being possessive? I would have thought Y'alls
would be the possissive (by analogy to his, its, etc), with Y'all's being a
contraction for "Y'all is" (like he's and it's).

One might reasonably ask why Y'all wouldn't take the second person singular
("are"), but I assume that if Youse takes is, then Y'all should also take
is.

[[email protected]]

> Learn proper English.
> Y'all is singular
> All y'all is plural
> Y'all's is possessive

Well, crap.

[[email protected]]

> > > It's ya'lls own doing: first the kings went away, replaced by
> > > dictators, then the dictators went away, replaced by bureaucrats.
>
> > Learn proper English.
> > Y'all is singular
> > All y'all is plural
> > Y'all's is possessive
>
> Are you sure about Y'all's being possessive? *I would have thought Y'alls
> would be the possissive (by analogy to his, its, etc), with Y'all's being a
> contraction for "Y'all is" (like he's and it's).
>
> One might reasonably ask why Y'all wouldn't take the second person singular
> ("are"), but I assume that if Youse takes is, then Y'all should also take
> is.

I meant it this way: "It's y'all's fault."

That's possessive, idn it?

[Roy Smith]

In article
>,
wrote:

> > > > It's ya'lls own doing: first the kings went away, replaced by
> > > > dictators, then the dictators went away, replaced by bureaucrats.
> >
> > > Learn proper English.
> > > Y'all is singular
> > > All y'all is plural
> > > Y'all's is possessive
> >
> > Are you sure about Y'all's being possessive? *I would have thought Y'alls
> > would be the possissive (by analogy to his, its, etc), with Y'all's being a
> > contraction for "Y'all is" (like he's and it's).
> >
> > One might reasonably ask why Y'all wouldn't take the second person singular
> > ("are"), but I assume that if Youse takes is, then Y'all should also take
> > is.
>
> I meant it this way: "It's y'all's fault."
>
> That's possessive, idn it?

I believe what you are trying to say is, "The fault belongs to y'all",
which is indeed possessive. But, my claim is that it should be written,
"It's y'alls fault". Just like you would write, "It's his fault".

[Snapper]

> wrote
>> Learn proper English.
>> Y'all is singular
>> All y'all is plural
>> Y'all's is possessive
>
> Well, crap.

Someone rolled a 7?

::dazed look::

[muff528]

> wrote in message
...
>> Learn proper English.
>> Y'all is singular
>> All y'all is plural
>> Y'all's is possessive
>
> Well, crap.

More correctly---- "Way-yell, shee-yet!"

[Jim Logajan]

Clark > wrote:

> John Smith > wrote in
> :
>
>> In article >,
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
> [snip]
>>>
>>> I believe what you are trying to say is, "The fault belongs to
>>> y'all", which is indeed possessive. But, my claim is that it should
>>> be written, "It's y'alls fault". Just like you would write, "It's
>>> his fault".
>>
>> Roy is correct. I forgot about the contraction form. I just do not
>> use it enough.
>
> Look y'all, y'all ain't sumtin ya can learn. Y'all have to grow up wit
> it. Y'all got it?
>

Sounds like classic American speech that only classic Americans can speak -
much like the classic Americans portrayed in John Steinberg's classic novel
of the depression "The Grapes of Mud" starring Henry Fondue, Jane Darnwell,
and Butchie Carradine and directed by John Fjord:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soxZ5xa3vbg

"You think this land is yer'in? Well it ain't yer'in."

A classic.

--
"Someday son, this awl will be yours."
(Carpenter addressing his son.)

[Mxsmanic]

John Smith writes:

> Learn proper English.
> Y'all is singular
> All y'all is plural
> Y'all's is possessive

Y'all ("you all") is already plural. It's a regional accommodation made to
compensate for the disappearance of the true English singular second-person
pronoun (thou). It's popular in the southern parts of the U.S.

Other variants include "you guys," "youse," "all you," and so on.

[Mxsmanic]

Roy Smith writes:

> Are you sure about Y'all's being possessive? I would have thought Y'alls
> would be the possissive (by analogy to his, its, etc), with Y'all's being a
> contraction for "Y'all is" (like he's and it's).

The apostrophe and 's' can mark both the possessive and the contraction with
"is," although the construction is normally plural. Since the whole concept
is non-standard, there are no specific rules.

> One might reasonably ask why Y'all wouldn't take the second person singular
> ("are") ...

"Are" is both the singular and plural form for the second person in modern
English, since "you" is used for both singular and plural ("thou" having
largely disappeared in modern speech).

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> John Smith writes:
>
>> Learn proper English.
>> Y'all is singular
>> All y'all is plural
>> Y'all's is possessive
>
> Y'all ("you all") is already plural. It's a regional accommodation
> made to compensate for the disappearance of the true English singular
> second-person pronoun (thou). It's popular in the southern parts of
> the U.S.
>
> Other variants include "you guys," "youse," "all you," and so on.
>

Wow, a regular scholar.

But wrong.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Roy Smith writes:
>
>> Are you sure about Y'all's being possessive? I would have thought
>> Y'alls would be the possissive (by analogy to his, its, etc), with
>> Y'all's being a contraction for "Y'all is" (like he's and it's).
>
> The apostrophe and 's' can mark both the possessive and the
> contraction with "is," although the construction is normally plural.
> Since the whole concept is non-standard, there are no specific rules.
>
>> One might reasonably ask why Y'all wouldn't take the second person
>> singular ("are") ...
>
> "Are" is both the singular and plural form for the second person in
> modern English, since "you" is used for both singular and plural
> ("thou" having largely disappeared in modern speech).
>

Nope


No wonder you're starving




Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> Clark > wrote:
>
>> John Smith > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> In article
>>> >,
>>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I believe what you are trying to say is, "The fault belongs to
>>>> y'all", which is indeed possessive. But, my claim is that it
>>>> should be written, "It's y'alls fault". Just like you would write,
>>>> "It's his fault".
>>>
>>> Roy is correct. I forgot about the contraction form. I just do not
>>> use it enough.
>>
>> Look y'all, y'all ain't sumtin ya can learn. Y'all have to grow up
>> wit it. Y'all got it?
>>
>
> Sounds like classic American speech that only classic Americans can
> speak - much like the classic Americans portrayed in John Steinberg's
> classic novel of the depression "The Grapes of Mud" starring Henry
> Fondue, Jane Darnwell, and Butchie Carradine and directed by John
> Fjord:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soxZ5xa3vbg
>
> "You think this land is yer'in? Well it ain't yer'in."

imagine if they were still aorund and on the net.

I bet they'd mis-spell tonuge all over the place.


Bertie

[AJ]

> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
> factories in America.

2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
:

>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>> factories in America.
>
> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
> and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
> Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.
>
>


Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof. Relatively
cheap to run too.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

john smith > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
> \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
>> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof.
>> Relatively cheap to run too.
>
> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>

Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.


Bertie

[muff528]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
> :
>
>>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>>> factories in America.
>>
>> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
>> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
>> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
>> and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
>> Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.
>>
>>
>
>
> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof. Relatively
> cheap to run too.
>
> Bertie

Yep, the Dart with a slant-six was probably one of the best old-lady cars of
the era. :-) My brother's 1st car was a 72 or 73 Swinger (the one with the
little flower graphic on the side). He couldn't wait to get rid of it and
get something..., anything, else so his friends would quit ragging him.
Prolly wishes he had that one back today in the condition it was then. A lot
of these old Darts grew up to be pretty "bad" with a little help from their
owners. But usually all a high school kid could afford was a set of
"shackles" and some hood pins... The mags and big tires had to wait until
summer when they had a job.

