Dizziness disorientation

[New Pilot]

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.

I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
window in VFR starts to rotate.
I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
ball in the centre.

Is this normal or should I not be flying?

thanks

[[email protected]]

On Jan 16, 7:25 am, New Pilot > wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>
> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
> window in VFR starts to rotate.
> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
> ball in the centre.
>
> Is this normal or should I not be flying?

Do you have allergies or congestion? You may have inner ear problems
that were not detected during your physical.

Your grasp of fundamentals needs some review. There should be no
"Crosswind" once aloft. The airplane moves with the air mass and it's
highly unlikely the "wind hitting the tail fin" is different from the
wind hitting everything else. The "tail fin" is the vertical
stabilizer and attached is (usually) a rudder that counteracts adverse
yaw (unless you are blessed to fly a V tail, in which case elevator
and rudder are combined to form ruddervators).

While there is wind shear (in which the airplane acts as if it is
being struck by wind from behind or in front) this does not typically
act in such a localized manner. I suspect the yaw is the result of
uncoordinated flight -- banking or correcting wing drops in bumps
while not also applying the correct yaw counteracting rudder input.

You should get checked out for inner ear issues -- and before your
next flight.

Dan
http://trainingforcfi.blogspot.com/

[kontiki]

New Pilot wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>
> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
> window in VFR starts to rotate.
> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
> ball in the centre.
>
> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>
> thanks

No, it is not normal. You should not encounter any dizyness
and certainly not any disorientation while flying. If you
are encountering this in daytime VFR imagine what might happen
at night, MVFR or other less than ideal conditions. Go see
a doctor about it it may be something simple (ear infection?)
or could be more serious.

[[email protected]]

>
> No, it is not normal. You should not encounter any dizyness
> and certainly not any disorientation while flying.

Not exactly true -- "disorientation" is simply a person's body telling
them one thing and the airplane actually doing another. This can and
does happen to pilots all the time -- training and experience tells
them to ignore the bad data.

"Dizzyness" (I'm spinning) is more likely another symptom of
disorientation.

Dan

[kontiki]

wrote:
>> No, it is not normal. You should not encounter any dizyness
>> and certainly not any disorientation while flying.
>
> Not exactly true -- "disorientation" is simply a person's body telling
> them one thing and the airplane actually doing another. This can and
> does happen to pilots all the time -- training and experience tells
> them to ignore the bad data.
>
I have never experienced disorientation while flying in VFR
conditions... ever. That's what I assumed he was talking about.

Once or twice I have experienced counter-intuitive sensations
while in solid IMC (as perhaps many pilots do) but it did not
cause me to become disoriented (where am I? am I upside down?)
Perhaps I need to lookup the definition of "disorientation"...
which sounds like a dangerous thing to be when PIC.

> "Dizzyness" (I'm spinning) is more likely another symptom of
> disorientation.
>
> Dan

I've never experienced dizzyness... that sounds scarey if
you are trying to fly an aircraft.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

" > wrote in news:123372b6-fd35-
:

> On Jan 16, 7:25 am, New Pilot > wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>>
>> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
>> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
>> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
>> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
>> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
>> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
>> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
>> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
>> window in VFR starts to rotate.
>> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep
the
>> ball in the centre.
>>
>> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>
> Do you have allergies or congestion? You may have inner ear problems
> that were not detected during your physical.
>
> Your grasp of fundamentals needs some review. There should be no
> "Crosswind" once aloft. The airplane moves with the air mass and it's
> highly unlikely the "wind hitting the tail fin" is different from the
> wind hitting everything else. The "tail fin" is the vertical
> stabilizer and attached is (usually) a rudder that counteracts adverse
> yaw (unless you are blessed to fly a V tail, in which case elevator
> and rudder are combined to form ruddervators).
>
> While there is wind shear (in which the airplane acts as if it is
> being struck by wind from behind or in front) this does not typically
> act in such a localized manner. I suspect the yaw is the result of
> uncoordinated flight -- banking or correcting wing drops in bumps
> while not also applying the correct yaw counteracting rudder input.
>

I wonder if Ken taught him to fly.


Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Jan 16, 9:50 am, kontiki > wrote:

> I have never experienced disorientation while flying in VFR
> conditions... ever. That's what I assumed he was talking about.

Try this next time you're in solid VFR (with a safety pilot or CFI) --
cover the gauges, close your eyes, bend all the way forward (as though
trying to find a pen on the floor) and then quickly look up as the
safety pilot turns or does another maneuver.

Your body's sensory information will be misleading, and only reliance
on a compensating sensor (in VFR conditions, it will be sight) can
overcome the strong desire to "get back upright."

That's disorientation.

> Once or twice I have experienced counter-intuitive sensations
> while in solid IMC (as perhaps many pilots do) but it did not
> cause me to become disoriented (where am I? am I upside down?)
> Perhaps I need to lookup the definition of "disorientation"...
> which sounds like a dangerous thing to be when PIC.
>

I've had the contrary-to-instrument body sensor indications experience
once or twice each IMC flight. Only training and experience coupled
with discipline can counteract the body's disinformation campaign.

