are wooden gliders worthwhile building ?

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

serious question.
in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
any wooden gliders actually worth building ?

if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
to fly.

something a dad could spring on the kid.

Stealth Pilot

[Bill Daniels]

The problem with wood is that it changes shape with changes in humidity.
It's also heavier than composites or metal construction. But, one has to
admit, some very nice gliders have been built using wood.

There's one wood homebuilt that I've always admired - the Briglieb BG-12.
It's a very simple to build - well within the capabilities of the average
homebuilder. Almost all of them easily achieved 34:1. The 3-part wing was
a beast to assemble but the 2-part wing should be easy enough to rig with
some assembly aids.

I would also consider the Marske Pioneer II D. Although the wing is wood,
the rest is composite. It's a nice safe glider with reasonable performance.

Finally, don't build a glider just to own a glider - do it because you want
to build something and learn from the process. If you just want to own a
glider using some sweat equity, buy a first or second generation fiberglass
glider that needs refinishing. There can be some real value added in a good
refinish job.

Bill D


"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> Stealth Pilot

[Adam]

On Feb 4, 6:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> Stealth Pilot

This fellow thinks so!
http://members.aol.com/woodglider/mattart1.htm

http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/oshkosh03_3/0896.jpg

/Adam

[BB]

On Feb 4, 6:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> Stealth Pilot

In one word, no. If he wants to fly, and advance in the world of
soaring, get him a good club-class eligible fiberglass glider with a
well-engineered safety cockpit. I love the grandeur and history of
wooden gliders, I admire the courage and achievements of their pilots,
and I admire the skills of their homebuilders, but I would never send
my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
landing. Would you home-build him a wooden car?

If he wants to build, and to learn the skills thereof, send him to a
good repair shop or off to one of the German factories to learn modern
composite construction and repair technique.

If you want a project, for you to have fun building for several years
and then float around the airport on a Sunday afternoon....well,
that's a different story. Have fun! If not a homebuilt, consider
restoring an antique.

John Cochrane

[Adam]

Better link here:

http://members.aol.com/woodglider/matt.htm

/Adam

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

Well put.

Bert

"BB" > wrote in message
news:030e63d9-44dd-45c2-b215-
In one word, no. If he wants to fly, and advance in the world of
soaring, get him a good club-class eligible fiberglass glider with a
well-engineered safety cockpit. I love the grandeur and history of
wooden gliders, I admire the courage and achievements of their pilots,
and I admire the skills of their homebuilders, but I would never send
my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
landing. Would you home-build him a wooden car?

If he wants to build, and to learn the skills thereof, send him to a
good repair shop or off to one of the German factories to learn modern
composite construction and repair technique.

If you want a project, for you to have fun building for several years
and then float around the airport on a Sunday afternoon....well,
that's a different story. Have fun! If not a homebuilt, consider
restoring an antique.

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

>
> http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/oshkosh03_3/0896.jpg
>
> /Adam


Well thats cool. I never saw that photo and that's my glider! Cam
Martin brought me to Oshkosh to display and talk about the Woodstock.

To the original poster, the Woodstock is a very fine ship. Of all the
wood homebuilts it might not be the best performing in terms of L/D
but it is very well designed. I think that a lot that was learned
from the Cherokees, BGs, Terns, Dusters, that came before was applied
to the Woodstock. When Bob Wander wanted to build a wood glider he
chose the Woodstock after a lengthy study. The credientials of the
designers are impeccable. The performance may not be impressive on
paper but in the sky it never ceases to amaze me and anyone else
flying nearby. L/D isn't everything. Yes, it's very lightweight but
it has a fast wing and is very rugged. It will do much more than
simply float around the airport.

The Cherokee is also a neat machine. If you can find one that needs
rebuilding it's a very worthwhile project. Reference our own Cherokee
Kid, Tony Condon's many posts here (and at www.knighglider.com) about
the fun he's having with his. The Cherokee has unique but not
dangerous stall characteristics. Emphasis on training.

The BGs do perform well as Bill said but the flap-only aspect somewhat
complicates landings. Again, emphasis on training.

Cam Martin has had his Duster on the market and from what I gather
it's a great machine. He lets his son fly it.

The Miller Tern has tiny airbrakes which reportedly make approaches
challenging.

Other old wood would include the K6s and K8s (the 8 has steel tube
fuselage) Folka and Cobra, Austrias, Slingsbys... I know of a very
nice K6 looking for a home.

