Naval Aviators

[[email protected]]

I glanced in my copy of Hansen's "First Man, The Life of Neil A.
Armstrong" and happened on a passage about the background of the
Apollo pilots charged with landing the LMs on the Moon: six of the
seven chosen were naval aviators
(Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
(Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
Force.

I wonder if there are enough training or experience differences to
have played a role, or if it was an individual talent / skill issue.

Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?

[Jim Logajan]

wrote:
> Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?

Here's one list of presumably all astronauts (haven't plowed through it for
an answer):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronauts_by_selection

[TheSmokingGnu]

wrote:
> six of the
> seven chosen were naval aviators
> (Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
> (Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
> Force.

That's because they needed one Air Force to fly it and six Navy pukes to
keep it afloat once they touched down. *tongue in cheek*

TheSmokingGnu

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jan 23, 7:13*pm, wrote:
> I glanced in my copy of Hansen's "First Man, The Life of Neil A.
> Armstrong" and happened on a passage about the background of the
> Apollo pilots charged with landing the LMs on the Moon: six of the
> seven chosen were naval aviators
> (Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
> (Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
> Force.
>
> I wonder if there are enough training or experience differences to
> have played a role, or if it was an individual talent / skill issue.
>
> Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?

Walt Cunningham but he was a Naval Aviator ( USMC) before he went into
the space program. I had the pleasure of hooking up with him again at
the birthday ball here when he was keynote speaker and I got to sit
with him and his wife. Hadn't seen him since MCAS Yuma many years
earler (1962-3) when he flew in with a T-38 and NASA on the tail.
I suspect the program had as much to do with politics as anything
else......
Semper Fi - Ol S&B

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:13:05 -0800 (PST), wrote:

> I glanced in my copy of Hansen's "First Man, The Life of Neil A.
> Armstrong" and happened on a passage about the background of the
> Apollo pilots charged with landing the LMs on the Moon: six of the
> seven chosen were naval aviators
> (Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
> (Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
> Force.
>
> I wonder if there are enough training or experience differences to
> have played a role, or if it was an individual talent / skill issue.

ISTR reading somewhere there was an Air Force policy that led to fewer
applicants. It may have been (just speculating here) that the Air Force wanted
to keep the best candidates to fly the fleet of spacecraft it intended to
acquire.

Ron Wanttaja

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> I glanced in my copy of Hansen's "First Man, The Life of Neil A.
> Armstrong" and happened on a passage about the background of the
> Apollo pilots charged with landing the LMs on the Moon: six of the
> seven chosen were naval aviators
> (Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
> (Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
> Force.
>
> I wonder if there are enough training or experience differences to
> have played a role, or if it was an individual talent / skill issue.
>
> Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?
>

Yes, Neil Armstrong.

[terry]

On Jan 24, 12:13*pm, wrote:
> I glanced in my copy of Hansen's "First Man, The Life of Neil A.
> Armstrong" and happened on a passage about the background of the
> Apollo pilots charged with landing the LMs on the Moon: six of the
> seven chosen were naval aviators
> (Armstrong,Conrad,Shepard,Young,Cernan). Only one was US Air Force
> (Scott). Deke Slayton hand picked the guys -- and Slayton was Air
> Force.
>
> I wonder if there are enough training or experience differences to
> have played a role, or if it was an individual talent / skill issue.
>
> Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?

interesting stat. you could say that 7 out of 10 LM commanders were
Navy
Lovell ( Apollo 13), Gordon ( Apollo 18 - cancelled) were Navy
McDivitt ( Apollo 9) and Stafford ( Apollo 10) were Air Force.

If the commanders flew the LMs why was the second guy always called
the LM pilot?
I am sure there has been plenty of civilian pilots in the shuttle
program but not as pilots.

Harrison Schmitt ( Apollo 17 Lunar module pilot) was a civillian but
to what extent did he help fly the LM?
Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
Terry
PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)

[[email protected]]

>
> > Any civilian pilots ever in the US space program?
>
> Yes, Neil Armstrong.

Before becoming an astronaut, Armstrong was an aviator for the United
States Navy and saw action in the Korean War.

So, then he worked for NACA after getting out of the navy. So, at that
point he was a civilian.

What I meant was: any civilians who were not originally trained in
military flight programs but in rather in civilian training programs.

Harrison Schmitt was mentioned. A geologist. Of course!