Dan

[kontiki]

wrote:
> On Jan 16, 9:50 am, kontiki > wrote:
>
>> I have never experienced disorientation while flying in VFR
>> conditions... ever. That's what I assumed he was talking about.
>
> Try this next time you're in solid VFR (with a safety pilot or CFI) --
> cover the gauges, close your eyes, bend all the way forward (as though
> trying to find a pen on the floor) and then quickly look up as the
> safety pilot turns or does another maneuver.
>
> Your body's sensory information will be misleading, and only reliance
> on a compensating sensor (in VFR conditions, it will be sight) can
> overcome the strong desire to "get back upright."
>
Hell, I can do that crawling under a desk trying to pick
up a pen I dropped... and then bump my head on it on the
way back up. heheh

> That's disorientation.
>
Oh. Thanks. Sounds like a good trick to use on a student
when you are teaching unusual attitude recovery.

[kontiki]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> " > wrote in news:123372b6-fd35-
> :
>
>> On Jan 16, 7:25 am, New Pilot > wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>>>
>>> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
>>> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
>>> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
>>> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
>>> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
>>> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
>>> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
>>> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
>>> window in VFR starts to rotate.
>>> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep
> the
>>> ball in the centre.
>>>
>>> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>> Do you have allergies or congestion? You may have inner ear problems
>> that were not detected during your physical.
>>
>> Your grasp of fundamentals needs some review. There should be no
>> "Crosswind" once aloft. The airplane moves with the air mass and it's
>> highly unlikely the "wind hitting the tail fin" is different from the
>> wind hitting everything else. The "tail fin" is the vertical
>> stabilizer and attached is (usually) a rudder that counteracts adverse
>> yaw (unless you are blessed to fly a V tail, in which case elevator
>> and rudder are combined to form ruddervators).
>>
>> While there is wind shear (in which the airplane acts as if it is
>> being struck by wind from behind or in front) this does not typically
>> act in such a localized manner. I suspect the yaw is the result of
>> uncoordinated flight -- banking or correcting wing drops in bumps
>> while not also applying the correct yaw counteracting rudder input.
>>
>
> I wonder if Ken taught him to fly.
>
>
> Bertie

I wonder if Mxsmanic has ever experienced vertigo while flying his Sim?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

kontiki > wrote in news:4qpjj.2266$7d1.1104
@news01.roc.ny:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> " > wrote in news:123372b6-fd35-
>> :
>>
>>> On Jan 16, 7:25 am, New Pilot > wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>>>>
>>>> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
>>>> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
>>>> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
>>>> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as
an
>>>> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly
but
>>>> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
>>>> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
>>>> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from
the
>>>> window in VFR starts to rotate.
>>>> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep
>> the
>>>> ball in the centre.
>>>>
>>>> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>>> Do you have allergies or congestion? You may have inner ear problems
>>> that were not detected during your physical.
>>>
>>> Your grasp of fundamentals needs some review. There should be no
>>> "Crosswind" once aloft. The airplane moves with the air mass and
it's
>>> highly unlikely the "wind hitting the tail fin" is different from
the
>>> wind hitting everything else. The "tail fin" is the vertical
>>> stabilizer and attached is (usually) a rudder that counteracts
adverse
>>> yaw (unless you are blessed to fly a V tail, in which case elevator
>>> and rudder are combined to form ruddervators).
>>>
>>> While there is wind shear (in which the airplane acts as if it is
>>> being struck by wind from behind or in front) this does not
typically
>>> act in such a localized manner. I suspect the yaw is the result of
>>> uncoordinated flight -- banking or correcting wing drops in bumps
>>> while not also applying the correct yaw counteracting rudder input.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if Ken taught him to fly.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I wonder if Mxsmanic has ever experienced vertigo while flying his
Sim?
>

Maybe he uses rubber vomit!


Bertie
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 16, 4:25*am, New Pilot > wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>
> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
> understand *but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
> window in VFR starts to rotate.
> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
> ball in the centre.
>
> Is this normal or should I not be flying?

I don't understand what you mean by "I encounter a crosswind the
aircraft slowly but
surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin". I've never
experienced this in my years of flying. I've encountered turb that has
causing yawing that is irritating but never have I seen a cross wind
induce yaw in flight. It sounds as if your aircraft is tethered to the
ground.

-Robert

[kontiki]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> I don't understand what you mean by "I encounter a crosswind the
> aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin". I've never
> experienced this in my years of flying. I've encountered turb that has
> causing yawing that is irritating but never have I seen a cross wind
> induce yaw in flight. It sounds as if your aircraft is tethered to the
> ground.
>
> -Robert

I think its clear from his post that he is receiving confusing sensory
input (disorientation?) while flying VFR and his lack of flight
experience is causing him to describe it as a "crosswind".

Whatever... this is not normal and he should have it checked out.

