Q: C-152 spin characteristics

[gatt[_2_]]

Getting ready to do spins for CFI training, which means not only do I get to
perform them, I have to delivery a ground lesson on them first as well, so
I'm gathering all the data I can find.

Information I have says that in a developed spin most light airplanes make a
complete turn and lose 500' about every 3 seconds.

Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins since
1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.

Thanks!

-Chris

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

"gatt" > wrote in
:

> Getting ready to do spins for CFI training, which means not only do I
> get to perform them, I have to delivery a ground lesson on them first
> as well, so I'm gathering all the data I can find.
>
> Information I have says that in a developed spin most light airplanes
> make a complete turn and lose 500' about every 3 seconds.

Well, that would be a vertical speed of about 100 knots and I would think a
vertical speed of less than fifty in a 150 would be more likey.


Bertie

[Barry]

> Getting ready to do spins for CFI training, which means not only do I get to
> perform them, I have to delivery a ground lesson on them first as well, so
> I'm gathering all the data I can find.
>
> Information I have says that in a developed spin most light airplanes make a
> complete turn and lose 500' about every 3 seconds.
>
> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins since
> 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.

Check the POH for the plane you're using. My POH for a 1980 C152 suggests
allowing 1000 feet for one turn, 2000 feet for six turns, and planning to
recover above 4000 AGL. For other planes that are not certified for spins, I
agree with Jim that you shouldn't emphasize specific spin characteristics.

I think a great resource for spin instruction is the "Understanding Spins"
video made by Barry Schiff for the "Wonderful World of Flying" series. I show
this to student pilots and CFI candidates before doing spin avoidance or spin
lessons. I bought it a long time ago from Sporty's in VHS as "Volume 1" of
the "Proficient Flying" series, but it looks like now only the full set of 3
DVDs is available:

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=7313&DID=19

Barry

[george]

On Jan 25, 5:17 am, "gatt" > wrote:
> Getting ready to do spins for CFI training, which means not only do I get to
> perform them, I have to delivery a ground lesson on them first as well, so
> I'm gathering all the data I can find.
>
> Information I have says that in a developed spin most light airplanes make a
> complete turn and lose 500' about every 3 seconds.
>
> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins since
> 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
>
Set up a simple stall at, say, 3000 AGL and time the descent to 2000
AGl.
Should give you an idea as to the numbers

[gatt[_2_]]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
news:jsmith-403DAB.17314024012008@news-

>> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins since
>> 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
>
> From the SPORTYS catalog...
> Basic Aerobatic Manual [Paperback]
> Part #: Q00161
> Author: William K Kershner
> Pages: 100

Cool. I have his flight instructor's manual based on recommendations here.
It's a reference in my lesson plan along with the Jeppeson Commercial book.
Just wondering if other people have other experience; for example, some
people say at C-152 will unstall itself into a steep spiral descent.

Turns out you can search for "Cessna spin" in YouTube.com and see all kinds
of great videos of people spinning 'em.
One of 'em just shows the instrument panel so you can see when the spin
develops (airspeed drops to zero) and see how much altitude is lost per
second. Can also see the airspeed start to increase dramatically as the
stall is broken.

Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. Some of
those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for safety in
case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls under the rudder
pedal or something)


-c

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

gatt wrote:

> Some of
> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
> insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for safety in
> case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls under the rudder
> pedal or something)

You might as well start thinking like a GOOD instructor right now :-)

There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
"fall under the rudder pedal or something".

This of course is the right answer :-)) Altitude on the other hand, is
also the right answer.


--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

> Cool! *There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. * *Some of
> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
> insane. *I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for safety in
> case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls under the rudder
> pedal or something)
>
> -c

I wouldn't argue with 8 or 9 but 4500 to 5000 is okay for 1 spin in a
152 -- however I've only done 2 with my instructor.

The 152 AIM says 1000 feet for 1 spin entry to recovery.

However, "On the other hand, a 21-turn spin in the C-150 Aerobat took
4100 ft" (==195 ft per turn average).

