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Larry Dighera
February 4th 08, 11:17 PM
$25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.


--------------------------
http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-sci-rutan19jan19,1,5443287.story
Space tourism firm fined over deaths

Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites must pay $25,870 after three workers
died at its Mojave test facility. Criminal or civil charges could
still be filed.

By John Johnson Jr., Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 19, 2008

Scaled Composites, the fledgling space tourism company founded by
rocket pioneer Burt Rutan, was fined $25,870 on Friday as a result of
an accident last July that killed three workers at the firm's Mojave,
Calif., testing facility.

The fine covered five violations of workplace safety codes, including
a failure to maintain a safe working environment and to properly train
workers handling hazardous materials, according to the California
Division of Occupational Safety and Health.

The three workers -- Eric Dean Blackwell, 38; Charles Glen May, 45;
and Todd Ivens, 33 -- were killed in an explosion at a remote testing
site at the Mojave Air and Space Port on July 26. Three other
employees were injured in the blast, which occurred when a tank of
nitrous oxide ignited during a test of the spacecraft's propellant
system.

....

Of the five violations cited, two were listed as serious, meaning that
they carried a substantial risk of death or serious injury. One
citation, imposing an $18,000 fine, charged that the company failed to
correct unsafe conditions or workplace practices associated with the
handling of nitrous oxide.

A second accused the firm of failing to inform workers about and train
them in the safe use of hazardous materials, specifically nitrous
oxide.

All five violations have been corrected, said Cal/OSHA spokeswoman
Kate McGuire. She said her office does not determine criminal
negligence. That will be up to Kern County Dist. Atty. Edward R.
Jagels. Steve Katz, supervisor of the district attorney's white collar
crime section, said he hadn't seen the results of the state inquiry.
After reviewing it, prosecutors could file criminal, civil or no
charges, he said.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19726403.500-60-seconds.html
Space pioneer fined

Private rocket-builder Scaled Composites has been fined $25,870 over
an accident that killed three of its employees in July 2007.
California's industrial safety agency said the company failed to fully
train employees to handle nitrous oxide, which exploded during tests
of its SpaceShipTwo craft.



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/space/5468426.html
Jan. 19, 2008, 2:02AM
Space tourism firm is fined $25,870 after deadly mishap

By JOHN JOHNSON JR.
Los Angeles Times
....
Rutan said it was the first injury during a test in the company's
25-year history. Shortly after the accident, the company established
the Scaled Family Support Fund to channel donations to the families of
the injured and dead.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22733186/
Spaceship builder faces fines for fatal blast
State officials fault training at Scaled Composites; $25,870 in fines
sought
NBC News video

Fatal explosion in Mojave desert
July 27, 2007blast at a Mojave Air and Space Port facility belonging
released nitrous oxide, or laughing gas, into the air. NBC's Lester
Holt reports.
....
Until the blast, Scaled had not lost any workers on the job since its
founding in 1982 by maverick aerospace designer Burt Rutan. In 2004,
Rutan's SpaceShipOne achieved a spaceflight milestone by climbing more
than 62 miles (100 kilometers) high on a suborbital journey above
Mojave. It went on to make two more flights to win the $10 million
Ansari X Prize.
....
Rutan said at the time of the accident the test had been carried out
safely many times during the SpaceShipOne program and once before for
the SpaceShipTwo program.



http://www.newstin.com/sim/us/38745222/en-009-001080412

NewsTin has found 27 articles related to this story.

Inspectors cite rocket-builder Scaled Composites over explosion that
killed 3

Jan 19, 2008 27 related article analysis
The company that flew the first privately funded manned rocket into
space has been cited in connection with an explosion last summer that
killed three workers, the state said Friday. ... California
occupational safety inspectors said in a report that Scaled
Composites...

Jim Stewart
February 5th 08, 12:32 AM
Larry Dighera wrote:
> $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
> suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.

Don't count on it.

IANAL, but from what I've heard, worker's
compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.

William Hung[_2_]
February 5th 08, 12:51 AM
On Feb 4, 7:32*pm, Jim Stewart > wrote:
> Larry Dighera wrote:
> > $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
> > suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.
>
> Don't count on it.
>
> IANAL, but from what I've heard, *worker's
> compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
> remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.

Might be a case for negligence.