[Ross]

Bill Watson wrote:
> If you continue to feel your experience is best described as "dizzy" or
> "disoriented" in this particular situation and it re-occurs, you really
> should see an Eye, Ear, and Nose specialist.
>
> I am a long time pilot that was recently treated for a benign vertigo
> condition. It was quite benign, temporary, and fully treatable. In
> the process I was exposed to the full range of related conditions. There
> are many and the causes are varied. Some are threatening way beyond
> piloting. A specialist can really help here.
>
> New Pilot wrote:

Bill, the treatment allowed you to fly also? Or, was the condition
temporary and went away?

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

New Pilot wrote:
>
>Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>

The behavior of your aircraft is not normal. In flight, a wind coming from
either side of your line of flight should not make the plane yaw. If you are
noticing a yaw tendency developing in cruise flight, it is probably pilot
induced. Check your feet. Also, find an instructor and have a conversation
about how the airplane behaves in a moving air mass.

That said, flying uncoordinated is a common trigger for motion sickness in
many people. The first signs are often a feeling of disorientation.

One last thing. Check that the ball in the aircraft is centered when
you're on the ground. A friend of mine had a Cessna with a ball that had
slipped slightly in its mounts. He didn't notice it on the ground. In
flight, in order to center the ball, he was actually flying around in a
slight slip wherever he went.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200801/1

[Dallas]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:25:06 +0000, New Pilot wrote:

> I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin.

Me smells a troll.

--
Dallas

[Ross]

Bill Watson wrote:
> Ross wrote:
>
>> Bill Watson wrote:
>>
>>> If you continue to feel your experience is best described as "dizzy"
>>> or "disoriented" in this particular situation and it re-occurs, you
>>> really should see an Eye, Ear, and Nose specialist.
>>>
>>> I am a long time pilot that was recently treated for a benign vertigo
>>> condition. It was quite benign, temporary, and fully treatable. In
>>> the process I was exposed to the full range of related conditions.
>>> There are many and the causes are varied. Some are threatening way
>>> beyond piloting. A specialist can really help here.
>>>
>>> New Pilot wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill, the treatment allowed you to fly also? Or, was the condition
>> temporary and went away?
>>
> Temporary and went away completely. A not uncommon condition that can
> be treated bio-mechanically. Quite an experience to walk in a doctor's
> office with a problem and walk out well. Cause is loose debris in the
> inner ear. The remedy is to move it around so it doesn't interact with
> those inner ear 'gyros'. See
> http://www.tchain.com/otoneurology/disorders/bppv/bppv.html
>
> Anecdotally, I had a 'strange' viral infection in the preceding month.
>
> Scared the heck out of me.
I had something like that about 6 years ago and it too went away. My
wife worked for an ENT at the time and I was doing the maneuvers.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[[email protected]]

On Jan 16, 3:55 pm, Dallas > wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:25:06 +0000, New Pilot wrote:
> > I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> > surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin.
>
> Me smells a troll.
>
> --
> Dallas

You may be right... Reconsidering this line:

"I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land."

That's it? Must have been a pretty short checkride....

Dan

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> I wonder if Mxsmanic has ever experienced vertigo while flying his Sim?

I doubt MX ever has, since he's flying MSFS on a regular computer monitor.

On our Kiwi, however, with that 104" projection screen "world", it's pretty
common for people to feel "tilted" with near-vertigo. We had one little kid
get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[New Pilot]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:22:38 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:

>On Jan 16, 3:55 pm, Dallas > wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:25:06 +0000, New Pilot wrote:
>> > I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
>> > surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin.
>>
>> Me smells a troll.
>>
>> --
>> Dallas
>
>You may be right... Reconsidering this line:
>
>"I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
>flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land."
>
>That's it? Must have been a pretty short checkride....
>
>Dan

Not trolling I promise
Checkride NST plus General handling test took about 2 1/2 hours
CAA PPL

maybe the wording gave the wrong idea but i was trying to say that
there were no problems with general handling of the aircraft.
No way my examiner would have passed me if there were.
The disorieantation was from straight and level flight with no control
inputs from myself the aircraft would sometimes start to yaw usually
no more that about 15 degrees similar to crabbing in on final with
crosswind . this was the only way i could think of describing it.
The other factor is that my home airport is on the very near the coast
I notice this more as when flying along the coast it seems to be when
the above happens and the picture seen from the front is vey noticable
as i either yaw towards the sea or inland.
I figured that the rudder trim would be okay as when the above did not
happen the aircraft would follow the heading okay and stabalator trim
set i could fly hands free (PA28) for a short time.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:RRxjj.38615$Ux2.967@attbi_s22:

>> I wonder if Mxsmanic has ever experienced vertigo while flying his
>> Sim?
>
> I doubt MX ever has, since he's flying MSFS on a regular computer
> monitor.
>
> On our Kiwi, however, with that 104" projection screen "world", it's
> pretty common for people to feel "tilted" with near-vertigo. We had
> one little kid get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.

