Parowan, Thinking Outside the Box - An Opportunity Knocks!

[Rick Culbertson]

Parowan, thinking outside the box - An opportunity knocks!

Is it just me?

With the obvious decline of soaring participants in our sport
shouldn't we really consider this a "good problem" to have, let me see
if I have this right:

"Way more Pilots want to race, not just fly but race with their fellow
pilots at a contest site than it can reasonably hold in one contest,
not only within the Region but Nation wide!"

Is this oversubscribed issue really a problem or an opportunity? I
certainly wish the SSA and all Clubs had the same problem with
students, tow pilots, instructors, club members and club ships, hell
we would all gleefully tackle that problem with creative all-inclusive
solutions, wouldn't we? Please don't tell me the best solution we can
come up with is to send eager seasoned & eager up and coming pilots
packing, look at the buzz this opportunity has generated, we can do
better.

Don't fool around with the Regional system, it seems to me to be
working exactly as intended and people are having a blast.

The simple answer as I see it is to schedule an additional contest at
the site, in this case Parowan but not a pseudo regional. I'm very
intrigued with the Super Regional concept, but not the name or its
current format. The concept as I understand it is where multiple
classes; Standard, 15m, 18m and Sports containing high caliber pilots
coming from all over the country to compete / race at the same Premier
site and at the same time!

Base the entry strictly on current pilot ranking, set a limit of 13
pilots in each class totaling 52, a reasonable quantity for Parowan.
This would be one impressive contest to fly in and to observe, pitting
the best against the best at arguably the USAs Premier contest site. I
see endless possibilities with this concept, not the least of which is
public exposure and potential for our sports growth! Call it the
"Classic" or "Western Nationals" or "Mini Nationals" or whatever but
hey if I can't fly in it I'll certainly be watching it you can count
on that.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.

Happy New Year,

Rick Culbertson - 21

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Rick Culbertson wrote:
> Don't fool around with the Regional system, it seems to me to be
> working exactly as intended and people are having a blast.
>
> The simple answer as I see it is to schedule an additional contest at
> the site, in this case Parowan but not a pseudo regional. I'm very
> intrigued with the Super Regional concept, but not the name or its
> current format. The concept as I understand it is where multiple
> classes; Standard, 15m, 18m and Sports containing high caliber pilots
> coming from all over the country to compete / race at the same Premier
> site and at the same time!

I'll go a step further outside of the box, and rant that the actual
problem may be with the national contests, rather than a few overly
popular regionals. The days when the entire family would drop
everything for two or three weeks, jump into the station wagon and drag
Dad's glider across the country are long gone.

What percentage of nationals have had a full entry list in recent years,
and where have they been located? Perhaps the east/central/west
rotation isn't really working, and it's time to consider running shorter
east/central and west/central nationals for all classes at popular
venues every year...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On Jan 1, 1:12*pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
> Parowan, thinking outside the box - An opportunity knocks!
>
> Is it just me?
>
> With the obvious decline of soaring participants in our sport
> shouldn't we really consider this a "good problem" to have, let me see
> if I have this right:
>
> "Way more Pilots want to race, not just fly but race with their fellow
> pilots at a contest site than it can reasonably hold in one contest,
> not only within the Region but Nation wide!"
>
> Is this oversubscribed issue really a problem or an opportunity? I
> certainly wish the SSA and all Clubs had the same problem with
> students, tow pilots, instructors, club members and club ships, hell
> we would all gleefully tackle that problem with creative all-inclusive
> solutions, wouldn't we? Please don't tell me the best solution we can
> come up with is to send eager seasoned & eager up and coming pilots
> packing, look at the buzz this opportunity has generated, we can do
> better.
>
> Don't fool around with the Regional system, it seems to me to be
> working exactly as intended and people are having a blast.
>
> The simple answer as I see it is to schedule an additional contest at
> the site, in this case Parowan but not a pseudo regional. I'm very
> intrigued with the Super Regional concept, but not the name or its
> current format. The concept as I understand it is where multiple
> classes; Standard, 15m, 18m and Sports containing high caliber pilots
> coming from all over the country to compete / race at the same Premier
> site and at the same time!
>
> Base the entry strictly on current pilot ranking, set a limit of 13
> pilots in each class totaling 52, a reasonable quantity for Parowan.
> This would be one impressive contest to fly in and to observe, pitting
> the best against the best at arguably the USAs Premier contest site. I
> see endless possibilities with this concept, not the least of which is
> public exposure and potential for our sports growth! *Call it the
> "Classic" or "Western Nationals" or "Mini Nationals" or whatever but
> hey if I can't fly in it I'll certainly be watching it you can count
> on that.
>
> Respectfully submitted for your consideration.
>
> Happy New Year,
>
> Rick Culbertson - 21