Here is my primary instructor and her buddy doing a 52.5 turn spin in
a A152. They count off the altitude and the spins. You can see the
altimeter unwinding, and it's about 195 feet per turn, as Kershner
says in his Aerobatics book. You can almost make out the airspeed in
some frames which looks like it might be 40 or 50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsX2yGJ2Tn4

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

"gatt" > wrote in
:

>
> "John Smith" > wrote in message
> news:jsmith-403DAB.17314024012008@news-
>
>>> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins
>>> since 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
>>
>> From the SPORTYS catalog...
>> Basic Aerobatic Manual [Paperback]
>> Part #: Q00161
>> Author: William K Kershner
>> Pages: 100
>
> Cool. I have his flight instructor's manual based on recommendations
> here. It's a reference in my lesson plan along with the Jeppeson
> Commercial book. Just wondering if other people have other experience;
> for example, some people say at C-152 will unstall itself into a steep
> spiral descent.
>
> Turns out you can search for "Cessna spin" in YouTube.com and see all
> kinds of great videos of people spinning 'em.
> One of 'em just shows the instrument panel so you can see when the
> spin develops (airspeed drops to zero) and see how much altitude is
> lost per second. Can also see the airspeed start to increase
> dramatically as the stall is broken.
>
> Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. Some
> of those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which
> seems insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just
> for safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls
> under the rudder pedal or something)

Well, that can happen and has happened to a lot of people. But if you go
up to 9 grand two up in a 150 you got another emergency anyway, cause
you're out of gas!
I'd be happy enough at five with a floor of three


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> gatt wrote:
>
>> Some of
>> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
>> insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for
>> safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls
>> under the rudder pedal or something)
>
> You might as well start thinking like a GOOD instructor right now :-)
>
> There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
> aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
> "fall under the rudder pedal or something".
>
> This of course is the right answer :-)) Altitude on the other hand, is
> also the right answer.
>
>

Surely not 9,000, though?

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

Bob Moore > wrote in
46.128:

I've also done the
> "water-ski" trick with it on the Ohio river.
>


Did it as a pax once in a Cub. Scared the crap out of me!


Bertie

[[email protected]]

> I've spun my MiniMax (homebuilt) twice from 700'. Back straight
> and level by 500'after one turn. Of course, I've also done the
> "water-ski" trick with it on the Ohio river.
>
> Bob Moore

Mmmm. Gentle.

Weren't you even a little bit nervous about that? :)

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> :
>
>> gatt wrote:
>>
>>> Some of
>>> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
>>> insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for
>>> safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls
>>> under the rudder pedal or something)
>> You might as well start thinking like a GOOD instructor right now :-)
>>
>> There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
>> aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
>> "fall under the rudder pedal or something".
>>
>> This of course is the right answer :-)) Altitude on the other hand, is
>> also the right answer.
>>
>>
>
> Surely not 9,000, though?
>
> Bertie
Nah. I never did spin instruction that high. Unless you're doing
sustained spin mode research requiring multiple rotation deep into
sustained modes, there's no need to go that high.


