FOI...lol... CFI oral?

[gatt[_2_]]

Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."

The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than a
tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which guarantees
I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the toughest part of
the CFI rating?

-c

[kontiki]

gatt wrote:
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than a
> tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which guarantees
> I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the toughest part of
> the CFI rating?
>
In a word, yes. Expect to explain... actually teach... all areas of
aeronautical knowledge. Don't forget to be intimately familiar with
FARs with regard to endorsements student pilots.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

gatt wrote:
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than a
> tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which guarantees
> I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the toughest part of
> the CFI rating?
>
> -c
>
>
Depends on the examiner. If it isn't, it should be. It's the oral that
should be revealing the actual extent of what the applicant knows as
well as the applicant's ability to teach what he/she knows.
The best approach to the oral is to of course know the material, but
arrive prepared to be able to explain complicated matters in everyday
terms. If there's one thing a GOOD examiner looks for in a CFI
applicant, its the ability to do this.
Many CFI applicants make a mistake when they are asked a simple
question, then proceed to go into the most highly technical answers they
can dream up to deal with it.
It's good to know the technical side, and indeed you should know that
side, but the GOOD CFI can take that highly complicated and technical
answer and project it on any level necessary to meet an individual
student's ability to comprehend it.
THIS is what the oral is all about!! It's not what you know so much as
how well you can TEACH what you know :-))
Go for it!!
Best of luck

--
Dudley Henriques

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> The best approach to the oral is to of course know the material, but
> arrive prepared to be able to explain complicated matters in everyday
> terms. If there's one thing a GOOD examiner looks for in a CFI
> applicant, its the ability to do this.

This is true for just about any teacher.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

B A R R Y wrote:
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>
>> The best approach to the oral is to of course know the material, but
>> arrive prepared to be able to explain complicated matters in everyday
>> terms. If there's one thing a GOOD examiner looks for in a CFI
>> applicant, its the ability to do this.
>
> This is true for just about any teacher.

True enough. I found the more I taught people to fly, the better I got
at teaching people to fly. In the end, the student teaches you as much
about teaching as you teach them about flying.
Being a good CFI is indeed a two way street. :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

[Dallas]

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:29:24 -0800, gatt wrote:

> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?

My CFI said his examiner made him teach an 8 hour class.

--
Dallas

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Dallas wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:29:24 -0800, gatt wrote:
>
>> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?
>
> My CFI said his examiner made him teach an 8 hour class.
>

The best one I ever heard was an examiner who brought in his 12 year old
kid; introduced the kid to a CFI applicant, told them to go into the
other room and shut the door. The applicant was to explain lift to the
kid and then both of them return to the office at which time the kid
would explain lift to the examiner.
I LOVED this approach!!!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 3, 10:29*am, "gatt" > wrote:
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. *I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than a
> tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which guarantees
> I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. *Is the oral the toughest part of
> the CFI rating?

An average amount of time for the oral is about 8 hours. Some
examiners schedule the oral on a different day than the flying. Expect
a lot of questions about FOI. This is one of the reasons some choose
to do the instrument instructor before the ASE instructor (to break up
a hard checkride).

-Robert, CFII

[Blanche]

Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>B A R R Y wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>>
>>> The best approach to the oral is to of course know the material, but
>>> arrive prepared to be able to explain complicated matters in everyday
>>> terms. If there's one thing a GOOD examiner looks for in a CFI
>>> applicant, its the ability to do this.
>>
>> This is true for just about any teacher.
>
>True enough. I found the more I taught people to fly, the better I got
>at teaching people to fly. In the end, the student teaches you as much
>about teaching as you teach them about flying.
>Being a good CFI is indeed a two way street. :-)
>
>--
>Dudley Henriques

That's true of any topic. When I was teaching college level, I always
expected to learn more than my students. If I didn't learn something
new, either during prep or during class, then it was time for me to
stop teaching that class and find another.

[NW_Pilot]

Gatt, what did you use for prep of your FOI/CFI


"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than
> a tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which
> guarantees I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the
> toughest part of the CFI rating?
>
> -c
>

[Vaughn Simon]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?

Let's say that you should spend most of your time preparing for that part.
Preparation for written doesn't caount, because that is just part of the prep
for your oral. The ride itself should be simple for you. After all, by the
time you get to that level you should know how to fly.