[[email protected]]

> Harrison Schmitt ( Apollo 17 Lunar module pilot) was a civillian but
> to what extent did he help fly the LM?
> Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> Terry
> PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)

Check out the NASA footage of the practice LMs being flown.

Here's a link I found to some posts about flying the thing -- of
course it is the Internet so, maybe complete BS.

http://yarchive.net/space/apollo/lunar_module_landing.html

[[email protected]]

> Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> Terry
> PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)

Try your luck. They got Eugene Cernan to give it a go:

http://eaglelander3d.com/

[terry]

On Jan 24, 7:37*pm, wrote:
> > Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> > Terry
> > PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)
>
> Try your luck. They got Eugene Cernan to give it a go:
>
> http://eaglelander3d.com/

thanks sock, this looks way cool, only 17 hrs to go to finish
downloading!

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:33:39 -0800 (PST), terry > wrote:

> If the commanders flew the LMs why was the second guy always called
> the LM pilot?

The Shuttle carries the same system...person in the left seat is the Commander,
the one in the right seat is the Pilot.

> Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?

Next to nothing, I think, but pilots must develop good hand-eye coordination,
quickly interpret instruments, and are accustomed to their physical attitude
changing in response to their movement of controls. Probably a good start, when
looking for an LM driver.

Ron Wanttaja

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 24, 12:27*am, wrote:
> > Harrison Schmitt ( Apollo 17 Lunar module pilot) was a civillian but
> > to what extent did he help fly the LM?
> > Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> > Terry
> > PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)
>
> Check out the NASA footage of the practice LMs being flown.
>
> Here's a link I found to some posts about flying the thing -- of
> course it is the Internet so, maybe complete BS.
>
> http://yarchive.net/space/apollo/lunar_module_landing.html

Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.

-Robert

[terry]

On Jan 25, 2:30*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 12:27*am, wrote:
>
> > > Harrison Schmitt ( Apollo 17 Lunar module pilot) was a civillian but
> > > to what extent did he help fly the LM?
> > > Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> > > Terry
> > > PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)
>
> > Check out the NASA footage of the practice LMs being flown.
>
> > Here's a link I found to some posts about flying the thing -- of
> > course it is the Internet so, maybe complete BS.
>
> >http://yarchive.net/space/apollo/lunar_module_landing.html
>
> Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
> that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
> which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
> practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
> addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
>
yes it was a very risky endeavour to be sure, but the LM was probably
the most reliable part of the whole system. I dont recall any tethered
flights with the LM , I dont think it had enough thrust to fly in
earths gravity. they did make some wierd contraption, which they
called the" flying bedstead" that tried to simulate the LM on earth.
Armstrong nearly killed himself in it. I dont know where you got the
6 out of 10 engine failure stat from, the LM ascent engine
reliability was something that was given a hell of a lot of attention,
NASA realizing the public relations disaster of leaving astronauts
stranded on the moon. I do not believe they would have accepted a 6
out of 10 failure rate. the engine itself was of hypergolic design,
nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine which only had to come into contact
to ignite. The LM worked almost flawlessly on 9 out of 9 space
flights including of course Apollo 13 where it performed way above
what it was designed for.
terry

[ManhattanMan]

terry wrote:
> out of 10 failure rate. the engine itself was of hypergolic design,
> nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine which only had to come into contact
> to ignite. The LM worked almost flawlessly on 9 out of 9 space
> flights including of course Apollo 13 where it performed way above
> what it was designed for.
> terry

They have the enigine on display at the Space Museum in Alamogordo, NM, and
I was amazed how small it is!

[terry]

On Jan 25, 7:31*am, terry > wrote:
snip
> The LM worked almost flawlessly on 9 out of 9 space
> flights including of course Apollo 13 where it performed way above
> what it was designed for.

that should have been 10/10 I had forgotten Apollo 5, the unmanned LM
test in earth orbit.
terry

[terry]

On Jan 25, 7:58*am, "ManhattanMan" > wrote:
> terry wrote:
> > out of 10 failure rate. the engine itself was of hypergolic design,
> > nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine which only had to come into contact
> > to ignite. *The LM worked almost flawlessly on 9 out of 9 space
> > flights including of course Apollo 13 where it performed way above
> > what it was designed for.
> > terry
>
> They have the enigine on display at the Space Museum in Alamogordo, NM, and
> I was amazed how small it is!

must get to see that one day. have only been to the states once
( 1985) and 3 of my highlights were Kennedy Spacecenter, Johnson
Space Center and the Smithsonian. ( oh and of course all those nice
american people ). Big bummer was missing the space shuttle
launch... damn computer hitch delayed it.
terry

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> In addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
>
>-Robert


Maybe if they had asked nicely the other 4 times...?