--
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> "gatt" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>> news:jsmith-403DAB.17314024012008@news-
>>
>>>> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done spins
>>>> since 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
>>> From the SPORTYS catalog...
>>> Basic Aerobatic Manual [Paperback]
>>> Part #: Q00161
>>> Author: William K Kershner
>>> Pages: 100
>> Cool. I have his flight instructor's manual based on recommendations
>> here. It's a reference in my lesson plan along with the Jeppeson
>> Commercial book. Just wondering if other people have other experience;
>> for example, some people say at C-152 will unstall itself into a steep
>> spiral descent.
>>
>> Turns out you can search for "Cessna spin" in YouTube.com and see all
>> kinds of great videos of people spinning 'em.
>> One of 'em just shows the instrument panel so you can see when the
>> spin develops (airspeed drops to zero) and see how much altitude is
>> lost per second. Can also see the airspeed start to increase
>> dramatically as the stall is broken.
>>
>> Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. Some
>> of those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which
>> seems insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just
>> for safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls
>> under the rudder pedal or something)
>
> Well, that can happen and has happened to a lot of people. But if you go
> up to 9 grand two up in a 150 you got another emergency anyway, cause
> you're out of gas!
> I'd be happy enough at five with a floor of three
>
>
> Bertie
>
>
.....not to mention the fact that it might take you past the 100 hour to
get up there :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>>> news:jsmith-403DAB.17314024012008@news-
>>>
>>>>> Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't done
>>>>> spins since 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
>>>> From the SPORTYS catalog...
>>>> Basic Aerobatic Manual [Paperback]
>>>> Part #: Q00161
>>>> Author: William K Kershner
>>>> Pages: 100
>>> Cool. I have his flight instructor's manual based on recommendations
>>> here. It's a reference in my lesson plan along with the Jeppeson
>>> Commercial book. Just wondering if other people have other
>>> experience; for example, some people say at C-152 will unstall
>>> itself into a steep spiral descent.
>>>
>>> Turns out you can search for "Cessna spin" in YouTube.com and see
>>> all kinds of great videos of people spinning 'em.
>>> One of 'em just shows the instrument panel so you can see when the
>>> spin develops (airspeed drops to zero) and see how much altitude is
>>> lost per second. Can also see the airspeed start to increase
>>> dramatically as the stall is broken.
>>>
>>> Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins.
>>> Some of those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower,
>>> which seems insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000
>>> just for safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object
>>> falls under the rudder pedal or something)
>>
>> Well, that can happen and has happened to a lot of people. But if you
>> go up to 9 grand two up in a 150 you got another emergency anyway,
>> cause you're out of gas!
>> I'd be happy enough at five with a floor of three
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>>
> ....not to mention the fact that it might take you past the 100 hour
> to get up there :-)))
>


I took a 150 to 12 in the summer just for fun. It took forever. I also
had a 152 up to FL130 on a very long x-country. Took a while to get
there but it wasnt so bad because it was (very) cold.


Bertie

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:

> I took a 150 to 12 in the summer just for fun. It took forever. I also
> had a 152 up to FL130 on a very long x-country. Took a while to get
> there but it wasnt so bad because it was (very) cold.

The patience of Job.

I used to take my 172RG up to FL140 to get over the towering CUs every summer.

It was like pushing a wet noodle uphill. Thank gawd for turbos.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
>
>> I took a 150 to 12 in the summer just for fun. It took forever. I
>> also had a 152 up to FL130 on a very long x-country. Took a while to
>> get there but it wasnt so bad because it was (very) cold.
>
> The patience of Job.
>
> I used to take my 172RG up to FL140 to get over the towering CUs every
> summer.
>
> It was like pushing a wet noodle uphill. Thank gawd for turbos.


Yeah, I was in a heavy 172 with three up on a 95deg humid day and we maxed
out at about 9.

Bertie

[gatt[_2_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message

> You might as well start thinking like a GOOD instructor right now :-)
>
> There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
> aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
> "fall under the rudder pedal or something".

Yeah, good point. I should mention "securing the cockpit for aerobatic
maneuvers" in the lesson plan/checklist.

Thanks, Dudley!

-c

[gatt[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
> Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. Some of
> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
> insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for safety in
> case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls under the rudder
> pedal or something)

>Here is my primary instructor and her buddy doing a 52.5 turn spin in
>a A152. They count off the altitude and the spins. You can see the
>altimeter unwinding, and it's about 195 feet per turn, as Kershner
>says in his Aerobatics book. You can almost make out the airspeed in
>some frames which looks like it might be 40 or 50:

Wow! It looks like they're losing ~ 1000 feet every ten seconds through
most of the spin.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsX2yGJ2Tn4

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

"gatt" > wrote in
:

>
> > wrote in message
> .
> ..
>> Cool! There's even chase-plane video of Cessnas doing spins. Some of
>> those guys are starting at 5,000 feet indicated or lower, which seems
>> insane. I'd think you'd want to start at 8,000 or 9,000 just for
>> safety in case things don't go as planned. (cockpit object falls
>> under the rudder pedal or something)
>
>>Here is my primary instructor and her buddy doing a 52.5 turn spin in
>>a A152. They count off the altitude and the spins. You can see the
>>altimeter unwinding, and it's about 195 feet per turn, as Kershner
>>says in his Aerobatics book. You can almost make out the airspeed in
>>some frames which looks like it might be 40 or 50:
>
> Wow! It looks like they're losing ~ 1000 feet every ten seconds
> through most of the spin.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsX2yGJ2Tn4
>

Oh yech. I got nauseous looking at that.

