Discovery Flight today...unexpected results

[DGS]

Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
being a pilot for a long time. This year I finally realized that I
had more than enough money to start and figured I owed it to myself to
book a discovery flight with every intention of seeing it through to
my private pilot's license. I've also spent a ton of time through the
years on various PC based flightsims, and on them I've flown a variety
of aircraft and understand the instruments and navigation.

I've flown many times, and a good friend of mine has a Piper Saratoga
that I've flown in several times and even took the wheel for short
periods of time during cruise. I've never experienced anything other
than joy for it.

My flight instructer quickly introduced himself to me and did a very
short inspection of the plane. He then told me that I would basically
be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
into a cold sweat. I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
of sweating. My instructor picked up on the fact that I was nervous,
and kind of just kept repeating "It's really not good to be too
nervous...that can be a problem" and other words to that effect. Once
we levelled off at 2500 feet he had me do some slow turns...still
nervous...death grip going on big time. He wants me to turn the plane
all the way around and go the opposite direction back towards the
airport. I'm turning the plane, but I don't know...I was just so
nervous of turning too hard. It was also a windy, choppy day so many
times the actual feeling of the wind throwing the plane around just
made me scared to maneuver it.

At that point the instructor decided I'd had enough and took back over
the controls. Immediately...nerves gone. The chop...didn't care a
bit. Total relaxation through a landing which even my instructor
admitted was a difficult one for him. I felt pretty dumb for being so
nervous.

At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons. It simply can't
be good for my ability to make decisions in the air and I know that
scarier things like stalling and landing are coming up.

On the other hand...I also don't know about the instructor. He wasn't
overly helpful in combatting my nerves, and I have a feeling that the
right words of encouragment, or for that matter the occasional
instruction or "you're doing fine" maybe would have helped. In a lot
of ways I felt like he kind of just threw me out there before I was
ready mentally...I don't know.

Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
better? Or worse?

[buttman]

On Feb 10, 2:09 am, DGS > wrote:
> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
> being a pilot for a long time. This year I finally realized that I
> had more than enough money to start and figured I owed it to myself to
> book a discovery flight with every intention of seeing it through to
> my private pilot's license. I've also spent a ton of time through the
> years on various PC based flightsims, and on them I've flown a variety
> of aircraft and understand the instruments and navigation.
>
> I've flown many times, and a good friend of mine has a Piper Saratoga
> that I've flown in several times and even took the wheel for short
> periods of time during cruise. I've never experienced anything other
> than joy for it.
>
> My flight instructer quickly introduced himself to me and did a very
> short inspection of the plane. He then told me that I would basically
> be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
> practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
> into a cold sweat. I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
> ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
> any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
> of sweating. My instructor picked up on the fact that I was nervous,
> and kind of just kept repeating "It's really not good to be too
> nervous...that can be a problem" and other words to that effect. Once
> we levelled off at 2500 feet he had me do some slow turns...still
> nervous...death grip going on big time. He wants me to turn the plane
> all the way around and go the opposite direction back towards the
> airport. I'm turning the plane, but I don't know...I was just so
> nervous of turning too hard. It was also a windy, choppy day so many
> times the actual feeling of the wind throwing the plane around just
> made me scared to maneuver it.
>
> At that point the instructor decided I'd had enough and took back over
> the controls. Immediately...nerves gone. The chop...didn't care a
> bit. Total relaxation through a landing which even my instructor
> admitted was a difficult one for him. I felt pretty dumb for being so
> nervous.
>
> At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
> down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
> continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons. It simply can't
> be good for my ability to make decisions in the air and I know that
> scarier things like stalling and landing are coming up.
>
> On the other hand...I also don't know about the instructor. He wasn't
> overly helpful in combatting my nerves, and I have a feeling that the
> right words of encouragment, or for that matter the occasional
> instruction or "you're doing fine" maybe would have helped. In a lot
> of ways I felt like he kind of just threw me out there before I was
> ready mentally...I don't know.
>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?

My first flight was almost exactly as how you described it. He had me
do all the taxiing, as well as the takeoff, which had me scared to
death. I remember him sitting there so calm, "just add power and keep
it on the centerline", while I'm over here sweating buckets. Once the
plane got rolling, we pulled hard to the left, then hard to the right,
then hard left again, until it lifted off. It scared me to death, and
I'm not the kind that get scared by things like that.

Basically, instructors spend pretty much all of their flying time with
post solo students. They sometimes forget that it takes about a dozen
flights before you can comfortably taxi out, takeoff, and maneuver
around. When I was an instructor, I estimate I spent probably 100
hours with pre-solo students, and about 700 hours with post-solo
students. I quit instructing before I was able to work with another
pre-solo student, but if I had, I would have had to re-tool my
routines greatly. Once the student gets to the point where they can do
it all by them selves, all the instructor does is pretty much observe
and explain stuff; very little touching of the controls is needed. The
instructor you flew with was defiantly in "post-solo mode" when he
should have been in "pre-solo mode".

My suggestion to you is to just do another discovery flight with
another instructor. Chances are, he'll be a little more accommodating
to your situation.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:35:13 -0800 (PST), buttman >
wrote:

>On Feb 10, 2:09 am, DGS > wrote:
>> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
>> being a pilot for a long time. This year I finally realized that I
>> had more than enough money to start and figured I owed it to myself to
>> book a discovery flight with every intention of seeing it through to
>> my private pilot's license. I've also spent a ton of time through the
>> years on various PC based flightsims, and on them I've flown a variety
>> of aircraft and understand the instruments and navigation.
>>
>> I've flown many times, and a good friend of mine has a Piper Saratoga
>> that I've flown in several times and even took the wheel for short
>> periods of time during cruise. I've never experienced anything other
>> than joy for it.
>>
>> My flight instructer quickly introduced himself to me and did a very
>> short inspection of the plane. He then told me that I would basically
>> be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
>> practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
>> into a cold sweat. I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
>> ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
>> any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
>> of sweating. My instructor picked up on the fact that I was nervous,
>> and kind of just kept repeating "It's really not good to be too
>> nervous...that can be a problem" and other words to that effect. Once
>> we levelled off at 2500 feet he had me do some slow turns...still
>> nervous...death grip going on big time. He wants me to turn the plane
>> all the way around and go the opposite direction back towards the
>> airport. I'm turning the plane, but I don't know...I was just so
>> nervous of turning too hard. It was also a windy, choppy day so many
>> times the actual feeling of the wind throwing the plane around just
>> made me scared to maneuver it.
>>
>> At that point the instructor decided I'd had enough and took back over
>> the controls. Immediately...nerves gone. The chop...didn't care a
>> bit. Total relaxation through a landing which even my instructor
>> admitted was a difficult one for him. I felt pretty dumb for being so
>> nervous.
>>
>> At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
>> down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
>> continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons. It simply can't
>> be good for my ability to make decisions in the air and I know that
>> scarier things like stalling and landing are coming up.
>>
>> On the other hand...I also don't know about the instructor. He wasn't
>> overly helpful in combatting my nerves, and I have a feeling that the
>> right words of encouragment, or for that matter the occasional
>> instruction or "you're doing fine" maybe would have helped. In a lot
>> of ways I felt like he kind of just threw me out there before I was
>> ready mentally...I don't know.
>>
>> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
>> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
>> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
>> better? Or worse?
>
>My first flight was almost exactly as how you described it. He had me
>do all the taxiing, as well as the takeoff, which had me scared to
>death. I remember him sitting there so calm, "just add power and keep
>it on the centerline", while I'm over here sweating buckets. Once the
>plane got rolling, we pulled hard to the left, then hard to the right,
>then hard left again, until it lifted off. It scared me to death, and
>I'm not the kind that get scared by things like that.
>
>Basically, instructors spend pretty much all of their flying time with
>post solo students. They sometimes forget that it takes about a dozen
>flights before you can comfortably taxi out, takeoff, and maneuver
>around. When I was an instructor, I estimate I spent probably 100
>hours with pre-solo students, and about 700 hours with post-solo
>students. I quit instructing before I was able to work with another
>pre-solo student, but if I had, I would have had to re-tool my
>routines greatly. Once the student gets to the point where they can do
>it all by them selves, all the instructor does is pretty much observe
>and explain stuff; very little touching of the controls is needed. The
>instructor you flew with was defiantly in "post-solo mode" when he
>should have been in "pre-solo mode".
>
>My suggestion to you is to just do another discovery flight with
>another instructor. Chances are, he'll be a little more accommodating
>to your situation.