Whats great about the old wood is that you can get it cheap, it's
satisfying to restore, and they are fun to fly. The whole experiece
is living history. The downside is as Bill mentioned, crashworthyness
wasn't part of the design philosophy, and some of the homebuilts have
quirky characteristics. But if you find a good one, personally verify
the airworthyness and the training of whoever is going to fly it you
get some great soaring experiences for very little money.

Matt Michael
Ames Iowa

[raulb]

If you want to build a glider, sure. There is the BG-12B, BG-12/16
(same wing, diff. fuselage), Woodstock, and maybe the Duster (I don't
know if plans are still available for the Duster). Possibly others.

Having owned a BG-12B (2 piece wing), and own a Slingsby T-31, if
properly cared for there is nothing wrong with wooden gliders. Of
course that could be said about any glider made from any material.
Yet I did not build any of my gliders, I bought them many years
later. The trouble with homebuilding is that unless you have real
determination, it typically takes 6-8 years.

As to weight, the 50 ft span BG-12 (and 12/16) is heavy because it is
braced for 12 Gs and uses a solid wood spar. On mine, I estimated the
wings to weigh over 200 lbs each. The fuselage, on the other hand,
was light enough that with some effort, it could be picked-up by one
person. The glider weighed about 645 lbs total. This is not
necessarily true of other wooden gliders because the then high-
performance, all-wood 1934 Bowlus-duPont Albatross had a 62 ft wing
yet the whole shootin' match weighed less than 400 lbs!

Now, having said all of that, you will not get a wooden glider of any
current design to equal the performance of a fiberglass ship. The
BG-12 was one of the highest performance wooden gliders ever designed,
and mine was measured by Paul Bikle to be 31:1 (Briegleb claimed
35:1). Also, experience needs to be considered, my BG-12 was my first
glider but it may not be a great choice for beginners because it is
flapped and flaps tend to scare some people (I love flaps).

I would say that if you and/or your son want to build a glider,
building a wooden one is a good choice. Personally I love flying
wood. I think it was Gren Siebels who lamented when he bought his
first fiberglass glider that he missed the smells of his old wooden
one. Still, if your son only wants to fly (not build), and
specifically wants to fly wood, buy him an existing glider. The
BG-12, Woodstock, Duster, Austria, and Ka-6 are all excellent choices--
but the BG, Austria, and K-6 may not be good choices for beginners.

Otherwise, get him a Schweizer 1-26 to start with. An excellent first
glider!


On Feb 4, 4:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> Stealth Pilot

[Bill Daniels]

At least one BG-12 was built with two piece wing and spoilers (D model?).

Keep in mind that people who own gliders equipped with flaps for glide path
control like them and those who don't have little experience in them . It's
an urban myth that gliders with flaps are hard to land. The issue is that
there are no training gliders with flaps - you have to teach yourself in a
single seat glider or take a few lessons in a C-150.

Bill D


"raulb" > wrote in message
...
If you want to build a glider, sure. There is the BG-12B, BG-12/16
(same wing, diff. fuselage), Woodstock, and maybe the Duster (I don't
know if plans are still available for the Duster). Possibly others.

Having owned a BG-12B (2 piece wing), and own a Slingsby T-31, if
properly cared for there is nothing wrong with wooden gliders. Of
course that could be said about any glider made from any material.
Yet I did not build any of my gliders, I bought them many years
later. The trouble with homebuilding is that unless you have real
determination, it typically takes 6-8 years.

As to weight, the 50 ft span BG-12 (and 12/16) is heavy because it is
braced for 12 Gs and uses a solid wood spar. On mine, I estimated the
wings to weigh over 200 lbs each. The fuselage, on the other hand,
was light enough that with some effort, it could be picked-up by one
person. The glider weighed about 645 lbs total. This is not
necessarily true of other wooden gliders because the then high-
performance, all-wood 1934 Bowlus-duPont Albatross had a 62 ft wing
yet the whole shootin' match weighed less than 400 lbs!

Now, having said all of that, you will not get a wooden glider of any
current design to equal the performance of a fiberglass ship. The
BG-12 was one of the highest performance wooden gliders ever designed,
and mine was measured by Paul Bikle to be 31:1 (Briegleb claimed
35:1). Also, experience needs to be considered, my BG-12 was my first
glider but it may not be a great choice for beginners because it is
flapped and flaps tend to scare some people (I love flaps).