Bertie
>
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

gatt wrote:
>> There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
>> aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
>> "fall under the rudder pedal or something".
>
> Yeah, good point. I should mention "securing the cockpit for aerobatic
> maneuvers" in the lesson plan/checklist.


I watched a video once of some Blue Angels practicing when a team member had
planted a sandwich in the cockpit of one of the other planes. The pilot
executed a roll and you could plainly see the sandwich floating across the
cockpit. Pretty funny but I don't think I'd want that happening to me while
performing formation aerobatics.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Bertie the Bunyip[_22_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
:

> gatt wrote:
>>> There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
>>> aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready
>>> to "fall under the rudder pedal or something".
>>
>> Yeah, good point. I should mention "securing the cockpit for
>> aerobatic maneuvers" in the lesson plan/checklist.
>
>
> I watched a video once of some Blue Angels practicing when a team
> member had planted a sandwich in the cockpit of one of the other
> planes. The pilot executed a roll and you could plainly see the
> sandwich floating across the cockpit. Pretty funny but I don't think
> I'd want that happening to me while performing formation aerobatics.
>

It's a PITA. Coins, nutas and bolts, dirt from the carpets and your shoes.
There's a lot to be said for ding them in open cockpit airplanes, You can
clean them out first roll anyway!

Bertie

[FledgeIII]

On Jan 25, 11:03 am, "gatt" > wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> > You might as well start thinking like a GOOD instructor right now :-)
>
> > There should be NO "cockpit object" in the airplane with you in an
> > aircraft you have prepared properly for giving dual in spins,ready to
> > "fall under the rudder pedal or something".
>
> Yeah, good point. I should mention "securing the cockpit for aerobatic
> maneuvers" in the lesson plan/checklist.
>
> Thanks, Dudley!
>
> -c

Or *any* situation where positive/zero/negative G transitions are
possible. Watching maps, gloves, cushions, dead insects, etc.,
floating around the cockpit momentarily is certainly entertaining, but
getting an eye full of grit when you go positive on recovery is a real
PITA. Bin there, dun that. ;)

[Jim Macklin]

I recommend Kershner's instructor and aerobatic texts. Bill
Kershner probably did more spins in a C 150 teach than
anybody else.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Barry" > wrote in message
. ..
|> Getting ready to do spins for CFI training, which means
not only do I get to
| > perform them, I have to delivery a ground lesson on them
first as well, so
| > I'm gathering all the data I can find.
| >
| > Information I have says that in a developed spin most
light airplanes make a
| > complete turn and lose 500' about every 3 seconds.
| >
| > Does anybody have information to the contrary? I haven't
done spins since
| > 1990 so I don't remember the numbers exactly.
|
| Check the POH for the plane you're using. My POH for a
1980 C152 suggests
| allowing 1000 feet for one turn, 2000 feet for six turns,
and planning to
| recover above 4000 AGL. For other planes that are not
certified for spins, I
| agree with Jim that you shouldn't emphasize specific spin
characteristics.
|
| I think a great resource for spin instruction is the
"Understanding Spins"
| video made by Barry Schiff for the "Wonderful World of
Flying" series. I show
| this to student pilots and CFI candidates before doing
spin avoidance or spin
| lessons. I bought it a long time ago from Sporty's in VHS
as "Volume 1" of
| the "Proficient Flying" series, but it looks like now only
the full set of 3
| DVDs is available:
|
|
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=7313&DID=19
|
| Barry
|
|

[nobody]

Spins in a 152 are rather benign. Spinning left is ok, but spinning to
the right you have to old in the spin or she will pop out.

I could easily do 5 spins from 5,000' at night without in problems.
There fun and everyone should experience spins and to know what to do to
recover.

[gatt[_2_]]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message

>I recommend Kershner's instructor and aerobatic texts. Bill
> Kershner probably did more spins in a C 150 teach than
> anybody else.