Now the K-cars were a different story. Our local Sheriff's Dept. used them
for a couple of years and all I heard from the deputy friends I had was
constant complaining about how #$@*& they were!

Tony P.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, AJ > posted:

>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open
>> many factories in America.
>
> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
> and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
> Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.
>
The big three have yet to respond to that wake-up call. There is not one
vehicle from any of them that can match the quality, economy and
reliability of most Japanese-made cars. As an example, I sold my last
Japanese car to a friend (last time I'll make *that* mistake), it is now
17 years old and still running strong with no major repairs and
less-than-minimal maintenance. Because of the significant increase in
purchase price, I don't think I'll get the same cost of ownership out of
my current model, but it is now 7 years old and runs like new, only
requiring recommended maintenance and one change of tires.

Neil

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> > AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
> \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
> > I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof. Relatively
> > cheap to run too.
>
> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!

My father had a Dodge Dart, with the slant six. I don't remember the exact
model year, but it must have been sometime in the early 70's.

I remember it had a bizarre engine problem (which was eventually fixed by a
recall). Once the engine warmed up, it would stall when (here's the
bizarre part) you made a left turn. Didn't happen when it was cold.
Didn't happen when going straight or making a right turn. Bizarre.

I vaguely remember it having to do with some rubber gasket or seal not
being happy with the then-new unleaded gas. Why it only happened on left
turns, I have no clue.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"muff528" > wrote in
news:Cn7ej.6191$4m5.4730@trnddc02:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
>> :
>>
>>>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>>>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>>>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>>>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open
>>>> many factories in America.
>>>
>>> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
>>> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
>>> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
>>> and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
>>> Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
>> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof.
>> Relatively cheap to run too.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Yep, the Dart with a slant-six was probably one of the best old-lady
> cars of the era. :-) My brother's 1st car was a 72 or 73 Swinger (the
> one with the little flower graphic on the side). He couldn't wait to
> get rid of it and get something..., anything, else so his friends
> would quit ragging him. Prolly wishes he had that one back today in
> the condition it was then. A lot of these old Darts grew up to be
> pretty "bad" with a little help from their owners. But usually all a
> high school kid could afford was a set of "shackles" and some hood
> pins... The mags and big tires had to wait until summer when they had
> a job.

I remember them like that! A Duster with shackles, an 18 YO in primer
was about the closest you could get to a clown car on the road!
>
> Now the K-cars were a different story. Our local Sheriff's Dept. used
> them for a couple of years and all I heard from the deputy friends I
> had was constant complaining about how #$@*& they were!
>

Never had th epleasure, thank god!

Bertie>
>

[Don Tabor]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 14:07:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

>
>sometimes it makes me laugh to think what would happen to boeing if
>japan was to make passenger planes. lol
>
>God bless america ! :D

Actually, US manufacturing workers are every bit as productive as
Japanese and Koreans. Our decline in the manufacturing sector is a
function of our tax system, not our businesses.

30 years ago, Europe and Asia switched to border adjustable VAT taxes
as their primary source of government revenue, but the US has
persisted as the only developed country relying entirely on income and
payroll taxes, which by international law, are not border adjustable,
for Federal revenue.

All we need do is enact a consumption tax as a complete replacement
for taxation of income (www.FairTax.org ) and the US will dominate
manufacturing of automobiles, heavy equipment and tooling just as we
already dominate airliner production.

Of course, when we do so, Europe will fall into chaos and we'll have
to go over there and get your countries back for you again.

Don


Virginia - the only State with a flag rated
"R" for partial nudity and graphic violence.

[Maxwell]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> john smith > wrote in
> :
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
>> \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
>>> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof.
>>> Relatively cheap to run too.
>>
>> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>>
>
> Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
> Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.
>
>

The engines and transmissions were not the problem. The slant 6s, the 273 &
318LAs, the Torque-Flight transmissions and Dana rear ends of that era were
almost unstoppable. The Dana rear end of that era was the predecessor for
zillions of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks to follow for many years to come.

The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in full
swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was lighted as
much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of problems with
everything from door and window operators, to heater controls, instruments,
front suspension issues and alike. What the japs were good at was building
small, lightweight and reliable cars, due to their complete attention to
every detail. I think failure of those small details sent a lot of US made
cars to the crusher while the engines and drive trains were still in pretty
good condition.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Maxwell" > wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> john smith > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
>>> \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
>>>> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof.
>>>> Relatively cheap to run too.
>>>
>>> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
>> Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.
>>
>>
>
> The engines and transmissions were not the problem. The slant 6s, the
> 273 & 318LAs, the Torque-Flight transmissions and Dana rear ends of
> that era were almost unstoppable. The Dana rear end of that era was
> the predecessor for zillions of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks to follow for
> many years to come.
>
> The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in
> full swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was
> lighted as much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of
> problems with everything from door and window operators, to heater
> controls, instruments, front suspension issues and alike. What the
> japs were good at was building small, lightweight and reliable cars,
> due to their complete attention to every detail. I think failure of
> those small details sent a lot of US made cars to the crusher while
> the engines and drive trains were still in pretty good condition.


Yeah, 'd go along with that. The fit and finish on a lot of cars was
just diabolical in the seventies. there was noting wrong with relatively
small US engines. Not much in the way of performance, but they got you
there.
Still, when you look at something like th eBMW M10 engine. Almost as
equally agricultural but wow..


Bertie

[Dave[_3_]]

Some have learned..

My 1990 Town Car is still going, reliabily and lookin good, with
owner #3....

And Toyota just got a downgrade from Consumer Reports..

Times/things constantly change..

Dave

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:11:08 GMT, "Neil Gould"
> wrote:

>Recently, AJ > posted:
>
>>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open
>>> many factories in America.
>>
>> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
>> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
>> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
>> and the K Car? The Japanese imports were a wake-up call to the Big
>> Three that our Detroit brothers were slow to respond to.
>>
>The big three have yet to respond to that wake-up call. There is not one
>vehicle from any of them that can match the quality, economy and
>reliability of most Japanese-made cars. As an example, I sold my last
>Japanese car to a friend (last time I'll make *that* mistake), it is now
>17 years old and still running strong with no major repairs and
>less-than-minimal maintenance. Because of the significant increase in
>purchase price, I don't think I'll get the same cost of ownership out of
>my current model, but it is now 7 years old and runs like new, only
>requiring recommended maintenance and one change of tires.
>
>Neil
>
>

[John Halpenny]

On Dec 31, 11:01*am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in 6.130...

> The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in full
> swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was lighted as
> much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of problems with
> everything from door and window operators, to heater controls, instruments,
> front suspension issues and alike. What the japs were good at was building
> small, lightweight and reliable cars, due to their complete attention to
> every detail. I think failure of those small details sent a lot of US made
> cars to the crusher while the engines and drive trains were still in pretty
> good condition.

My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had
fallen off.

It was a very nice car in many respects, but I could never drive at
the speed limit - there was a nasty vibration between 63 and 67 mph
that they were never able to fix. The engine lasted 45,0000 miles
before a valve job, and the body was rusted out in five years.

It could have been worse. My neighbour bought a brand new Chev at the
same time, and after three days her window fell out. Every car I
bought since has been made in Japan.