I would say that if you and/or your son want to build a glider,
building a wooden one is a good choice. Personally I love flying
wood. I think it was Gren Siebels who lamented when he bought his
first fiberglass glider that he missed the smells of his old wooden
one. Still, if your son only wants to fly (not build), and
specifically wants to fly wood, buy him an existing glider. The
BG-12, Woodstock, Duster, Austria, and Ka-6 are all excellent choices--
but the BG, Austria, and K-6 may not be good choices for beginners.

Otherwise, get him a Schweizer 1-26 to start with. An excellent first
glider!


On Feb 4, 4:16 am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> Stealth Pilot

[nimbusgb]

> > something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> > Stealth Pilot

Get him ( or her ) a 1st generation club class glass ship. It will
hold its value and provide a stepping stone into a hot ship if thats
theway he or she wants to go in the future.

[Cats]

On Feb 4, 12:16*pm, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> to fly.
>
> something a dad could spring on the kid.

How could a Dad spring something on the kid he's been working on for
months and months? :)

Since you say your son is on his way to a glider instructor's rating I
imagin he's got his own ideas about what he'd like to fly. How about
springing a surprise of some financial help to purchase wings of his
own choice?

[Nyal Williams]

Best idea yet!

I will never forget the long-term anguish of a couple
of two women who were piano teachers and whose husbands
surprised them with new grand pianos not of their choosing.
They could not express their HUGE disappointment and
their dismay at being stuck forever with an instrument
they didn't want. It lasted a lifetime. I had to
talk my own daughter out of doing this very thing for
her husband, a professional pianist.

Surprise him with the offer to help, but let him choose!

At 19:48 04 February 2008, Cats wrote:
>On Feb 4, 12:16=A0pm, Stealth Pilot
>wrote:
>> serious question.
>> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns
>>supreme are there
>> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>>
>> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors
>>rating, as mine is,
>> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth
>>building ?
>> something with reasonable performance that would be
>>a sheer pleasure
>> to fly.
>>
>> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
>How could a Dad spring something on the kid he's been
>working on for
>months and months? :)
>
>Since you say your son is on his way to a glider instructor's
>rating I
>imagin he's got his own ideas about what he'd like
>to fly. How about
>springing a surprise of some financial help to purchase
>wings of his
>own choice?
>
>

[JJ Sinclair]

On Feb 4, 7:47*am, BB > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 6:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
> wrote:
>
> > serious question.
> > in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> > any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> > if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> > is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> > something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> > to fly.
>
> > something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> > Stealth Pilot
>
> In one word, no. If he wants to fly, and advance in the world of
> soaring, get him a good club-class eligible fiberglass glider with a
> well-engineered safety cockpit. I love the grandeur and history of
> wooden gliders, I admire the courage and achievements of their pilots,
> and I admire the skills of their homebuilders, but I would never send
> my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
> landing. *Would you home-build him a wooden car?
>
> If he wants to build, and to learn the skills thereof, send him to a
> good repair shop or off to one of the German factories to learn modern
> composite construction and repair technique.
>
> If you want a project, for you to have fun building for several years
> and then float around the airport on a Sunday afternoon....well,
> that's a different story. Have fun! If not a homebuilt, consider
> restoring an antique.
>
> John Cochrane

Hey John,
I don't know if that's a complement or a put-down..................I
got all 3 diamonds in a wooden ship I built (Duster). I would have to
agree with you, though, but not because I believe wood is all that
much more dangerous. My reason to advise buying a club class machine
would be because there are builders and there are flyers and seldom do
you find them both together. Remembering the rhetoric from the '60's;
Wood is good!.........You can trust a tree!
JJ

[Mike the Strike]

If you bought him a car kit when he was learning to drive, I suppose a
glider kit might make some sense.

If he just wants to fly, help him buy a nice older glass ship - it'll
be cheaper and quicker, believe me.

Mike

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Feb 4, 7:47*am, BB > wrote:
> ...If he wants to build, and to learn the skills thereof, send him to a
> good repair shop or off to one of the German factories to learn modern
> composite construction and repair technique...

Sound advice. If he speaks German, that is.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Udo]

On Feb 4, 7:52*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 7:47*am, BB > wrote:
>
> > ...If he wants to build, and to learn the skills thereof, send him to a
> > good repair shop or off to one of the German factories to learn modern
> > composite construction and repair technique...
>
> Sound advice. If he speaks German, that is.
>
This would be one way of learning a second language.
The interest in a subject, in this case aviation, is a very good
motivator
and accelerates the learning curve dramatically.
Udo

[[email protected]]

Cant beat a good home built wood glider for good cheap fun.

