instrument rating worth pursuing?

[[email protected]]

Hi everyone:

I searched the archives for a discussion of this topic, but found
nothing recent, so here it goes.

I got my power license two years ago. Shortly after I saw the light
and was converted to gliders. I just passed my glider checkride a
week ago. Alas, now I am back in school in Eastern Washington state
where there are few gliders in the air and many inches of snow on the
ground. The nearest things with wings are Cessnas at the local FBO.
So I am thinking of doing more power flying and perhaps an instrument
rating. (There are no aerobatics or tailwheel instructors nearby.)

Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.

To those of you who have instrument ratings - how has the instrument
rating helped with your glider flying? Also, how has power flying
helped with your glider flying?

Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.

Happy new year!
-Teresa

[jeplane]

Hello Teresa.

I got my instrument rating to be used professionally, and I can assure
you that it has nothing to do with soaring or glider flying. I wish I
could tell you differently, but that's just the plain truth!...:-)

With that being said, there is no doubt that flying in IMC WILL make
you a better pilot overall, and at a minimum, a safer pilot when you
will be flying in powered planes.

As for soaring, perhaps will you have a better understanding of STAR's
and SID's, and learn to avoid theses areas in a glider.

Absolutely do it if you want to increase your flying knowledge, ( it's
one of the hardest rating to get in my opinion, but very rewarding)
but it won't do much with your soaring X-country goals.

Richard
Phoenix, AZ
Citation Excel rated, but still prefer flying gliders by far!

[[email protected]]

On Dec 29, 3:20*am, " > wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I searched the archives for a discussion of this topic, but found
> nothing recent, so here it goes.
>
> I got my power license two years ago. *Shortly after I saw the light
> and was converted to gliders. *I just passed my glider checkride a
> week ago. Alas, now I am back in school in Eastern Washington state
> where there are few gliders in the air and many inches of snow on the
> ground. *The nearest things with wings are Cessnas at the local FBO.
> So I am thinking of doing more power flying and perhaps an instrument
> rating. *(There are no aerobatics or tailwheel instructors nearby.)
>
> Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
> power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
> flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
> instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
> better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.
>
> To those of you who have instrument ratings - how has the instrument
> rating helped with your glider flying? * Also, how has power flying
> helped with your glider flying?
>
> Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
>
> Happy new year!
> -Teresa


Teresa,

I just added my single engine after 20 years in gliders and it was one
of the best things I could have done for my glider students, many who
are already power pilots. I'm persuing the instrument rating as well
and have noted many similarities between instrument flying and cross-
country soaring mostly in how one uses one's mind. That is a subject
in itself that I wont go into here. There are some very exciting
cross-country soaring possibilities that only instrument rated pilots
can consider. Most glider people think this is dangerous and insane
and I hesitate to even mention it here. If you are interested search
this group for posts on it or email me.

All that aside, probably the best thing you can do to progress as a
soaring pilot is to own your own glider. It doesn't have to be a
$20000 or more high performance machine. Just ask the Cherokee kid on
this forum. You can probably find something usable for the price of
an instrument rating if you look hard and network and are willing to
put a little TLC into it.

I would enjoy talking with you more about this. Any chance you can
make it to the convention? You will find a lot of great contacts,
info, and discussions there.

Matt Michael

[Bill Daniels]

"jeplane" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Teresa.
>
> I got my instrument rating to be used professionally, and I can assure
> you that it has nothing to do with soaring or glider flying. I wish I
> could tell you differently, but that's just the plain truth!...:-)
>
> With that being said, there is no doubt that flying in IMC WILL make
> you a better pilot overall, and at a minimum, a safer pilot when you
> will be flying in powered planes.
>
> As for soaring, perhaps will you have a better understanding of STAR's
> and SID's, and learn to avoid theses areas in a glider.
>
> Absolutely do it if you want to increase your flying knowledge, ( it's
> one of the hardest rating to get in my opinion, but very rewarding)
> but it won't do much with your soaring X-country goals.
>
> Richard
> Phoenix, AZ
> Citation Excel rated, but still prefer flying gliders by far!

I'd mostly agree with Richard. If all you want is to improve your glider
flying, it's probably not worth the time and money. However...

Instrument training is hard because it demands dicipline. You have to think
and fly. It probably increases your multi-tasking ability or juggling
multiple activities and lines of thought at the same time which helps any
kind of flying.

