"Outlandings" discussion

[[email protected]]

So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
flight into an airport. I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble? Now I
know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
(http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).

Bob
Waiting on the wave!

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
> airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
> flight into an airport.

Mentally, I approach every landing made away from my runway of takeoff
as an off-field landing, whether made at an airport or not....run
through the same checklist w. the same rigor, etc.
- - - - - -

I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
> a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
> outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble?
Not - IMHO - if done per above. True, paved-airport landings don't
address the off-field surface issue(s), but I'm aware of at least one
broken G-103 done at a non-home-airport landing...and LOTS of landing
lights hit over the years. A paved-airport landing has all of the same
OFL landing risks save two: 1) known good surface, and 2) generally
decent approaches.
- - - - - -

Now I
> know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
> established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
> rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
> Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
> Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
> (http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).
FWIW, my OFL checklist is S-O-A-R: Surface (Priority 1, 2 or 3) -
Obstructions (on said surface) - Approach (obstructions on...) -
Rectangle (as in, make your final approach a complete rectangle...for a
host of inter-related reasons).

Haven't broken anything yet...

Regards,
Bob - cowardly/careful/chicken - W.

[nimbusgb]

On 27 Jan, 17:00, Bob Whelan > wrote:
> wrote:
> > So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
> > airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
> > flight into an airport.
>
> Mentally, I approach every landing made away from my runway of takeoff
> as an off-field landing, whether made at an airport or not....run
> through the same checklist w. the same rigor, etc.
> - - - - - -
>
> I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend> a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
> > outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble?
>
> Not - IMHO - if done per above. True, paved-airport landings don't
> address the off-field surface issue(s), but I'm aware of at least one
> broken G-103 done at a non-home-airport landing...and LOTS of landing
> lights hit over the years. A paved-airport landing has all of the same
> OFL landing risks save two: 1) known good surface, and 2) generally
> decent approaches.
> - - - - - -
>

A landing at a strange airfield is just that! Any resemblance to an
'outlanding' is nothing more than coincidental!
If you are flying 'airfield' to 'airfield' you know that there is
going to be a runway and decent approaches you dont have to worry
about things like ........

Field selection, orientation, slope, surface type, crops and height of
crop, livestock in the field and yes approaches. Also it may not be
big enough so now what! Options and a 'plan B'

Then there's post landing safety, what happens if you stuff it into an
unseen obstruction in a remote field, will someone find you and/or the
wreckage. Communications? There may be no one about for miles and the
cell phone coverage could be lousy. Security, what happens to your
ship when you walk out?

How do you get the ship out? Access for car and trailer. Do the crew
even know where you are?

Your own well being? I have been in fields for up to 6 hours without a
roll of toilet paper - no problem at an airfield but it nearly cost me
a sectional :)
Water? Shelter? What about protection for self and ship from the hail
or electrical storm that was about to wash you out of the sky?

Ok so a lot of this is not a problem in the UK where the nearest
village is usually no more than a couple of miles away but in some
places I have flown they are very real considerations.

The pilot stress level are considerably more going into a 'field'!

[[email protected]]

Bob,

Personally, I call landing at any place other than home-base a
landout, or off-field landing, or outlanding. It can be another
airport, or a field. My post-flight and in-flight preparation is the
same for all landings regardless of whether they are at home, or
somewhere else. By the way, always make every landing an accuracy
touchdown and accuracy stop.

Years ago, an instructor told me to make my first landout at a
familiar airport away from home. This would teach me many lessons.
Today as an instructor, I advocate the same thing. If one chooses to
do this, they will learn more than any classroom course can teach, and
learn it safely.

You should prepare for this by talking with positive and experienced
members in your club. Fact is that someone is going to have to
retrieve you. Enters a lesson: Buy them a nice steak dinner. Perhaps
you will plan an aero retrieve, or automobile retrieve. Enters another
lesson: Leave your car and trailer in combat readiness, for doing so
will make you a more desirable member to retrieve.

<< Bob wrote: Is this a recipe for trouble? >>

No, with preparation and discussion, an intentional first landout is a
safe maneuver.