Wil

Robert M. Gary
February 5th 08, 01:44 AM
On Feb 4, 4:32*pm, Jim Stewart > wrote:
> Larry Dighera wrote:
> > $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
> > suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.
>
> Don't count on it.
>
> IANAL, but from what I've heard, *worker's
> compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
> remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.

What types of torts are available will be dependent on the
jurisdiction. However, any business has a duty to "inspect and warn"
of dangers on the property. Perhaps a negligence could be established
if the management knew of the dangers and did not "inspection" (i.e.
manage it) and "warn" (post warning signs).
However, in life, crap happens too. Sometimes people die and others
get hurt and it isn't anyone's fault. Its a flaw in our modern system
of jurisprudence that we assume that there must be a fault when there
is an injury.

-Robert

NW_Pilot
February 5th 08, 02:44 AM
Have Fun collecting from a Piece Of Paper!!!!!!!!!!

If there is a Civil Action aka Wrongful Death Judgments etc. If they were not
smart enough to have a insurance policy then it's Called Bank-o on the Corp and
they can start a new one!! Aka, Scaled Space Composites Corp.

Ask the Trump.... How many time has he done it?

John[_13_]
February 5th 08, 03:55 AM
This is the fine paid to the state. It has nothing to do with the
compensation to the families of those killed.

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
> suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.
>
>
> --------------------------
> http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-sci-rutan19jan19,1,5443287.story
> Space tourism firm fined over deaths
>
> Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites must pay $25,870 after three workers
> died at its Mojave test facility. Criminal or civil charges could
> still be filed.
>
> By John Johnson Jr., Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
> January 19, 2008
>
> Scaled Composites, the fledgling space tourism company founded by
> rocket pioneer Burt Rutan, was fined $25,870 on Friday as a result of
> an accident last July that killed three workers at the firm's Mojave,
> Calif., testing facility.
>
> The fine covered five violations of workplace safety codes, including
> a failure to maintain a safe working environment and to properly train
> workers handling hazardous materials, according to the California
> Division of Occupational Safety and Health.
>
> The three workers -- Eric Dean Blackwell, 38; Charles Glen May, 45;
> and Todd Ivens, 33 -- were killed in an explosion at a remote testing
> site at the Mojave Air and Space Port on July 26. Three other
> employees were injured in the blast, which occurred when a tank of
> nitrous oxide ignited during a test of the spacecraft's propellant
> system.
>
> ...
>
> Of the five violations cited, two were listed as serious, meaning that
> they carried a substantial risk of death or serious injury. One
> citation, imposing an $18,000 fine, charged that the company failed to
> correct unsafe conditions or workplace practices associated with the
> handling of nitrous oxide.
>
> A second accused the firm of failing to inform workers about and train
> them in the safe use of hazardous materials, specifically nitrous
> oxide.
>
> All five violations have been corrected, said Cal/OSHA spokeswoman
> Kate McGuire. She said her office does not determine criminal
> negligence. That will be up to Kern County Dist. Atty. Edward R.
> Jagels. Steve Katz, supervisor of the district attorney's white collar
> crime section, said he hadn't seen the results of the state inquiry.
> After reviewing it, prosecutors could file criminal, civil or no
> charges, he said.
>
>
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19726403.500-60-seconds.html
> Space pioneer fined
>
> Private rocket-builder Scaled Composites has been fined $25,870 over
> an accident that killed three of its employees in July 2007.
> California's industrial safety agency said the company failed to fully
> train employees to handle nitrous oxide, which exploded during tests
> of its SpaceShipTwo craft.
>
>
>
> http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/space/5468426.html
> Jan. 19, 2008, 2:02AM
> Space tourism firm is fined $25,870 after deadly mishap
>
> By JOHN JOHNSON JR.
> Los Angeles Times
> ...
> Rutan said it was the first injury during a test in the company's
> 25-year history. Shortly after the accident, the company established
> the Scaled Family Support Fund to channel donations to the families of
> the injured and dead.
>
>
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22733186/
> Spaceship builder faces fines for fatal blast
> State officials fault training at Scaled Composites; $25,870 in fines
> sought
> NBC News video
>
> Fatal explosion in Mojave desert
> July 27, 2007blast at a Mojave Air and Space Port facility belonging
> released nitrous oxide, or laughing gas, into the air. NBC's Lester
> Holt reports.
> ...
> Until the blast, Scaled had not lost any workers on the job since its
> founding in 1982 by maverick aerospace designer Burt Rutan. In 2004,
> Rutan's SpaceShipOne achieved a spaceflight milestone by climbing more
> than 62 miles (100 kilometers) high on a suborbital journey above
> Mojave. It went on to make two more flights to win the $10 million
> Ansari X Prize.
> ...
> Rutan said at the time of the accident the test had been carried out
> safely many times during the SpaceShipOne program and once before for
> the SpaceShipTwo program.
>
>
>
> http://www.newstin.com/sim/us/38745222/en-009-001080412
>
> NewsTin has found 27 articles related to this story.
>
> Inspectors cite rocket-builder Scaled Composites over explosion that
> killed 3
>
> Jan 19, 2008 27 related article analysis
> The company that flew the first privately funded manned rocket into
> space has been cited in connection with an explosion last summer that
> killed three workers, the state said Friday. ... California
> occupational safety inspectors said in a report that Scaled
> Composites...
>