How about this(the organizers may choke!)
Have 2 contests one after the other.
Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
to come second.
Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
Region 9 Super Regional
FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
6 days Sunday to Friday
You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
about
getting in.
Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
organization
and grunt work.
The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
better utilized.
You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
you gotta spread
the work out.
UH

[ZL]

wrote:
>
> How about this(the organizers may choke!)
> Have 2 contests one after the other.
> Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
> to come second.
> Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
> 6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
> Region 9 Super Regional
> FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
> 6 days Sunday to Friday
> You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
> 2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
> about
> getting in.
> Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
> organization
> and grunt work.
> The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
> better utilized.
> You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
> Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
> you gotta spread
> the work out.
> UH

Clearly the best approach for the short term. But it does ruin a
perfectly good RAS winter rantathon.

[Tuno]

Rick-San,

I love this concept, but what are you going to call it? To work, it
has to have SSA sanctioning, and they have exactly two flavors that I
know of: Regional and National. Obviously, neither of those will work.

But it should be very easy for the SSA to add a third, whether they
call it "Super Regional" or "Pre-Nationals" or simply "Sanctioned,
Other", as long as it doesn't interfere with the regional system.

~ted/2NO

[JJ Sinclair]

I like it Uncle Hank, I like it a lot! Especially this year, where we
have the sports nats starting just 2 days after the Parowan regionals.
I'm just to frigin old to do both, but I'd do a Parowan 'sports only'
contest a week earlier, rest up and head for Montague. Charlie &
Micki, are you up for something like this? I'll help as much as I can.
JJ

> How about this(the organizers may choke!)
> Have 2 contests one after the other.
> Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
> to come second.
> Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
> 6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
> Region 9 Super Regional
> FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
> 6 days Sunday to Friday
> You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
> 2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
> about
> getting in.
> Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
> organization
> and grunt work.
> The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
> better utilized.
> You just can't wear out one or 2 *people doing this.
> Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
> you gotta spread
> the work out.
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[ZL]

I heard today a bunch of motor-glider guys have an event booked at
Parowan the week before the regional. Popular place.
-Dave
JJ Sinclair wrote:
> I like it Uncle Hank, I like it a lot! Especially this year, where we
> have the sports nats starting just 2 days after the Parowan regionals.
> I'm just to frigin old to do both, but I'd do a Parowan 'sports only'
> contest a week earlier, rest up and head for Montague. Charlie &
> Micki, are you up for something like this? I'll help as much as I can.
> JJ
>
>> How about this(the organizers may choke!)
>> Have 2 contests one after the other.
>> Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
>> to come second.
>> Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
>> 6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
>> Region 9 Super Regional
>> FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
>> 6 days Sunday to Friday
>> You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
>> 2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
>> about
>> getting in.
>> Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
>> organization
>> and grunt work.
>> The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
>> better utilized.
>> You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
>> Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
>> you gotta spread
>> the work out.
>> UH- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

[[email protected]]

Interesting idea.

I agree with Ted that sanctioning and seeding matter for many pilots,
but perhaps they would self-select to the appropriate event if you
could only sanction one. I know we have North and South events in many
regions. Is there a rule against having two sanctioned events at the
same location back to back? I guess if you did sports/motorglider the
week prior and FAI classes in the current slot you'd have a decent
shot at making it work.

My bet is you'd be at less than 50 at one or maybe both, but not by a
lot. We have so many classes these days it would be good to pump up
the number of competitors in the FAI classes by splitting out the
sports class. If you were undersubscribed at the sports event I'll
even bet you'd get some experienced guys willing to show up a day or
two early and coach/fly with the newer pilots towards the end of the
sports class event.