John Halpenny

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Dec 31, 2:22*pm, "Neil Gould" > wrote:
> Recently, Dave > posted:
>
> > Some have learned..
>
> > My *1990 Town Car is still going, reliabily and lookin good, with
> > owner #3....
>
> Then, it's fair to give it a two out of three, excluding the "economy"
> aspect, as I don't think Town Cars got anywhere near 30 mpg. *;-)
>
> > And Toyota just got a downgrade from Consumer Reports..
>
> Are those Toyotas Japanese-made, or made here in the US?
>
> > Times/things constantly change..
>
> That's for sure. I really hope the US auto makers wake up, but when they
> whine that it will be a hardship to meet a 35 mpg target in 15 years, I
> wonder, given the number of vehicles that meet or exceed that today.
>
> Neil

I think the US automakers have done a great job of turning around.

Wil

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

John Halpenny wrote:
>
> My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
> USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
> Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had
> fallen off.

I was 7 when this happened, but remember it like yesterday.

My parents bought a brand new, 1972 Ford Gran Torino Wagon. A week
later they loaded the three kids and we departed CT for Disney World.
Yeah, I know this sounds like "Vacation", but stay with me! <G>

On the way home, the brand new Ford developed a loud thumping noise in
the rear end while traveling though southern NJ. A tow truck driver
raised the rear end on the hook, and was able to slide the rear axle out
of the housing, still attached to the hub! The car couldn't have had
more than 3000 miles on it!

They replaced that car with a '77 Toyota Corolla wagon, which all three
of us learned to drive on. Even after 3 16 year old idiots learned to
drive it, the car lasted 200k with no major repairs. My father still
has the window sticker from the Corolla, which I think cost $3200!

[Gig601XLBuilder]

B A R R Y wrote:
> John Halpenny wrote:
>>
>> My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
>> USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
>> Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had
>> fallen off.
>
> I was 7 when this happened, but remember it like yesterday.
>
> My parents bought a brand new, 1972 Ford Gran Torino Wagon. A week
> later they loaded the three kids and we departed CT for Disney World.
> Yeah, I know this sounds like "Vacation", but stay with me! <G>
>
> On the way home, the brand new Ford developed a loud thumping noise in
> the rear end while traveling though southern NJ. A tow truck driver
> raised the rear end on the hook, and was able to slide the rear axle out
> of the housing, still attached to the hub! The car couldn't have had
> more than 3000 miles on it!
>
> They replaced that car with a '77 Toyota Corolla wagon, which all three
> of us learned to drive on. Even after 3 16 year old idiots learned to
> drive it, the car lasted 200k with no major repairs. My father still
> has the window sticker from the Corolla, which I think cost $3200!

And they kept the Ford for 4-5 years AFTER this happened? I remember
something similar happening in the late '60s with a new Ford my
Grandfather bought. He delivered the Ford back to the dealership and got
Chevy.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Dave > posted:

> Some have learned..
>
> My 1990 Town Car is still going, reliabily and lookin good, with
> owner #3....
>
Then, it's fair to give it a two out of three, excluding the "economy"
aspect, as I don't think Town Cars got anywhere near 30 mpg. ;-)

> And Toyota just got a downgrade from Consumer Reports..
>
Are those Toyotas Japanese-made, or made here in the US?

> Times/things constantly change..
>
That's for sure. I really hope the US auto makers wake up, but when they
whine that it will be a hardship to meet a 35 mpg target in 15 years, I
wonder, given the number of vehicles that meet or exceed that today.

Neil

[John Mazor[_2_]]

"John Halpenny" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 31, 11:01 am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
> 6.130...

> The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in full
> swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was lighted as
> much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of problems with
> everything from door and window operators, to heater controls, instruments,
> front suspension issues and alike. What the japs were good at was building
> small, lightweight and reliable cars, due to their complete attention to
> every detail. I think failure of those small details sent a lot of US made
> cars to the crusher while the engines and drive trains were still in pretty
> good condition.

- My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
- USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
- Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had fallen off.
-
- It was a very nice car in many respects, but I could never drive at
- the speed limit - there was a nasty vibration between 63 and 67 mph
- that they were never able to fix. The engine lasted 45,0000 miles
- before a valve job, and the body was rusted out in five years.
-
- It could have been worse. My neighbour bought a brand new Chev at the
- same time, and after three days her window fell out. Every car I
- bought since has been made in Japan.

My first new car was a 1968 Chevy Nova. Nothing fancy anywhere on it, not the best
performing car by any means, but it was cheap, reliable, and adequate for my needs at the
time. It was simple enough that I learned basic do-it-yourself maintenance on it. It was
still in good running and body condition when I sold it 6 years later. This was before
the industry really went south in the 70s. However, I remember a mechanically minded
cousin advising us in the late 50s or early 60s that the first thing you should do when
you get a new car was take a wrench and screwdriver and tighten everything you could get
at. I guess even then the shop floor instructions were "just keep 'em moving, we'll fix
anything you miss at the dealer under warranty."

Of course, that meant that millions of PO'd customers had to have things fixed. So when
Japanese cars started appearing without those minor manufacturing glitches because of
their attention to detail, even a mediocre import carried an aura of quality compared to
the U.S. equivalents. Their comparatively better attention to details in design vs.
domestic models further eroded the U.S. car image. (OTOH, in the late 80s my wife bought
a Japanese import that we sold less than a year later because as soon as we drove it home,
the finish started speckling from exposure on the boat to salt water and/or acid rain.)

U.S. car quality has improved significantly from the "slap 'em together and move 'em out"
days. I'm still driving a 1995 domestic sedan. The exterior and interior are a bit worn
but it still runs reliably and has more than adequate performance. Whenever anyone tells
me that it's time to get a new one, I point out that it's paid for and I average less than
$2k a year on maintenance, which is about 3+ months worth of new car payments when you add
in the increased insurance and taxes (both dirt cheap now). YMMV, but when it goes I'm
definitely not going to automatically rule out a domestic model.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
>
> And they kept the Ford for 4-5 years AFTER this happened?

Exactly 4 years.

I remember that Gran Torino having constant issues. Maybe it was a
Poster Child for Lemon Laws. <G> It rusted to Swiss cheese in only 4
years, too.

Both parents (divorced) have had all kinds of cars since then, but
neither has ever bought another Ford.

[Matt W. Barrow]

"John Mazor" > wrote in message
news:Tobej.40370$NL5.17655@trnddc05...
>
> - My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
> - USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
> - Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had
> fallen off.
> -
> - It was a very nice car in many respects, but I could never drive at
> - the speed limit - there was a nasty vibration between 63 and 67 mph
> - that they were never able to fix. The engine lasted 45,0000 miles
> - before a valve job, and the body was rusted out in five years.
> -
> - It could have been worse. My neighbour bought a brand new Chev at the
> - same time, and after three days her window fell out. Every car I
> - bought since has been made in Japan.

Sounds familiar.

In 1984, my wife and I traveled to Phoenix for the Christmas Holidays and
rented a Pontiac Trans-Am. It had 1700 miles on it.

When my wife went to put the rental contract in the glove compartment, the
glove box door fell of into her lap.

My last American car was a 1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic. They could never
get the cruise control, the radio, or one of the power windows to work
properly. The front end could never hold alignment for more than 10,000
miles.

I traded it for a Toyota Celica in 1979, then put 125K miles on that with
only oil changes and put new tires on it at 60,000.

Since then, it's been Toyota (Camry, two Four-Runners, a Tacoma and a couple
Tundra's), or Honda (two Accords and a Acura RL).