But if you got a bunch of money laying around I see two options:

1) buy a nice fiberglass glider. Enjoyment will be had, cross country
flights made. Landouts will be rare.

2) Send me the money. Ill buy a fiberglass glider and send you the
Cherokee. You will have lots of fun. Landouts will be a joy. Cross
country flights will be made.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 4, 7:30*am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> The problem with wood is that it changes shape with changes in humidity.
> It's also heavier than composites or metal construction. *But, one has to
> admit, some very nice gliders have been built using wood.
>
> There's one wood homebuilt that I've always admired - the Briglieb BG-12.
> It's a very simple to build - well within the capabilities of the average
> homebuilder. *Almost all of them easily achieved 34:1. *The 3-part wing was
> a beast to assemble but the 2-part wing should be easy enough to rig with
> some assembly aids.
>
> I would also consider the Marske Pioneer II D. *Although the wing is wood,
> the rest is composite. *It's a nice safe glider with reasonable performance.
>
> Finally, don't build a glider just to own a glider - do it because you want
> to build something and learn from the process. *If you just want to own a
> glider using some sweat equity, buy a first or second generation fiberglass
> glider that needs refinishing. *There can be some real value added in a good
> refinish job.
>
> Bill D
>
> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > serious question.
> > in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> > any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>
> > if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
> > is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
> > something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
> > to fly.
>
> > something a dad could spring on the kid.
>
> > Stealth Pilot

Wasn't this accident a young man flying a BG-12 bought by his father.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X21782&ntsbno=LAX00LA312&akey=1

Infact looking at the NTSB this type has a lot of fatal's from
structural failure!!

Sobering thought when looking at old wooden / homebuilt gliders.

[Ian]

On 4 Feb, 15:47, BB > wrote:

> ... but I would never send
> my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
> landing.

I have never seen or heard of a wooden glider turn to splinters as a
result of a "rough landing". Can you give examples? I have seen the
result of a Pirat flying into a corrugated iron fence at about 40kt:
huge dent in the fence, broken canopy and squashed glider nose. The
pilot walked away and the glider flew again.

Ian

[Ian]

On 4 Feb, 12:16, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> serious question.
> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?

Building a wooden glider is hugely time consuming business, and while
the last designs were pretty good, making moulded wings is probably
beyond most amateur facilities. If you fancy working on a wooden
glider for your son to fly, what about restoring an SHK-1?

Ian

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

If you do that wth a Ka6, you won't walk away. In terms of shock absorption,
a wooden glider is the worst you can get.

Bert
"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 Feb, 15:47, BB > wrote:
>
>> ... but I would never send
>> my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
>> landing.
>
> I have never seen or heard of a wooden glider turn to splinters as a
> result of a "rough landing". Can you give examples? I have seen the
> result of a Pirat flying into a corrugated iron fence at about 40kt:
> huge dent in the fence, broken canopy and squashed glider nose. The
> pilot walked away and the glider flew again.
>
> Ian

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:44:02 -0800 (PST), Adam >
wrote:

>On Feb 4, 6:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
>wrote:
>> serious question.
>> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
>> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>>
>> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
>> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
>> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
>> to fly.
>>
>> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>>
>> Stealth Pilot
>
>This fellow thinks so!
>http://members.aol.com/woodglider/mattart1.htm
>
>http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/oshkosh03_3/0896.jpg
>
>/Adam

appreciate the photo!
the woodstock was/is a serious contender.
Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:39:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>
>>
>> http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/oshkosh03_3/0896.jpg
>>
>> /Adam
>
>
>Well thats cool. I never saw that photo and that's my glider! Cam
>Martin brought me to Oshkosh to display and talk about the Woodstock.
>
>To the original poster, the Woodstock is a very fine ship. Of all the
>wood homebuilts it might not be the best performing in terms of L/D
>but it is very well designed. I think that a lot that was learned
>from the Cherokees, BGs, Terns, Dusters, that came before was applied
>to the Woodstock. When Bob Wander wanted to build a wood glider he
>chose the Woodstock after a lengthy study. The credientials of the
>designers are impeccable. The performance may not be impressive on
>paper but in the sky it never ceases to amaze me and anyone else
>flying nearby. L/D isn't everything. Yes, it's very lightweight but
>it has a fast wing and is very rugged. It will do much more than
>simply float around the airport.
>

>
>Matt Michael
>Ames Iowa

matt
do you still fly your woodstock?
how robust has it proven to be over the years?
have you had anything that has broken or needed repairing?