Much as I feel now.

Bertie

[[email protected]]

> I wonder if Ken taught him to fly.
>
> Bertie-

Or Anthony?

[[email protected]]

>
> Maybe he uses rubber vomit!
>
> Bertie
>

LOL.

Nah. You press ctrl-alt-shift-7-u-v and out comes a splash all over
the "controls" and "windshield".

[[email protected]]

> his lack of flight
> experience is causing him to describe it as a "crosswind".
>

With a PPL?

How did he pass his oral?

[[email protected]]

> *We had one little kid
> get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.
> --
> Jay Honeck

Dude.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

wrote in news:30acb4e1-d99c-48f7-807a-f1f2f5267434@
1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com:

>> I wonder if Ken taught him to fly.
>>
>> Bertie-
>
> Or Anthony?


Xactly.


Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Jan 16, 7:42*pm, New Pilot > wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:22:38 -0800 (PST), "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Jan 16, 3:55 pm, Dallas > wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:25:06 +0000, New Pilot wrote:
> >> > *I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> >> > surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin.
>
> >> Me smells a troll.
>
> >> --
> >> Dallas
>
> >You may be right... Reconsidering this line:
>
> >"I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> >flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land."
>
> >That's it? Must have been a pretty short checkride....
>
> >Dan
>
> Not trolling I promise
> Checkride NST plus General handling test took about 2 1/2 hours
> CAA PPL
>
> maybe the wording gave the wrong idea but i was trying to say that
> there were no problems with general handling of the aircraft.
> No way my examiner would have passed me if there were.
> The disorieantation was from straight and level flight with no control
> inputs from myself the aircraft would sometimes start to yaw usually
> no more that about 15 degrees similar to crabbing in on final with
> crosswind . this was the only way i could think of describing it.

Well, I don't know about this yaw business.

Are you trying to say that in order to head for a particular landmark
the aircraft had to pointed slightly to one side of that landmark, and
that the plane was oriented at an angle to your ground track?

We've all seen that. If it's disorienting I agree you should see your
flight surgeon about it.

It seems the doc might suspend your medical, however that might work.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

New Pilot > wrote in news:0cbto3h3bhmaejrjvg1kerskgec9o4bqbt@
4ax.com:


>
> Not trolling I promise
> Checkride NST plus General handling test took about 2 1/2 hours
> CAA PPL
>
> maybe the wording gave the wrong idea but i was trying to say that
> there were no problems with general handling of the aircraft.
> No way my examiner would have passed me if there were.
> The disorieantation was from straight and level flight with no control
> inputs from myself the aircraft would sometimes start to yaw usually
> no more that about 15 degrees similar to crabbing in on final with
> crosswind . this was the only way i could think of describing it.
> The other factor is that my home airport is on the very near the coast
> I notice this more as when flying along the coast it seems to be when
> the above happens and the picture seen from the front is vey noticable
> as i either yaw towards the sea or inland.
> I figured that the rudder trim would be okay as when the above did not
> happen the aircraft would follow the heading okay and stabalator trim
> set i could fly hands free (PA28) for a short time.
>



He's probably telling the truth. Some of you may have noticed me mentioning
certain deficiencies in the way Brits teach flying?
I heard this same spiel from an Ex RAF Herc squadron commander many years
ago.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

wrote in news:20d08eb7-a333-4b2e-b974-8b6511ce6351
@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

>>
>> Maybe he uses rubber vomit!
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> LOL.
>
> Nah. You press ctrl-alt-shift-7-u-v and out comes a splash all over
> the "controls" and "windshield".
>

Eww.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

wrote in news:f301266c-b35b-459b-ae16-5edadae73fe0
@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com:

>> his lack of flight
>> experience is causing him to describe it as a "crosswind".
>>
>
> With a PPL?
>
> How did he pass his oral?
>
>

UK rules.

And they laugh at US pilots.....



Bertie

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

kontiki > writes:
> Oh. Thanks. Sounds like a good trick to use on a student
> when you are teaching unusual attitude recovery.

My instructor did this for me when I was doing my hood work for my
private pilot certificate. It was quite illuminating, to say the
least.

Chris

[[email protected]]

On Jan 17, 8:57 am, Airbus > wrote:
>
> Disorientation can be accompanied by coriolis effect, or not. When you
> lose visual reference to the horizon, and your physical sensations give
> you misleading information about your situation, this is disorientation.

"Coriolis" when used in Aviation refers to the earth's rotational
affect on air masses:

http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadFAQ/BadCoriolisFAQ.html

A good discussion on "dizziness":

http://www.med.umn.edu/otol/library/dizzines.htm

Dan

[Tina]

Are you always flying the same airplane? If so, look it over very
carefully during your next preflight. There may be something loose
that can move into the air stream to cause yaw.

Or, until this dizziness issue is resolved, try flying a different
airplane (with a safety pilot). It could be the airplane, and not you.
The thing that suggests 'it's the airplane' model is you talk about
it happening in a cruise configuration, straight and level, when the
airspeed might be higher. It would, I think. take a smaller disruption
in airflow to induce yaw at a higher airspeed.