There have been many threads here about becoming overwhelmed by too much
information coming from "gadgets" in the cockpit - even as simple as flying
a landing approach while monitoring the airspeed. Instrument training will
help with this since you will have to learn to deal with far more cockpit
"gadgetry" than is in any glider while flying the airplane far more
precisely than you have ever thought possible.

Finally, an instrument rating is the dividing line between amateur and
professional pilots. Not everyone can get this rating - it takes real
talent in addition to hard work. If you want to test yourself, go for it.

Bill Daniels

[HL Falbaum]

> wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone:
>
> I searched the archives for a discussion of this topic, but found
> nothing recent, so here it goes.
>
> I got my power license two years ago. Shortly after I saw the light
> and was converted to gliders. I just passed my glider checkride a
> week ago. Alas, now I am back in school in Eastern Washington state
> where there are few gliders in the air and many inches of snow on the
> ground. The nearest things with wings are Cessnas at the local FBO.
> So I am thinking of doing more power flying and perhaps an instrument
> rating. (There are no aerobatics or tailwheel instructors nearby.)
>
> Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
> power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
> flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
> instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
> better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.
>
> To those of you who have instrument ratings - how has the instrument
> rating helped with your glider flying? Also, how has power flying
> helped with your glider flying?
>
> Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
>
> Happy new year!
> -Teresa


If you want to go somewhere in an airplane, the Instrument Rating is very
worthwhile.
It is almost totally counterproductive for cross country soaring.

Why?

Instument flying is seeking the "steady state" by looking at the panel.
Cross country Soaring is dynamic, looking outside.


Hartley Falbaum

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 29, 2:20*am, " > wrote:
>
> Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.


I doubt the instrument rating will help your flying gliders unless you
intend to do cloud flying in gliders in which case, in USA, it is
essential. (see archives for that hot discussion).

I had several thousand hours VFR flying in gliders and airplanes
before I tackled the instrument rating. I already had a commercial
airplane rating and wanted to remove the restrictions. I found it the
most challenging rating to qualify for and now I do almost no actual
instrument flying. In Arizona the conditions are usually severe clear
or severe thunderstorms and not much in between. I certainly don't
regret getting the rating though and I keep legally current.

I can tell you that an instrument rating or at least knowledge of
instrument procedures and training may increase your safety when
flying gliders. It should warn you that in busy training areas there
are lots of small airplanes flying around with a student under the
hood and an instructor paying too much attention to the student and
not enough time looking outside. It should also make you aware of
arrival routes which are places you would want to avoid flying
anywhere near cloud base.

Whether you go for the rating should probably depend more on what your
power flying ambitions are.

Andy

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:

> Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
> power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
> flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
> instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
> better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.

Based on all the pilots (very, very few) that have suggested to me the
instrument rating aided their glider flying, I'd say it has very little
value. What it can do is open up airspace for what I call "extreme"
soaring: cloud flying and high altitude (Class A airspace) wave flying.
You don't sound like you are likely to pursue those for a long time.

I suggest you figure out how much the instrument rating will cost, and
consider spending the money on cross-country experiences and instruction
a with really good pilots. Two that come to mind Karl Striedieck and
Gavin Wills. A 4 or 5 hour contest flight with Karl would be a real
eye-opener, and the cost is only $200, plus whatever it costs to show up
at a contest. Gavin Wills will be offering US based instruction at
Minden and Parowan in 2008. I'm sure others can offer more suggestions.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[P. Corbett]

wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I searched the archives for a discussion of this topic, but found
> nothing recent, so here it goes.
>
> I got my power license two years ago. Shortly after I saw the light
> and was converted to gliders. I just passed my glider checkride a
> week ago. Alas, now I am back in school in Eastern Washington state
> where there are few gliders in the air and many inches of snow on the
> ground. The nearest things with wings are Cessnas at the local FBO.
> So I am thinking of doing more power flying and perhaps an instrument
> rating. (There are no aerobatics or tailwheel instructors nearby.)
>
> Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
> power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
> flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
> instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
> better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.
>
> To those of you who have instrument ratings - how has the instrument
> rating helped with your glider flying? Also, how has power flying
> helped with your glider flying?
>
> Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
>
> Happy new year!
> -Teresa

Teresa,

Consider these scenarios:

1. During a wave flight, a thick widespread under-cast forms below.
2. While thermalling under a large, strong cu, you waited too long to
leave and are drawn into cloud.