I'm building a Druine Turbulent at present but it could very well be
the next aircraft I build.

yours is a georgeous aeroplane. far better I think than a classic
wooden boat.
Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:47:26 -0800 (PST), BB
> wrote:

>On Feb 4, 6:16*am, Stealth Pilot >
>wrote:
>> serious question.
>> in this day and age where the slippery glass reigns supreme are there
>> any wooden gliders actually worth building ?
>>
>> if your son was on the way to a glider instructors rating, as mine is,
>> is there a wooden glider design that would be worth building ?
>> something with reasonable performance that would be a sheer pleasure
>> to fly.
>>
>> something a dad could spring on the kid.
>>
>> Stealth Pilot
>
>In one word, no. If he wants to fly, and advance in the world of
>soaring, get him a good club-class eligible fiberglass glider with a
>well-engineered safety cockpit. I love the grandeur and history of
>wooden gliders, I admire the courage and achievements of their pilots,
>and I admire the skills of their homebuilders, but I would never send
>my son up in something that turns to splinters if he has a rough
>landing. Would you home-build him a wooden car?
>

no, he can and probably will buy the fibreglass ship himself.
I wanted something that was beautiful to look at and fun to fly. the
amazing thing in aviation is that if you can lay hands on the plans
you can build an exact replica of a classic design in modern
materials, and have it perform just like the original.

he is building a Corby CJ1 Starlet which is all wood and I'm
supporting him through the build.

build him a car - no
build him an aeroplane - yes.

Stealth Pilot

[[email protected]]

On Feb 5, 8:09*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:39:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>
> >>http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/oshkosh03_3/0896.jpg
>
> >> /Adam
>
> >Well thats cool. *I never saw that photo and that's my glider! *Cam
> >Martin brought me to Oshkosh to display and talk about the Woodstock.
>
> >To the original poster, the Woodstock is a very fine ship. *Of all the
> >wood homebuilts it might not be the best performing in terms of L/D
> >but it is very well designed. *I think that a lot that was learned
> >from the Cherokees, BGs, Terns, Dusters, that came before was applied
> >to the Woodstock. When Bob Wander wanted to build a wood glider he
> >chose the Woodstock after a lengthy study. *The credientials of the
> >designers are impeccable. The performance may not be impressive on
> >paper but in the sky it never ceases to amaze me and anyone else
> >flying nearby. *L/D isn't everything. *Yes, it's very lightweight but
> >it has a fast wing and is very rugged. *It will do much more than
> >simply float around the airport.
>
> >Matt Michael
> >Ames Iowa
>
> matt
> do you still fly your woodstock?
> how robust has it proven to be over the years?
> have you had anything that has broken or needed repairing?
>
> I'm building a Druine Turbulent at present but it could very well be
> the next aircraft I build.
>
> yours is a georgeous aeroplane. far better I think than a classic
> wooden boat.
> Stealth Pilot- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, it has a boatlike effect. I call it my sky kayak. I have not
flown it very often the last few years due to other commitments
instructing and power flying. 2 flights of note:

Ran wingtip to wingtip with a Folka 4 under a cloud street for about
25 miles late in the day. I went an extra few miles off the end of
the street and ended up scratching like mad while trying to limp
home. Just as I was at pattern altitude for a private strip I caught
the gust front from a minor rain storm that was approaching and
climbed continually for 15 miles arriving home at 9000agl. Spiriled
down, rolled out, and shoved it into the nearest hanger seconds before
the downpour. 10 minutes later there was a big double rainbow over the
hanger. At dinner I kept putting my fork down and saying, "I can't
believe I made it back!"