As others have pointed out, most times the longitudinal axis of the
airplane does not point in the direction the airplane is going over
the ground because of cross winds, but that does not induce yaw. A
novice pilot, with way less experience than .you have, might try to
make the airplane line up with the ground track by using the rudder.



an On Jan 16, 7:25 am, New Pilot > wrote:
> Hi folks, y
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>
> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
> window in VFR starts to rotate.
> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
> ball in the centre.
>
> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>
> thanks

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article >,
says...


Disorientation can be accompanied by coriolis effect, or not. When you
lose visual reference to the horizon, and your physical sensations give
you misleading information about your situation, this is disorientation.
Sometimes this can be accompanied by the dizziness you describe, and many
pilots have felt this.

The trouble is that you are experiencing it in a situation where you have
not lost visual references. If you have a PPL, it means you have some
hours, so it is not your first time in a plane or anything.

My (non-expert) read on this is that it is not normal, and possibly not
compatible with flying. Consult a doctor first - it may be somùething
easily addressed.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 17, 11:07 pm, Airbus > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> says...
>
>
>
> >On Jan 17, 8:57 am, Airbus > wrote:
>
> >> Disorientation can be accompanied by coriolis effect, or not. When you
> >> lose visual reference to the horizon, and your physical sensations give
> >> you misleading information about your situation, this is disorientation.
>
> >"Coriolis" when used in Aviation refers to the earth's rotational
> >affect on air masses:
>
> Better research would have rendered you reply so much more convincing . . .
>
> http://www.answers.com/topic/artificial-gravity?cat=technology
>
> http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa17.pdf
>
> http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/coriolis.pdf

Thanks for the reminder, however snidely proffered.

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Jan 17, 11:39 pm, Airbus > wrote:

> This discussion came up here maybe a year or so ago, and someone who was pretty
> well informed used the term. I was tempted to reply in the way you did, but I
> checked first, and found out I still had much to learn.

As we all do. Please accept my apologies as well.

If I remember correctly Coriolis illusion is mentioned in the
Instrument Flying Handbook.

I should have 'membered that!

Dan

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> We had one little kid
>get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.

eeeeewwww

And need therapy into her thirties.

Dang, what kinda place you runnin'?

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

>> We had one little kid
>>get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.
>
> eeeeewwww
>
> And need therapy into her thirties.
>
> Dang, what kinda place you runnin'?

Jeez, get your mind outta the gutter!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:XnRjj.39979$Ux2.10152
@attbi_s22:

>>> We had one little kid
>>>get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.
>>
>> eeeeewwww
>>
>> And need therapy into her thirties.
>>
>> Dang, what kinda place you runnin'?
>
> Jeez, get your mind outta the gutter!


So it must have been the buffet, then.

Bertie

[Judah]

New Pilot > wrote in news:n9tro39afurstkjapf0rtnc6ppl43not4v@
4ax.com:

> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>
> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
> window in VFR starts to rotate.
> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
> ball in the centre.
>
> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>
> thanks

I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying "hands off
& feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the prevailing wind
current.

The point about the plane not maintaining coordination is probably about
right - certainly you are not "stepping on the ball" (or perhaps more
likely as a new pilot, stepping on it too much) and causing a skid or slip,
which is probably contributing to your disorientation.

Generally speaking, though, the weathervaning that I have experienced has
caused a turn that was not very quick, but more progressive and subtle. If
you are experiencing an aggressive turn, I have to believe you are not
controlling the rudder properly. Otherwise if you are getting dizzy from a
simple turn at altitude, I would agree with the others here that you should
visit your AME...

I can only remember getting dizzy while flying twice. Once when I did my
first recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (I had a pretty
aggressive instructor - I think he was doing himmelmans while I was there
with my head pointed at the floor), and once when I had just recovered from
a cold and had a bit of trouble getting my ears to pop on a relatively
aggressive descent - apparently I wasn't as recovered as I thought I was,
and when my ears finally did pop, my whole head whooshed for a second.

You should not be experiencing dizziness on a regular basis during normal
straight-and-level flight nor even in a relatively aggressive turn. Do you
have trouble doing short approaches or steep turns?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Judah > wrote in
:


>
> I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
> "hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the
> prevailing wind current.


Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady wind.