Of course, the other big BUT is getting contest personnel and
towplanes.

9B

[Rick Culbertson]

First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
states" ;-)

UH,

I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
short term".

I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
2002?

Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
it.

Respectfully,

21

[[email protected]]

On Jan 2, 4:27*pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
> First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
> must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
> states" ;-)
>
> UH,
>
> I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
> creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
> short term".
>
> I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
> FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
> kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
> sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
> negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
> a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
> effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
> this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
> 2002?
>
> Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
> sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
> contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
> to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
> 9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
> it.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> 21

The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
I see this as critical.
Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
retreive
crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
much. This is a good
way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
week 2.
As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
all the new
folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
is that
there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
diamond distance
one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
this again.
Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
tugs get spead out
over more tows which can really help finances.
Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
to come
a little early for contest #2.
In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
that you can provide
not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
best ways I can think
of to grow racing.
UH

[[email protected]]

On Jan 2, 3:07�pm, wrote:
> On Jan 2, 4:27�pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
> > must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
> > states" ;-)
>
> > UH,
>
> > I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
> > creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
> > short term".
>
> > I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
> > FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
> > kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
> > sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
> > negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
> > a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
> > effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
> > this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
> > 2002?
>
> > Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
> > sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
> > contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
> > to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
> > 9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
> > it.
>
> > Respectfully,
>
> > 21
>
> The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
> of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
> This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
> I see this as critical.
> Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
> retreive
> crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
> much. This is a good
> way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
> week 2.
> As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
> all the new
> folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
> is that
> there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
> diamond distance
> one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
> this again.
> Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
> tugs get spead out
> over more tows which can really help finances.
> Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
> to come
> a little early for contest #2.
> In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
> that you can provide
> not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
> pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
> sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
> best ways I can think
> of to grow racing.
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
had a National their, along with flyin's.
With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
needn't worry. Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
committee guys are from Region 9? It seems ok for you to push the
Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
and they were far from full.
Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
Kool.........711. Now, Rick, thats outta the box
thinking.............

[Rick Culbertson]

>
> * * *Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
> Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
> You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
> turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
> not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
> gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
> contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
> The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
> is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
> had a National their, along with flyin's.
> * * *With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
> closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
> are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
> for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
> Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
> Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
> Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
> this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
> sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
> why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
> * * * I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
> make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
> needn't worry. *Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
> committee guys are from Region 9? *It seems ok for you to push the
> Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
> drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
> own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
> had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
> and they were far from full.
> * * *Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
> contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
> soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
> great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
> with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
> and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
> for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
> the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
> * * * *Kool.........711. * * Now, Rick, thats outta the box
> thinking.............- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tommy, It's hard to argue with a straight up reality check!
21

[[email protected]]