Last fall the Cherokee Kid (Tony) and I left on a marginal afternoon
headed down wind. He pushed a little too hard and landed out some 40
miles from home. I was orbiting above having managed to hang on to a
little bubble. My Folka pal was in his C140 and offered via radio to
come get me if I landed at the nearby airport. Tony on the other hand
was telling me I should land in the field next to him so we could hang
out and de-rig together. For about 20 minutes I couldn't make up my
mind. There was this nice big paved municipal airport 5 miles
downwind and I decided to land in a farm field! It was a great time
with 2 classic wood gliders, local farmers, sunset. Just the best
kind of time. See a photo here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/cherokee373Y/EndOfOctoberSoaring/photo#5126763186748116946

Nothing broken. It looks delicate but it's not. Comparing the
fuselage bulkeads to a K6 you will see that the Woodstock is
considerably more substantial. Jim Maupin and Irv Culver were really
sharp guys and they had already designed a lot of stuff prior. The
light weight makes rigging a dream. Even with the old pins and
safeties to fumble with for control hook-ups it still only takes 15
minutes to rig and you only need another person for 5 minutes. The
horizontal tail stays put which makes for a goofy trailer with
outrigger boxes for the tail. Also, the max weight is under 200 lbs
which eliminates a lot of pilots though the cockpit is not
outrageously tiny. The only tweeking I've done is re-rigging the
ailerons to compensate for a slight rolling tendancy. No big deal.
I'm hoping to complete a sport canopy for it which will make it look
totally vintage plus be fun to fly with of course. You are welcome to
come see mine anytime.

Matt

[Tim Mara]

The next time someone sneers at a wooden sailplane, remind them that it is made of a unidirectional reinforced laminated composite material consisting of micro-tubular fibres embedded in a long chain polymer matrix and having a near infinite fatigue life.

still pretty hard to beat a K6 or any number of these older wood ships as a starter ...... thouse of you who have not ever had an opprtunity to fly some of these classics are missing a great deal of what we do and were we came from..
tim

Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message ...
> If you bought him a car kit when he was learning to drive, I suppose a
> glider kit might make some sense.
>
> If he just wants to fly, help him buy a nice older glass ship - it'll
> be cheaper and quicker, believe me.
>
> Mike

[Tim Mara]

yes.......and many of them (most today) not from these old wood ships....!
tim


Infact looking at the NTSB this type has a lot of fatal's from
structural failure!!

Sobering thought when looking at old wooden / homebuilt gliders.

[Ian]

On 5 Feb, 14:15, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:

> no, he can and probably will buy the fibreglass ship himself.
> I wanted something that was beautiful to look at and fun to fly. the
> amazing thing in aviation is that if you can lay hands on the plans
> you can build an exact replica of a classic design in modern
> materials, and have it perform just like the original.

Please, please, please built him a Minimoa!

Ian

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 5, 1:08*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> The next time someone sneers at a wooden sailplane, remind them that it is made of a unidirectional reinforced laminated composite material consisting of micro-tubular fibres embedded in a long chain polymer matrix and having a near infinite fatigue life.

And if you built a new one with modern adhesives the near infinite
fatigue life would be of some value. Many of the older wooden gliders
were retired because the glue holding those wonder composite
components together gave up the ghost.

One of my last woodie flights was in a T21 on aero tow. Despite the
tug flying as slow as possible I sometimes had somewhat alarming
aileron control reversal. Turns out the wings flexed enough that the
ailerons were acting as aileron tabs and twisting the whole wing. I
don't know what happened to it, but I never wanted to fly it again.

On the other hand my only flight in an SHK was a delight.

Andy

[Ian]

On 6 Feb, 00:13, Andy > wrote:

> And if you built a new one with modern adhesives the near infinite
> fatigue life would be of some value. Many of the older wooden gliders
> were retired because the glue holding those wonder composite
> components together gave up the ghost.

As far as I know, the only major glueing problems have been with pre-
war gliders made with casein glue. Just about everything post-war used
urea-formaldehyde (cascamite) which is effectively eternal. My club is
happily using a Ka2 from 1955 which has had no glue problems.

That's wood-wood glueing, by the way. I know there have been problems
with the Oly wood/metal composite spars.

Ian

[Bill Daniels]

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> On 6 Feb, 00:13, Andy > wrote:
>
>> And if you built a new one with modern adhesives the near infinite
>> fatigue life would be of some value. Many of the older wooden gliders
>> were retired because the glue holding those wonder composite
>> components together gave up the ghost.
>
> As far as I know, the only major glueing problems have been with pre-
> war gliders made with casein glue. Just about everything post-war used
> urea-formaldehyde (cascamite) which is effectively eternal. My club is
> happily using a Ka2 from 1955 which has had no glue problems.
>
> That's wood-wood glueing, by the way. I know there have been problems
> with the Oly wood/metal composite spars.
>
> Ian

There's no simple way to categorize wooden gliders. Bad glue is bad, good
glue is good etc... The condition of an older wood glider depends heavilly
on the love and care it has been given. A wood glider is a high maintenance
mistress.