Don't forget to bring your mini-library. Your examiner will not expect you to
be able to recite the answer to every single question he (or she) might ask, but
damn well will expect you to be able to dig the correct information out of your
reference materials and then explain them clearly. Just like for most any oral,
you should have your FAR/AIM tabbed and highlighted and know where to go in it
to find the answer to any likely question. Also have a notebook with the
appropriate FAA ACs. Be organized.

Vaughn

[gatt[_2_]]

I used the FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook and the Gleim Certified Flight
Instructor test prep. The first chapter of the latter is the FOI test.

By recommendation here I bought a used copy of Kershner's Flight
Instructor's Manual, which is great, but not best for the written exams so I
read threw a few chapters and put it aside for the time being. That's it
so far, although these guys have me a little nervous about the oral exam
now. :>

-c


"NW_Pilot" > wrote in message news:

> Gatt, what did you use for prep of your FOI/CFI
>
>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
>> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
>> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100%
>> and he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>>
>> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than
>> a tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which
>> guarantees I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the
>> toughest part of the CFI rating?
\

[Vaughn Simon]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...

>these guys have me a little nervous about the oral exam now.

Don't be nervous, be prepared. I don't have figures, but most pass on the
first try.

If possible, team up with another CFI candidate and role play. Answering
oral questions is a skill worth practicing, also a bit of friendly competition
makes study both enjoyable and efficient.

Vaughn

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Dallas wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:29:24 -0800, gatt wrote:
>>
>>> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?
>>
>> My CFI said his examiner made him teach an 8 hour class.
>>
>
> The best one I ever heard was an examiner who brought in his 12 year old
> kid; introduced the kid to a CFI applicant, told them to go into the
> other room and shut the door. The applicant was to explain lift to the
> kid and then both of them return to the office at which time the kid
> would explain lift to the examiner.
> I LOVED this approach!!!! :-))
>

That is a very good idea.

The mark of a good instructor is that he can teach anything he knows to
anyone.

When I find someone who can explain anything to Anthony, I will campaign to
make him king of all peoples everywhere.


Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> :
>
>> Dallas wrote:
>>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:29:24 -0800, gatt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?
>>> My CFI said his examiner made him teach an 8 hour class.
>>>
>> The best one I ever heard was an examiner who brought in his 12 year old
>> kid; introduced the kid to a CFI applicant, told them to go into the
>> other room and shut the door. The applicant was to explain lift to the
>> kid and then both of them return to the office at which time the kid
>> would explain lift to the examiner.
>> I LOVED this approach!!!! :-))
>>
>
> That is a very good idea.
>
> The mark of a good instructor is that he can teach anything he knows to
> anyone.
>
> When I find someone who can explain anything to Anthony, I will campaign to
> make him king of all peoples everywhere.
>
>
> Bertie

Indeed, and with his own flag, and serfs to carry it :-))))

--
Dudley Henriques

[gatt[_2_]]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
news:P4gfj.104176
> "gatt" > wrote in message

>>these guys have me a little nervous about the oral exam now.
>
> Don't be nervous, be prepared. I don't have figures, but most pass on the
> first try.
>
> If possible, team up with another CFI candidate and role play.
> Answering oral questions is a skill worth practicing, also a bit of
> friendly competition makes study both enjoyable and efficient.

Thanks for the advice. After reading through the Jeppeson
Instrument/Commercial text a little last night, I'm actually starting to
look forward to the challenge.

-c

[Barry]

> An average amount of time for the oral is about 8 hours.

I don't know where you instruct and how large a sample you based this on, but
it's certainly not true for the CFIs I know and have trained. One who had to
go recently with a difficult inspector from the local FSDO had an oral that
lasted about four hours, but most of the others I'm familiar with around two
hours.

> Expect a lot of questions about FOI. This is one of the reasons some
> choose to do the instrument instructor before the ASE instructor (to break
> up a hard checkride).

But won't FOI still be covered if the instrument is the initial CFI checkride?

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-01-03 10:29:24 -0800, "gatt" > said:

>
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than a
> tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which guarantees
> I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the toughest part of
> the CFI rating?
>
> -c

Oh, yeah. The oral is the heart of the CFI rating and it takes a long
time. The examiner wants to see "instructor level" of knowledge in just
about every area, and he is going to cover every area to be sure that
you are there. Of course, that does not preclude the occasional
mistake, but you should in general appear to be absolutely on top of
things.

You will be asked to teach. Some examiners have you prepare a lesson in
advance; others ask you to do it on the spot. That lesson better
demonstrate a well thought-out written lesson plan. There will probably
be a few loops thrown at you, too.