On Jan 2, 8:03Â*pm, wrote:
> On Jan 2, 3:07�pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 2, 4:27�pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
>
> > > First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
> > > must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
> > > states" ;-)
>
> > > UH,
>
> > > I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
> > > creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
> > > short term".
>
> > > I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
> > > FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
> > > kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
> > > sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
> > > negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
> > > a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
> > > effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
> > > this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
> > > 2002?
>
> > > Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
> > > sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
> > > contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
> > > to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
> > > 9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
> > > it.
>
> > > Respectfully,
>
> > > 21
>
> > The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
> > of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
> > This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
> > I see this as critical.
> > Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
> > retreive
> > crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
> > much. This is a good
> > way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
> > week 2.
> > As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
> > all the new
> > folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
> > is that
> > there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
> > diamond distance
> > one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
> > this again.
> > Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
> > tugs get spead out
> > over more tows which can really help finances.
> > Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
> > to come
> > a little early for contest #2.
> > In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
> > that you can provide
> > not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
> > pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
> > sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
> > best ways I can think
> > of to grow racing.
> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Â* Â* Â*Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
> Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
> You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
> turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
> not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
> gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
> contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
> The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
> is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
> had a National their, along with flyin's.
> Â* Â* Â*With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
> closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
> are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
> for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
> Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
> Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
> Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
> this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
> sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
> why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
> Â* Â* Â* I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
> make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
> needn't worry. Â*Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
> committee guys are from Region 9? Â*It seems ok for you to push the
> Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
> drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
> own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
> had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
> and they were far from full.
> Â* Â* Â*Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
> contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
> soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
> great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
> with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
> and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
> for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
> the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
> Â* Â* Â* Â*Kool.........711. Â* Â* Now, Rick, thats outta the box
> thinking.............- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This concept was intended to give the organizers an option to
reallocate
the entry priority of a contest they are choosing to run. It does NOT
mean they
must, only they may if they choose.
It is true that one could get in to Parowan at the last minute like JJ
did, but that is
because he is in the retired class and could jump at the last minute.
Other qualified pilots
can't even consider this because they need to plan in advance.
Also understand that this is a proposed rule and will not be
adopted(assuming it is) until
the Winter board meeting. Then the option would become available to
organizers.
Presumably the organizers for this years Region 9 contests are
watching these exchanges
and will consider them when deciding how they want to set up their
contests.
As to using OLC for seeding, I personally don't see the point. It is
not hard to get into contests
now with limited exception of a couple, so the ranking system works.
How do we equate performances
by guys picking the best 10 days of the year on Wednesdays when we are
all at work to comparative performances by pilots all flying on the
same days?.
As far as representation on the RC, you, of course, know that none of
the current members is from
R9. That said, how many R9 people have been nominated by their
director to run? If you have some
concern about representation, somebody needs to step up to the plate.
In any case I believe the RC
does it's best to work in the interest of all pilots even if some
changes don't make everybody happy. They
don't all make me happy, but we work for what we think is best for
all. This is part of why the RC asks for
input.
Cheers
UH

[JJ Sinclair]

As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
JJ

[mattm]

On Jan 3, 9:46 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
> off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
> really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
> week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
> out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
> notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
> about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
> denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
> issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
> refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
> I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
> JJ

I don't really remember this happening last year at Perry. Instead,
there were several
last second drop-outs to go help look for Dale Kramer after he crashed
(perfectly
understandable).

One thing that I DID notice was that the required pilot rating to get
in from out of region
was equal to winning an FAI class in a regional!

Back to that off-topic mention: there are two regional contests
listed ONLY on
the calendar page at the SSA website so far (R5S colocated with the
Standard
nationals, and region 1 in June). The contest results list hasn't
been updated
even with those two. I know that others must have already been
planned (we
heard from Rhonda when R5N is on) but they haven't gotten on the
published
calendar so far. It seems to me that last year they didn't show up
until after
the 1st either.

One other important item missing from the calendar is that there are
no Racing
camps planned, as far as I can tell. I know that the Perry camp was
announced
at least by November of the previous year...

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 9:25�am, mattm > wrote:
> On Jan 3, 9:46 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
> > off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
> > really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
> > week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
> > out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
> > notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
> > about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
> > denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
> > issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
> > refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
> > I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
> > JJ
>
> I don't really remember this happening last year at Perry. �Instead,
> there were several
> last second drop-outs to go help look for Dale Kramer after he crashed
> (perfectly
> understandable).
>
> One thing that I DID notice was that the required pilot rating to get
> in from out of region
> was equal to winning an FAI class in a regional!
>
> Back to that off-topic mention: �there are two regional contests
> listed ONLY on
> the calendar page at the SSA website so far (R5S colocated with the
> Standard
> nationals, and region 1 in June). �The contest results list hasn't
> been updated
> even with those two. �I know that others must have already been
> planned (we
> heard from Rhonda when R5N is on) but they haven't gotten on the
> published
> calendar so far. �It seems to me that last year they didn't show up
> until after
> the 1st either.
>
> One other important item missing from the calendar is that there are
> no Racing
> camps planned, as far as I can tell. �I know that the Perry camp was
> announced
> at least by November of the previous year...