What I haven't seen discussed here is the sound of wood. If you whack
fiberglass with your hand it just goes "whack", metal sounds like a tin can
but, a wood glider sounds like a fine musical instrument. The acoustic
characteristics of wood shapes airflow sounds into changing musical chords
in a most pleasing way. The sound is addictive - once you have heard it,
you want to hear it again and again.

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

On Feb 6, 9:07*am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Ian" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6 Feb, 00:13, Andy > wrote:
>
> >> And if you built a new one with modern adhesives the near infinite
> >> fatigue life would be of some value. *Many of the older wooden gliders
> >> were retired because the glue holding those wonder composite
> >> components together gave up the ghost.
>
> > As far as I know, the only major glueing problems have been with pre-
> > war gliders made with casein glue. Just about everything post-war used
> > urea-formaldehyde (cascamite) which is effectively eternal. My club is
> > happily using a Ka2 from 1955 which has had no glue problems.
>
> > That's wood-wood glueing, by the way. I know there have been problems
> > with the Oly wood/metal composite spars.
>
> > Ian
>
> There's no simple way to categorize wooden gliders. *Bad glue is bad, good
> glue is good etc... *The condition of an older wood glider depends heavilly
> on the love and care it has been given. *A wood glider is a high maintenance
> mistress.
>
> What I haven't seen discussed here is the sound of wood. *If you whack
> fiberglass with your hand it just goes "whack", metal sounds like a tin can
> but, a wood glider sounds like a fine musical instrument. *The acoustic
> characteristics of wood shapes airflow sounds into changing musical chords
> in a most pleasing way. *The sound is addictive - once you have heard it,
> you want to hear it again and again.
>
> Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I like the RIDE of wood wings. It's unique and very pleasing like a
fine luxury car.
MM

[[email protected]]

On Feb 6, 9:26 am, wrote:
> On Feb 6, 9:07 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Ian" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On 6 Feb, 00:13, Andy > wrote:
>
> > >> And if you built a new one with modern adhesives the near infinite
> > >> fatigue life would be of some value. Many of the older wooden gliders
> > >> were retired because the glue holding those wonder composite
> > >> components together gave up the ghost.
>
> > > As far as I know, the only major glueing problems have been with pre-
> > > war gliders made with casein glue. Just about everything post-war used
> > > urea-formaldehyde (cascamite) which is effectively eternal. My club is
> > > happily using a Ka2 from 1955 which has had no glue problems.
>
> > > That's wood-wood glueing, by the way. I know there have been problems
> > > with the Oly wood/metal composite spars.
>
> > > Ian
>
> > There's no simple way to categorize wooden gliders. Bad glue is bad, good
> > glue is good etc... The condition of an older wood glider depends heavilly
> > on the love and care it has been given. A wood glider is a high maintenance
> > mistress.
>
> > What I haven't seen discussed here is the sound of wood. If you whack
> > fiberglass with your hand it just goes "whack", metal sounds like a tin can
> > but, a wood glider sounds like a fine musical instrument. The acoustic
> > characteristics of wood shapes airflow sounds into changing musical chords
> > in a most pleasing way. The sound is addictive - once you have heard it,
> > you want to hear it again and again.
>
> > Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I like the RIDE of wood wings. It's unique and very pleasing like a
> fine luxury car.
> MM


yes the ride is sweet. the flex on the thermals is there just enough
to notice. I enjoy looking out the 20 foot long wing of my cherokee
and seeing that slight bend up. Then i pretend that I am flying the
eta. Then I land in a field somewhere. Time to stop daydreaming
during cross countries! :D

[Werner Schmidt]

Hello , you wrote at 06.02.2008 21:53

[flying wood]

> yes the ride is sweet. the flex on the thermals is there just enough
> to notice.

it's not just that (sweet). It's like *dancing* on the thermals (flown
Ka6 and Ka8).

> I enjoy looking out the 20 foot long wing of my cherokee
> and seeing that slight bend up. Then i pretend that I am flying the
> eta. Then I land in a field somewhere. Time to stop daydreaming
> during cross countries! :D

Yes. You won't get that far as in glass (in the same time). But it's
FUN. More fun per time, as far as I'm concerned.

Regards
Werner

[Chip Bearden]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

>Remembering the rhetoric from the '60's; <SNIP>
>"You can trust a tree!"

I guess this dates me but I still remember (I hope with some accuracy)
the ads in SOARING by George Coder (whom I never met) for his Std.
Austria using that line and several others. :) This was back in the
days when we lived for the arrival each month of that magazine.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

[[email protected]]

And the parts grow on trees!!