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200801/1

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 24, 12:31*pm, terry > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2:30*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>

> yes it was a very risky endeavour to be sure, but the LM was probably
> the most reliable part of the whole system. I dont recall any tethered
> flights with the LM , I dont think it had enough thrust to fly in
> earths gravity. * *

They had a version that was created for the purpose of training the
crew....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH0VYi1G6jo

-Robert

[[email protected]]

> the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
>
> -Robert

Hmm.

I think it worked 7 out of 7.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
> that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
> which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
> practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
> addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.

What four times did it fail?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 24, 7:15*pm, Bob Noel >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
> > that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
> > which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
> > practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
> > addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
>
> What four times did it fail?

During engine testing.


-Robert

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Jan 24, 7:15*pm, Bob Noel >
> wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> >
> > > Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
> > > that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
> > > which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
> > > practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
> > > addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
> >
> > What four times did it fail?
>
> During engine testing.

Before or after the engine was completed? I doubt any engine actually mounted
to a LM failed. And for sure and for certain, none failed in flight.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 25, 4:24*pm, Bob Noel >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 7:15*pm, Bob Noel >
> > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > > Today, scientist look back at the moon landings and are still in shock
> > > > that no one ever died. Back then no one really realized the extent to
> > > > which they got lucky many times on the Apollo missions. During
> > > > practice with the LM teethered the pilots often would lose control. In
> > > > addition, the assent rocket on the LM only worked 6 out of 10 times.
>
> > > What four times did it fail?
>
> > During engine testing.
>
> Before or after the engine was completed? * I doubt any engine actually mounted
> to a LM failed. *And for sure and for certain, none failed in flight.

After the engine was "completed", not mounted to an LM, the testing
was done on a stand, certainly not in flight (thankfully), although at
least one test vehicle was lost when the attitude control failed
(pilot ejected safely).

We know that Armstrong almost did not make it back, not because the
ascent rocket didn't work but because the breaker to fire it broke
off. Luckily U.S. gov't pens have lots of metal and fit into the hole
of a broken breaker. The first lunar ascention was accomplished by
jamming a pen into a broken off breaker head.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jan 23, 10:33*pm, terry > wrote:

> Is there really anything in common with flying an airplane and an LM?
> Terry
> PPL ( and aspiring astronaut)


We might ask our resident sim guy. Apparently MSFS has an LM module.

-Robret

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> ISTR reading somewhere there was an Air Force policy that led to fewer
> applicants. It may have been (just speculating here) that the Air Force
> wanted
> to keep the best candidates to fly the fleet of spacecraft it intended to
> acquire.

I don't remember where I read it, but that's true. The Air Force was
intending to field a fleet of military space craft, and none other than
Chuck Yeager was a key member of the team developing the pilots for this
future fleet.

They flew modified F-104 Starfighters fitted with rockets and thrusters (for
steering in a near vacuum) to the very edge of space.

The Air Force pilots in that program looked down their collective noses at
the NASA space program as being just "spam in a can", with no role for them
or their training. In many ways, they were right.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jeff Dougherty]

On Jan 24, 1:33*am, terry > wrote:

> If the commanders flew the LMs why was the second guy always called
> the LM pilot?
> I am sure there has been plenty of civilian pilots in the shuttle
> program but not as pilots.
>
> Harrison Schmitt ( Apollo 17 Lunar module pilot) was a civillian but
> to what extent did he help fly the LM?

The guy in the right-hand seat was called the "Lunar Module Pilot" but
in fact he had very little to do with the hands-on flying of the Lunar
Module. The mission commander was the guy with his hands actually on
the controllers and his eye on the COAS sight, steering the LM down.
The LMP's duties were more like a flight engineer's- they consisted
mostly of making sure that the onboard computer was correctly set up,
calling out guidance information to the pilot during descent, and
dealing with any alarms that cropped up. (_Chariots for Apollo_ notes
that the LMP's original title was "Engineer-Scientist", which is
probably closer to accurate.)

-JTD