I frequently have to rent cars (typically American cars on the rental lots
in smaller towns) when I travel, and though Detroit has made some
improvements, they're still behind Japan by a wide margin.

Fortunately, they don't salt the roads our here in the west though many
municipalities are starting to do that since it's cheaper than sanding the
roads three or four times.

--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
B A R R Y > wrote:

> Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
> >
> > And they kept the Ford for 4-5 years AFTER this happened?
>
> Exactly 4 years.
>
> I remember that Gran Torino having constant issues. Maybe it was a
> Poster Child for Lemon Laws. <G> It rusted to Swiss cheese in only 4
> years, too.
>
> Both parents (divorced) have had all kinds of cars since then, but
> neither has ever bought another Ford.

hmmm, I guess it was lucky that I bought my first new car in 1980
and haven't had any problems with any of my domestic cars.

apparently YMDV...

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[muff528]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
...
> Recently, William Hung > posted:
>>
>> I think the US automakers have done a great job of turning around.
>>
> If it was a 360º turn, perhaps that explains why they're all tanking big
> time.
>
> Neil
>
>

Probably one of those "...three point reverse roll to knife-edge tactical
pitch-out" moves. Either that or they blew a tire and spun out. Who knows?
(apologies to Dudley :-))

[Neil Gould]

Recently, William Hung > posted:
>
> I think the US automakers have done a great job of turning around.
>
If it was a 360º turn, perhaps that explains why they're all tanking big
time.

Neil

[Dave[_3_]]

Actually..

My 1998 Town Car could get 32 mpg.. With cruise on under 115 Kph..

But that is an Imperial gallon... (Canada)

:)

Dave

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:22:11 -0600, "Neil Gould"
> wrote:


>Then, it's fair to give it a two out of three, excluding the "economy"
>aspect, as I don't think Town Cars got anywhere near 30 mpg. ;-)

>

[Snapper]

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote
> john smith wrote
>> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>>
> Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
> Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.

There used to be a lot of them here, but I don't know anyone who used one to
stop a ballistic projectile .....

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Snapper" > wrote in
u:

> "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote
>> john smith wrote
>>> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>>>
>> Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
>> Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.
>
> There used to be a lot of them here, but I don't know anyone who used
> one to stop a ballistic projectile .....


Well, I got a friend from down there who used to hunt with a semi automatic
weapon out the back of a 206 in flight. I'll ask him. if anyone would have
tried firing on a running six banger, he would.


Bertie

[Snapper]

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote
> Well, I got a friend from down there who used to hunt with a semi
> automatic
> weapon out the back of a 206 in flight.

Buffalo in the Northern Territory or tourists in Sydney?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Snapper" > wrote in news:477979fb$0$25819
:

> "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote
>> Well, I got a friend from down there who used to hunt with a semi
>> automatic
>> weapon out the back of a 206 in flight.
>
> Buffalo in the Northern Territory or tourists in Sydney?

Well, I think if he was going to shoot at something it would have been the
gay pride parade in sydney.
But it was crocs. Not sure where, though.
him and his buds got drunk and decided to shoot a prticularly large one
named "old bruce or something, just cause it's what you do. they tempted
him up to the shore with dead chickens or soemthing and then shot him. he
disappeared and they thought that was the end of him, but twenty minutes
later he jumped up into a boat some guy was working on and wrecked it. They
had only managed to **** him off as he lived for years afterwards!
Of course we nicknamed him "Croc hunter"

I miss flying with him.

Bertie

[John Mazor[_2_]]

Matt - you deleted the wrong name (John Halpenny). You also deleted my comments from my
post, left in the stuff I quoted and responded to from his posting, to which you then
responded. IOW it looks like you're quoting me. No big deal, but errors like than can be
annoying.

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mazor" > wrote in message
> news:Tobej.40370$NL5.17655@trnddc05...
>>
>> - My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
>> - USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
>> - Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had fallen off.
>> -
>> - It was a very nice car in many respects, but I could never drive at
>> - the speed limit - there was a nasty vibration between 63 and 67 mph
>> - that they were never able to fix. The engine lasted 45,0000 miles
>> - before a valve job, and the body was rusted out in five years.
>> -
>> - It could have been worse. My neighbour bought a brand new Chev at the
>> - same time, and after three days her window fell out. Every car I
>> - bought since has been made in Japan.
>
> Sounds familiar.
>
> In 1984, my wife and I traveled to Phoenix for the Christmas Holidays and rented a
> Pontiac Trans-Am. It had 1700 miles on it.
>
> When my wife went to put the rental contract in the glove compartment, the glove box
> door fell of into her lap.
>
> My last American car was a 1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic. They could never get the cruise
> control, the radio, or one of the power windows to work properly. The front end could
> never hold alignment for more than 10,000 miles.
>
> I traded it for a Toyota Celica in 1979, then put 125K miles on that with only oil
> changes and put new tires on it at 60,000.
>
> Since then, it's been Toyota (Camry, two Four-Runners, a Tacoma and a couple Tundra's),
> or Honda (two Accords and a Acura RL).
>
> I frequently have to rent cars (typically American cars on the rental lots in smaller
> towns) when I travel, and though Detroit has made some improvements, they're still
> behind Japan by a wide margin.
>
> Fortunately, they don't salt the roads our here in the west though many municipalities
> are starting to do that since it's cheaper than sanding the roads three or four times.
>
> --
> Matt Barrow
> Performance Homes, LLC.
> Cheyenne, WY

[Phil J]

On Dec 31 2007, 10:01*am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in 6.130...
>
>
>
>
>
> > john smith > wrote in
> :
>
> >> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> >>> AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
> >> \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
> >>> I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof.
> >>> Relatively cheap to run too.
>
> >> Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>
> > Yeah, just about the most buletproof engine ever. Very popular in
> > Australia, apparently, which says a lot for it.
>
> The engines and transmissions were not the problem. The slant 6s, the 273 &
> 318LAs, the Torque-Flight transmissions and Dana rear ends of that era were
> almost unstoppable. The Dana rear end of that era was the predecessor for
> zillions of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks to follow for many years to come.
>
> The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in full
> swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was lighted as
> much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of problems with
> everything from door and window operators, to heater controls, instruments,
> front suspension issues and alike. What the japs were good at was building
> small, lightweight and reliable cars, due to their complete attention to
> every detail. I think failure of those small details sent a lot of US made
> cars to the crusher while the engines and drive trains were still in pretty
> good condition.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I had a 71 Dart with a slant six. The engine was great. But the
body, not so much. The front right fender rusted out right above the
tire. When it rained or I drove through a puddle, I got a fountain of
water spraying up. The front suspension was torsion bars, and the
left mount rusted out and the front end dropped on that side. It was
still drivable, but the ride left a lot to be desired. I found a shop
that re-welded both strut mounts, and kept driving it.

Later I got a 77 Subaru, and it was the same story. The drive train
was great, but the body rusted to crap. The passenger side floor pan
rusted through in spots, so the passenger got wet if I hit a big
puddle. I heard a rumor that the Japanese used more recycled steel in
their cars, and that caused them to rust more easily. I doubt it was
true, but that Subaru made me wonder.

Later still, I was lucky enough to buy a K car (I was a Dodge fan back
then). That was a real piece of Krap.

Phil

[LWG]

How do you expect American companies to compete against the world when the
American companies have to pay their workers 60k -100k per year, whether
they work or not, and then support them in retirement in that same standard
of living for as long as thirty to forty years? As the standard of living
in Asian companies grows, and the worker demands match the growth, the
quality of their products will suffer in comparison as they are cost-reduced
to be competitive on the world market. Remember that as you crow about how
great the products are from developing companies, you are purchasing that
quality at the expense of your fellow workers. Please do not then complain
about how manufacturing has left our shores.