New ideas are required to improve the great old ideas, as time has
shown us. Business will die if new ideas aren't brought in. Our
Regionals are not filling up, our Nationals are not filling up. The
OLC is. Using the OLC towards a National seeding list could be the
best thing to hit this sport.
Last year, the competition between 2 clubs came about because
of the OLC. ALL of these guys and girls flew harder, farther and
faster and better than they had every before. They all improved their
skills, they learned and shared, bonded and fought, they inspired each
other and in the end, their really was no one winner, as the real only
winner was...... our sport.....
To foster and promote...........it is a good
thing......
The OLC flights a pilot posts, which could add to his seeding
score, could bring more pilots to Regional and National competitions.
Also, it would get more to practice, increase business at the
gliderports, and raise revenue, along with SSA membership. Your
worried about them occurring all over the country? We have had in the
past, as we have today, members of the US Team which have never won a
National title, and some who have only won in certain areas of the
country.
Has the OLC system, which part of ( I am not saying what or
how now) could be applied to our seeding system, been even discussed
amongest the flock? Or is the flock being controlled by just the few
who wish things only for themselves? Just a question.......its typed
as with a warm feeling, said as in caring, love and an understanding
manner..........

A super region allows for the high seeded pilots from out of
region to bump out a lower seeded pilot in region. It allows for the
same super regional contest to be held every year at the same site, by
the same organizer. I haven't implied this is bad, but, since this
will come up shortly, at the Directors meeting, many members and
racers won't even hear about it, we need to get it out to as many
folks as we can.
Isn't it... "fair and equal for all"..........Some are out
traveling, they don't have a computer, the magazine is their only way
of reading what s going on......Thank you JJ, Hank, 21, ZL, 9B,and
everyone else in keeping this post going, its best to get it out, for
all to see and think about. # 711.

[Tim Taylor]

On Jan 3, 1:36 pm, wrote:
> On Jan 3, 9:25�am, mattm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:46 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > > As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
> > > off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
> > > really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
> > > week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
> > > out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
> > > notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
> > > about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
> > > denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
> > > issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
> > > refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
> > > I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
> > > JJ
>
> > I don't really remember this happening last year at Perry. �Instead,
> > there were several
> > last second drop-outs to go help look for Dale Kramer after he crashed
> > (perfectly
> > understandable).
>
> > One thing that I DID notice was that the required pilot rating to get
> > in from out of region
> > was equal to winning an FAI class in a regional!
>
> > Back to that off-topic mention: �there are two regional contests
> > listed ONLY on
> > the calendar page at the SSA website so far (R5S colocated with the
> > Standard
> > nationals, and region 1 in June). �The contest results list hasn't
> > been updated
> > even with those two. �I know that others must have already been
> > planned (we
> > heard from Rhonda when R5N is on) but they haven't gotten on the
> > published
> > calendar so far. �It seems to me that last year they didn't show up
> > until after
> > the 1st either.
>
> > One other important item missing from the calendar is that there are
> > no Racing
> > camps planned, as far as I can tell. �I know that the Perry camp was
> > announced
> > at least by November of the previous year...
>
> New ideas are required to improve the great old ideas, as time has
> shown us. Business will die if new ideas aren't brought in. Our
> Regionals are not filling up, our Nationals are not filling up. The
> OLC is. Using the OLC towards a National seeding list could be the
> best thing to hit this sport.
> Last year, the competition between 2 clubs came about because
> of the OLC. ALL of these guys and girls flew harder, farther and
> faster and better than they had every before. They all improved their
> skills, they learned and shared, bonded and fought, they inspired each
> other and in the end, their really was no one winner, as the real only
> winner was...... our sport.....
> To foster and promote...........it is a good
> thing......
> The OLC flights a pilot posts, which could add to his seeding
> score, could bring more pilots to Regional and National competitions.
> Also, it would get more to practice, increase business at the
> gliderports, and raise revenue, along with SSA membership. Your
> worried about them occurring all over the country? We have had in the
> past, as we have today, members of the US Team which have never won a
> National title, and some who have only won in certain areas of the
> country.
> Has the OLC system, which part of ( I am not saying what or
> how now) could be applied to our seeding system, been even discussed
> amongest the flock? Or is the flock being controlled by just the few
> who wish things only for themselves? Just a question.......its typed
> as with a warm feeling, said as in caring, love and an understanding
> manner..........
>
> A super region allows for the high seeded pilots from out of
> region to bump out a lower seeded pilot in region. It allows for the
> same super regional contest to be held every year at the same site, by
> the same organizer. I haven't implied this is bad, but, since this
> will come up shortly, at the Directors meeting, many members and
> racers won't even hear about it, we need to get it out to as many
> folks as we can.
> Isn't it... "fair and equal for all"..........Some are out
> traveling, they don't have a computer, the magazine is their only way
> of reading what s going on......Thank you JJ, Hank, 21, ZL, 9B,and
> everyone else in keeping this post going, its best to get it out, for
> all to see and think about. # 711.