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:43:10 -0800 (PST), Ian
> wrote:

>On 5 Feb, 14:15, Stealth Pilot >
>wrote:
>
>> no, he can and probably will buy the fibreglass ship himself.
>> I wanted something that was beautiful to look at and fun to fly. the
>> amazing thing in aviation is that if you can lay hands on the plans
>> you can build an exact replica of a classic design in modern
>> materials, and have it perform just like the original.
>
>Please, please, please built him a Minimoa!
>
>Ian

where would you get the plans?

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:21:22 +0100, Werner Schmidt >
wrote:

>Hello , you wrote at 06.02.2008 21:53
>
>[flying wood]
>
>> yes the ride is sweet. the flex on the thermals is there just enough
>> to notice.
>
>it's not just that (sweet). It's like *dancing* on the thermals (flown
>Ka6 and Ka8).
>
>> I enjoy looking out the 20 foot long wing of my cherokee
>> and seeing that slight bend up. Then i pretend that I am flying the
>> eta. Then I land in a field somewhere. Time to stop daydreaming
>> during cross countries! :D
>
>Yes. You won't get that far as in glass (in the same time). But it's
>FUN. More fun per time, as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Regards
> Werner

guys thank you immensely.
I think I will.
....added motivation to get the turbulent finished and flying.

if the boy doesnt like it I'll fly it myself.
Stealth Pilot

[John Smith]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

>> Please, please, please built him a Minimoa!

> where would you get the plans?

Shempp Hirth might still have the plans. If everything else fails, the
Glider Museum on the Wasserkuppe <http://www.segelflugmuseum.de/> has an
original Minimoa. The museum is always willing to help if somebody wants
to build a replica.

[Peter Thomas]

Start by joining the VGC www.vintagegliderclub.org/

I think one of the 4 minimoas in europe is a new build,
However the Minimoa based at London GC, UK has recently
started flying again after a 30 year restoration. I
know the owners, although very pretty it is certainly
not the nicest vintage gllider to fly.

One of the owners also has a Rhonsperber, which is
much more user friendly.

From the VGC mags it seems that quite a few types have
had new builds which must have plans available, so
there may be quite a choice. Some seem unnecessarily
complex, so selecting the right one would help construction
time.

rigging times can vary quite a bit to! the minimoa
is more engineering project than rigging and the Rhonsperber
is not much better

Pete



At 12:30 07 February 2008, Stealth Pilot wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:43:10 -0800 (PST), Ian
> wrote:
>o
>>On 5 Feb, 14:15, Stealth Pilot
>>wrote:
>>
>>> no, he can and probably will buy the fibreglass ship
>>>himself.
>>> I wanted something that was beautiful to look at and
>>>fun to fly. the
>>> amazing thing in aviation is that if you can lay hands
>>>on the plans
>>> you can build an exact replica of a classic design
>>>in modern
>>> materials, and have it perform just like the original.
>>
>>Please, please, please built him a Minimoa!
>>
>>Ian
>
>where would you get the plans?
>

[Peter Thomas]

Start by joining the VGC www.vintagegliderclub.org/

I think one of the 4 minimoas in europe is a new build,
However the Minimoa based at London GC, UK has recently
started flying again after a 30 year restoration. I
know the owners, although very pretty it is certainly
not the nicest vintage gllider to fly.

One of the owners also has a Rhonsperber, which is
much more user friendly.

From the VGC mags it seems that quite a few types have
had new builds which must have plans available, so
there may be quite a choice. Some seem unnecessarily
complex, so selecting the right one would help construction
time.

rigging times can vary quite a bit to! the minimoa
is more engineering project than rigging and the Rhonsperber
is not much better

Pete



At 12:30 07 February 2008, Stealth Pilot wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:43:10 -0800 (PST), Ian
> wrote:
>o
>>On 5 Feb, 14:15, Stealth Pilot
>>wrote:
>>
>>> no, he can and probably will buy the fibreglass ship
>>>himself.
>>> I wanted something that was beautiful to look at and
>>>fun to fly. the
>>> amazing thing in aviation is that if you can lay hands
>>>on the plans
>>> you can build an exact replica of a classic design
>>>in modern
>>> materials, and have it perform just like the original.
>>
>>Please, please, please built him a Minimoa!
>>
>>Ian
>
>where would you get the plans?
>