Ten years ago GM spend more for health care for its workers than for steel.
Has anyone here (except Jay) priced family health insurance? Not just your
share of the bill for group insurance that your employer subsidizes, but the
actual cost of individual insurance with family coverage? The amazing thing
is that American companies are as competitive as they are.

>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>> factories in America.

[muff528]

"LWG" > wrote in message
...

> How do you expect American companies to compete against the world when the
> American companies have to pay their workers 60k -100k per year, whether
> they work or not, and then support them in retirement in that same
> standard of living for as long as thirty to forty years?
> .................................................. ..........

> .................................................. ...Remember that as you
> crow about how great the products are from developing companies, you are
> purchasing that quality at > the expense of your fellow workers.

That.....does......not.....compute! That.......does......not......compute!

TP

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 14:37:39 +0200, "Snowbird"
> wrote:

>I once listened to Dave Platt, CEO of Hewlett-Packard when they still made
>the world's best oscilloscopes.
>
>His message was about change. "Normally, change happens only when the pain
>of continuing exceeds the pain of making the change. The leaders will be
>those who dare to change sooner".
>
>Think of the day when avgas will cost $10 a gallon as it already does in
>Europe, and you still want to continue flying. The Europeans already prove
>it's doable, so better start preparing now.

Unfortunately due to regulations and cost GA in Europe is a mere
shadow of what we see in the US.

Roger (K8RI)
>

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:15:42 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Not to worry!!! We will have 35 mpg cars on the road in 13 years. In the

There are a number of fairly nice cars that will do that or close to
it already. Several economy cars can do well better. My wife's hybrid
gets an honest 47 all around.

>meantime, China and India will improve their infrastructure, meaning more
>cars on the road and more fuel needed. Gas will be $10 per gallon. In 2020,
>some politician will suggest improving the interstate rail system, like the
>railroads in Europe and Japan, and will be hailed as a genius. Then it will
>be another 20 years minimum before investment in rail has any effect.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Dec 28, 4:20 pm, wrote:
>>
>>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American

Which was due to the quality and lack of economy of the American cars
at the time. This is when we were just getting away from "Planned
obsolescence"

>>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the

Japan made what the American public would purchase with good quality,
not what the car makers wanted to sell or the American public said
they wanted.

>>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>>> factories in America.

Check the parts in so called American made cars. Many might have a
problem with the 51% home built rule<:-))

>>
>> My wife and I were in Africa a few weeks ago and saw many
>> Japanese vehicles there along with European stuff, but I was floored
>> to learn of a couple of makes I'd never heard of before: Great Wall
>> Motors (China), and Mahindra (India). Good-looking stuff but
>> apparently it's still rather cheap. But they'll fix that and we North
>> Amicans will be in even deeper trouble.

Low labor cost in Japan gave them an advantage over American labor.
Now Korean labor prices are giving Japan competition. However the
Koreans are already worried about China and India. And so it goes...

Eventually it'll all even out, if a pandemic, nature, and accident, or
we don't wipe ourselves out.

Roger (K8RI)

>>
>> Go here: http://www.chinacartimes.com/category/great-wall-motors/
>>
>> And here:
>> http://www.mahindra.com/OurBusinesses/automobile-manufacturer.html
>>
>> I bet others will show up. Doesn't look good for the big NA
>> automakers. Too smug for too long.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>

[Blueskies]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message ...
>
> Low labor cost in Japan gave them an advantage over American labor.
> Now Korean labor prices are giving Japan competition. However the
> Koreans are already worried about China and India. And so it goes...
>
> Eventually it'll all even out, if a pandemic, nature, and accident, or
> we don't wipe ourselves out.
>
> Roger (K8RI)
>
>


The country with the lowest costs last will 'win'. Maybe that is why the dollar is so weak these days....

[Mxsmanic]

Roger (K8RI) writes:

> Unfortunately due to regulations and cost GA in Europe is a mere
> shadow of what we see in the US.

Which is worrisome, given how it is dwindling in the U.S.

[LWG]

That is to say the products made in developing countries bear little of the
cost of the social structure we expect in this country. Products from
developing countries can undercut price, or use higher-priced materials and
still be competitive on price because of vastly reduced labor costs. The
sort of jobs which involve the greatest social benefits are usually the
first to leave, as the manufacturers vote with their feet.

Outside of government (which has no responsibility to anyone, ever) and a
few legacy companies, where have you seen defined benefit plans for
employees lately?

"muff528" > wrote in message
news:NRsej.435$v_4.47@trnddc03...
>
> "LWG" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> How do you expect American companies to compete against the world when
>> the American companies have to pay their workers 60k -100k per year,
>> whether they work or not, and then support them in retirement in that
>> same standard of living for as long as thirty to forty years?
>> .................................................. ..........
>
>> .................................................. ...Remember that as you
>> crow about how great the products are from developing companies, you are
>> purchasing that quality at > the expense of your fellow workers.
>
> That.....does......not.....compute!
> That.......does......not......compute!
>
> TP
>

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:27:47 GMT, "John Mazor" >
wrote:

>
>"John Halpenny" > wrote in message
...
>On Dec 31, 11:01 am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>> 6.130...
>
>> The problem was everything else. The transition to plastics was in full
>> swing, the unibody eliminated the full frames, everything was lighted as
>> much as possible for fuel savings. I remember all kinds of problems with
>> everything from door and window operators, to heater controls, instruments,
>> front suspension issues and alike. What the japs were good at was building
>> small, lightweight and reliable cars, due to their complete attention to
>> every detail. I think failure of those small details sent a lot of US made
>> cars to the crusher while the engines and drive trains were still in pretty
>> good condition.
>
>- My first car was a brand new white '68 Mercury Cougar, made in the
>- USA. I drove home and parked in the driveway to show it off.
>- Unfortunately, I couldn't get out because the inside door handle had fallen off.
>-
>- It was a very nice car in many respects, but I could never drive at
>- the speed limit - there was a nasty vibration between 63 and 67 mph
>- that they were never able to fix. The engine lasted 45,0000 miles
>- before a valve job, and the body was rusted out in five years.
>-
>- It could have been worse. My neighbour bought a brand new Chev at the
>- same time, and after three days her window fell out. Every car I
>- bought since has been made in Japan.
>
>My first new car was a 1968 Chevy Nova. Nothing fancy anywhere on it, not the best
>performing car by any means, but it was cheap, reliable, and adequate for my needs at the

I bought a new Ford Mustang back in that era. The one with the long
nose. Beautiful car. The right front quarter panel rusted out in less
than 9 months. The hole was big enough to stick you fist through
without touching the edges. Ford said "not to worry", they'd cover
half the cost of the repair. By going to a regular body shop I
managed to get it done for about a quarter less than that. I
replaced it with an LTD as the family was growing. Drove that one
with no problems until the wheels were about to fall off.