Ron Wanttaja
February 5th 08, 07:33 AM
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:44:49 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

> On Feb 4, 4:32*pm, Jim Stewart > wrote:
> > Larry Dighera wrote:
> > > $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
> > > suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.
> >
> > Don't count on it.
> >
> > IANAL, but from what I've heard, *worker's
> > compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
> > remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.

As someone else mentioned, and the news release says, this is a state *fine*,
not a worker's comp settlement.

> What types of torts are available will be dependent on the
> jurisdiction. However, any business has a duty to "inspect and warn"
> of dangers on the property. Perhaps a negligence could be established
> if the management knew of the dangers and did not "inspection" (i.e.
> manage it) and "warn" (post warning signs).

A buddy of mine is a rocket engineer, with absolutely no connection to Scaled or
the company that designed the rocket. After this accident, I asked him for his
best guess, and he suspected that Nitrous Oxide would be at the center of it.
NO2 is benign, *except* in liquid form, where it turns out to be quite
hazardous.

Obviously, the state felt that Scaled didn't take sufficient precautions. Some
people at the company have been contemptuous of the "traditional" space
industry...but if that contempt led to rejection of industry-standard safety
practices, I'm afraid that Scaled is likely due for a hard time in court.

Ron Wanttaja

Denny
February 5th 08, 12:44 PM
I am not dismissing that there were injuries and deaths at Scaled
Composites...

However, as an office based business that has had dealings with OSHA,
I can tell you from experience that they will find 'serious' problems
everywhere... In our case it was having an uncontained corrosive
substance, no explosion proof metal safety locker for storing it, no
safety poster with the MSDS for the corrosive, and failing to have a
full body shower and eye shower station...
What was this corrosive substance that triggered the OSHA action, you
ask? Uranium hexafloride? Red fuming Nitric Acid for fueling my V2
rocket?
Well sir, it was a gallon of salad vinegar from the local supermarket
(where they have a stack of them in the middle of the aisle) that the
janitor kept in the cleaning supplies closet for cleaning the
windows...
In order to avoid the fine, we had to submit a notarized affadavit
that said 'corrosive substance' had been removed from the office and
disposed of in accordance with the laws governing hazardous waste...

Based upon my dealings with OSHA, I have a jaundiced eye when I read
ANY pronouncements from them...

denny

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]
February 5th 08, 02:59 PM
William Hung wrote:
> On Feb 4, 7:32 pm, Jim Stewart > wrote:
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> $25,870 seems like a paltry slap on the wrist for three deaths, but I
>>> suppose the victims' families will likely demand substantially more.
>> Don't count on it.
>>
>> IANAL, but from what I've heard, worker's
>> compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
>> remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.
>
> Might be a case for negligence.
>
> Wil

Depending on jurisdiction, and I don't do any work for California
clients, you usually need to have a third party involved for negligence
claims to come in. Where that often hits the employer is that some sort
of waiver of subrogation is in place where the employer has indemnified
the third party.