OK, after reviewing the data from 2007:

Contest Pilots State
Sports 42 OH
Std 19 NM
15M 41 PA
18M 28 MN
Open 9 MN
World 7 TN

We need to hold East and West Super Regionals. Points could be 96 for
the National Rankings. The application must include support letter
from three regions in the area. Should be sites that can accommodate
water in the FAI classes. We need to continue to combine nationals or
offer at least a combined Std/15M/18M for both the east and west.

In 2007 there were only about 3 or 4 West coast pilots at the 15M
nationals and only two East coast pilots at the 2006 15m contest.

Is it time to kill Std and 15 M class and combine them into one 15M
class? From the numbers World and Open are dying classes that should
either be discontinued or forced to hold contests with several other
classes each year.

The open class has been replaced by the 18M ships for the most part
and the cost justification for the standard class had long
disappeared. The 15/18 and Std/18 meter ships are looking like the
future. As the ASG-29 and Ventus 2C's arrive the 18m class will
continue to grow.

We do need to adapt the system to encourage pilots to fly in contest
more. I agree with Tom that we need a way to utilize the OLC as well
because it has been one of the best tools in the last few years to get
more pilots flying cross country and encourages pushing harder on a
day to get more points.

Tim

[Mike[_8_]]

Combining Std and 15 meter as well as Open and 18 meter, while having
Super E & W regionals makes a lot of sense IF Super regionals have to
be done.

It is probably too easy of a solution though.


