Characteristics of a good winch site

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

Lots of interest in another thread from US readers in looking for good
winch sites. I thought it might be useful for those of us from countries
where winching is common to give our list of essential and desirable
characteristics for a good winch site.

From my UK experience I'd say there are two essentials:

1. A long enough run to consistently achieve launches (nil wind) of 1500
ft or more. For 10 years I was a member of a club where on a nil wind
day one would do well to get 1300 ft. That's the difference between a
thermal-finding ratio of 80% and around 60%, which makes a huge
difference to soaring pilots. That suggests to me a cable run of around
4,000 ft.

2. Enough space so that gliders waiting to be launched can remain
gridded without being in the way of those landing. The club above has
only a narrow runway, so that gliders waiting to be launched need to be
pushed off every time someone comes in to land. This often made
launching frustrating. For safety this suggests a wide field, at least
at both ends.

A nearby flat land club has both these characteristics and is very
successfully winch only.

As desirables I'd add some hilly bits to help with thermal generation,
but these are not essential, and that grass is kinder to winch cables
(though waterlogging can reduce use of the field, so perhaps a hard
track to run the cable retrieve vehicle would be good) and is the only
surface on which retrieve winches seem to be workable.

Finally, if the site is next to a ridge I'm far more comfortable if the
field is at the foot of the ridge, rather than on top, because landing
back at the field should be possible if the ridge is unworkable.

[Brad[_2_]]

Great info Chris.
There is a place I have in mind not terribly far from where I live
that meets these requirements. The fields are in flood plain, so they
will never be developed, but that does make them soggy and underwater
occasionally......but this is only during the winter/rainy months and
then only 1 every 2 years or so. Of course, global warming might
chance things..........:)

There is a nice ridge line that runs N-S and at the N end it rises to
over 1300' and makes a bend to the east, so now there is a north and
and east face!

Cheers,
BradOn Dec 29, 11:16*am, Chris Reed >
wrote:
> Lots of interest in another thread from US readers in looking for good
> winch sites. I thought it might be useful for those of us from countries
> where winching is common to give our list of essential and desirable
> characteristics for a good winch site.
>
> *From my UK experience I'd say there are two essentials:
>
> 1. A long enough run to consistently achieve launches (nil wind) of 1500
> ft or more. For 10 years I was a member of a club where on a nil wind
> day one would do well to get 1300 ft. That's the difference between a
> thermal-finding ratio of 80% and around 60%, which makes a huge
> difference to soaring pilots. That suggests to me a cable run of around
> 4,000 ft.
>
> 2. Enough space so that gliders waiting to be launched can remain
> gridded without being in the way of those landing. The club above has
> only a narrow runway, so that gliders waiting to be launched need to be
> pushed off every time someone comes in to land. This often made
> launching frustrating. For safety this suggests a wide field, at least
> at both ends.
>
> A nearby flat land club has both these characteristics and is very
> successfully winch only.
>
> As desirables I'd add some hilly bits to help with thermal generation,
> but these are not essential, and that grass is kinder to winch cables
> (though waterlogging can reduce use of the field, so perhaps a hard
> track to run the cable retrieve vehicle would be good) and is the only
> surface on which retrieve winches seem to be workable.
>
> Finally, if the site is next to a ridge I'm far more comfortable if the
> field is at the foot of the ridge, rather than on top, because landing
> back at the field should be possible if the ridge is unworkable.

[vontresc]