New pilots have a natural and understandable fear to try cross-country
in a glider. Overcoming concerns of landing out is probably the
biggest reason some pilots never leave gliding range from home.
Practicing a landout under controlled conditions is superior to doing
your first one unplanned. As advised to me, my first landout was
intentional; I learned so many big lessons and little lissons (like
making sure my cell phone battery was charged, that I had a few
quarters for a pay phone, that I knew about landing lights, that
Saturdays are better than Sundays, etc.). My second landout was every
challenge imaginable all in one: rolling hills all around, fences,
small field, horses, 105 degree dry outside air temperature, thermal
on short-short final, downward sloping landing spot, only one head-
size rock in the entire beautiful field (which I avoided by one foot)
etc.

Thank goodness I already had a practice landout under my belt.

Raul Boerner
DM

[[email protected]]

On Jan 27, 9:07 am, " >
wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding?

Whenever I have to start the motor ;-)

....Before which I've already planned an outlanding and started the
pattern, just in case...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

nimbusgb wrote:

<Some intervening questions/comments snipped...>
>
> A landing at a strange airfield is just that! Any resemblance to an
> 'outlanding' is nothing more than coincidental!
> If you are flying 'airfield' to 'airfield' you know that there is
> going to be a runway and decent approaches you dont have to worry
> about things like ........
>
> Field selection, orientation, slope, surface type, crops and height of
> crop, livestock in the field and yes approaches. Also it may not be
> big enough so now what! Options and a 'plan B'

One's OFL options obviously vary by locale. The closest I've come to
post-landing hypothermia was on a paved airport, in July, w. a
dust-blowing wind at sunset. Rather than use my cockpit, an unlocked
fuel truck was my chosen windbreak. No traffic (air or ground) at the
field for hours...until the local constabulary arrived as my crew and I
were struggling to remove wings in 35+ knot winds. (He didn't help.)

My point was/is that - riskwise - landouts at airports - at least in the
western U.S. - are really not very far from landouts in fields, and to
assume otherwise is to blandly risk bitter disappointment, and perhaps
an unnecessarily broken glider.

For the record, the worst crosswind I've ever had to deal with was on a
paved runway. Sometimes an OFL may be the discretion part of valor.

We're in complete agreement that one should always have a Plan B (and C
& D under development) until the final field is selected.
- - - - - -
>
> Then there's post landing safety, what happens if you stuff it into an
> unseen obstruction in a remote field, will someone find you and/or the
> wreckage. Communications? There may be no one about for miles and the
> cell phone coverage could be lousy. Security, what happens to your
> ship when you walk out?
>
> How do you get the ship out? Access for car and trailer. Do the crew
> even know where you are?
>
> Your own well being? I have been in fields for up to 6 hours without a
> roll of toilet paper - no problem at an airfield but it nearly cost me
> a sectional :)
> Water? Shelter? What about protection for self and ship from the hail
> or electrical storm that was about to wash you out of the sky?
>
> Ok so a lot of this is not a problem in the UK where the nearest
> village is usually no more than a couple of miles away but in some
> places I have flown they are very real considerations.

Indeed, such considerations are very real in much of the world where I
regularly soar. That noted, I stand by my previous allegation(s).
Maybe one day I'll even purchase a cell phone.

I - rightly or wrongly - assume every glider pilot is prepared in some
measure for post-landing ground conditions short of a life-threatening
emergency. (I'd argue it's impossible to prepare for every emergency,
and any approach reasonable to the PIC is fine w. me [and my
wife]...even if it proves insufficient. No one forces us into our
cockpits, after all. Further, most beginners aren't soaring during
conditions conducive to routinely beyond-the-norm risk of life...at
least not in my US-centric experience.) In any event, I suspect we
agree the considerations you correctly mention are not really THE
primary ones of any lowish-experience soaring pilot concerned about the
mechanics of OFLs (in which way I took the OP's post).
- - - - - -
>
> The pilot stress level are considerably more going into a 'field'!

Maybe I'm abbie-normal, but I consider strange-airport landings not much
less stressful than OFL's...and in (say) the agricultural bits of the
Texas panhandle typically *more* so. In any event, I'm not a fan of
suggesting to lowish-time OFL-wannabes that airport-landings can be
approached with the same casual comfort factor their home-airport
landings are. Just me, perhaps...

Regards,
Bob - unabashed (>20 OFLs') weenie - W.