Thanks for the response. I have actually been up all night somewhat
worried about this...it's been a disappointing day considering how
long I looked forward to it.

Just out of curiosity, considering your first experience was similar
to mine, did you stay with the same instructor?

[buttman]

On Feb 10, 3:52 am, DGS > wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, considering your first experience was similar
> to mine, did you stay with the same instructor?

Yes, but I had no choice really. This was at a collegiate aviation
program where my instructor was basically a classmate of mine. I could
have switched, but for whatever reason I didn't. I forced my way
through it, though, because I knew once I actually finished the
training, I wouldn't have to fly with him anymore, and it would be fun
again. Plus I was a freshman in college, so I had other things on my
mind.

Looking back I should have, because the next instructor I was assigned
to (just before I solod) was way better and I actually ENJOYED flying
with him. There was a huge night and day difference between the two,
both "education" wise and "fun" wise. I remember actually dreading
going to my lessons with the first guy. I remember on my way to the
airport hoping the weather would be too bad to fly and he'd just tell
me to go home.

[kontiki]

DGS wrote:
>
> At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
> down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
> continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons. It simply can't
> be good for my ability to make decisions in the air and I know that
> scarier things like stalling and landing are coming up.

Look... it sounds like you have the strong desire, the intelligence
and the resources to make this happen. Sometimes intelligent people
can be so introspective that they can easily get a case of nerves.
At least try it again... perhaps choose a nice smooth calm day
so you can just concentrate on the feel of the airplane. What you
are feeling is really not at all uncommon in early flight training.

Many people (actually myself included) may think their 'natural'
flying talents are more prolific than they actually are, especially
those that may have spent a lot of time flying sims. Sims are
really not much at all like flying and can give you a false sense
of your abilities... then set you up for a let down when you try
flying a real airplane. They *can* be useful for practicing
certain instrument skills but thats really about it.
>
> On the other hand...I also don't know about the instructor. He wasn't
> overly helpful in combatting my nerves, and I have a feeling that the
> right words of encouragment, or for that matter the occasional
> instruction or "you're doing fine" maybe would have helped. In a lot
> of ways I felt like he kind of just threw me out there before I was
> ready mentally...I don't know.
>
The instructor is of course a key part of the equation. Sometimes
its easy to get complacent and not realize how nervous a first time
student can be. There needs to be a good match of personalities too,
but the instructor is supposed to be able to adjust to any student
(not always an easy thing to do at times, I can tell you firsthand).
That not withstanding, you do have to feel good about the CFI you
are training with so try another one. From what you said, it sounds
like the CFI you flew with was not very astute in terms of his
people skills.

> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?

Do not give up on something you want to accomplish. If you give
up on something before you have even started you will anguish
over it for a long time and that's not good either. It DOES
get better and as your skills improve and your accomplishments
and flying time grow you will build a sense of confidence for
doing the things that require skill and knowledge.

You could go back are discuss this with the guy you flew with...
let him know what you told us... if he's a good guy he'll
start over and work with you. You may both end up having a
whole new respect for each other. Of course you can also
talk to another CFI and set up another intro flight. Its
your training and your money so you should feel good about
the guys you fly with.

[Blueskies]

"DGS" > wrote in message ...
> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
> being a pilot for a long time. This year I finally realized that I
> had more than enough money to start and figured I owed it to myself to
> book a discovery flight with every intention of seeing it through to
> my private pilot's license. I've also spent a ton of time through the
> years on various PC based flightsims, and on them I've flown a variety
> of aircraft and understand the instruments and navigation.
>


Did this 'instructor' share you passion for flying, or was he an hours builder looking for a way out to the airliner as
soon as possible? Many of the so-called CFIs loose sight of their passions for flying and end up simply building time so
they can move on. I suggest you find a different instructor, and maybe even a different school, to pursue your dream.

Don't give up on it, it really is the most enjoyable and challenging experience around!

[T. McQuinn]

DGS wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?
>
I had a similar experience. But I stayed with the guy for another
lesson or two until he nearly scared me to death. When I finally
returned to flying it was with a different instructor and after a few
thorough readings of Stick and Rudder. I soloed a few weeks later. In
my opinion this is something where student/instructor compatibility is
critical. To this day I don't click with all of them. And I only fly
with the ones I'm comfortable with and learn from. YMMV. I suppose if
you want to fly for the airlines, the day will come when you won't get
to choose who's giving you your training. Right now you have choices.

Tom

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:09:15 -0600, DGS
> wrote:

>
>Any feedback or experiences anyone can share?

That's all totally normal. <G>

It's also normal to shop a bit for an instructor you "click" with.
Since you'll spend a decent amount of time in close quarters, under
hot, cold, and stressful conditions, the relationship is important.

Go chat with some more guys and gals, and see how you feel with them.

[Denny]

DGS, if you live near mid Michigan give me a jingle on here... I know
some instructors who would give their eyeteeth to have a motivated
student who can actually afford the instruction - and they know how to
teach without frightening the student...

cheers ... denny

[[email protected]]

On Feb 10, 7:30*am, "T. McQuinn" > wrote:
> DGS wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
> > really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> > necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
> > better? *Or worse?
>
> I had a similar experience. *But I stayed with the guy for another
> lesson or two until he nearly scared me to death. *When I finally
> returned to flying it was with a different instructor and after a few
> thorough readings of Stick and Rudder. *I soloed a few weeks later. *In
> my opinion this is something where student/instructor compatibility is
> critical. *To this day I don't click with all of them. *And I only fly
> with the ones I'm comfortable with and learn from. YMMV. *I suppose if
> you want to fly for the airlines, the day will come when you won't get
> to choose who's giving you your training. *Right now you have choices.
>
> * * Tom

Yes, Stick and Rudder -- I advise strongly that you read it. I did
before I ever got in a plane. It may help a lot toward minimizing your
nervous feeling, and also find a different instructor. Consider
telling them about your first experience, and how the other instructor
made it worse, and what you're looking for.

I think the instructor you were with should not have said "It's not
good to be too nervous" on your first flight. That could only make
things worse, from a pedagogic perspective.

[kontiki]

B A R R Y wrote:
>
> It's also normal to shop a bit for an instructor you "click" with.
> Since you'll spend a decent amount of time in close quarters, under
> hot, cold, and stressful conditions, the relationship is important.
>
> Go chat with some more guys and gals, and see how you feel with them.

Unless you just dislike the guy, it is also recommended to
talk to the instructor about your feelings and expectations.
Communication is a key ingredient (even requirement) between
CFI and student.

Sometimes too often I hear advice such as "go find another CFI.."
when in reality simply sitting down with your CFI to discuss
concerns and/or feelings can open up a whole new channel of
communication with each other. Potentially the CFI can develop
a new respect for a student because he sees they are serious
about their training, know what they want and are not afraid
to express themselves regarding their feelings, concerns and
expectations. The student does have a level of responsibility
to communicate with the instructor and the instructor has the
responsibility to respond to and accept the student. From
this relationship the learning process takes place.

[ONLINE]

Hang in there. With the reasoning you've described, you'll get through
it. Notice I didn't say you'll get -over- it, to wit:

I've been a "new" pilot three times over the years: the first time as a
student pilot in 1963, the 2nd time returning to flying in 1978 after an
8 year hiatus, and again in 2000 after an 18 year break.

I can clearly remember each time having experiences like you describe:
serious nervousness, lots of sweat, a "death grip" on the yoke, even
shaking knees as I applied rudder inputs during turning maneuvers.
These symptoms gradually abated as I gained familiarity with the
environment and confidence in my abilities to manage it.

Such experiences have occurred at other times: the the first solo flight
(and a few more), during the practical (flight) exam for the license,
checkin out in a new airplane, even when taking the biennial flight
review. Although I don't -welcome- those feelings, I credit them with
helping me to be a good pilot by reminding me that it is my skill and
knowledge that makes for safe flying. And when I'm back on the ground,
the accomplishments of the flight, even dealing with the nervousness,
contribute to the enjoyment and satisfaction gained from the experience.