On Dec 29, 6:44 pm, Brad > wrote:
> Great info Chris.
> There is a place I have in mind not terribly far from where I live
> that meets these requirements. The fields are in flood plain, so they
> will never be developed, but that does make them soggy and underwater
> occasionally......but this is only during the winter/rainy months and
> then only 1 every 2 years or so. Of course, global warming might
> chance things..........:)
>
> There is a nice ridge line that runs N-S and at the N end it rises to
> over 1300' and makes a bend to the east, so now there is a north and
> and east face!
>
> Cheers,
> BradOn Dec 29, 11:16 am, Chris Reed >
> wrote:
>
> > Lots of interest in another thread from US readers in looking for good
> > winch sites. I thought it might be useful for those of us from countries
> > where winching is common to give our list of essential and desirable
> > characteristics for a good winch site.
>
> > From my UK experience I'd say there are two essentials:
>
> > 1. A long enough run to consistently achieve launches (nil wind) of 1500
> > ft or more. For 10 years I was a member of a club where on a nil wind
> > day one would do well to get 1300 ft. That's the difference between a
> > thermal-finding ratio of 80% and around 60%, which makes a huge
> > difference to soaring pilots. That suggests to me a cable run of around
> > 4,000 ft.
>
> > 2. Enough space so that gliders waiting to be launched can remain
> > gridded without being in the way of those landing. The club above has
> > only a narrow runway, so that gliders waiting to be launched need to be
> > pushed off every time someone comes in to land. This often made
> > launching frustrating. For safety this suggests a wide field, at least
> > at both ends.
>
> > A nearby flat land club has both these characteristics and is very
> > successfully winch only.
>
> > As desirables I'd add some hilly bits to help with thermal generation,
> > but these are not essential, and that grass is kinder to winch cables
> > (though waterlogging can reduce use of the field, so perhaps a hard
> > track to run the cable retrieve vehicle would be good) and is the only
> > surface on which retrieve winches seem to be workable.
>
> > Finally, if the site is next to a ridge I'm far more comfortable if the
> > field is at the foot of the ridge, rather than on top, because landing
> > back at the field should be possible if the ridge is unworkable.

All of this winch talk is great, and I would really love to take a
winch ride again (took a demo flight in Germany many years ago). Has
anyone compiled a list of winch sited in the states?

Pete

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

vontresc wrote:
> All of this winch talk is great, and I would really love to take a
> winch ride again (took a demo flight in Germany many years ago). Has
> anyone compiled a list of winch sited in the states?

We have a fairly accurate database of US winch sites at the Yahoo Winch
Design Group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

Unfortunately, Yahoo won't let me make the database accessible to
non-members. Post you location and I'll post the relevant entries, or
join up if you like...

Marc

[vontresc]

On Dec 29, 8:49 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> vontresc wrote:
> > All of this winch talk is great, and I would really love to take a
> > winch ride again (took a demo flight in Germany many years ago). Has
> > anyone compiled a list of winch sited in the states?
>
> We have a fairly accurate database of US winch sites at the Yahoo Winch
> Design Group:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/
>
> Unfortunately, Yahoo won't let me make the database accessible to
> non-members. Post you location and I'll post the relevant entries, or
> join up if you like...
>
> Marc

Cool I'll have to join the Yahoo Group....

and for the record I am in WI

Pete

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

vontresc wrote:
> On Dec 29, 8:49 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>> vontresc wrote:
>>> All of this winch talk is great, and I would really love to take a
>>> winch ride again (took a demo flight in Germany many years ago). Has
>>> anyone compiled a list of winch sited in the states?
>> We have a fairly accurate database of US winch sites at the Yahoo Winch
>> Design Group:
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/
>>
>> Unfortunately, Yahoo won't let me make the database accessible to
>> non-members. Post you location and I'll post the relevant entries, or
>> join up if you like...
>>
>> Marc
>
> Cool I'll have to join the Yahoo Group....
>
> and for the record I am in WI

This is likely your closest option:

http://www.sandhillsoaring.org/

Marc

[Del C]

Can I add:

1) On high, well drained land, with hard runways, to
give good thermals - e.g. Lasham.

2) Approximately circular, so you can always launch
into wind - e.g. Bicester.

3) A variety of local ridges facing in various directions
- e.g. Portmoak.

4) Slightly concave in contour, to minimise cable drag
and so you can see the launch point from the winch
- e.g. Long Mynd.

5) All grass airfield to minimise cable wear - Bicester
again

It's just a shame that you can't combine the best points
from the above UK gliding sites!

Del C

At 19:18 29 December 2007, Chris Reed wrote:
>Lots of interest in another thread from US readers
>in looking for good
>winch sites. I thought it might be useful for those
>of us from countries
>where winching is common to give our list of essential
>and desirable
>characteristics for a good winch site.
>
> From my UK experience I'd say there are two essentials:
>
>1. A long enough run to consistently achieve launches
>(nil wind) of 1500
>ft or more. For 10 years I was a member of a club where
>on a nil wind
>day one would do well to get 1300 ft. That's the difference
>between a
>thermal-finding ratio of 80% and around 60%, which
>makes a huge
>difference to soaring pilots. That suggests to me a
>cable run of around
>4,000 ft.
>
>2. Enough space so that gliders waiting to be launched
>can remain
>gridded without being in the way of those landing.
>The club above has
>only a narrow runway, so that gliders waiting to be
>launched need to be
>pushed off every time someone comes in to land. This
>often made
>launching frustrating. For safety this suggests a wide
>field, at least
>at both ends.
>
>A nearby flat land club has both these characteristics
>and is very
>successfully winch only.
>
>As desirables I'd add some hilly bits to help with
>thermal generation,
>but these are not essential, and that grass is kinder
>to winch cables
>(though waterlogging can reduce use of the field, so
>perhaps a hard
>track to run the cable retrieve vehicle would be good)
>and is the only
>surface on which retrieve winches seem to be workable.
>
>Finally, if the site is next to a ridge I'm far more
>comfortable if the
>field is at the foot of the ridge, rather than on top,
>because landing
>back at the field should be possible if the ridge is
>unworkable.
>
>
>