Examiners are especially interested in your knowledge of endorsements
and ratings, privileges of a flight instructor, and requirements for
all of the different ratings. You can guarantee that they will hit
heavily on the requirements for a student solo endorsement and when and
what kind of medical certificate you need. They will cover everything
from LAHSO for solo students to the emotional state of your students.
If you have written a book of lesson plans over the course of your
instruction as a CFI, bring it. You should, of course, be extremely
sharp on everything from flight planning to aircraft systems and charts
and weather, etc. My favorite question the examiner asked me on systems
was "How many wires run from the battery to the magnetos?" It is a
trick question, of course, but for some reason it struck me as
uproariously funny. Oh, well. I guess you had to be there. I was
running a temperature of 104 and completely unfit to fly, so I had to
fly the next day.

The flight will again demand instructional level of ability in every
maneuver, the ability to teach each maneuver effectively, the ability
to spot common student errors, emergency procedures, etc. However, most
guys have a fair amount of flying time by the time they become
instructors, so the flying part feels a lot easier than the oral,
although it really isn't. You just have more experience flying than
instructing, which makes all the difference in the world.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-01-03 16:00:17 -0800, "Vaughn Simon"
> said:

>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Is the oral the toughest part of the CFI rating?
>
> Let's say that you should spend most of your time preparing for that part.
> Preparation for written doesn't caount, because that is just part of the prep
> for your oral. The ride itself should be simple for you. After all, by the
> time you get to that level you should know how to fly.
>
> Don't forget to bring your mini-library. Your examiner will not
> expect you to
> be able to recite the answer to every single question he (or she) might
> ask, but
> damn well will expect you to be able to dig the correct information out of your
> reference materials and then explain them clearly. Just like for most
> any oral,
> you should have your FAR/AIM tabbed and highlighted and know where to go in it
> to find the answer to any likely question. Also have a notebook with the
> appropriate FAA ACs. Be organized.
>
> Vaughn

And if you really want to give a bad impression, bring new, clean books
in your mini-library.

Everything ought to look dog-eared and torn from your intense studies.
The one exception I could possibly think of would be if you just
replaced your FAR/AIM, but then I would bring the old one, too -- and
it had better be falling apart.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Barry wrote:
>> An average amount of time for the oral is about 8 hours.
>
> I don't know where you instruct and how large a sample you based this on, but
> it's certainly not true for the CFIs I know and have trained. One who had to
> go recently with a difficult inspector from the local FSDO had an oral that
> lasted about four hours, but most of the others I'm familiar with around two
> hours.
>
>> Expect a lot of questions about FOI. This is one of the reasons some
>> choose to do the instrument instructor before the ASE instructor (to break
>> up a hard checkride).
>
> But won't FOI still be covered if the instrument is the initial CFI checkride?
>
>
I recall my own oral at about two hours, but back in the stone age :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

[Dallas]

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:51:31 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:

> Everything ought to look dog-eared and torn from your intense studies.

LOL!

Buy about 6 different colors of 3M Post-it tab stick on page markers and
attach about 60 of them to each book. Not only does it add a bit of
festive color to the exam room, it also gives the impression of intense
study.

:- )


--
Dallas

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 4, 11:56*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Barry wrote:
> >> An average amount of time for the oral is about 8 hours.
>
> > I don't know where you instruct and how large a sample you based this on, but
> > it's certainly not true for the CFIs I know and have trained. *One who had to
> > go recently with a difficult inspector from the local FSDO had an oral that
> > lasted about four hours, but most of the others I'm familiar with around two
> > hours.
>
> >> Expect a lot of questions about FOI. This is one of the reasons some
> >> choose to do the instrument instructor before the ASE instructor (to break
> >> up a hard checkride).
>
> > But won't FOI still be covered if the instrument is the initial CFI checkride?
>
> I recall my own oral at about two hours, but back in the stone age :-)

I'm sure most checkrides were easier before the Wright Bros.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Jan 4, 11:56 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> Barry wrote:
>>>> An average amount of time for the oral is about 8 hours.
>>> I don't know where you instruct and how large a sample you based this on, but
>>> it's certainly not true for the CFIs I know and have trained. One who had to
>>> go recently with a difficult inspector from the local FSDO had an oral that
>>> lasted about four hours, but most of the others I'm familiar with around two
>>> hours.
>>>> Expect a lot of questions about FOI. This is one of the reasons some
>>>> choose to do the instrument instructor before the ASE instructor (to break
>>>> up a hard checkride).
>>> But won't FOI still be covered if the instrument is the initial CFI checkride?
>> I recall my own oral at about two hours, but back in the stone age :-)
>
> I'm sure most checkrides were easier before the Wright Bros.
>
> -Robert

Ouch! ......and I took the practical flight test in my trusty
Pterodactyl 200 :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

[kontiki]

gatt wrote:
>
> Thanks for the advice. After reading through the Jeppeson
> Instrument/Commercial text a little last night, I'm actually starting to
> look forward to the challenge.
>

That's the attitude you need to have.