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 06:07:16 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:

>So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
>airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"?

The Freanch have a precise definition of an outlanding:
In French making an outlanding is called "aller aux vaches", "going to
the cows".

Since cows don't tend to on airfields...


Bye
Andreas

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 27, 7:07*am, " >
wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding?

I log a "landout' any time I fail to land back at my point of takeoff,
or at my goal on rare straight out flights. I log off airport
landings separately as a subset of landouts. In my book every off
airport landing is a landout but the converse is not true.

I also keep track of landouts more than 50NM from point of departure.
FAA seems to attach more value to those than completed flights and
they saved me a bunch of money for my airplane commercial.

More than once I have arrived at an airport and elected to land in an
adjacent field because I thought it was safer.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Jan 27, 8:07*am, " >
wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding? \

To me an outlanding is a landing where no one has landed an aircraft
before. If it's an airport than it's not an off airport landing
(which is what "outlanding" means to me). Landing at another airport
is no big deal unless it's some rarely used dirt strip with no known
characteristics or facilities and no sane pilot has landed there in
years and years. We don't have many of those in my usual terratory,
the midwest. Off airport landing causes the original Star Trek theme
to start playing in my head on final approach, "to boldly go where no
one has gone before". Once down it's up to me to make tie downs,
determine location and access, and deal with onlookers and crew. It's
an entirely different experience than landing at an airport. In
training I consider landing away at another airport just about useless
in preparing a student for "off airport" landing. Knowing it's an
airport eliminates a lot of doubt and stress. Once a student lands at
an unprepared field selected "on the fly" they know they are truly
ready to take on the challenge of cross country soaring.

MM

[mattm]

On Jan 27, 9:07 am, " >
wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
> airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
> flight into an airport. I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
> a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
> outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble? Now I
> know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
> established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
> rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
> Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
> Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
> (http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).
>
> Bob
> Waiting on the wave!

On a somewhat related note: the SSA contest application form
asks how many outlandings the pilot has done. Is this asking
for actual "non-airport" fields landed in, or airports other than
the intended destination?

I have to add that I know of several landouts by friends last year.
The only two that resulted in damaged gliders were both at
airports marked on the charts (one was being redeveloped for
housing, and the other had not been mowed all summer).

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 27, 7:22*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> Since cows don't tend to on airfields...

In my many landouts only 2 had encounters with cows. Both were on
prepared runways and one was at a fenced municipal airport. At
Muleshoe near Littlefield I had pushed the glider to the ramp (apron)
and spent the next hour trying to keep a large herd of cows that
appeared from behind a hangar from approaching the glider. At a ranch
strip NW of Uvalde a very pregnant cow took a liking to the glider,
shredded the canopy cover, bent the TE probe, and did its best to get
in the way while we derigged. It's hard to argue with a large bovine
when you have a wing root in both hands. I don't know if is
significant that both these contests were in Texas.

To the OP. It may not matter what you call your landings, but if your
buddies all got home and are drinking beer and you call for a retieve,
I suspect they'll all think you landed out. And if you are in a
contest, and you only get distance points, the other contestants will
also think you landed out. (US perspective, YMMV)

Andy

[kirk.stant]

Andy hit the nail on the head: If your buds drink all your beer and
you have to buy dinner, it's a landout!

Here in Illinois where I fly, you have to try pretty hard (in a glass
ship) to land off-field; there's an airport just about every 15
miles. Which makes it fun to push just that extra mile late in the
day, knowing you can get a short aero-retrieve if you pooch your final
glide.

And, while I have no hesitation to land at a strange airport, I am
more and more reluctant to risk my ship in an off field landing during
non-contest flights - it's just too easy to keep a good airport option
open all the time (really easy with a good PDA moving map).

Of course, this does require some homework, making sure you know where
all the good landing strips/airfields are located in your area - just
because they are on a sectional or database doesn't mean they really
exist!

Contests, naturally, may require a slightly higher level of risk - but
you can't win if your ship is damaged, can you?

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

I'm with Andy & Kirk - if I don't make it back to my home field and my
beer cooler it's an outlanding. I have also landed in easy fields and
at difficult narrow strips and don't believe you should categorize one
as necessarily easier than the other.