In 81 or 2 I purchased another Mustang. On the way to work in a heavy
rain I noticed the floor was getting wet. I set up an appointment
with the dealer who promised to fix it right away. As I had a week end
I decided to look at it myself. I pulled the seats and carpet out and
what did I find? The floor pan had never been welded in or sealed to
the body. You could see daylight all the way down both sides of the
thing. How do you not do that with a unibody? Maybe the Mustang
wasn't unibody yet...MY memory gets foggy that far back. When I took
it to the dealer it was without the interior installed with the
exception of the driver's seat. When they saw the problem it was "call
the factory" and I drove a loaner for a week. At any rate I traded
for a nice new Z-28 with T-tops and a Corvette engine. (I was single
again <:-)) ). I had less than 200 miles on it and was just pulling
off the US-27 expressway at Mt Pleasant when there was a loud bang
and the car started shaking so bad it was difficult to control.

On the front of the engine there is a 3 shiv pulley. This pulley is
constructed of sheet metal that has been rolled and welded. Well, it's
supposed to be welded. It had only been tacked on one side. The
resultant flexing had caused two of the three shivs to separate in a
rather spectacular fashion. Fortunately that big fiberglass hood was
strong enough to prevent them from going through. Unfortunately it
was dark, cold, and I had no tools. Fortunately the first car by was
some one I knew and he had tools. We removed the two belts.
Fortunately the one left took care of the essentials. Of course the
dealer had to order a new pulley and that would take a week or two to
get. Soooo... I took the pulley off, and we trimmed it back to one
shive that was nice, neat, and *balanced*. Surprisingly that was the
only problem I ever had with that car.

My current car is a 99 Toyota 4-Runner (relatively small to mid size
SUV) that gets used like a truck. while my wife drives a Toyota
The 4-Runner has near 85,000 and maintenance is no more than a couple
hundred dollars per year including oil changes, plus it's been long
paid for. No problems so far, but it does need to go in to have the
rust proofing redone.

I've owned a lot of cars since my first one in 58 (56 Ford with a
police interceptor engine) to the current 4-Runner. The only ones
without problems were a 62 Bonivelle convertible, the Ford LTD, and
the 4 Runner. The only problem I had with the Trans Am (Car prior to
the 4 -Runner) was what they call the replacement for the distributor.
It's on the bottom front of the engine. It's susceptible to water and
right where it's likely to get hit by water. That was the only problem
I had with that car. I had close to 90,000 on it and had planned on
many more years with it, that is until the GMC Jimmy with all 4
burning rubber pulled out in front of me and put the right front wheel
back in the passenger compartment with me. Moved the whole firewall
back against the bottom of the dash and blew out the windshield.

Roger (K8RI)

>time. It was simple enough that I learned basic do-it-yourself maintenance on it. It was
>still in good running and body condition when I sold it 6 years later. This was before
>the industry really went south in the 70s. However, I remember a mechanically minded
>cousin advising us in the late 50s or early 60s that the first thing you should do when
>you get a new car was take a wrench and screwdriver and tighten everything you could get
>at. I guess even then the shop floor instructions were "just keep 'em moving, we'll fix
>anything you miss at the dealer under warranty."
>
>Of course, that meant that millions of PO'd customers had to have things fixed. So when
>Japanese cars started appearing without those minor manufacturing glitches because of
>their attention to detail, even a mediocre import carried an aura of quality compared to
>the U.S. equivalents. Their comparatively better attention to details in design vs.
>domestic models further eroded the U.S. car image. (OTOH, in the late 80s my wife bought
>a Japanese import that we sold less than a year later because as soon as we drove it home,
>the finish started speckling from exposure on the boat to salt water and/or acid rain.)
>
>U.S. car quality has improved significantly from the "slap 'em together and move 'em out"
>days. I'm still driving a 1995 domestic sedan. The exterior and interior are a bit worn
>but it still runs reliably and has more than adequate performance. Whenever anyone tells
>me that it's time to get a new one, I point out that it's paid for and I average less than
>$2k a year on maintenance, which is about 3+ months worth of new car payments when you add
>in the increased insurance and taxes (both dirt cheap now). YMMV, but when it goes I'm
>definitely not going to automatically rule out a domestic model.
>

[Dave[_5_]]

On Dec 31 2007, 10:11*am, Roy Smith > wrote:
> In article >,
> *john smith > wrote:
>
> > Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> > > AJ > wrote in news:615a2c9c-fa6c-4339-a9a2-
> > \> Old Dodge Darts were OK actually. Or was that your point?
> > > I had a 62 Plymouth Valiant and it was damn near bulletproof. Relatively
> > > cheap to run too.
>
> > Nothing could top the 170-"slant six"!
>
> My father had a Dodge Dart, with the slant six. *I don't remember the exact
> model year, but it must have been sometime in the early 70's.
>
> I remember it had a bizarre engine problem (which was eventually fixed by a
> recall). *Once the engine warmed up, it would stall when (here's the
> bizarre part) you made a left turn. *Didn't happen when it was cold. *
> Didn't happen when going straight or making a right turn. *Bizarre.
>
> I vaguely remember it having to do with some rubber gasket or seal not
> being happy with the then-new unleaded gas. *Why it only happened on left
> turns, I have no clue.

I had a Jeep Wagoneer that did the same thing - except it happened on
right turns. It started soon after I bought it (used). Then it
suddenly stopped stalling - and continued without the problem for
several years. The stalling returned later on. It would always start
right up afterwards. Figuring that it was a fuel float problem, I sent
the carburetor in for overhaul. Didn't help. Then I approached the
local dealer about repairs - only to be told "we don't have anybody
who works on carburetors anymore". I learned to live with the
problem.

David Johnson

[Dave[_5_]]

> The big three have yet to respond to that wake-up call.

I'd have to disagree with that. I bought a new Ford Thunderbird in
1992. It has been my daily driver ever since, and now has 180K miles.
Other than an Idle Motor (part of the fuel injection) and a wheel
bearing, it has needed nothing other than tires and brakes and normal
maintenance. Still has the original belts and hoses.

Would I buy another one? You bet your ass I would!

David Johnson

[muff528]

"LWG" > wrote in message
. ..
> That is to say the products made in developing countries bear little of
> the cost of the social structure we expect in this country. Products from
> developing countries can undercut price, or use higher-priced materials
> and still be competitive on price because of vastly reduced labor costs.
> The sort of jobs which involve the greatest social benefits are usually
> the first to leave, as the manufacturers vote with their feet.
>
> Outside of government (which has no responsibility to anyone, ever) and a
> few legacy companies, where have you seen defined benefit plans for
> employees lately?
>

What I mean is ----- Why should a consumer worry about "...purchasing that
quality at the expense of your fellow workers..." when the same workers have
demonstrated an unwillingness to contribute to the efficient production of
the product virtually causing the price to be artificially inflated? (
"...the American companies have to pay their workers 60k -100k per year,
whether they work or not, and then support them in retirement in that same
standard of living for as long as thirty to forty years?...) I'm just
wondering how the two statements can be reconciled. Are the workers entitled
to work for 60-100k with defined benefit plans and sweet retirement deals
because they simply exist as workers or because they actually contribute
profitability to their company?

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dave" > wrote

> I'd have to disagree with that. I bought a new Ford Thunderbird in
> 1992. It has been my daily driver ever since, and now has 180K miles.
> Other than an Idle Motor (part of the fuel injection) and a wheel
> bearing, it has needed nothing other than tires and brakes and normal
> maintenance. Still has the original belts and hoses.
>
> Would I buy another one? You bet your ass I would!
Yep. Other than an occasional lemon, people who think the US builds crap
are basically living projected expectations. They expect that the cars are
crap, so they think they are.