Keep flying; your dreams will be realized.

george

[F. Baum]

On Feb 10, 2:09*am, DGS > wrote:
>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
> better? *Or worse?

This is an interesting post and I am glad you brought it up. It has
been years since I have made my living with primary students, but if
memory serves, this came up all the time. The trick is to replace the
unhealthy nerves with healthy concern. It IS normal to be at least a
little nervous (My most difficult students were a couple of guys who
were totally fearless). I have meet too many people who quit for years
because of a bad experience early on and then regreted it years later
after they finished up. Dont be one of those. Discuss your concerns
with the instructor and maybe try someone else if you two cannot make
things work. Good luck,
Frank

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"DGS" > wrote in message
...
><...>
>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?

I assume you were real nervous the first time you rode a bicycle without the
training wheels - but you have since fogotten. I'm sure you are glad you
learned to ride a bike, right?

Give it a while and you will probably forget how nervous you were on this
flight.

BTW - there is no problem shopping around for instructors - some will be
better for you than others.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[WingFlaps]

On Feb 10, 10:09*pm, DGS > wrote:

>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
> better? *Or worse?

My experience matches yours exactly. I was horribly nervous and my
first solo was not enjoyable I was so nervous. Trust me the training
will gradually take over and the nerves subside as you get comfortable
with flying the 'plane. Avoid an instructor who always grabs the
controls or has his feet on the rudder all the time -it will slow you
down. I'd say, don't get an instructor younger than you are. While
most can fly well they just don't understand how your behavior and
learning processes change as you get older. You need a positive
learning environment -nothing is a problem if you have a desire to
learn and the right learning environment. The only time I'm nervous
now is in bad xwinds with shear.

Cheers

[Phil J]

On Feb 10, 3:09*am, DGS > wrote:
> My flight instructer quickly introduced himself to me and did a very
> short inspection of the plane. *He then told me that I would basically
> be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
> practice area, and landing. *At that point I essentially broke out
> into a cold sweat. *I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
> ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
> any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
> of sweating. *
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
> better? *Or worse?

You have described my first flight perfectly. Except on the takeoff,
I rotated early and we wound up sinking back onto the runway with the
wheels skidding sideways. Now that was exciting! Not a very
promising beginning. I spent the rest of the flight with a death grip
on the stick, trying to push my heart back down out of my throat. I
think my instructor realized that having me do the landing was not a
good idea because he didn't ask me to do it, and I was glad. Maybe he
was still shaken up by the takeoff.

I have dreamed of learning to fly my whole life. I expected it to be
fun and exciting when I finally got the chance to do it. It's very
disturbing and disappointing to discover that it's nerve-wracking and
scary. It makes you question yourself, and you feel like a failure
somehow. Like you are different from all those other guys out there
happily buzzing through the sky without a care in the world. Except
as you can see from all the responses you have gotten, your reaction
was totally normal. There is a big difference between simply riding
in an airplane and taking the controls and piloting it. And when you
have dreamed about something for so long, there is a huge emotional
resonance to it when you do it. It's a seriously important thing to
you, and you are scared to death that you might fail at it. That
magnifies and amplifies your nerves.

It took a lot of willpower for me to continue my lessons. Every time
I drove to the airport I had butterflies in my stomach. As I got more
time in the airplane, I got more and more comfortable. I am still
nervous, especially in landings, but it's not so overwhelming
anymore. The same thing will happen to you. You just have to endure
those feelings and get a few more lessons under your belt. Do it, and
you will feel glad that you didn't give in to the fear. And even
better, it will become fun.

Good luck to you.

Phil

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "DGS" == DGS > writes:

DGS> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share?

You've had some good responses. Hope you don't quit just yet. Many
things we do in modern life are not natural, and thus anxiety is a
normal response. It may be that you had more anxiety than an average
first-flight person. Well, this isn't Lake Wobegone where we're all
better than average! For me, public speaking invoked the anxiety you
had on your first flying lesson, and the cure was Toastmasters--just
practicing the activity repeatedly.

For a long time I had a low level of anxiety flying. Finally I
decided it was because I wasn't flying often enough. Buying my own
plane and flying a lot more removed that. That's not your case, but
the point is that there are ways around anxiety.

I've thought more than once: why continue an activity that caused such
a level of discomfort? But there's something about flying that hooks
you...I can't really explain it. After a couple of weeks not flying I
get a little ansy--and a flight cures it. Strange.
--
The hardest years in life are those between ten and seventy.
~ Helen Hayes, age 83

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
> being a pilot for a long time.

That says it all. Don't let a single bad experience ruin your dream.

It sounds like you went up on a bumpy, turbulent day, which can rattle
anyone. That feeling of being tossed around like a kite is still
uncomfortable, even after many years of flying.

Now that you've seen some bumps, you'll know what to expect on your next
flight. Explain this to your CFI, and try to make your next flight on a
calmer day -- you'll be amazed at the difference.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[AJ]

By all means, pursue flying lessons, only not with that particular
instructor. Look around -- you'll find communicators and non-
communicators. Go for the former.

If you are not confident in the instructor, you'll never have
confidence in flying. Shop around.

Goo luck & good flying.

AJ

[Dallas]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:09:15 -0600, DGS wrote:

> He then told me that I would basically
> be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
> practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
> into a cold sweat.

From what you wrote, I'd say that the instructor accidentally triggered an
anxiety attack in you. I'd give him credit for recognizing it, but it
sounds like he didn't respond with an effective way to deal with it.

As others have said, try it again with another instructor, if you can. And
discuss with him what happened on that first flight while you're still on
the ground.


--
Dallas

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:55:30 -0600, Dallas
> wrote:

>From what you wrote, I'd say that the instructor accidentally triggered an
>anxiety attack in you. I'd give him credit for recognizing it, but it
>sounds like he didn't respond with an effective way to deal with it.
>
>As others have said, try it again with another instructor, if you can. And
>discuss with him what happened on that first flight while you're still on
>the ground.

First of all. THANK YOU to everyone for taking the time to respond.
Needless to say it made me feel a lot better to hear that others at
least had similar experiences and that I wasn't just going nuts.

After many of the replies in here, I've decided to at least give it
another go, however I'm still undecided as to whether or not I will
stick with the same instructor. To be honest, I was scared enough to
where today I don't really even remember much about the whole thing,
so maybe I'm being too hard on the role the instructor played in the
event.

I am actually fearful that I had an anxiety attack...actually. I'm a
musician (used to be a professional one) and I can play in front of
2,000+ people and never feel nervous, however I've never experienced
the sort of white knuckle fear I felt yesterday. It was really scary
and also really unexpected. However, from talking to my family
(especially my dad who, even as a tough guy had to admit he'd been
pooping his pants as well) and listening to others in this group I've
got to at least give it another try. If I get that wigged out again,
I may reconsider. Somehow I have a feeling that knowing more what to
expect may make it a more pleasurable experience.

The REAL doubt that the experience gave me though, is making me wonder
how I will react when I have that first issue...the first failure, the
first cross wind landing, even the first time I'm lost and can't
figure out how to taxi to the correct runway. I do know that I have
to stay cool...so that's where yesterday's experience has turned me
into a doubter. Before yesterday, I figured this was a done deal.

I have an even greater respect for pilots now.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
>> being a pilot for a long time.
>
>That says it all. Don't let a single bad experience ruin your dream.
>
>It sounds like you went up on a bumpy, turbulent day, which can rattle
>anyone. That feeling of being tossed around like a kite is still
>uncomfortable, even after many years of flying.
>
>Now that you've seen some bumps, you'll know what to expect on your next
>flight. Explain this to your CFI, and try to make your next flight on a
>calmer day -- you'll be amazed at the difference.

It was definitely a windy day...18 mph winds with gusts up to 40 mph.
Directly after rotation a major gust hit us and threw the plane at
least 10 yards to the right. That right there caused a major skip of
the heart and lump in the throat. I corrected the plane but just
feeling the wind shove that plane around the way it did definitely
freaked me out. I had no idea that you could FEEL it so much when
your hands are on the wheel...it was like driving a car through a snow
drift.