Maybe it's no coincidence that the three of us have all flown a lot in
Arizona and the southwest USA where we have some really tricky strips.

Mike

[Rick Culbertson]

On Jan 28, 2:38*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> I'm with Andy & Kirk - if I don't make it back to my home field and my
> beer cooler it's an outlanding. *I have also landed in easy fields and
> at difficult narrow strips and don't believe you should categorize one
> as necessarily easier than the other.
>
> Maybe it's no coincidence that the three of us have all flown a lot in
> Arizona and the southwest USA where we have some really tricky strips.
>
> Mike

Yep, I agree, if you're buying the beer etc. it's an "Official
Landout" and I agree the SW strips can be sporty

2007 was a banner year for me with 7 landouts, a personal best, I even
had three in a row, a "hat trick" so I'm told.

2 - At a private sectional noted dirt AP, long strip but cut into the
side of a sizable hill with some pine trees & cross winds to be aware
of. W/ one aero retrieve and one call your buddies / beer retrieve.
About 17 miles from my home AP.
2 - At a sloping farmers field about 12 miles from my Home AP, beer
etc. retrieve.
1 - At a new but previously unknown until I was 1500 over it grass/
dirt strip, but entertaining with a tree on one side in the middle,
irrigation piping along the other side, yes to miss the tree I had to
put my wing over the irrigation pipe and just to keep it interesting
an active tractor blocking one end. The very friendly owner flew me
back to my AP in his plane so I could PU my Truck and self retrieve.
Beers all around! 25 miles from my home AP.
1 - At a sloping grass field sandwiched between a T-storm out flow
and class B, with surface wind 25kts & gusting, 25 miles from my home
AP, no damage to my ship but a very tough day for many.
1 - On a dirt road, that once was also used as a private strip and
noted on the local TP list as such, but it had a few steel posts to
avoid, so good thing I always go for the short roll. This was after
passing on another private strip noted on the TP list as a private
strip possibility but found to have hazards in the middle of the
strip. About 50 miles from my home AP.

All of the above landing locations in my opinion contained the
standard risks of an off airport landing, so I'll count them all as
adding seven more to my next contest entry questionair. No damage to
my ship in any of the above noted landouts but the potential is always
in you rmind. If you're lucky enough to be setting it down on a Big ol
Asphalt 100' wide with a 5,000' runway then it's not a true off
airport landing, but if it's not your home AP then your still buying
the beer etc. so...

21
Colorado

[[email protected]]

On Jan 27, 7:07*am, " >
wrote:
> So, what do you call an outlanding?

Great discussion on this topic. Last year at Region 9 Parowan, the
attending ground crews (SCUM) spontaneously coined a new objective for
their racers on or about the third day of the contest. The goal was to
"land in". That says it all to me. Everything else is a landout.

Horst
L33

[mattm]

On Jan 28, 10:32 pm, wrote:
> On Jan 27, 7:07 am, " >
> wrote:
>
> > So, what do you call an outlanding?
>
> Great discussion on this topic. Last year at Region 9 Parowan, the
> attending ground crews (SCUM) spontaneously coined a new objective for
> their racers on or about the third day of the contest. The goal was to
> "land in". That says it all to me. Everything else is a landout.
>
> Horst
> L33

How about this one: day 2 at Perry last year. 2 turnpoints in
opposite directions
from the home field. I never could find lift beyond Perry on the way
to turnpoint 2
and wound up landing in front of my trailer. Only distance points as
a result.

[[email protected]]

Well I just like to keep my trailer excersized. Ive flown small
triangles and came back home. It was cool but sort of boring in its
own way. Im working on getting the CAP to be my crew for at least
some flights this summer. that should be cool! Might have to add a
tent to my landout kit! :D

I have landed at a few airports and I guess I wouldnt technically
consider them landouts from my perspective but they certainly are from
the crews perspective. Short wings are good for missing the runway
lights

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

wrote:
> Well I just like to keep my trailer excersized. Ive flown small
> triangles and came back home. It was cool but sort of boring in its
> own way. Im working on getting the CAP to be my crew for at least
> some flights this summer. that should be cool! Might have to add a
> tent to my landout kit! :D
>
Why would a Civil Aviation Publication require a tent?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[jcarlyle]

It's Shaw's "two countries divided by a common language" again,
Martin. In aviation parlance over here, CAP means Civil Air Patrol,
the guys who go out searching for overdue pilots.