[Malcolm Austin]

But could all get in this act!

How about Denbigh GC, with its 20 mile ridge directly behind the site.

(pity the site will close in June 2008)


"Del C" > wrote in message
...
> Can I add:
>
> 1) On high, well drained land, with hard runways, to
> give good thermals - e.g. Lasham.
>
> 2) Approximately circular, so you can always launch
> into wind - e.g. Bicester.
>
> 3) A variety of local ridges facing in various directions
> - e.g. Portmoak.
>
> 4) Slightly concave in contour, to minimise cable drag
> and so you can see the launch point from the winch
> - e.g. Long Mynd.
>
> 5) All grass airfield to minimise cable wear - Bicester
> again
>
> It's just a shame that you can't combine the best points
> from the above UK gliding sites!
>
> Del C
>
> At 19:18 29 December 2007, Chris Reed wrote:
>>Lots of interest in another thread from US readers
>>in looking for good
>>winch sites. I thought it might be useful for those
>>of us from countries
>>where winching is common to give our list of essential
>>and desirable
>>characteristics for a good winch site.
>>
>> From my UK experience I'd say there are two essentials:
>>
>>1. A long enough run to consistently achieve launches
>>(nil wind) of 1500
>>ft or more. For 10 years I was a member of a club where
>>on a nil wind
>>day one would do well to get 1300 ft. That's the difference
>>between a
>>thermal-finding ratio of 80% and around 60%, which
>>makes a huge
>>difference to soaring pilots. That suggests to me a
>>cable run of around
>>4,000 ft.
>>
>>2. Enough space so that gliders waiting to be launched
>>can remain
>>gridded without being in the way of those landing.
>>The club above has
>>only a narrow runway, so that gliders waiting to be
>>launched need to be
>>pushed off every time someone comes in to land. This
>>often made
>>launching frustrating. For safety this suggests a wide
>>field, at least
>>at both ends.
>>
>>A nearby flat land club has both these characteristics
>>and is very
>>successfully winch only.
>>
>>As desirables I'd add some hilly bits to help with
>>thermal generation,
>>but these are not essential, and that grass is kinder
>>to winch cables
>>(though waterlogging can reduce use of the field, so
>>perhaps a hard
>>track to run the cable retrieve vehicle would be good)
>>and is the only
>>surface on which retrieve winches seem to be workable.
>>
>>Finally, if the site is next to a ridge I'm far more
>>comfortable if the
>>field is at the foot of the ridge, rather than on top,
>>because landing
>>back at the field should be possible if the ridge is
>>unworkable.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Check out some of the flying sites in Germany (http://www.segelflug.de/
karte/d_karte.html). Most of the winch sites are about 1000 meters
(appx 3000 feet). I have winched from 4 different sites 3 of which
also had areotowing going on at the same time, all were about 1000
meters. At these sites I was able to thermal away with a launch height
of between 300 and 400 meters (900-1200 feet).
You don't need an "airport" to do winch operations just any old grass
field will do. Needs to be wide enough but 100 feet would do it. How
many private grass airfields are there in the U.S. that fit this bill?
I'd bet it is a lot.

Bob

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

wrote:
> You don't need an "airport" to do winch operations just any old grass
> field will do. Needs to be wide enough but 100 feet would do it. How
> many private grass airfields are there in the U.S. that fit this bill?
> I'd bet it is a lot.

There are some grass airfields in the eastern and northern US, few or no
grass airfields in the southwest (Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona,
Nevada, Utah, California). The main problem in much of the US is urban
growth patterns, most winch suitable fields that are close enough to
major population centers to support a decent size soaring community long
ago mutated into shopping malls or housing developments. That's why we
tend to use public airports, when they let us...

Marc