[DGS]

On 10 Feb 2008 21:18:35 GMT, Clark > wrote:

>At 39 y.o. your pretty used to knowing what you are doing and being in
>control of your part of the world. Driving an airplane is a totally new
>experience and you know that you haven't learned much about it. You also
>have enough experience in life to know that the lack of knowledge can have
>painful outcomes so you're nervous. It's perfectly natural.

My mom also raised this when I talked to her about this. At 39 it has
been years since I stepped outside my comfort zone.

I truly don't remember anymore what it felt like to learn to ride a
bike or drive a car. I don't remember it being that scary though.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:14:41 -0800 (PST), Phil J
> wrote:


>You have described my first flight perfectly. Except on the takeoff,
>I rotated early and we wound up sinking back onto the runway with the
>wheels skidding sideways. Now that was exciting! Not a very
>promising beginning. I spent the rest of the flight with a death grip
>on the stick, trying to push my heart back down out of my throat. I
>think my instructor realized that having me do the landing was not a
>good idea because he didn't ask me to do it, and I was glad. Maybe he
>was still shaken up by the takeoff.
>
>I have dreamed of learning to fly my whole life. I expected it to be
>fun and exciting when I finally got the chance to do it. It's very
>disturbing and disappointing to discover that it's nerve-wracking and
>scary. It makes you question yourself, and you feel like a failure
>somehow. Like you are different from all those other guys out there
>happily buzzing through the sky without a care in the world. Except
>as you can see from all the responses you have gotten, your reaction
>was totally normal. There is a big difference between simply riding
>in an airplane and taking the controls and piloting it. And when you
>have dreamed about something for so long, there is a huge emotional
>resonance to it when you do it. It's a seriously important thing to
>you, and you are scared to death that you might fail at it. That
>magnifies and amplifies your nerves.
>
>It took a lot of willpower for me to continue my lessons. Every time
>I drove to the airport I had butterflies in my stomach. As I got more
>time in the airplane, I got more and more comfortable. I am still
>nervous, especially in landings, but it's not so overwhelming
>anymore. The same thing will happen to you. You just have to endure
>those feelings and get a few more lessons under your belt. Do it, and
>you will feel glad that you didn't give in to the fear. And even
>better, it will become fun.
>
>Good luck to you.
>
>Phil

What a great post...this one really made me feel better. What you
describe here is a carbon copy of how I feel, especially the part
about questioning yourself and feeling like a failure.

[Rich Ahrens[_2_]]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> BTW - there is no problem shopping around for instructors - some will be
> better for you than others.

There were four schools on my home field when I decided to start
training. I took flights with three of them. On the third flight, the
CFI mildly botched the landing, dropping it in pretty hard. On the taxi
in, he said, "Let me explain what happened and what I did wrong on that
landing." And then proceeded to dissect it and make it very clear. That
sold me on him as a teacher, and I did my primary with him. That sort of
analytical approach might bug the heck out of some people, but it was
perfect for my learning style.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:43:23 -0800 (PST), WingFlaps
> wrote:

>On Feb 10, 10:09*pm, DGS > wrote:
>
>>
>> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
>> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
>> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
>> better? *Or worse?
>
>My experience matches yours exactly. I was horribly nervous and my
>first solo was not enjoyable I was so nervous. Trust me the training
>will gradually take over and the nerves subside as you get comfortable
>with flying the 'plane. Avoid an instructor who always grabs the
>controls or has his feet on the rudder all the time -it will slow you
>down. I'd say, don't get an instructor younger than you are. While
>most can fly well they just don't understand how your behavior and
>learning processes change as you get older. You need a positive
>learning environment -nothing is a problem if you have a desire to
>learn and the right learning environment. The only time I'm nervous
>now is in bad xwinds with shear.
>
>Cheers

Thanks for sharing your experience...it has already helped me more
than you can know.

You bring up something interesting...the age of my instructor. It
actually WAS somewhat disappointing to have an instructor who was
younger than me. I don't know...for some reason I didn't feel like I
was on the same page. I see YouTube videos of older flight
instructors who are so reassuring, enthusiastic, and helpful. I
wanted that. Don't get me wrong, my instructor was not a mean guy or
a bad guy. But he was quiet and didn't communicate with me much.

Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
about the fact that he had forgotten to do so. As I then followed him
out of the plane I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either. He
then apologized for forgetting to have either of us do so, but I could
tell that it didn't really bother him. I dunno, I guess it's not a
big deal, but I really kind of want someone who maybe takes it all a
little more seriously.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:19:11 -0500, ONLINE >
wrote:

>I can clearly remember each time having experiences like you describe:
>serious nervousness, lots of sweat, a "death grip" on the yoke, even
>shaking knees as I applied rudder inputs during turning maneuvers.
>These symptoms gradually abated as I gained familiarity with the
>environment and confidence in my abilities to manage it.

My saving grace that kept me from just chucking the whole idea then
and there was that I at least wasn't shaking. Even my instructor
found it odd that I was so nervous that I was sweating and was even
breathing somewhat heavily...but never shook at all.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:25:07 GMT, kontiki >
wrote:

>Unless you just dislike the guy, it is also recommended to
>talk to the instructor about your feelings and expectations.

If i stick with him I definitely will be discussing these things.
First I plan on calling another FBO at the same airport and talking to
one of their instructors first.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:30:42 -0500, "T. McQuinn" >
wrote:

>I had a similar experience. But I stayed with the guy for another
>lesson or two until he nearly scared me to death.

That's what I'm afraid this guy will do...he seemed like the type that
didn't mind a bit that he WAS scaring me to death. He also took great
pleasure after he took over the controls in performing some stalls. He
almost seemed a bit disappointed that they didn't bother me at all.
Nothing bothered me once HE had the controls...I was only effected
when I was driving.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:12:27 GMT, "Blueskies"
> wrote:

>Did this 'instructor' share you passion for flying, or was he an hours builder looking for a way out to the airliner as
>soon as possible?

Hard to tell but judging from his age and lack of compassion over the
situation it's very possible. I don't really know of a tactful way to
ask him this.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:53:44 GMT, kontiki >
wrote:

>Many people (actually myself included) may think their 'natural'
>flying talents are more prolific than they actually are, especially
>those that may have spent a lot of time flying sims

Theres no doubt that I went into it thinking that my time on sims
would give me a leg up. And theres also no doubt that all the time
I've spent on sims didn't mean a damn thing after rotation...LOL!

[Peter Dohm]

-----------------much snipped-------------
> The REAL doubt that the experience gave me though, is making me wonder
> how I will react when I have that first issue...the first failure, the
> first cross wind landing, even the first time I'm lost and can't
> figure out how to taxi to the correct runway.
-----------------some snipped-------------

If you have the same problem that I do, and sometimes have a little
difficulty recalling seldom used words, you might consider a brief page of
crib notes at the back of your check list--at a towered airport, where you
are confused about the taxi route, the nomenclature (IIRC) is "sequenced
instructions" and an airport diagram is a nearly indispensable asset as
well.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

"DGS" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
>>> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
>>> being a pilot for a long time.
>>
>>That says it all. Don't let a single bad experience ruin your dream.
>>
>>It sounds like you went up on a bumpy, turbulent day, which can rattle
>>anyone. That feeling of being tossed around like a kite is still
>>uncomfortable, even after many years of flying.
>>
>>Now that you've seen some bumps, you'll know what to expect on your next
>>flight. Explain this to your CFI, and try to make your next flight on a
>>calmer day -- you'll be amazed at the difference.
>
> It was definitely a windy day...18 mph winds with gusts up to 40 mph.
> Directly after rotation a major gust hit us and threw the plane at
> least 10 yards to the right. That right there caused a major skip of
> the heart and lump in the throat. I corrected the plane but just
> feeling the wind shove that plane around the way it did definitely
> freaked me out. I had no idea that you could FEEL it so much when
> your hands are on the wheel...it was like driving a car through a snow
> drift.

Unless the wind was nearly straight down the runway, that much wind could
very easily exceed the demonstrated crosswind component for landing--and
there are some considerations for taxiing as well. What type of aircraft
was used?

[Alan Gerber]

kontiki > wrote:
> The student does have a level of responsibility
> to communicate with the instructor and the instructor has the
> responsibility to respond to and accept the student. From
> this relationship the learning process takes place.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your advice. This was a discovery
flight; they didn't really *have* a true instructor/student relationship
yet.