It's easy to get confused. A few weeks ago, you started a post with
"snap". I couldn't find anything in your post that indicated something
was broken, but then an English friend explained the game you were
referring to. Another confusing point was a reference to Noddy in
another posting - Wikipedia explained that over here we'd use Mickey
Mouse. Finally, there's that Rube Goldberg/Heath Robinson thing...

English as she are spoke...

-John


On Jan 29, 4:35 pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Well I just like to keep my trailer excersized. Ive flown small
> > triangles and came back home. It was cool but sort of boring in its
> > own way. Im working on getting the CAP to be my crew for at least
> > some flights this summer. that should be cool! Might have to add a
> > tent to my landout kit! :D
>
> Why would a Civil Aviation Publication require a tent?
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 29, 4:58 pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> It's Shaw's "two countries divided by a common language" again,

Sometimes ascribed to Wilde.


> It's easy to get confused. A few weeks ago, you started a post with
> "snap". I couldn't find anything in your post that indicated something
> was broken, but then an English friend explained the game you were
> referring to. Another confusing point was a reference to Noddy in
> another posting - Wikipedia explained that over here we'd use Mickey
> Mouse. Finally, there's that Rube Goldberg/Heath Robinson thing...
>
> English as she are spoke...
>

If you think Noddy is a tough one, try explaining the cultural
significance of Noddy's friend the Golliwog to an American.

Mike

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

> If you think Noddy is a tough one, try explaining the cultural
> significance of Noddy's friend the Golliwog to an American.
>
> Mike
>

Or the perennial eraser/rubber confusion, linked to the Australian usage
of Durex.

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

jcarlyle wrote:
> It's Shaw's "two countries divided by a common language" again,
> Martin. In aviation parlance over here, CAP means Civil Air Patrol,
> the guys who go out searching for overdue pilots.
>
Gottit - I thought forgot the US aviation meaning of the TLA, couldn't
work it out, and thought this must be some new-fangled equivalent of WAG
and that Mr. Cherokee wanted to combine retrieval with a camping trip.
Hence the rather lame attempt at a joke.

> It's easy to get confused. A few weeks ago, you started a post with
> "snap".
>
I thought snap was a game that was played throughout the card-playing
world. Rather like Monopoly and the board-game world.

What is the US English equivalent of "Snap!"? I can't think of one
apart from "Right!".

> Another confusing point was a reference to Noddy in
> another posting - Wikipedia explained that over here we'd use Mickey
> Mouse. Finally, there's that Rube Goldberg/Heath Robinson thing...
>
Funny how the same ideas can have two completely different names. Still,
at least Murphy is known everywhere. Or does he have different names in
other languages?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Shawn[_5_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> jcarlyle wrote:
>> It's Shaw's "two countries divided by a common language" again,
>> Martin. In aviation parlance over here, CAP means Civil Air Patrol,
>> the guys who go out searching for overdue pilots.
>>
> Gottit - I thought forgot the US aviation meaning of the TLA, couldn't
> work it out, and thought this must be some new-fangled equivalent of WAG
> and that Mr. Cherokee wanted to combine retrieval with a camping trip.
> Hence the rather lame attempt at a joke.
>
>> It's easy to get confused. A few weeks ago, you started a post with
>> "snap".
> >
> I thought snap was a game that was played throughout the card-playing
> world. Rather like Monopoly and the board-game world.
>
> What is the US English equivalent of "Snap!"? I can't think of one
> apart from "Right!".
>
> > Another confusing point was a reference to Noddy in
>> another posting - Wikipedia explained that over here we'd use Mickey
>> Mouse. Finally, there's that Rube Goldberg/Heath Robinson thing...
>>
> Funny how the same ideas can have two completely different names. Still,
> at least Murphy is known everywhere. Or does he have different names in
> other languages?

They make beds, right? ;-)



Shawn

[jcarlyle]

Hi, Martin,

> I thought snap was a game that was played throughout the card-playing
> world. Rather like Monopoly and the board-game world.

From what my friend told me, I don't believe there's any equivalent
game in the US.

> What is the US English equivalent of "Snap!"? I can't think of one
> apart from "Right!".