I just read his spin chapter this weekend. I guess I know everything I
need to know about spins for now, but, yeow, that would be a lot of
information to throw at a PPL student before spin training. Useful
illustrations, though. 'I only read them-ar books fer the pitchers.'


-c

[Peter Dohm]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>
>>I recommend Kershner's instructor and aerobatic texts. Bill
>> Kershner probably did more spins in a C 150 teach than
>> anybody else.
>
> I just read his spin chapter this weekend. I guess I know everything I
> need to know about spins for now, but, yeow, that would be a lot of
> information to throw at a PPL student before spin training. Useful
> illustrations, though. 'I only read them-ar books fer the pitchers.'
>
>
> -c
>
I'm sorry to step back in and respond so late, but there is a point that
needs a little emphasis.

At the time that I demanded a little spin training, I had already read
"Stick and Rudder" plus a lot of Kershner's work. Even so, that first spin
entry seemed to take a couple of milliseconds--after which the ground seemed
to rotate so fast that I still am not sure which direction we were turning!
The point being that preparation on the ground is essential for
understanding; but hopelessly incomplete.

However, after a couple of more spins, the entry seemed quite lazy and the
rotation still was faster than a Merry-Go-Round; but certainly not exciting.
After a couple of spins after that, things had slowed down so much that
there were multiple opportunities to recover in the first 90 degrees--some
of them with less than 50 feet of altitude loss and very little change of
direction.

As discussed in another thread, I failed to take the spin training to the
next level--which is the entry from an accellerated stall. I have forgotten
exactly why, but vaguely recall that the instructor who was so confident in
teaching normal spins was not eager to have a student demonstrate
accellerated stalls--especially where that would lead to an accellerated
spin entry. To tell the truth, at the time, that seemed to be just a little
over the top to me as well; and absolutely no one that I knew advocated such
a thing. (As an aside, much as today, the FAA was on one of their big
safety pushes--and even some of the good ol' boys claimed that they never
flew any way other than "straight and level" when they were on the ground.)

The point of all this is that, when I return to flying, I will immediately
extend the stall and spin training into the accellerated entry area; because
that is where most of the stall-spin accidents really begin--and I fully
expect that things will seem to speed up again (quite radically) for the
first few times in each direction. After that, I will also do them
solo--because the airplane handles just a little differently when it has an
eccentric load.

Peter
Nearly as eccentric as the plane ;-)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in
:

>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>>
>>>I recommend Kershner's instructor and aerobatic texts. Bill
>>> Kershner probably did more spins in a C 150 teach than
>>> anybody else.
>>
>> I just read his spin chapter this weekend. I guess I know
>> everything I need to know about spins for now, but, yeow, that would
>> be a lot of information to throw at a PPL student before spin
>> training. Useful illustrations, though. 'I only read them-ar books
>> fer the pitchers.'
>>
>>
>> -c
>>
> I'm sorry to step back in and respond so late, but there is a point
> that needs a little emphasis.
>
> At the time that I demanded a little spin training, I had already read
> "Stick and Rudder" plus a lot of Kershner's work. Even so, that first
> spin entry seemed to take a couple of milliseconds--after which the
> ground seemed to rotate so fast that I still am not sure which
> direction we were turning! The point being that preparation on the
> ground is essential for understanding; but hopelessly incomplete.
>
> However, after a couple of more spins, the entry seemed quite lazy and
> the rotation still was faster than a Merry-Go-Round; but certainly not
> exciting. After a couple of spins after that, things had slowed down
> so much that there were multiple opportunities to recover in the first
> 90 degrees--some of them with less than 50 feet of altitude loss and
> very little change of direction.
>
> As discussed in another thread, I failed to take the spin training to
> the next level--which is the entry from an accellerated stall. I have
> forgotten exactly why, but vaguely recall that the instructor who was
> so confident in teaching normal spins was not eager to have a student
> demonstrate accellerated stalls--especially where that would lead to
> an accellerated spin entry. To tell the truth, at the time, that
> seemed to be just a little over the top to me as well; and absolutely
> no one that I knew advocated such a thing. (As an aside, much as
> today, the FAA was on one of their big safety pushes--and even some of
> the good ol' boys claimed that they never flew any way other than
> "straight and level" when they were on the ground.)
>
> The point of all this is that, when I return to flying, I will
> immediately extend the stall and spin training into the accellerated
> entry area; because that is where most of the stall-spin accidents
> really begin--and I fully expect that things will seem to speed up
> again (quite radically) for the first few times in each direction.
> After that, I will also do them solo--because the airplane handles
> just a little differently when it has an eccentric load.
>
>