Yes, one could have formed from this, but one of the outcomes of the
discovery flight is to decide whether the particular instructor is
suitable.

Your advice sounds kind of like telling people who don't click on a first
date that they should go see a marriage counselor.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Alan Gerber]

DGS > wrote:
> That's what I'm afraid this guy will do...he seemed like the type that
> didn't mind a bit that he WAS scaring me to death. He also took great
> pleasure after he took over the controls in performing some stalls. He
> almost seemed a bit disappointed that they didn't bother me at all.

Run away from this guy. He had a nervous student/passenger, and then he
performs some stalls? Never mind whether that part actually bothered you
or not, he had NO business doing this based on what he already knew about
your reaction to the flight.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Alan Gerber]

DGS > wrote:
> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so. As I then followed him
> out of the plane I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either. He
> then apologized for forgetting to have either of us do so, but I could
> tell that it didn't really bother him. I dunno, I guess it's not a
> big deal, but I really kind of want someone who maybe takes it all a
> little more seriously.

Actually, this IS a big deal.

First off, it's a violation of regulations. You both needed to have your
belts secured. And, on a turbulent day - as you described - it's a safety
issue; the belt helps keep you in the seat, and helps keep you in control
of the aircraft.

Second, it implies that he didn't use a checklist. My checklist shows
this in two places -- before engine start, and before takeoff. I suppose
it's possible that he used a checklist that didn't have this somewhere, it
doesn't seem likely to me.

Besides the flight safety issues, this will also affect your training.
You want to be trained by somebody you want to emulate, since you will end
up emulating your instructor. You're better off being trained by somebody
who takes this more seriously, to ensure you're trained to take it
seriously as well.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Alan Gerber]

DGS > wrote:
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?

It gets better. Lots of us have been through this.

Death grip on the controls? Overcontrolling? Terrified in turbulence?
It's pretty common.

One day during my training, I found myself on a solo in some moderate
turbulence. When I noticed that I was annoyed and not scared, I realized
that I had turned the corner.

My advice: keep trying. Consider another instructor, as several of us
have suggested, but don't worry about your reactions to the flight
situation. They're pretty common, especially on turbulent days, and
you'll do better as you get more experience.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Mike Isaksen]

"DGS" wrote in message ...
> After the flight was over and we'd taxied back to the hanger
> he was climbing out of the plane and realized he didn't have
> his seatbelt fastened. He laughed about the fact that he had
> forgotten to do so. As I then followed him out of the plane
> I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either.

Do you really mean that the shoulder belts weren't used?

I can not imagine doing stall demos without lap belts. It is something ANY
pilot would notice. It is even a requirement on your Flight Test to brief
the examiner (as though they were your passenger) and make sure their belt
is secured.

[DGS]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:30:18 +0000 (UTC), Alan Gerber
> wrote:

>Second, it implies that he didn't use a checklist. My checklist shows
>this in two places -- before engine start, and before takeoff. I suppose
>it's possible that he used a checklist that didn't have this somewhere, it
>doesn't seem likely to me.

He didn't use a checklist...that I know for sure. Was going to
ask...didn't...should have.

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:09:56 -0500, "Peter Dohm"
> wrote:

>"DGS" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
>>>> being a pilot for a long time.
>>>
>>>That says it all. Don't let a single bad experience ruin your dream.
>>>
>>>It sounds like you went up on a bumpy, turbulent day, which can rattle
>>>anyone. That feeling of being tossed around like a kite is still
>>>uncomfortable, even after many years of flying.
>>>
>>>Now that you've seen some bumps, you'll know what to expect on your next
>>>flight. Explain this to your CFI, and try to make your next flight on a
>>>calmer day -- you'll be amazed at the difference.
>>
>> It was definitely a windy day...18 mph winds with gusts up to 40 mph.
>> Directly after rotation a major gust hit us and threw the plane at
>> least 10 yards to the right. That right there caused a major skip of
>> the heart and lump in the throat. I corrected the plane but just
>> feeling the wind shove that plane around the way it did definitely
>> freaked me out. I had no idea that you could FEEL it so much when
>> your hands are on the wheel...it was like driving a car through a snow
>> drift.
>
>Unless the wind was nearly straight down the runway, that much wind could
>very easily exceed the demonstrated crosswind component for landing--and
>there are some considerations for taxiing as well. What type of aircraft
>was used?

Piper Warrior II

>

[DGS]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:09:56 -0500, "Peter Dohm"
> wrote:

>Unless the wind was nearly straight down the runway, that much wind could
>very easily exceed the demonstrated crosswind component for landing--and
>there are some considerations for taxiing as well. What type of aircraft
>was used?

Also...wind was at 18 from 309, but we WERE taking off from runway 31.
Pretty good gust of wind I'd say around 50-100 AGL after takeoff from
left to right that had me pretty scared.

[DGS]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:43:39 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
> wrote:

>Do you really mean that the shoulder belts weren't used?
>
>I can not imagine doing stall demos without lap belts. It is something ANY
>pilot would notice. It is even a requirement on your Flight Test to brief
>the examiner (as though they were your passenger) and make sure their belt
>is secured.

Beltless. He did a climb stall at about 2800ft. Basically drew the
throttle down to idle until it got down to about 40 and the thing
started shaking. He then recovered. But no belts were used...they
were forgotten by us both. He did apologize for forgetting, but it
did strike me as odd that he didn't use a checklist.

Honestly, I only know one other pilot (and he uses checklists and
writes things down religiously)...for all I knew this was just
something pilots did. At this stage I'm as green as can be. I do
know enough about flying to where I should have known better though. I
will be going to a different instructor next time and will insist on
discussing my experience before commencing the next round of lessons.

[Jim Logajan]

DGS > wrote:
> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
> over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so. As I then followed him
> out of the plane I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either. He
> then apologized for forgetting to have either of us do so, but I could
> tell that it didn't really bother him. I dunno, I guess it's not a
> big deal, but I really kind of want someone who maybe takes it all a
> little more seriously.

He was in violation of FAR 91.107 "Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses,
and child restraint systems":

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7a7a76cd5b811ab8e9328ff3f70e748a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.4&idno=14

Were I in your position I'd look to using another instructor.

[kontiki]

DGS wrote:
>
> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
> over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so. As I then followed him
> out of the plane I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either. He
> then apologized for forgetting to have either of us do so, but I could
> tell that it didn't really bother him. I dunno, I guess it's not a
> big deal, but I really kind of want someone who maybe takes it all a
> little more seriously.

Now that you have come out with a more details about this
guy I think its clear that he is not the kind of guy you
should be looking for.

I am sorry you had to be exposed to someone like that for
your first introductory flight and it reflects poorly on
the rest of us who do follow the rules and put a priority
on giving their students the best training they can.

Talk to some other instructors you'll soon run accross some
good ones. Good luck.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-02-11, DGS > wrote:
> First I plan on calling another FBO at the same airport and talking to
> one of their instructors first.

Here's something that should be stressed: You're about to hire this guy to
teach you how to fly. Interview him. Find out why he's instructing, what his
approach to flying is, how he'd have handled the nervousness you had. Make
sure you're comfortable with the guy before you ever climb in the cockpit
with him.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

[John T]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message

>
> If you have the same problem that I do, and sometimes have a little
> difficulty recalling seldom used words, you might consider a brief
> page of crib notes at the back of your check list--at a towered
> airport, where you are confused about the taxi route, the
> nomenclature (IIRC) is "sequenced instructions" and an airport
> diagram is a nearly indispensable asset as well.

"Progressive taxi" has worked well for me.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
http://sage1solutions.com/products
NEW! FlyteBalance v2.0 (W&B); FlyteLog v2.0 (Logbook)
____________________

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> DGS > wrote:
>> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
>> over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
>> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
>> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so. As I then followed him
>> out of the plane I realized that I hadn't had mine fastened either. He
>> then apologized for forgetting to have either of us do so, but I could
>> tell that it didn't really bother him. I dunno, I guess it's not a
>> big deal, but I really kind of want someone who maybe takes it all a
>> little more seriously.
>
> He was in violation of FAR 91.107 "Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses,
> and child restraint systems":


How in the hell can anybody be so unaware of themselves that they don't realize
their seatbelt isn't buckled? The first bump they hit will float them right out
of the seat. Personally, I prefer to become one with the aircraft. My personal
bugaboo is skipping the shoulder strap when planning normal flight. That's
bitten me on the ass before, too... and yet I still resist because I find it
confining. But the seatbelt? It's the first and last thing I do when
establishing myself in the aircraft.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[gatt[_2_]]

"DGS" > wrote in message

>At that point I essentially broke out into a cold sweat.