How about: Me, too! Ditto! Same here!

> Funny how the same ideas can have two completely different names. Still,
> at least Murphy is known everywhere. Or does he have different names in
> other languages?

I think Murphy is world-wide. Here's an interesting site
http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-true.html on Murphy, who
appears to be a modern incarnation of Sod's Law.

-John

[Nyal Williams]

Maybe snap and war are similar. Throw down cards rapidly
in turn and if two in a row have the same number, the
first person to shout 'War' and grab it wins the pile.
Object is to claim all the cards.

At 23:06 30 January 2008, Jcarlyle wrote:
>Hi, Martin,
>
>> I thought snap was a game that was played throughout
>>the card-playing
>> world. Rather like Monopoly and the board-game world.
>
>From what my friend told me, I don't believe there's
>any equivalent
>game in the US.
>
>> What is the US English equivalent of 'Snap!'? I can't
>>think of one
>> apart from 'Right!'.
>
>How about: Me, too! Ditto! Same here!
>
>> Funny how the same ideas can have two completely different
>>names. Still,
>> at least Murphy is known everywhere. Or does he have
>>different names in
>> other languages?
>
>I think Murphy is world-wide. Here's an interesting
>site
>http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-true.html
>on Murphy, who
>appears to be a modern incarnation of Sod's Law.
>
>-John
>

[Papa3]

On Jan 30, 10:29*am, Chris Reed > wrote:
> > If you think Noddy is a tough one, try explaining the cultural
> > significance of Noddy's friend the Golliwog to an American.
>
> > Mike
>
> Or the perennial eraser/rubber confusion, linked to the Australian usage
> of Durex.

True story. I worked as an assitant tennis pro at a posh country
club in the US. New tennis pro comes on board - he's an Aussie. His
wife Ellie keeps the shop.

We walk into the main clubhouse one day and he says "Hang on a minute,
I need to get some supplies for the office." Walks on over to the
main reception area where some of the blue hairs are milling about
waiting for the grill to open for the early bird special. "Hey Judy
(receptionist), I need a big box of rubbers. Ellie and I are going
through them like wild fire -she make a lot of mistakes."

- Blue hairs swallowed their dentures.
- Judy turned a shade of crimson.
- I peed my pants.

25 years later, we still talk about that one.

[Eric Greenwell]

mattm wrote:

> I have to add that I know of several landouts by friends last year.
> The only two that resulted in damaged gliders were both at
> airports marked on the charts (one was being redeveloped for
> housing, and the other had not been mowed all summer).

Personally, a "landout" is a field landing, airports are maintained
runways usually intended for public use (though you can have private
airports), airstrip usually means a private grass or dirt strip that may
or may not be well maintained (but you can have public airstrips, like
state emergency fields). Based on my definitions, your friends did not
land at "airports" (the "port" part suggests to me that planes come and
go with some regularity and dependability), but might have qualified for
"landout" status from your description of the fields.

If you land at a towered airport with a 7000 foot long, 100 foot wide
runway, it is definitely NOT a landout! Call it a "landaway", say you
"didn't make it back", but save "landout" for when you have to be picked
out of a farmers field!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
> Well I just like to keep my trailer excersized. Ive flown small
> triangles and came back home. It was cool but sort of boring in its
> own way. Im working on getting the CAP to be my crew for at least
> some flights this summer. that should be cool! Might have to add a
> tent to my landout kit! :D
>
> I have landed at a few airports and I guess I wouldnt technically
> consider them landouts from my perspective but they certainly are from
> the crews perspective.

From the crew's perspective, that should be considered a retrieve, not
a landout. If it were REALLY a landout, they would insist on a LOT more
pizza and beer than a simple retrieve from an airport. Not as much pizza
and beer as if you were flying an ASW 17, of course, but definitely more
than for an airport landing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[kirk.stant]

> Personally, a "landout" is a field landing, airports are maintained
> runways usually intended for public use (though you can have private
> airports), airstrip usually means a private grass or dirt strip that may
> or may not be well maintained (but you can have public airstrips, like
> state emergency fields). Based on my definitions, your friends did not
> land at "airports" (the "port" part suggests to me that planes come and
> go with some regularity and dependability), but might have qualified for
> "landout" status from your description of the fields.
>
> If you land at a towered airport with a 7000 foot long, 100 foot wide
> runway, it is definitely NOT a landout! Call it a "landaway", say you
> "didn't make it back", but save "landout" for when you have to be picked
> out of a farmers field!