If you have an Attitude Indicator on your panel (many serious wave
pilots do) AND have the skill to use it, you can likely recover from
these problems. It is the skill using the AI that most of us lack and
this is where your rating could payoff.

Taking measures to avoid these two problems is the best course of action
but an Instrument Rating combined with frequent practice might prove
useful someday. At the very least, it is a satisfying and fun rating to
get and use.

Paul
ZZ

[[email protected]]

Hi:

Thanks to all for your thoughtful and informative responses. Based on
your feedback, what I will do is take the IFR gound course offered
locally and fly more VFR cross-countries, with an emphasis on
navigation and field-spotting. I'll also spend any and all vacations
in sunnier climes at places that offer soaring, aerobatics, or both.

happy flying,
-Teresa

[Brian[_1_]]

On Dec 30, 1:25*pm, " > wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Thanks to all for your thoughtful and informative responses. *Based on
> your feedback, what I will do is take the IFR gound course offered
> locally and fly more VFR cross-countries, with an emphasis on
> navigation and field-spotting. *I'll also spend any and all vacations
> in sunnier climes at places that offer soaring, aerobatics, or both.
>
> happy flying,
> -Teresa

I really liked the suggestion that if you really want to improve your
soaring start looking at purchasing a sailplane. You will fly more
plus it will give you plenty to do in the off season. You would be
surprised how much you can do (legally) to pet and spruce up your own
glider. As already mentioned it doesn't have to be expensive. I flew
my 1st contest at Ephrata in my 1-26.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[noel.wade]

> I really liked the suggestion that if you really want to improve your
> soaring start looking at purchasing a sailplane. You will fly more
> plus it will give you plenty to do in the off season. You would be
> surprised how much you can do (legally) to pet and spruce up your own
> glider. As already mentioned it doesn't have to be expensive. I flew
> my 1st contest at Ephrata in my 1-26.
>
> Brian
> CFIIG/ASEL

I gotta agree with Brian and the others who have posted this comment
about getting your own glider.

I started by getting my PPL (ASEL) before finding out how awesome
soaring is. I took a few flights in 2006 and got my Glider Rating in
early 2007. I have thought many times about getting Instrument-Rated,
but there are two reasons why I don't:

1) It takes money away from my soaring budget! Getting that
Instrument rating is about as expensive as getting your original PPL.
There are a LOT of materials to buy and study, and a lot of practice
in the air to learn all the different types of approaches and systems.

2) I study accident and safety reports a lot (Aviation Safety
Magazine, AvWeb's safety articles, APOA/ASF/EAA articles, etc). It
seems to me that a lot of pilots get into trouble by flying IFR when
they are not prepared for it. Flying through bad weather is not
something you can just casually hop in and do. You need to be
practiced and you need to be current. I decided that I do not have
the budget or the flying schedule that would take me IFR more than a
couple of times a year - and I would likely be "rusty" as a result.
That's no way to be when you're trying to fly in difficult
conditions! Since I can't/won't fly IFR with any regularity, I think
its safer for me personally to not have the license and the temptation
to try, when its not good flying weather.

....As far as glider ownership goes:

It took me almost a year to get in 30 flights (5 different
instructors) with my club, and get my glider rating.
I bought an inexpensive Russia AC-4a in June of this year, and have
LOVED it! I have put in 23 flights in 6 months - and averaged a
little over 2 hours per flight (we have pretty weak conditions in the
Seattle area, and cloudbase this year was rarely higher than 3k-4k
AGL). There are times when the lift is weak and spaced far apart that
I envy the 40:1 ships; but most of the time I can do well in the
glider. It handles like a sports-car, it rigs in about 5 minutes
(almost single-handedly with no rigging gear), and its light enough
that I can easily push it around the field single-handedly.

To give an idea of cost-of-ownership of an inexpensive glider like
this:
I pay about $270/month (on a $14,000 loan - long story, but basically
I put zero down)
Plus $20/month for trailer parking
Plus $800/year for insurance

It seems that people are doing syndicates less and less; but after
owning for 6 months I have to say that even with an aggressive flying
schedule like I had, a 2-person syndicate would likely have worked.
My local club has some mediocre gliders that I could have taken up on
the few days I would have been "bumped" from my Russia by a partner.
If you cut the above dollar-amounts in half it really makes a
compelling argument for private ownership! Its nice to have the
glider you want, with the panel & equipment you want, and to know the
condition of it all. :-)

Good luck!