Robert M. Gary
February 5th 08, 05:26 PM
On Feb 4, 6:44*pm, NW_Pilot
> wrote:
> Have Fun collecting from a Piece Of Paper!!!!!!!!!!
>
> If there is a Civil Action aka Wrongful Death Judgments etc. If they were not
> smart enough to have a insurance policy then it's Called Bank-o on the Corp and
> they can start a new one!! Aka, Scaled Space Composites Corp.
>
> Ask the Trump.... How many time has he done it?

Trump's reorganizations have all been coorperative. To my knowledge
he's never had a contested court ordered dismissal of debt. When you
are as big as Trump the banks don't loan him money the way they would
you. His bankers have their own office in his office and work directly
with him. They review his financials regularly. They are more
investors than bankers.

-Robert

Gene Seibel
February 5th 08, 05:28 PM
On Feb 5, 6:44*am, Denny > wrote:
> I am not dismissing that there were injuries and deaths at Scaled
> Composites...
>
> However, as an office based business that has had dealings with OSHA,
> I can tell you from experience that they will find 'serious' problems
> everywhere... In our case it was having an uncontained corrosive
> substance, no explosion proof metal safety locker for storing it, no
> safety poster with the MSDS for the corrosive, and failing to have a
> full body shower and eye shower station...
> What was this corrosive substance that triggered the OSHA action, you
> ask? Uranium hexafloride? *Red fuming Nitric Acid for fueling my V2
> rocket?
> Well sir, it was a gallon of salad vinegar from the local supermarket
> (where they have a stack of them in the middle of the aisle) that the
> janitor kept in the cleaning supplies closet for cleaning the
> windows...
> In order to avoid the fine, we had to submit a notarized affadavit
> that said 'corrosive substance' had been removed from the office and
> disposed of in accordance with the laws governing hazardous waste...
>
> Based upon my dealings with OSHA, I have a jaundiced eye when I read
> ANY pronouncements from them...
>
> denny

There's enough laws on the books to make any of us criminals in any
situation. Gives the government in power absolute power to pick and
choose to harrass anyone they don't like.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Flying Machine - http://pad39a.com/gene/
Because we fly, we envy no one.

Larry Dighera
February 5th 08, 06:29 PM
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:44:46 -0800, NW_Pilot
> wrote in
>:

>Have Fun collecting from a Piece Of Paper!!!!!!!!!!
>
>If there is a Civil Action aka Wrongful Death Judgments etc. If they were not
>smart enough to have a insurance policy then it's Called Bank-o on the Corp and
>they can start a new one!! Aka, Scaled Space Composites Corp.
>
>Ask the Trump.... How many time has he done it?

So you're implying that corporations, soulless entities, buy
legislative influence that favors their bottom line above the welfare
of the populace, and then escape responsibility by dissolving and
re-forming under a new name? (No reflection on Scaled Composites
intended.) I thought the corporate principles could be held
personally responsible in certain cases.

Robert M. Gary
February 5th 08, 07:33 PM
On Feb 5, 10:29 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:44:46 -0800, NW_Pilot

> So you're implying that corporations, soulless entities, buy
> legislative influence that favors their bottom line above the welfare
> of the populace,

It's always interesting to me when people who have never been in a
boardroom make statements like this. When running a public company you
have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders (mostly retirement funds,
401K's etc usually) to produce a return for investors. If you believe
people should donate their retirement funds to subsidize the
employment of people when the company isn't able to make money on
their labor you should check out communism.

-Robert

LWG
February 6th 08, 12:17 AM
Correct. Also, some states (such as mine) allow co-employee suits.
Depending on the assets of the co-employee, a suit could be possible.
Generally, WC is the exclusive remedy, regardless of the presence or absence
of negligence. There may be exceptions for gross negligence, or wanton and
wilful conduct on the part of the employer, depending upon the state.

>>> IANAL, but from what I've heard, worker's
>>> compensation insurance is often the "exclusive
>>> remedy" allowed for workplace injuries.
>>

> Depending on jurisdiction, and I don't do any work for California clients,
> you usually need to have a third party involved for negligence claims to
> come in. Where that often hits the employer is that some sort of waiver of
> subrogation is in place where the employer has indemnified the third
> party.