The instructor should have recognized this. It's a symptom of stress.
You'd get used to it as a student pilot (learning to fly is a psychological
workout and the sweats just mean your brain is working) but it's not
appropriate to stress somebody out on what is basically a familiarization
flight. Discovery flights are supposed to be fun.

> At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
> down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
> continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons.

The nerves go away with experience and confidence. As a student you will
quickly learn that you control the airplane, not the other way around, and
that makes all the difference. But, you'll still sweat from the mental
workout once in awhile during training. It means you've had a full flying
day.

> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share?

You don't want that instructor. He might be the best instructor in the city
for other people, but, not for you. Find somebody else, tell them what
happened and get ready for a much greater experience.

-c

[[email protected]]

On Feb 10, 10:02*pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> If you have the same problem that I do, and sometimes have a little
> difficulty recalling seldom used words, you might consider a brief page of
> crib notes at the back of your check list--at a towered airport, where you
> are confused about the taxi route, the nomenclature (IIRC) is "sequenced
> instructions"

No, it's called "progressive taxi". It's covered in the AIM, 3-1-18
(Taxiing) b-3:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/
and also in the Pilot/Controller Glossary:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/PCG/index.htm
.

[[email protected]]

>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? *At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. *Does this get
> better? *Or worse?

I wouldn't back down . . . it took me a couple of instructors before I
found the right one for me. We all have different ways of learning
and it sounds like this instructor's style does not click with your
style of learning. There's nothing wrong with that, you just need to
find one that does.

Not to mention the fact that as a consumer of a service (flight
instruction) who is about to spend a lot of money learning to fly, you
have every right to shop around around until you find the best
provider of that service.

[gatt[_2_]]

"DGS" > wrote in message
...

> Theres no doubt that I went into it thinking that my time on sims
> would give me a leg up.

It will. You probably already know where to find and how to use a VOR in a
Cessna, for example, and cross-referencing the instrument panel will
probably be a lot easier and more native to you. Maybe not right away.

You just have to get past the mechanical differences of flying an airplane
versus simulating one. There will be a few sim habits to undo, but, as you
clearly already understand, the experience of the real deal entirely
overpowers the sim experience.

-c

[gatt[_2_]]

"Alan Gerber" > wrote in message
...
> kontiki > wrote:
>> The student does have a level of responsibility
>> to communicate with the instructor and the instructor has the
>> responsibility to respond to and accept the student. From
>> this relationship the learning process takes place.
>
> I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your advice. This was a discovery
> flight; they didn't really *have* a true instructor/student relationship
> yet.

I think Kontiki's advice is good for students who are underway with an
instructor, but I agree with you in this case.

In this experience, the Discovery Flight was also the instructor's job
interview for this potential client, and he failed. There is not yet a
realistic student-instructor relationship.

This is a good discussion, everybody.

-c

[[email protected]]

> It's covered in the AIM, 3-1-18

Correction, that's 4-3-18.

[gatt[_2_]]

"DGS" > wrote in message
...

> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
> over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so.


He'd have failed his private and commercial checkrides, not to mention the
CFI pratical. Your pilot didn't have his head in the cockpit. Seatbelts
are right there on the checklist.

> I dunno, I guess it's not a big deal, but I really kind of want someone
> who maybe takes it all a
> little more seriously.

Even if he -hadn't- gotten you up doing stalls, it's a big deal. Had that
turned into a spin you guys would have been all over the cockpit. Your
problem here isn't you, it was the so-called "instructor" who busted an
important safety regulation and demonstrated poor attention to detail in his
very first flight with you.

-c

[kontiki]

gatt wrote:
> "Alan Gerber" > wrote in message
> ...
>> kontiki > wrote:
>>> The student does have a level of responsibility
>>> to communicate with the instructor and the instructor has the
>>> responsibility to respond to and accept the student. From
>>> this relationship the learning process takes place.
>> I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your advice. This was a discovery
>> flight; they didn't really *have* a true instructor/student relationship
>> yet.
>
> I think Kontiki's advice is good for students who are underway with an
> instructor, but I agree with you in this case.
>
> In this experience, the Discovery Flight was also the instructor's job
> interview for this potential client, and he failed. There is not yet a
> realistic student-instructor relationship.
>
> This is a good discussion, everybody.
>

I do totally concur regarding the difference in instructing an
actual student pilot and flying someone on a "discovery flight".
My opining about the importance of the communication aspects of
CFI's and students was in the broader sense for which the seeds
should be planted (by the CFI) on that first introductory flight.

[DGS]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:53:25 -0800, "gatt" >
wrote:

>
>"DGS" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Another thing that left a bad taste in my mouth. After the flight was
>> over and we'd taxied back to the hanger he was climbing out of the
>> plane and realized he didn't have his seatbelt fastened. He laughed
>> about the fact that he had forgotten to do so.
>
>
>He'd have failed his private and commercial checkrides, not to mention the
>CFI pratical. Your pilot didn't have his head in the cockpit. Seatbelts
>are right there on the checklist.
>
>> I dunno, I guess it's not a big deal, but I really kind of want someone
>> who maybe takes it all a
>> little more seriously.
>
>Even if he -hadn't- gotten you up doing stalls, it's a big deal. Had that
>turned into a spin you guys would have been all over the cockpit. Your
>problem here isn't you, it was the so-called "instructor" who busted an
>important safety regulation and demonstrated poor attention to detail in his
>very first flight with you.
>
>-c
>

Agreed. What I *should* have done was ask the instructor why he
wasn't using a checklist, however being totally new to real world
piloting I was intimidated and didn't do so. Had he used a checklist,
he would have remembered our belts (and again I will state
emphatically that I know for a fact that no checklist and NO seatbelts
were used). After we were done I should have notified the manager of
the FBO.

At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm torn on
whether I want to go through the bother of reporting this to the FBO.
There are only 2 in my city and I hate to burn a bridge.

[Dallas]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:25:26 -0600, DGS wrote:

> I am actually fearful that I had an anxiety attack...actually.

Yup, when he said you would basically be piloting the plane through take
off all the way to landing, I'd bet your subconscious brain heard, "You are
going to fly the airplane and I'm not going to help you."

He should have said, "I'll let you fly from take off to landing, but I'll
always have my hands on the controls."

After the seat belt thing, I'd run away from this guy.

Hey, I hope you'll come back and tell us how it goes the second time.

--
Dallas

[gatt[_2_]]

"DGS" > wrote in message

>> Your problem here isn't you, it was the so-called "instructor" who busted
>> an
>>important safety regulation and demonstrated poor attention to detail in
>>his
>>very first flight with you.

> Agreed. What I *should* have done was ask the instructor why he
> wasn't using a checklist, however being totally new to real world
> piloting I was intimidated and didn't do so.

Yeah. On a discovery flight, however, there should be no such expectations
of you whatsoever. The minute you find yourself in a situation like that,
the roles have been reversed. One would expect that from an instructor
doing a BFR for a pilot. "Say...shouldn't you be using a checklist?"

>I'm torn on whether I want to go through the bother of reporting this to
>the FBO.
> There are only 2 in my city and I hate to burn a bridge.

Think of it in terms of how it will help the instructor become a better
pilot. Again, not your responsibility but in the end it might save lives.
An anonymous note to the FBO indicating your experience would probably
result in a pointed memo to the entire staff rather than one guy getting
called to the carpet, although in this case the latter would certainly be
deserved.

I expect your next experience will be much more satisfactory.

-c

[Dallas]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:04:05 -0600, DGS wrote:

> At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm torn on
> whether I want to go through the bother of reporting this to the FBO.

I'd say no.. the chief pilot is likely aware of this instructor's style
and if it's an ongoing issue, chances are he'll be looking for a new job
soon enough.

If the FBO has several instructors, just call in again and tell whoever
answers the phone that you didn't think the chemistry was right and you'd
like to try again with another instructor. Consider describing what you
would like in a good instructor, FBOs are usually small places and the
person answering the phone could help you match up with someone else.