I laugh everytime one of my Japanese or German car driving friends have to
take it in for a simple repair. $100 bucks for a similar repair for my GM
car, and one thousand bucks for them.
--
Jim in NC

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Roger (K8RI) writes:
>
>> Unfortunately due to regulations and cost GA in Europe is a mere
>> shadow of what we see in the US.
>
> Which is worrisome, given how it is dwindling in the U.S.
>

Wrong again


Bertie

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Neil Gould" > wrote:

> > Yep. Other than an occasional lemon, people who think the US builds
> > crap are basically living projected expectations. They expect that
> > the cars are crap, so they think they are.
> >
> I don't think anyone expects that their 5-figure purchase is goint to be
> crap. Yet, Just reading through the various stories in this thread
> suggests that the "ay yi yi's" have it.

"ay yi yi's"?

anyway, reading the stories in this thread, I'm struck by how many people
think today's cars are crap based on their personal experiences decades
ago.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Morgans > posted:

> "Dave" > wrote
>
>> I'd have to disagree with that. I bought a new Ford Thunderbird in
>> 1992. It has been my daily driver ever since, and now has 180K miles.
>> Other than an Idle Motor (part of the fuel injection) and a wheel
>> bearing, it has needed nothing other than tires and brakes and normal
>> maintenance. Still has the original belts and hoses.
>>
>> Would I buy another one? You bet your ass I would!
>
> Yep. Other than an occasional lemon, people who think the US builds
> crap are basically living projected expectations. They expect that
> the cars are crap, so they think they are.
>
I don't think anyone expects that their 5-figure purchase is goint to be
crap. Yet, Just reading through the various stories in this thread
suggests that the "ay yi yi's" have it.

--
Neil

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Bob Noel > posted:

> In article >,
> "Neil Gould" > wrote:
>
>>> Yep. Other than an occasional lemon, people who think the US
>>> builds crap are basically living projected expectations. They
>>> expect that the cars are crap, so they think they are.
>>>
>> I don't think anyone expects that their 5-figure purchase is goint
>> to be crap. Yet, Just reading through the various stories in this
>> thread suggests that the "ay yi yi's" have it.
>
> "ay yi yi's"?
>
> anyway, reading the stories in this thread, I'm struck by how many
> people think today's cars are crap based on their personal
> experiences decades ago.
>
You know the old sayings, "Once burned, twice shy", "Fool me once, shame
on you...", etc. There are reasons why those sayings persist.

--
Neil

[Jay Honeck]

> > I'd have to disagree with that. I bought a new Ford Thunderbird in
> > 1992. It has been my daily driver ever since, and now has 180K miles.
> > Other than an Idle Motor (part of the fuel injection) and a wheel
> > bearing, it has needed nothing other than tires and brakes and normal
> > maintenance. Still has the original belts and hoses.
>
> > Would I buy another one? You bet your ass I would!
>
> *Yep. *Other than an occasional lemon, people who think the US builds crap
> are basically living projected expectations. *They expect that the cars are
> crap, so they think they are.

American cars are now good, solid, reliable vehicles. Big vehicles,
like my Ford Econoline van, are built like tanks, and last forever.
They are very nice to drive -- so long as you don't have to fuel
them.

Small American cars, OTOH, like my Ford Mustang, seem to have trouble
with fit and finish. The drive train seems to be okay (not stellar),
but the interiors are cheap, and things just don't fit together as
well as in my Subaru or Toyota. They're all evolving, though, and I
truly hope the American manufacturers get it together -- because light
vehicles are the future.

Although there will always be demand for light trucks, most of the
folks you see driving around in their big F-350s are profilers (even
here in Iowa) who probably wish they hadn't bought a vehicle that
costs $70 to fill. Demand for those high-profit-margin vehicles is
already in the dumpster, and it's only gonna get worse as fuel prices
soar -- so I sure hope new, efficient vehicles like the "Volt" are in
the pipeline.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Jay Honeck > wrote in news:c980333e-fb24-4f6f-9516-
:




> Although there will always be demand for light trucks, most of the
> folks you see driving around in their big F-350s are profilers (even
> here in Iowa) who probably wish they hadn't bought a vehicle that
> costs $70 to fill.


Yeah, you're a real credit to aviation there Jay.

Bertie

[John Mazor[_2_]]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:27:47 GMT, "John Mazor" >
> wrote:

>>My first new car was a 1968 Chevy Nova. Nothing fancy anywhere on it, not the best
>>performing car by any means, but it was cheap, reliable, and adequate for my needs at
>>the
>
> I bought a new Ford Mustang back in that era. The one with the long
> nose. Beautiful car. The right front quarter panel rusted out in less
> than 9 months. The hole was big enough to stick you fist through
> without touching the edges. Ford said "not to worry", they'd cover
> half the cost of the repair. By going to a regular body shop I
> managed to get it done for about a quarter less than that. I
> replaced it with an LTD as the family was growing. Drove that one
> with no problems until the wheels were about to fall off.
>
> In 81 or 2 I purchased another Mustang. On the way to work in a heavy
> rain I noticed the floor was getting wet. I set up an appointment
> with the dealer who promised to fix it right away. As I had a week end
> I decided to look at it myself. I pulled the seats and carpet out and
> what did I find? The floor pan had never been welded in or sealed to
> the body. You could see daylight all the way down both sides of the
> thing. How do you not do that with a unibody? Maybe the Mustang
> wasn't unibody yet...MY memory gets foggy that far back. When I took
> it to the dealer it was without the interior installed with the
> exception of the driver's seat. When they saw the problem it was "call
> the factory" and I drove a loaner for a week. At any rate I traded
> for a nice new Z-28 with T-tops and a Corvette engine. (I was single
> again <:-)) ). I had less than 200 miles on it and was just pulling
> off the US-27 expressway at Mt Pleasant when there was a loud bang
> and the car started shaking so bad it was difficult to control.
>
> On the front of the engine there is a 3 shiv pulley. This pulley is
> constructed of sheet metal that has been rolled and welded. Well, it's
> supposed to be welded. It had only been tacked on one side. The
> resultant flexing had caused two of the three shivs to separate in a
> rather spectacular fashion. Fortunately that big fiberglass hood was
> strong enough to prevent them from going through. Unfortunately it
> was dark, cold, and I had no tools. Fortunately the first car by was
> some one I knew and he had tools. We removed the two belts.
> Fortunately the one left took care of the essentials. Of course the
> dealer had to order a new pulley and that would take a week or two to
> get. Soooo... I took the pulley off, and we trimmed it back to one
> shive that was nice, neat, and *balanced*. Surprisingly that was the
> only problem I ever had with that car.
>
> My current car is a 99 Toyota 4-Runner (relatively small to mid size
> SUV) that gets used like a truck. while my wife drives a Toyota
> The 4-Runner has near 85,000 and maintenance is no more than a couple
> hundred dollars per year including oil changes, plus it's been long
> paid for. No problems so far, but it does need to go in to have the
> rust proofing redone.
>
> I've owned a lot of cars since my first one in 58 (56 Ford with a
> police interceptor engine) to the current 4-Runner. The only ones
> without problems were a 62 Bonivelle convertible, the Ford LTD, and
> the 4 Runner. The only problem I had with the Trans Am (Car prior to
> the 4 -Runner) was what they call the replacement for the distributor.
> It's on the bottom front of the engine. It's susceptible to water and
> right where it's likely to get hit by water. That was the only problem
> I had with that car. I had close to 90,000 on it and had planned on
> many more years with it, that is until the GMC Jimmy with all 4
> burning rubber pulled out in front of me and put the right front wheel
> back in the passenger compartment with me. Moved the whole firewall
> back against the bottom of the dash and blew out the windshield.
>
> Roger (K8RI)

Sounds like you encountered a lot of the "keep 'em moving and we'll fix the assembly line
mistakes under warranty" defects. Even allowing for nostalgia and reverse-nostalgia
effects, the only consistent aspect of this thread is to prove that when it comes to car
quality, "Your Mileage May Vary" and for the most part there is no rhyme or reason to
which specific domestic cars are affected.