On Jan 3, 2:12Â*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Jan 3, 1:36 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:25�am, mattm > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 9:46 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > > > As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
> > > > off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
> > > > really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
> > > > week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
> > > > out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
> > > > notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
> > > > about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
> > > > denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
> > > > issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
> > > > refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
> > > > I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
> > > > JJ
>
> > > I don't really remember this happening last year at Perry. �Instead,
> > > there were several
> > > last second drop-outs to go help look for Dale Kramer after he crashed
> > > (perfectly
> > > understandable).
>
> > > One thing that I DID notice was that the required pilot rating to get
> > > in from out of region
> > > was equal to winning an FAI class in a regional!
>
> > > Back to that off-topic mention: �there are two regional contests
> > > listed ONLY on
> > > the calendar page at the SSA website so far (R5S colocated with the
> > > Standard
> > > nationals, and region 1 in June). �The contest results list hasn't
> > > been updated
> > > even with those two. �I know that others must have already been
> > > planned (we
> > > heard from Rhonda when R5N is on) but they haven't gotten on the
> > > published
> > > calendar so far. �It seems to me that last year they didn't show up
> > > until after
> > > the 1st either.
>
> > > One other important item missing from the calendar is that there are
> > > no Racing
> > > camps planned, as far as I can tell. �I know that the Perry camp was
> > > announced
> > > at least by November of the previous year...
>
> > Â*New ideas are required to improve the great old ideas, as time has
> > shown us. Business will die if Â*new ideas aren't brought in. Our
> > Regionals are not filling up, our Nationals are not filling up. The
> > OLC is. Using the OLC towards a National seeding list could be the
> > best thing to hit this sport.
> > Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Last year, the competition between 2 clubs came about because
> > of the OLC. ALL of these guys and girls flew harder, farther and
> > faster and better than they had every before. They all improved their
> > skills, they learned and shared, bonded and fought, they inspired each
> > other and in the end, their really was no one winner, as the real only
> > winner was...... our sport.....
> > Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* To foster and promote...........it is a good
> > thing......
> > Â* Â* Â* Â*The OLC flights a pilot posts, which could add to his seeding
> > score, could bring more pilots to Regional and National competitions.
> > Also, it would get more to practice, increase business at the
> > gliderports, and raise revenue, along with SSA membership. Your
> > worried Â*about them occurring all over the country? We have had in the
> > past, as we have today, members of the US Team which have never won a
> > National title, and some who have only won in certain areas of the
> > country.
> > Â* Â* Â* Â* Has the OLC system, which part of ( I am not saying what or
> > how now) could be applied to our seeding system, been even discussed
> > amongest the flock? Â*Or is the flock being controlled by just the few
> > who wish things only for themselves? Just a question.......its typed
> > as with a warm feeling, said as in caring, love and an understanding
> > manner..........
>
> > Â* Â* Â* Â*A super region allows for the high seeded pilots from out of
> > region to bump out a lower seeded pilot in region. It allows for the
> > same super regional contest to be held every year at the same site, by
> > the same organizer. I haven't implied this is bad, but, since this
> > will come up shortly, Â*at the Directors meeting, many members and
> > racers won't even hear about it, Â*we need to get it out to as many
> > folks as we can.
> > Â* Â* Â* Â*Isn't it... "fair and equal for all"...........Some are out
> > traveling, they don't have a computer, the magazine is their only way
> > of reading what s going on......Thank you JJ, Hank, 21, ZL, 9B,and
> > everyone else in keeping this post going, its best to get it out, for
> > all to see and think about. Â* # 711.
>
> OK, after reviewing the data from 2007:
>
> Contest Pilots State
> Sports Â* Â*42 Â* Â*OH
> Std Â* Â* 19 Â* Â*NM
> 15M Â* Â*41 Â* Â*PA
> 18M Â* Â*28 Â* Â* MN
> Open Â* Â* 9 Â* Â* MN
> World Â* Â* 7 Â* Â*TN
>
> We need to hold East and West Super Regionals. Â*Points could be 96 for
> the National Rankings. Â*The application must include support letter
> from three regions in the area. Â*Should be sites that can accommodate
> water in the FAI classes. Â*We need to continue to combine nationals or
> offer at least a combined Std/15M/18M for both the east and west.
>
> In 2007 there were only about 3 or 4 Â*West coast pilots at the 15M
> nationals and only two East coast pilots at the 2006 15m contest.
>
> Is it time to kill Std and 15 M class and combine them into one 15M
> class? Â*From the numbers World and Open are dying classes that should
> either be discontinued or forced to hold contests with several other
> classes each year.
>
> The open class has been replaced by the 18M ships for the most part
> and the cost justification for the standard class had long
> disappeared. Â*The 15/18 and Std/18 meter ships are looking like the
> future. Â*As the ASG-29 and Ventus 2C's arrive the 18m class will
> continue to grow.
>
> We do need to adapt the system to encourage pilots to fly in contest
> more. Â*I agree with Tom that we need a way to utilize the OLC as well
> because it has been one of the best tools in the last few years to get
> more pilots flying cross country and encourages pushing harder on a
> day to get more points.
>
> Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 1:35*pm, Mike > wrote:
> Combining Std and 15 meter as well as Open and 18 meter, while having
> Super E & W regionals makes a lot of sense IF Super regionals have to
> be done.
>
> It is probably too easy of a solution though.

I'm thinking the more you promote super-regionals the more you will
turn Nationals into super-regionals as well. East coast pilots will go
to the east coast super-regional when the nationals are in the west
and vice-versa. Maybe this is okay because for the most part only
pilots who are really gunning for a spot on the world team will make
the cross-country trek most years.

I continue to think that the proliferation of classes has not helped
matters, so a way to consolidate contests back down is appealing - I
like having more competitors to go up against.

9B

[Brian[_1_]]

<snip>
>
> We do need to adapt the system to encourage pilots to fly in contest
> more. *I agree with Tom that we need a way to utilize the OLC as well
> because it has been one of the best tools in the last few years to get
> more pilots flying cross country and encourages pushing harder on a
> day to get more points.
>
> Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So perhaps add bonus points to the OLC for flights flown in sanctioned
contests.
This would encourage flying at contests by those that are currently
flying only in the OLC.