Why not try the other school first just to see what they are like? But
again, try to describe the type of instructor you'd like.

--
Dallas

[gliderguynj]

You've been given some really great suggestions. The cockpit can be
very intimidating until you "know" it. There are a bunch of guages,
radio's etc. You've got kind of cramped quarters, headphones on,
checklists and an instructor that you don't know. It is alot to deal
with. Your sim experience is great for the basics , but it has
nothing to do with the actual mental stress of being a pilot.

I had 4 instructors before I found the one I liked. That's just me,
others say grin and bear it. I strongly suggest NOT giving up on your
dream. Speak to some other instructors. Let them know exactly what
your situation is. A flight instructor may be a good pilot but a bad
teacher. Usually a good flight instructor has a large following and
well known reputation on the field.

IMHO if you get the right instructor and really learn the material you
will develop the confidence and decision making skills that you will
need to be a safe pilot. You are responding to an unfamiliar
situation with a demanding work load with a perception of potential
danger if you goof. Some time just sitting without the engine running
and getting comfortable with the location of everything, a slow start
up procedure, the flow of the checklist, a smooth gentle take off, a
precisely flown pattern and a good landing with the instructor on the
controls and you shadowing would go a long way to helping you.

Doug

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

DGS wrote:
> After we were done I should have notified the manager of
> the FBO.
>

BINGO! We have a winner. That is exactly what you should have done and
isn't to late to still do it. One outcome is that he will give you
another discovery flight "on the house" with another instructor.

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Dallas wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:04:05 -0600, DGS wrote:
>
>> At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm torn on
>> whether I want to go through the bother of reporting this to the FBO.
>
> I'd say no.. the chief pilot is likely aware of this instructor's style
> and if it's an ongoing issue, chances are he'll be looking for a new job
> soon enough.

Dallas. You are so wrong on this that it is scary.

>
> If the FBO has several instructors, just call in again and tell whoever
> answers the phone that you didn't think the chemistry was right and you'd
> like to try again with another instructor. Consider describing what you
> would like in a good instructor, FBOs are usually small places and the
> person answering the phone could help you match up with someone else.
>
> Why not try the other school first just to see what they are like? But
> again, try to describe the type of instructor you'd like.
>

[Phil J]

On Feb 10, 8:34*pm, DGS > wrote:
>
> What a great post...this one really made me feel better. *What you
> describe here is a carbon copy of how I feel, especially the part
> about questioning yourself and feeling like a failure

I'm glad I could help. You are not a failure because you had those
feelings. They are completely normal. Flying an airplane involves a
whole raft of new sensations and a big set of new skills. On that
first flight, the sensations are totally unfamiliar and the skills are
totally unlearned. With each successive flight you will chip away at
both until you become comfortable flying, and one day you will go from
"how am I ever going to be able to do this?" to "hey, I think I can do
this!".

The failure in this situation was the failure of the instructor to
prepare you for how overwhelming that first flight can be. From
reading other posts like yours here, I suspect that there are very few
instructors who talk about this. There are probably a number of
reasons they don't. They probably don't remember much about how they
felt on their first flight. Pilots tend toward macho, and talking
about feelings is not really a macho thing to do. And they want you
as a customer, so they don't want to paint flying lessons in a
negative light.

But you've got this group, and you've gotten a lot of good feedback.
I hope you keep at it. It's good to push yourself out of your comfort
zone once in a while. Flying will definitely challenge you, but it
doesn't require any superhuman abilities. Every day normal human
beings just like you get into airplanes and fly them. If they can do
it, so can you.

Phil

[Mxsmanic]

DGS writes:

> Hard to tell but judging from his age and lack of compassion over the
> situation it's very possible. I don't really know of a tactful way to
> ask him this.

Ask him how long he has been an instructor. If the answer is twenty years,
he's probably not just instructing as a stepping stone to a professional
pilot's job. If the answer is six months, then he probably isn't a career
instructor.

I always find it odd that the FAA has set things up so that practically all
instructors are totally amateur teachers who care only about accumulating
hours. Seems like a dangerous way to teach new students.

[Thomas Borchert]

Dgs,

> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share?
>

Two things:

1. Re-evaluate your expectations of yourself. They are WAY too high!
Worrying about "not making any mistakes" on the discovery flight? The
instructor is there for your mistakes, so just stop worrying. If you
mess up, he'll be there to bail you out. You can't make no mistake
while you learn this.

2. RUN, don't walk from that instructor. Get a new one, someone you
click with. Shop around until you do.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Oh DGS, please ignore this guy (MXS). He is not a pilot, not a student,
just a wannabe who likes to pretend.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Dallas wrote:
>
> After the seat belt thing, I'd run away from this guy.

The spam cans I fly mention seat belts on at least three different
checklists, engine start / pre taxi, takeoff, and approach. <G>

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> BINGO! We have a winner. That is exactly what you should have done and
> isn't to late to still do it. One outcome is that he will give you
> another discovery flight "on the house" with another instructor.


Good idea.

[Peter Dohm]

"John T" > wrote in message
m...
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
>
>>
>> If you have the same problem that I do, and sometimes have a little
>> difficulty recalling seldom used words, you might consider a brief
>> page of crib notes at the back of your check list--at a towered
>> airport, where you are confused about the taxi route, the
>> nomenclature (IIRC) is "sequenced instructions" and an airport
>> diagram is a nearly indispensable asset as well.
>
> "Progressive taxi" has worked well for me.
>
Oops, I did not recall correctly, and need to take my own advice about those
crib notes.

Peter

[george]

On Feb 12, 6:04 am, DGS > wrote:

> At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm torn on
> whether I want to go through the bother of reporting this to the FBO.
> There are only 2 in my city and I hate to burn a bridge.

Well you've met the worst instructor you could have so you now have
experience.
Though not one that any of us would wish upon any-one.
Through his lax attitude he put himself, you and the aircraft into a
pre incident situation.
Report him because if you don't one day soon you'll be reading about
him in an Accident Report

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> DGS writes:

> > Hard to tell but judging from his age and lack of compassion over the
> > situation it's very possible. I don't really know of a tactful way to
> > ask him this.

> Ask him how long he has been an instructor. If the answer is twenty years,
> he's probably not just instructing as a stepping stone to a professional
> pilot's job. If the answer is six months, then he probably isn't a career
> instructor.

> I always find it odd that the FAA has set things up so that practically all
> instructors are totally amateur teachers who care only about accumulating
> hours. Seems like a dangerous way to teach new students.

In the real world as opposed to the simulated one Mxsmanic "flys" in,
most FBO's have a mix of old timers and youngsters building time for
a better job.

In my experiance paying real money to real people for real instruction
in real airplanes, I don't see any overall difference in quality in
either group.

Both groups can have rotten apples and real jewels.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Dallas]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:42:02 GMT, B A R R Y wrote:

> The spam cans I fly mention seat belts on at least three different
> checklists, engine start / pre taxi, takeoff, and approach. <G>

I hate pilots like this Discovery Flight instructor.

Before I was a pilot, I was invited by a friend to sit in the back seat of
a Citabria for an afternoon of punching holes in the sky.

This pilot did not do a walk around or a paper checklist, he just got in
and cranked it up. We taxied to the fuel pump and he started topping off
the tank. I asked him if he wanted me to connect the grounding wire and he
said, "It's not important." An instructor was also at the pump and he
said, "Oh, yes it is..." and he proceed to connect the ground himself. In
the sky, his "patterns" were big lazy ovals.

Who is this pilot friend of mine? He's a senior captain for a major
airline flying 737s.


--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:53:07 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Dallas. You are so wrong on this that it is scary.

Ok... I'll defer to your greater experience.

--
Dallas

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Dallas wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:53:07 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>> Dallas. You are so wrong on this that it is scary.
>
> Ok... I'll defer to your greater experience.
>

Damn It!!! that is not how USENET is supposed to work.

:)

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Also...wind was at 18 from 309, but we WERE taking off from runway 31.
> Pretty good gust of wind I'd say around 50-100 AGL after takeoff from
> left to right that had me pretty scared.

Okay, gusts to FORTY, did you say?

My opinion just changed 180 degrees. You weren't needlessly scared -- you
were properly scared. I've flown in winds like you describe many times, and
it is extremely uncomfortable.