Well, I self taught the accelerated ones sometime shortly after getting
my private. They're no big deal, its the stall and entry itself that's
of interest , of course, as I'm sure you already know. the break is
usualy sharper and rotation begins with a bit more enrgy, depending on
how energetically you are manuevering when the stall occurs. Well worth
doing.
There are a number of points where a spin is likely during
aerobatics.Around the top of a loop, botched hammerhead and botched
immelman being three prime candidates. No biggy any of them and they can
be stopped before they start if you can learn to read the wing.


Bertie
>
>

[Peter Dohm]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "gatt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>I recommend Kershner's instructor and aerobatic texts. Bill
>>>> Kershner probably did more spins in a C 150 teach than
>>>> anybody else.
>>>
>>> I just read his spin chapter this weekend. I guess I know
>>> everything I need to know about spins for now, but, yeow, that would
>>> be a lot of information to throw at a PPL student before spin
>>> training. Useful illustrations, though. 'I only read them-ar books
>>> fer the pitchers.'
>>>
>>>
>>> -c
>>>
>> I'm sorry to step back in and respond so late, but there is a point
>> that needs a little emphasis.
>>
>> At the time that I demanded a little spin training, I had already read
>> "Stick and Rudder" plus a lot of Kershner's work. Even so, that first
>> spin entry seemed to take a couple of milliseconds--after which the
>> ground seemed to rotate so fast that I still am not sure which
>> direction we were turning! The point being that preparation on the
>> ground is essential for understanding; but hopelessly incomplete.
>>
>> However, after a couple of more spins, the entry seemed quite lazy and
>> the rotation still was faster than a Merry-Go-Round; but certainly not
>> exciting. After a couple of spins after that, things had slowed down
>> so much that there were multiple opportunities to recover in the first
>> 90 degrees--some of them with less than 50 feet of altitude loss and
>> very little change of direction.
>>
>> As discussed in another thread, I failed to take the spin training to
>> the next level--which is the entry from an accellerated stall. I have
>> forgotten exactly why, but vaguely recall that the instructor who was
>> so confident in teaching normal spins was not eager to have a student
>> demonstrate accellerated stalls--especially where that would lead to
>> an accellerated spin entry. To tell the truth, at the time, that
>> seemed to be just a little over the top to me as well; and absolutely
>> no one that I knew advocated such a thing. (As an aside, much as
>> today, the FAA was on one of their big safety pushes--and even some of
>> the good ol' boys claimed that they never flew any way other than
>> "straight and level" when they were on the ground.)
>>
>> The point of all this is that, when I return to flying, I will
>> immediately extend the stall and spin training into the accellerated
>> entry area; because that is where most of the stall-spin accidents
>> really begin--and I fully expect that things will seem to speed up
>> again (quite radically) for the first few times in each direction.
>> After that, I will also do them solo--because the airplane handles
>> just a little differently when it has an eccentric load.
>>
>>
>
> Well, I self taught the accelerated ones sometime shortly after getting
> my private. They're no big deal, its the stall and entry itself that's
> of interest , of course, as I'm sure you already know. the break is
> usualy sharper and rotation begins with a bit more enrgy, depending on
> how energetically you are manuevering when the stall occurs. Well worth
> doing.
> There are a number of points where a spin is likely during
> aerobatics.Around the top of a loop, botched hammerhead and botched
> immelman being three prime candidates. No biggy any of them and they can
> be stopped before they start if you can learn to read the wing.
>
>
> Bertie
>>
>>
>
That's pretty much what I expect, and well worth practicing ASAP at a safe
altitude.

Peter