>>time. It was simple enough that I learned basic do-it-yourself maintenance on it. It
>>was
>>still in good running and body condition when I sold it 6 years later. This was before
>>the industry really went south in the 70s. However, I remember a mechanically minded
>>cousin advising us in the late 50s or early 60s that the first thing you should do when
>>you get a new car was take a wrench and screwdriver and tighten everything you could get
>>at. I guess even then the shop floor instructions were "just keep 'em moving, we'll fix
>>anything you miss at the dealer under warranty."
>>
>>Of course, that meant that millions of PO'd customers had to have things fixed. So when
>>Japanese cars started appearing without those minor manufacturing glitches because of
>>their attention to detail, even a mediocre import carried an aura of quality compared to
>>the U.S. equivalents. Their comparatively better attention to details in design vs.
>>domestic models further eroded the U.S. car image. (OTOH, in the late 80s my wife
>>bought
>>a Japanese import that we sold less than a year later because as soon as we drove it
>>home,
>>the finish started speckling from exposure on the boat to salt water and/or acid rain.)
>>
>>U.S. car quality has improved significantly from the "slap 'em together and move 'em
>>out"
>>days. I'm still driving a 1995 domestic sedan. The exterior and interior are a bit
>>worn
>>but it still runs reliably and has more than adequate performance. Whenever anyone
>>tells
>>me that it's time to get a new one, I point out that it's paid for and I average less
>>than
>>$2k a year on maintenance, which is about 3+ months worth of new car payments when you
>>add
>>in the increased insurance and taxes (both dirt cheap now). YMMV, but when it goes I'm
>>definitely not going to automatically rule out a domestic model.

[Matt W. Barrow]

"LWG" > wrote in message
. ..
> That is to say the products made in developing countries bear little of
> the cost of the social structure we expect in this country. Products from
> developing countries can undercut price, or use higher-priced materials
> and still be competitive on price because of vastly reduced labor costs.
> The sort of jobs which involve the greatest social benefits are usually
> the first to leave, as the manufacturers vote with their feet.

So we have an enormously fat, featherbed laden "social structure" that makes
our goods uncompetitive; how is that an argument for American workers?

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:17:47 -0500, "Blueskies"
> wrote:

>
>"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message ...
>>
>> Low labor cost in Japan gave them an advantage over American labor.
>> Now Korean labor prices are giving Japan competition. However the
>> Koreans are already worried about China and India. And so it goes...
>>
>> Eventually it'll all even out, if a pandemic, nature, and accident, or
>> we don't wipe ourselves out.
>>
>> Roger (K8RI)
>>
>>
>
>
>The country with the lowest costs last will 'win'. Maybe that is why the dollar is so weak these days....

One of the reasons. Once India and China are up to speed their costs
will rise. Will Africa become a manufacturing nation? Some South
American country or will the advancement of India and China be the
final stabilizing influences where we will all rise (or sink)
together?

Roger (K8RI)
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Neil Gould" > wrote:

> > anyway, reading the stories in this thread, I'm struck by how many
> > people think today's cars are crap based on their personal
> > experiences decades ago.
> >
> You know the old sayings, "Once burned, twice shy", "Fool me once, shame
> on you...", etc. There are reasons why those sayings persist.

Understood.

However, eventually people will realize that what happened in the 60's and
70's doesn't necessarily have any relation to the quality of today's cars.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Gig601XLBuilder]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> "Neil Gould" > wrote:
>
>>> anyway, reading the stories in this thread, I'm struck by how many
>>> people think today's cars are crap based on their personal
>>> experiences decades ago.
>>>
>> You know the old sayings, "Once burned, twice shy", "Fool me once, shame
>> on you...", etc. There are reasons why those sayings persist.
>
> Understood.
>
> However, eventually people will realize that what happened in the 60's and
> 70's doesn't necessarily have any relation to the quality of today's cars.
>

Below is the J.D. Powers Overall Mechanical Quality ratings for new 2007
cars that got either 4 or 5 stars (or what ever they call their rating
marks).

Lexus

BMW

Buick

Honda

Infiniti

Lincoln

Mercedes-Benz

Mercury

Porsche

Toyota

[LWG]

I agree with you. But the problem is that although I have no particular
affection for the character of the workers who have created this monster, we
lose the jobs for a long, long time. I am concerned about the future of the
country, and the job base here. I understand that many opportunities exist
now for our kids which we couldn't have dreamed of, but I worry about the
future with little to no manufacturing base.

> What I mean is ----- Why should a consumer worry about "...purchasing that
> quality at the expense of your fellow workers..." when the same workers
> have demonstrated an unwillingness to contribute to the efficient
> production of the product virtually causing the price to be artificially
> inflated? ( "...the American companies have to pay their workers 60k -100k
> per year, whether they work or not, and then support them in retirement in
> that same standard of living for as long as thirty to forty years?...) I'm
> just wondering how the two statements can be reconciled. Are the workers
> entitled to work for 60-100k with defined benefit plans and sweet
> retirement deals because they simply exist as workers or because they
> actually contribute profitability to their company?
>

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Dec 31 2007, 3:29*pm, "muff528" > wrote:
> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Recently, William Hung > posted:
>
> >> I think the US automakers have done a great job of turning around.
>
> > If it was a 360º turn, perhaps that explains why they're all tanking big
> > time.
>
> > Neil
>
> Probably one of those "...three point reverse roll to knife-edge tactical
> pitch-out" moves. Either that or they blew a tire and spun out. Who knows?
> (apologies to Dudley :-))

I meant quality wise. The quality has improved significantly. Will
it save them? I don't know.

Wil

[Rich Ahrens[_2_]]

AJ wrote:
>> 2 decades ago, alot of American car factories were shut down due to
>> the surge of Japanese cars and because of that alot of American
>> factories workers held resentment against Japanese cars, and the
>> situation only got better when Japanese automakers decide to open many
>> factories in America.
>
> 2 decades ago the Japanese got a strong foothold here because
> Americans saw that the imports were well-made, tough and economical,
> while the American product was mostly crap. Remember the Dodge Dart
> and the K Car?

Oh yeah. When I moved to California in the 80s, I figured I really ought
to enjoy the opportunity to drive a convertible. The Chrysler Lebaron
was the only new one in my price range at the time. Took delivery, and
the next day returned to the dealer with a full page, typewritten, of
defects they need to fix. Starting with replacing the windshield (badly
orange peeled) and fixing the roof latch casting that broke the first
time I took the top down and put it back up.

And customer service? Took two hours of arguing to get the to give me a
loaner since I wasn't about to drive around in a car where I couldn't
secure the top. When I got in the van to go get the car, another
customer was sitting there looking shell-shocked. I asked him what was
up. He had shown up to pick his car up from the shop, and they told him
that they had accidentally torched it - burned it right up. Nice.

ObAviationContent: The empty lot next to this dealer is where a Westwind
bizjet augered in after being caught in the wake turbulence behind a 757
on approach into SNA, leading to the increased separation requirements
for traffic following 757s.