Bertie

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article
>,
says...
>
>
>On Jan 17, 8:57 am, Airbus > wrote:
>>
>> Disorientation can be accompanied by coriolis effect, or not. When you
>> lose visual reference to the horizon, and your physical sensations give
>> you misleading information about your situation, this is disorientation.
>
>"Coriolis" when used in Aviation refers to the earth's rotational
>affect on air masses:
>


Better research would have rendered you reply so much more convincing . . .

http://www.answers.com/topic/artificial-gravity?cat=technology

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa17.pdf

http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/coriolis.pdf

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>On Jan 17, 11:07 pm, Airbus > wrote:
>> In article
>> >,
>> says...
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 17, 8:57 am, Airbus > wrote:
>>
>> >> Disorientation can be accompanied by coriolis effect, or not. When you
>> >> lose visual reference to the horizon, and your physical sensations give
>> >> you misleading information about your situation, this is disorientation.
>>
>> >"Coriolis" when used in Aviation refers to the earth's rotational
>> >affect on air masses:
>>
>> Better research would have rendered you reply so much more convincing . . .
>>
>> http://www.answers.com/topic/artificial-gravity?cat=technology
>>
>> http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa17.pdf
>>
>> http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/coriolis.pdf
>
>Thanks for the reminder, however snidely proffered.

You're right - I apologize.
This discussion came up here maybe a year or so ago, and someone who was pretty
well informed used the term. I was tempted to reply in the way you did, but I
checked first, and found out I still had much to learn.

[Judah]

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote in
:

> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady
> wind.

Hence the term "prevailing"...

[Kizzy]

On Jan 16, 8:28*pm, wrote:
> > *We had one little kid
> > get motion sick, watching her dad yank and crank.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
>
> Dude.

Mxsmaniac has never felt anything due to the unfortunate circumstance
of him being born without a brain. I suspect Ken is suffering from the
same ailment.

[Tina]

Well, no, Bertie. We landed at Burke Lakefront one winter, wind was
stong enough to weathervane the Mooney on a snowpacked taxiway.


On Jan 17, 10:28*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Judah > wrote 54:
>
>
>
> > I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
> > "hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the
> > prevailing wind current.
>
> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady wind..
>
> Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Judah > wrote in news:Xns9A29CA8A84A5EJudahnospamnet@
209.197.15.254:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote in
> :
>
>> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady
>> wind.
>
> Hence the term "prevailing"...
>

Um, that means something a bit more long term to me.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Tina > wrote in
:

> Well, no, Bertie. We landed at Burke Lakefront one winter, wind was
> stong enough to weathervane the Mooney on a snowpacked taxiway.
>

Of course! I've seen it weathervane a lot of airplanes. On the ground.


Bertie
>
> On Jan 17, 10:28*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Judah > wrote
>>
> 97.15.254:
>>
>>
>>
>> > I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
>> > "hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against
>> > the prevailing wind current.
>>
>> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady
>> wind
> .
>>
>> Bertie
>
>

[[email protected]]

> > I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
> > "hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the
> > prevailing wind current.
>
> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady wind.
>
> Bertie

Mistaking rudder out of trim, maybe, for "weather-vaning" while
embedded in a moving air mass?

I think of our 152s little trim tab. It's adjusted so that you
absolutely have no tendency of the plane to yaw straight and level.

I noticed flying the 172 the other day that it had a tendency to come
off course more.

Is this a rudder trim effect (plenty of aircraft have rudder trim
tabs)?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

wrote in
:

>> > I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
>> > "hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against
>> > the prevailing wind current.
>>
>> Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady
>> wind.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Mistaking rudder out of trim, maybe, for "weather-vaning" while
> embedded in a moving air mass?
>
> I think of our 152s little trim tab. It's adjusted so that you
> absolutely have no tendency of the plane to yaw straight and level.
>
> I noticed flying the 172 the other day that it had a tendency to come
> off course more.
>
> Is this a rudder trim effect (plenty of aircraft have rudder trim
> tabs)?

Probably he's noticing the drift while enroute and has the whole wind
thing assways in his head. This is pretty common amongst British pilots.
They get told about wind in books but are taught no ground reference
manuevers at all. They can probably regurgitate what they have been told
about wind, but I have found few of them who really understand it, let
alone manuever the airplane anything like instinctually in relation to
wind.
They get told a lot of really useful things that US pilots do not, BTW.
Largely about weather and nav, but aircraft handling is abyssmal.
A lot of old american airplanes have been imported there in recent
years. Luscombes, Champs, cubs, etc. and they are wrecked at a ferocious
rate, partly because of this deficiency in initial training, partly
because of the wild weather and their fondness fo rvery short fields,
and partly because most of them don't get to fly enough because of the
Wx and the horrific costs.
I completely believe the OP, a UK PL meant what he said. I would reckon
his instructor knows only marginally more than that about wind.

Adn don't even get me started on how they aproach stalls!