Take care,

--Noel

[309]

On Dec 29, 1:20 am, " > wrote:
> Hi everyone:
> I got my power license two years ago. Shortly after I saw the light
> and was converted to gliders. I just passed my glider checkride a
> week ago.
> Here's my question to you all: to what extent can further training in
> power flying, in particular the instrument rating, be of use in glider
> flying? My personal goal is to pursue cross-country soaring. Would an
> instrument rating broaden my horizons and sharpen my flying, or is it
> better to conserve time, energy, and resources for gliders.
>
> To those of you who have instrument ratings - how has the instrument
> rating helped with your glider flying? Also, how has power flying
> helped with your glider flying?
>
> -Teresa

Teresa,

I firmly believe that you SHOULD pursue the instrument rating.

I had my PPASEL/Inst/Commercial ASEL/Commercial AMEL/Inst before being
lured into soaring.

After adding Commercial Glider (winch and aerotow, in the same day), I
later added ATP MEL.

What's missing? Helichoppers and Airships...but that takes even MORE
money.

My instrument training helped prepare me for what I feel is the most
overlooked aspect of cross country soaring in this thread: PRE-flight
planning. Yes, you can get some of this from VFR cross country flight
(power). You'll have far more opportunity for X-C (power) with an
instrument ticket (especially in WA).

One thing I noticed about all my flying (including aerobatics) after
taking a focused instrument syllabus: ALL of my flying was more
precise. I think my glider flying has become slightly more precise as
a result of adding the ATP after having soared for several years. I
suspect you will benefit from a similar transference of skills to your
soaring.

The instrument check ride is probably the hardest one you'll ever take
(notice, I've taken SIX of them)...well, maybe the ATP will be a
little harder, since it involves much tighter tolerances (+/- 50 ft vs
+/-100 feet on altitude, tighter airspeed and heading tolerances).
Many will tell you that the ATP is just a glorified instrument
checkride -- having them shut down an engine, etc., adds to the fun.
Oh, and FWIW, when I was about where you are in my flying career (20-
something years ago), I also swore I'd never get an ATP rating, let
alone do any work as a commercial pilot.

Bottom line: an instrument rating will make you a better PILOT,
period. Many will debate how much it will help you specifically with
soaring. Perhaps you'll one day use the instrument ticket to get out
of Seattle IFR to a VFR day at Ephrata, to really enjoy many different
types of flying in the same day. I've done that here in "sunny
southern California."

To shore up my soaring credentials, I own a 1-26, and I've flown it to
28,300 feet MSL, with a gain of over 21,000 feet -- and I've flown
diamond goal (300k Out & Return) in it. So I've got silver, gold and
two of the three diamonds in a 1-26 -- and yes, I'm hoping to add a
500k diamond distance flight when time, skill and soaring conditions
permit. I also own a 1948 Globe GC-1B Swift (power, retractable,
taildragger), and I sometimes use that to GET TO the
soaring...sometimes starting IFR.

Some are probably referring to me as the perfect masochist: six check
rides, 1-26 owner/diamond pilot, Swift Taildragger pilot (yeah, I used
to tow gliders...and banners, too).

I applaud your decision to take the instrument ground school. I
implore you to take at least a few hours of IFR FLIGHT training -- see
if it's FUN in some way (even if masochistically). It will make you a
better pilot. More precise. More confident. More comfortable
talking with FSS and ATC.

Lastly: don't EVER go IFR in an aircraft unless you and your aircraft
(glider OR power) are equipped to do so legally, proficiently and
safely. Look at all the power statistics and some of the glider
statistics: A VFR pilot/aircraft proceeding into Instrument
Meteorological Conditions (IMC) is a sure recipe for disaster.
Consider that when one is "sucked into IMC," an Instrument Rated pilot
has a _marginally_ better chance of surviving the encounter than a
pilot without instrument training. It's still not worth the gamble.

Best wishes in ALL your flying endeavors, and a happy new year to you,
too!!!

-Pete
#309