Larry Dighera
February 6th 08, 12:32 AM
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 11:33:45 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 5, 10:29 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:44:46 -0800, NW_Pilot
>
>> So you're implying that corporations, soulless entities, buy
>> legislative influence that favors their bottom line above the welfare
>> of the populace,
>
>It's always interesting to me when people who have never been in a
>boardroom make statements like this. When running a public company you
>have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders (mostly retirement funds,
>401K's etc usually) to produce a return for investors.

I was referring to the unscrupulous corporations that employ the sort
of tactics that landed Abramoff in jail:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/03/AR2006010300474.html
Abramoff Pleads Guilty to 3 Counts
Lobbyist to Testify About Lawmakers In Corruption Probe

By Susan Schmidt and James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 4, 2006; Page A01

Jack Abramoff, the once-powerful lobbyist at the center of a
wide-ranging public corruption investigation, pleaded guilty
yesterday to fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy to bribe public
officials in a deal that requires him to provide evidence about
members of Congress.

The plea deal could have enormous legal and political consequences
for the lawmakers on whom Abramoff lavished luxury trips, skybox
fundraisers, campaign contributions, jobs for their spouses, and
meals at Signatures, the lobbyist's upscale restaurant.

Abramoff, the once-powerful lobbyist at the center of a
wide-ranging public corruption investigation, was sentenced to
five years and 10 months in prison on March 29, after pleading
guilty to fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy to bribe public
officials in a deal that required him to provide evidence about
members of Congress.

In court papers, prosecutors refer to only one congressman: Rep.
Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio). But Abramoff, who built a political
alliance with House Republicans, including former majority leader
Tom DeLay of Texas, has agreed to provide information and
testimony about half a dozen House and Senate members, officials
familiar with the inquiry said. He also is to provide evidence
about congressional staffers, Interior Department workers and
other executive branch officials, and other lobbyists.

"The corruption scheme with Mr. Abramoff is very extensive," Alice
S. Fisher, head of the Justice Department's criminal division,
said at a news conference with other high-ranking officials of the
Internal Revenue Service and the FBI. "We're going to follow this
wherever it goes."

Fisher declined to identify the officials under scrutiny. "We name
people in indictments," she said, adding: "We are moving very
quickly."

Among the allegations in the court documents is that Abramoff
arranged for payments totaling $50,000 for the wife of an unnamed
congressional staffer in return for the staffer's help in killing
an Internet gambling measure. The Washington Post has previously
reported that Tony Rudy, a former top aide to DeLay, worked with
Abramoff to kill such a bill in 2000 before going to work for
Abramoff. ...

February 6th 08, 03:40 AM
On Feb 5, 5:44 am, Denny > wrote:

> Based upon my dealings with OSHA, I have a jaundiced eye when I read
> ANY pronouncements from them...
>
> denny

My eyes are more than jaundiced...
OSHA is another of those good ideas gone overboard.
At work, I have to place those stupid little NFPA stickers on every
container of anything.
The label needs: the chemical name, the manufacturer, and "the date".
It doesn't say what date. Pick one.
This label ends up covering exactly the same information--and more--
that was on the original container label.

I suppose, originally, the NFPA label was required on otherwise
unlabeled containers (think refillable spray bottles). Then someone
wanted to see it on every container, since that was easier than
figuring out WHICH containers.

Oh, yeah. One of the containers held a dangerous chemical: sodium
chloride!!!!!
I wonder why we don't have to have a label on the cafeteria salt
shakers???
sigh....

Robert M. Gary
February 6th 08, 06:01 PM
On Feb 5, 4:32*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 11:33:45 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >On Feb 5, 10:29 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:44:46 -0800, NW_Pilot
>
> >> So you're implying that corporations, soulless entities, buy
> >> legislative influence that favors their bottom line above the welfare
> >> of the populace,
>
> >It's always interesting to me when people who have never been in a
> >boardroom make statements like this. When running a public company you
> >have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders (mostly retirement funds,
> >401K's etc usually) to produce a return for investors.
>
> I was referring to the unscrupulous corporations that employ the sort
> of tactics that landed Abramoff in jail:

Sure those exist, but to make your statement of "So you're implying
that corporations, soulless entities, buy
legislative influence that favors their bottom line above the welfare
of the populace," is like saying all women are evil because your ex-
wife was evil. From my personal experience I've found board members
and execs to be vary concerned with liability and to see genuine value
in their employees and community and have a desire to keep all happy
whenever possible.

-Robert

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