Bertie

[New Pilot]

On 18 Jan 2008 03:24:59 GMT, Judah > wrote:

>New Pilot > wrote in news:n9tro39afurstkjapf0rtnc6ppl43not4v@
>4ax.com:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.
>>
>> I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
>> flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
>> One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
>> flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
>> arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
>> surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
>> understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
>> I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
>> window in VFR starts to rotate.
>> I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
>> ball in the centre.
>>
>> Is this normal or should I not be flying?
>>
>> thanks
>
>I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying "hands off
>& feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the prevailing wind
>current.
>
>The point about the plane not maintaining coordination is probably about
>right - certainly you are not "stepping on the ball" (or perhaps more
>likely as a new pilot, stepping on it too much) and causing a skid or slip,
>which is probably contributing to your disorientation.
>
>Generally speaking, though, the weathervaning that I have experienced has
>caused a turn that was not very quick, but more progressive and subtle. If
>you are experiencing an aggressive turn, I have to believe you are not
>controlling the rudder properly. Otherwise if you are getting dizzy from a
>simple turn at altitude, I would agree with the others here that you should
>visit your AME...
>
>I can only remember getting dizzy while flying twice. Once when I did my
>first recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (I had a pretty
>aggressive instructor - I think he was doing himmelmans while I was there
>with my head pointed at the floor), and once when I had just recovered from
>a cold and had a bit of trouble getting my ears to pop on a relatively
>aggressive descent - apparently I wasn't as recovered as I thought I was,
>and when my ears finally did pop, my whole head whooshed for a second.
>
> You should not be experiencing dizziness on a regular basis during normal
>straight-and-level flight nor even in a relatively aggressive turn. Do you
>have trouble doing short approaches or steep turns?


The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
the aircraft 15 degrees.
Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
did not seem to have much if any effect.

Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
left.
maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
level for a rest may not help.

Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
and no baggage.

[Judah]

New Pilot > wrote in
:

> The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
> the aircraft 15 degrees.
>
> Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
> direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
> I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
> did not seem to have much if any effect.

Sounds awfully slow and consistent to be weathervaning to me. As others
have said, weathervaning happens with wind gusts and you'd feel the plane
being "pushed" a few degrees left or right as it was happening.

More than likely it's a coordination issue. Either the rudder and/or
aileron trim is off, or you're letting your feet and fingers do things that
your head isn't paying attention to. You're the pilot, man. Control the
plane! Watch the ball!

> Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
> Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
> full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
> Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
> left.
> maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
> pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
> level for a rest may not help.

Have you tried starting with a left turn? I don't think it's completely
outrageous for you to have a momentary queasy sensation as you do the 90*
switch (from right 45 to left 45). It doesn't happen to me, but I can see
how it might be uncomfortable for some.

> Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
> pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
> really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
> and no baggage.

The concept of the short approach is that you're going to be doing an
aggressive descent in a 30* bank turn...

I'm guessing you may have some "queasiness" issues (my sister has them) and
may want to talk to your AME about it. I think your "weathervaning" issues
are really just letting yourself be the passenger instead of the pilot.

[New Pilot]

On 20 Jan 2008 20:44:55 GMT, Judah > wrote:

>New Pilot > wrote in
:
>
>> The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
>> the aircraft 15 degrees.
>>
>> Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
>> direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
>> I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
>> did not seem to have much if any effect.
>
>Sounds awfully slow and consistent to be weathervaning to me. As others
>have said, weathervaning happens with wind gusts and you'd feel the plane
>being "pushed" a few degrees left or right as it was happening.
>
>More than likely it's a coordination issue. Either the rudder and/or
>aileron trim is off, or you're letting your feet and fingers do things that
>your head isn't paying attention to. You're the pilot, man. Control the
>plane! Watch the ball!
>
>> Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
>> Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
>> full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
>> Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
>> left.
>> maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
>> pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
>> level for a rest may not help.
>
>Have you tried starting with a left turn? I don't think it's completely
>outrageous for you to have a momentary queasy sensation as you do the 90*
>switch (from right 45 to left 45). It doesn't happen to me, but I can see
>how it might be uncomfortable for some.
>
>> Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
>> pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
>> really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
>> and no baggage.
>
>The concept of the short approach is that you're going to be doing an
>aggressive descent in a 30* bank turn...
>
>I'm guessing you may have some "queasiness" issues (my sister has them) and
>may want to talk to your AME about it. I think your "weathervaning" issues
>are really just letting yourself be the passenger instead of the pilot.

Thanks for that, could well be just me being a passenger.
The nearest to the short approach sometimes is a base leg join where I
have to loose 800 feet in a short time and turning. but thats not
really agressive.

In response to another poster mentioning the UK weather and costs that
is absolutly right. weather here has been awful on the south coast and
the cost of flying
Hire for 1 hour of a PA28 wet is about $250 at loose approximation US
dollars
Landing fee at my local airport is now $35
Touch and go is $16 and they now charge $16 for a missed approach
-they waive that fee if ATC instruct a go around,

[Judah]

New Pilot > wrote in
:

> Thanks for that, could well be just me being a passenger.
> The nearest to the short approach sometimes is a base leg join where I
> have to loose 800 feet in a short time and turning. but thats not
> really agressive.
>
> In response to another poster mentioning the UK weather and costs that
> is absolutly right. weather here has been awful on the south coast and
> the cost of flying
> Hire for 1 hour of a PA28 wet is about $250 at loose approximation US
> dollars
> Landing fee at my local airport is now $35
> Touch and go is $16 and they now charge $16 for a missed approach
> -they waive that fee if ATC instruct a go around,

Holy cow! That's out of control - charging for a missed approach?!?! Is
this a Class B airport or something? What is their justification? How much
wear & tear does your Archer cause the runway when it never even touches
it! Are they concerned about the downdrafts from the ground effect?