[Michael[_1_]]

On Jan 3, 8:36*pm, "Vaughn Simon"
> *Don't be nervous, be prepared. *I don't have figures, but most pass on the
> first try.

Are you sure about that? I don't have the figures either, but I do
know this - recently, one of the rare local DE's who can do CFI
initial rides was in trouble because someone accused him of giving
preferential treatment to the graduates of his own school. That
preferential treatment was a 25% pass rate on the first try. I also
know very few people who got the initial CFI on the first try if you
exclude those who went to one of the schools that had examining
authority.

Michael

[Barry]

> Are you sure about that? I don't have the figures either, but I do
> know this - recently, one of the rare local DE's who can do CFI
> initial rides was in trouble because someone accused him of giving
> preferential treatment to the graduates of his own school. That
> preferential treatment was a 25% pass rate on the first try. I also
> know very few people who got the initial CFI on the first try if you
> exclude those who went to one of the schools that had examining
> authority.

It seems to depend a lot on the FSDO and the individual inspector. I've
trained four CFIs and all passed on the first try. Two went with a FSDO
inspector who is known to be a good guy, and two with an examiner chosen by
the FSDO. But recently another pilot (not trained by me) in our club went for
his CFI checkride and was assigned to an inspector who has a bad reputation.
It took almost all day and he failed on steep turns, of all things. He passed
the recheck a week later. Some inspectors are apparently determined to pass
almost nobody on the first try.

[Steven Barnes]

I think my oral was about 4 hours. Quite a bit of time on all the student
endorsements & when they come into play. I got a couple wrong, but did well
enough everywhere else. I tried to display an attitude that I certainly
didn't know everything & expected to learn during the checkride.

I agree with responses to keep answers simple unless the examiner asks for
more detail. One, you avoid the classic talking yourself into a hole. Two,
it's a real-world scenario. I've only been a CFI for a year. I've found
myself throttling back the knowledge fountain when I saw the student didn't
really need ALL that info right THEN.

Lucky for me, I'd had the same examiner for my earlier Commercial checkride.
So, he knew my abilities (or lack thereof). He also gets a lot of IFR
candidates from MY CFI, so he expected me to know my stuff if Mark had
signed me off.

If you can, try to arrange where you can "teach" a few ground classes to
real students while the CFI supervises.

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, I scored 96% on the Fundamentals of Instruction exam and it took me
> about ten minutes, so I kinda wish I'd not have stressed on all the
> psychobabble so much. I told the CATS proctor I was shooting for 100% and
> he joked "Well, it's a solid fifteen-minute exam."
>
> The Flight Instructor written looks like a thorough refresher rather than
a
> tough exam, then he told me what to expect on the oral exam which
guarantees
> I'll have my nose in the books for awhile. Is the oral the toughest part
of
> the CFI rating?
>
> -c
>
>

[Barry]

> If you can, try to arrange where you can "teach" a few ground classes to
> real students while the CFI supervises.

I've also found it very helpful to have the CFI candidate teach a real student
in the airplane while I sit in back and observe (obviously this is after the
candidate has flown a lot in the right seat "teaching" me). The "student" can
be a real student pilot, a non-pilot doing first lessons, or a private pilot
upgrading to the complex airplane or working on commercial maneuvers.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Steven Barnes" > wrote in message
...
<...>
>
> If you can, try to arrange where you can "teach" a few ground classes to
> real students while the CFI supervises.
>

Just teach the brother-in-law to fly. If you can teach that goof ball, you
can teach anyone (except, of course, MX).

You don't really need a CFI to surpervise...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Judah]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> The mark of a good instructor is that he can teach anything he knows to
>> anyone.
>>
>> When I find someone who can explain anything to Anthony, I will
>> campaign to make him king of all peoples everywhere.
>>
> Indeed, and with his own flag, and serfs to carry it :-))))

Geez! If I knew there was a reward, I would have never given up so easily!!