Oh yeah? I bet if you landed at ATL (or Edwards AFB) in a glider, it
would be just as exciting as any "field landing"!

To me, any landing that isn't where you wanted to land before takeoff
is a landout. It could (and usually is, in modern glass) be at an
airfield, or it could be an off field landing in a meadow. The
criteria is that I was forced to land by the weather (or other
external factors), not at my predetermined destination.

In southern Illinois where I've been flying lately, there are nice
paved or grass, public or private airfields/airstrips everywhere - it
just doesn't make sense to risk damage by not using them if at all
possible. And a marginal final glide into a private airstrip 5 miles
short of home is a landout!

In Arizona, where I've done a bit of XC, you are foolish to not
landout on an airfield or ranch strip - there often isn't any
alternative. An off field landing in the desert is often accompanied
by one very broken glider...

Seems childish to insist that you have to pass up smarter options in
order to claim a landout! And let's face it, it's an ego thing - "if
you aren't landing out, you aren't trying", etc...

Kirk
66

[rlovinggood]

What's the "usual" cost to the pilot for a retrieval from an land out?

I know it depends on lots of things.

But let's say he lands at an airfield and opts for the trailer rather
than the towplane. Does the pilot owe full dinner? Light hors
d'oeuvres? One beer? A six pack? A promise to wax the retrieval
person's wings? If only one person is needed, but more come, does the
pilot have to "pay" the entire posse?

Now, if the pilot lands out in a pasture out in the boonies and the
gate is locked and nobody has a "master key" (aka bolt cutters) and
several people have to lift the parts over the fence, does the pilot
pay the whole retrieval crew? What "fee?"

Curious (and bored)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Tom Gardner]

On Feb 22, 1:03 am, rlovinggood > wrote:
> What's the "usual" cost to the pilot for a retrieval from an land out?
>
> I know it depends on lots of things.
>
> But let's say he lands at an airfield and opts for the trailer rather
> than the towplane. Does the pilot owe full dinner? Light hors
> d'oeuvres? One beer? A six pack? A promise to wax the retrieval
> person's wings? If only one person is needed, but more come, does the
> pilot have to "pay" the entire posse?
>
> Now, if the pilot lands out in a pasture out in the boonies and the
> gate is locked and nobody has a "master key" (aka bolt cutters) and
> several people have to lift the parts over the fence, does the pilot
> pay the whole retrieval crew? What "fee?"
>
> Curious (and bored)

Surely that's simple: you "pay" whatever is necessary to ensure they
will come and retrieve you next time.

[Sergio]

On Feb 22, 8:11*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Feb 22, 1:03 am, rlovinggood > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > What's the "usual" cost to the pilot for a retrieval from an land out?
>
> > I know it depends on lots of things.
>
> > But let's say he lands at an airfield and opts for the trailer rather
> > than the towplane. *Does the pilot owe full dinner? *Light hors
> > d'oeuvres? *One beer? *A six pack? *A promise to wax the retrieval
> > person's wings? *If only one person is needed, but more come, does the
> > pilot have to "pay" the entire posse?
>
> > Now, if the pilot lands out in a pasture out in the boonies and the
> > gate is locked and nobody has a "master key" (aka bolt cutters) and
> > several people have to lift the parts over the fence, does the pilot
> > pay the whole retrieval crew? *What "fee?"
>
> > Curious (and bored)
>
> Surely that's simple: you "pay" whatever is necessary to ensure they
> will come and retrieve you next time.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I got low in my motorglider, put the engine out and tryed to turn it
on, but nothing happened...
glided for about 10 km, found a pasture with many cows (aux vaches, as
french say)1 - 2 feet high grass, landed ok but ran over an invisible
drainage ditch which bent one of the wheels.As the trailer wouldn't go
into the pasture, the glider had to be disassembled and towed by the
farmer's pickup by 2 km. We were served cokes and pizza at the owners
house.

If want to check the clip, go to

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ylrc6W0iZ3c

Sergio