I think you should consider moving to the US. Life will be better.
Especially in another two or three years...

I don't think I ever paid more than $15 for a landing fee in an Archer (or
even in a Bonanza, for that matter). And I've only ever heard of one
airport in the US where the owner was trying to charge people for touch &
goes. And I don't think he does it anymore. But even he wasn't charging for
a go-around or missed approach...

[New Pilot]

On 21 Jan 2008 15:00:46 GMT, Judah > wrote:

>New Pilot > wrote in
:
>
>> Thanks for that, could well be just me being a passenger.
>> The nearest to the short approach sometimes is a base leg join where I
>> have to loose 800 feet in a short time and turning. but thats not
>> really agressive.
>>
>> In response to another poster mentioning the UK weather and costs that
>> is absolutly right. weather here has been awful on the south coast and
>> the cost of flying
>> Hire for 1 hour of a PA28 wet is about $250 at loose approximation US
>> dollars
>> Landing fee at my local airport is now $35
>> Touch and go is $16 and they now charge $16 for a missed approach
>> -they waive that fee if ATC instruct a go around,
>
>Holy cow! That's out of control - charging for a missed approach?!?! Is
>this a Class B airport or something? What is their justification? How much
>wear & tear does your Archer cause the runway when it never even touches
>it! Are they concerned about the downdrafts from the ground effect?
>
>I think you should consider moving to the US. Life will be better.
>Especially in another two or three years...
>
>I don't think I ever paid more than $15 for a landing fee in an Archer (or
>even in a Bonanza, for that matter). And I've only ever heard of one
>airport in the US where the owner was trying to charge people for touch &
>goes. And I don't think he does it anymore. But even he wasn't charging for
>a go-around or missed approach...

This is fairly normal for UK GA airfields. This one has full ATC
unlike a lot of smaller airfields though the largest plane usually
handled are 12 seat biz jets due to the main runway being just a
little over 1000 meters long. the ICAO code is EGKA. Touch and goes
are charged at some rate usually half or below half of the landing
fees. Seems to be factored into their running costs though I don't
know the ins and outs of how their financial model works - only that
it is very expensive for the humble pilot. The Fees above are based on
weight and are the above for anything up to 1.5 metric tonnes they
double for bigger aircraft.
The missed approach fees started a few months ago. I think because
aircraft from other local airfields were practicing approaches and
before the wheels touched the ground putting on power and going
around. This they would do a couple of times - usually flight training
outfits and then they would fly merrily of back to their own airfield
with a few low approaches and no touch and go fees. Aircraft from my
airfield are equally guilty of the same practice and unilaterally my
airfield has put this charge on theoretically to discourage the
practice. that is the official line. The downside is that resident
pilots may try to recover a landing to avoid the fee plus the extra 6
minutes going round the circuit instead of maybe doing the right thing
and declaring a missed approach.

[Judah]

New Pilot > wrote in
:

> This is fairly normal for UK GA airfields. This one has full ATC
> unlike a lot of smaller airfields though the largest plane usually
> handled are 12 seat biz jets due to the main runway being just a
> little over 1000 meters long. the ICAO code is EGKA. Touch and goes
> are charged at some rate usually half or below half of the landing
> fees. Seems to be factored into their running costs though I don't
> know the ins and outs of how their financial model works - only that
> it is very expensive for the humble pilot. The Fees above are based on
> weight and are the above for anything up to 1.5 metric tonnes they
> double for bigger aircraft.
> The missed approach fees started a few months ago. I think because
> aircraft from other local airfields were practicing approaches and
> before the wheels touched the ground putting on power and going
> around. This they would do a couple of times - usually flight training
> outfits and then they would fly merrily of back to their own airfield
> with a few low approaches and no touch and go fees. Aircraft from my
> airfield are equally guilty of the same practice and unilaterally my
> airfield has put this charge on theoretically to discourage the
> practice. that is the official line. The downside is that resident
> pilots may try to recover a landing to avoid the fee plus the extra 6
> minutes going round the circuit instead of maybe doing the right thing
> and declaring a missed approach.

To put it in perspective, I fly out of a Class D airport, KHPN -
Westchester County Airport - in a large suburb of New York City. The
airport has a tower, and has two intersecting runways - one about 6500' (~
2000 meters), the other 4500' (~1500 meters).

We have several airlines flying out of our field - Delta, United, USAir,
American, Continental, JetBlue, and AirTran. Landing fees for transient
single-engine pistons is $15. There are no fees for touch & goes or for
missed approaches, at least not to the pistons. I don't know what the "big
boys" pay, but I'm sure it's more. ;)

Besides the obvious safety issue, what's to stop a training flight from
lying about his/her tail #?