Brian

[BB]

> I'm thinking the more you promote super-regionals the more you will
> turn Nationals into super-regionals as well. East coast pilots will go
> to the east coast super-regional when the nationals are in the west
> and vice-versa. Maybe this is okay because for the most part only
> pilots who are really gunning for a spot on the world team will make
> the cross-country trek most years.

Already happening. I counted less than 3 pilots crossed the
mississippi for 15 meter nationals in the last two years. Why bother
when you can fly sports or 18, or a few good regionals, and standard
pilots can fly sports/15/18?

In general, this is good. Pilots seem happy with the racing
opportunities near home and don't need to waste a week driving for 10
days of flying. The biggest negative effect I can see is that teams
are selected from a very small group willing to spend a week driving
across the country. And of course it's not quite as fun to fly in the
"wrong" class.

What to do? East and west nationals, mixing classes with handicaps?
(Other countries handicap their nationals to have larger contests.)
Pick team slots from performance in other classes, not just "your"
class? (Get a good seeding list, then just go down the list and ask
what class they want to fly?) More fun ideas?

But if the innocuous super-regionals caused such a ruckus, just
imagine the explosion if we try to change the structure of nationals
-- where seeding points and team status is at stake!

John Cochrane

[Mike[_8_]]

Delete the regionals as they are now, and provide 6 Super Regional
Championships per year:

NE and SE
North Central and South Central
NW and SW

Pilots can only fly in their own region.

The top 10 pilots in each class (the rest are alternates), in each
Super Regional goes to the Nationals in August.

Each year is a new year and there are no seeding lists carried over
from the previous year for the Nationals.

However entry into the Super Regionals are seeded from the previous
year's scores for 80% of the entries. The remaining 20% of slots are
reserved for new pilots and their entry is weighted by previous years
OLC scores.






On Jan 3, 8:16*pm, BB > wrote:
> > I'm thinking the more you promote super-regionals the more you will
> > turn Nationals into super-regionals as well. East coast pilots will go
> > to the east coast super-regional when the nationals are in the west
> > and vice-versa. Maybe this is okay because for the most part only
> > pilots who are really gunning for a spot on the world team will make
> > the cross-country trek most years.
>
> Already happening. I counted less than 3 pilots crossed the
> mississippi for 15 meter nationals in the last two years. Why bother
> when you can fly sports or 18, or a few good regionals, and standard
> pilots can fly sports/15/18?
>
> In general, this is good. Pilots seem happy with the racing
> opportunities near home and don't need to waste a week driving for 10
> days of flying. The biggest negative effect I can see is that teams
> are selected from a very small group willing to spend a week driving
> across the country. And of course it's not quite as fun to fly in the
> "wrong" class.
>
> What to do? East and west nationals, mixing classes with handicaps?
> (Other countries handicap their nationals to have larger contests.)
> Pick team slots from performance in other classes, not just "your"
> class? (Get a good seeding list, then just go down the list and ask
> what class they want to fly?) More fun ideas?
>
> But if the innocuous super-regionals caused such a ruckus, just
> imagine the explosion if we try to change the structure of nationals
> -- where seeding points and team status is at stake!
>
> John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 10:51*pm, Mike > wrote:
> Delete the regionals as they are now, and provide 6 Super Regional
> Championships per year:
>
> NE and SE
> North Central and South Central
> NW and SW
>
> Pilots can only fly in their own region.
>
> The top 10 pilots in each class (the rest are alternates), in each
> Super Regional goes to the Nationals in August.
>
> Each year is a new year and there are no seeding lists carried over
> from the previous year for the Nationals.
>
> However entry into the Super Regionals are seeded from the previous
> year's scores for 80% of the entries. The remaining 20% of slots are
> reserved for new pilots and their entry is weighted by previous years
> OLC scores.
>
> On Jan 3, 8:16*pm, BB > wrote:
>

The Nationals in August might be tough to schedule. I for one like
having the seeding last a few years since I don't fly all that many
contests (1 per year).

I still think the Super-Regional rules should apply to all regionals,
just drop the "super". In the end we are trying to allocate the bottom
X% of spots in an over-subscribed non-national contest. Allowing some
flexibility to the organizers seems fine to me.

The other question, of course, is how much do "super-regionals" sap
competitors from regular regionals in nearby states. Is that a good or
bad thing?

9B