Any CFI that takes a newbie up for a "Discovery Flight" in conditions like
you describe is what we call a "time-builder" -- a whore that is out to pad
his logbook, with no regard for you or your future.

Find another CFI -- pronto -- and go up again on a calm(er) day. You'll be
absolutely astounded at the difference.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dallas]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:34:32 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Damn It!!! that is not how USENET is supposed to work.

You gotta pick your battles.

:- )


--
Dallas

[Mxsmanic]

Dallas writes:

> Who is this pilot friend of mine? He's a senior captain for a major
> airline flying 737s.

Which airline?

[george]

On Feb 12, 3:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dallas writes:
> > Who is this pilot friend of mine? He's a senior captain for a major
> > airline flying 737s.
>
> Which airline?

One with real aeroplanes

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "Dallas" == Dallas > writes:

Dallas> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:04:05 -0600, DGS wrote:
>> At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm
>> torn on whether I want to go through the bother of reporting
>> this to the FBO.

Dallas> I'd say no.. the chief pilot is likely aware of this
Dallas> instructor's style and if it's an ongoing issue, chances
Dallas> are he'll be looking for a new job soon enough.

I agree...don't report it. It was a single incident, not terribly
egregious, and your first flight. Just move on.

BTW, is there a flying club at a local airport? You might have much a
better experience in a club than an FBO. Probably cheaper, more
comaraderie.
--
"He is not only dull himself; he is the cause of dullness in others."
-Samuel Johnson

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>> "Dallas" == Dallas > writes:
>
> Dallas> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:04:05 -0600, DGS wrote:
> >> At this point I'm obviously looking for a new instructor. I'm
> >> torn on whether I want to go through the bother of reporting
> >> this to the FBO.
>
> Dallas> I'd say no.. the chief pilot is likely aware of this
> Dallas> instructor's style and if it's an ongoing issue, chances
> Dallas> are he'll be looking for a new job soon enough.
>
> I agree...don't report it. It was a single incident, not terribly
> egregious, and your first flight. Just move on.
>

Do own or run a business Bob. I have and do and I sure as hell want to
know when my customers get less service than they expect. When I find
this out I either do what I can to change those expectations or make
changes to get the service up to those expectations.

Any business that doesn't do that won't be in business long.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

DGS wrote:
> Hi all. I'm a 39 year old guy who has loved flying and dreamt of
> being a pilot for a long time. This year I finally realized that I
> had more than enough money to start and figured I owed it to myself to
> book a discovery flight with every intention of seeing it through to
> my private pilot's license. I've also spent a ton of time through the
> years on various PC based flightsims, and on them I've flown a variety
> of aircraft and understand the instruments and navigation.
>
> I've flown many times, and a good friend of mine has a Piper Saratoga
> that I've flown in several times and even took the wheel for short
> periods of time during cruise. I've never experienced anything other
> than joy for it.
>
> My flight instructer quickly introduced himself to me and did a very
> short inspection of the plane. He then told me that I would basically
> be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
> practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
> into a cold sweat. I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
> ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
> any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
> of sweating. My instructor picked up on the fact that I was nervous,
> and kind of just kept repeating "It's really not good to be too
> nervous...that can be a problem" and other words to that effect. Once
> we levelled off at 2500 feet he had me do some slow turns...still
> nervous...death grip going on big time. He wants me to turn the plane
> all the way around and go the opposite direction back towards the
> airport. I'm turning the plane, but I don't know...I was just so
> nervous of turning too hard. It was also a windy, choppy day so many
> times the actual feeling of the wind throwing the plane around just
> made me scared to maneuver it.
>
> At that point the instructor decided I'd had enough and took back over
> the controls. Immediately...nerves gone. The chop...didn't care a
> bit. Total relaxation through a landing which even my instructor
> admitted was a difficult one for him. I felt pretty dumb for being so
> nervous.
>
> At this point I don't know what to do. I've got the money, and deep
> down for years I've wanted to do this. But I know that I can't
> continue to be that nervous and continue my lessons. It simply can't
> be good for my ability to make decisions in the air and I know that
> scarier things like stalling and landing are coming up.
>
> On the other hand...I also don't know about the instructor. He wasn't
> overly helpful in combatting my nerves, and I have a feeling that the
> right words of encouragment, or for that matter the occasional
> instruction or "you're doing fine" maybe would have helped. In a lot
> of ways I felt like he kind of just threw me out there before I was
> ready mentally...I don't know.
>
> Any feedback or experiences anyone can share? At this point I'm
> really torn about trying again, while on the other hand still not
> necessarily ready to back down from the challenge. Does this get
> better? Or worse?


-- There's a good and a bad part to my answer.
First, allowing a new student to have complete control of the airplane
from the gitgo is my recommended procedure to all instructors that come
within the range of my voice.
That's the good. Here's the bad.
Your instructor failed to properly prepare you psychologically for what
you were about to attempt. This was the reason you suffered through the
flight the way you did.
Properly preparing a new student to take control of an airplane is a
REQUIRED step in good flight instruction. Failing to take the time to do
this step can, and in many cases exactly duplicates what you experienced.
The instructor has to explain THOROUGHLY to a new student that even
though it will be the student who has control of the airplane, the
ULTIMATE CONTROL of the airplane will still be in the hands of the
instructor.
The student must thoroughly understand two things before the engine is
started. First, that the instructor, REGARDLESS of what the student
might do with the airplane, will NOT let anything get to the point where
it is dangerous. Secondly, and this is extremely important; that nothing
the student will be allowed to do will result in the deviation of the
airplane from normal flight.
This second item is vastly important. Almost all new students have an
ingrained apprehension of unusual attitudes being entered by them doing
something wrong with the airplane. This absolutely MUST be addressed and
dealt with by the instructor.
Once a newbie understands that the airplane isn't going to turn upside
down by their actions and that if they still have control of the
airplane they have done nothing dangerous, newbies will be relaxed and
receptive. The Instructor HAS to take all fear and apprehension out of
the equation. Only after this has been done, can the new student relax
enough to try a first attempt at controlling the aircraft.
I always took a minute or so before letting a new student start the
engine for the first time. I'd smile, and in a quiet voice say something
like this;

"Hey....relax and have fun. Trust me on this. I won't let you do
anything....and I mean ANYTHING, that is dangerous and that I can't
undo. We're going out there and you are going to be able to fly this
airplane. You might not be quite as good as I am but you're going to be
fine. When I'm finished with you, you're going to fly BETTER than I do,
so relax, follow my directions, ask as many questions as you want to,
and we'll do this thing together"

On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
it to you, get one who does.
As for staying or leaving flying; hell...you just got here; stick around
and have fun. I'll tell you what I've told every student I've ever had
in an airplane with me. "If I can fly this airplane...YOU can fly this
airplane. Let's go do it!!"
Dudley Henriques

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Do own or run a business Bob. I have and do and I sure as hell want to
> know when my customers get less service than they expect. When I find this
> out I either do what I can to change those expectations or make changes to
> get the service up to those expectations.

Amen. There is nothing worse than having a customer simply leave, and never
come back, without explaining their reasons for choosing a competitor.

The owner of the FBO deserves to know what his employee is doing to ruin his
business. I know that sounds harsh, but that is precisely what this guy is
doing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[DGS]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:11:38 -0500, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>
>On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
>fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
>here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
>relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
>it to you, get one who does.


At least for the foreseeable future I've decided to put my lessons on
hold. After 5 days I'm still pretty rattled by the whole experience
and I simply no longer look forward to it as I did before the
discovery flight. I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
the cockpit.

Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.

Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
anymore.

[Mxsmanic]

DGS writes:

> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.

Try flight simulation.

[WingFlaps]

On Feb 14, 1:57*pm, DGS > wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:11:38 -0500, Dudley Henriques
>
> > wrote:
>
> >On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
> >fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
> >here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
> >relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
> >it to you, get one who does.
>
> At least for the foreseeable future I've decided to put my lessons on
> hold. *After 5 days I'm still pretty rattled by the whole experience
> and I simply no longer look forward to it as I did before the
> discovery flight. *I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
> the cockpit.
>
> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.
>
> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.

Well that is your choice of course but I think your self doubt is
unwarrented. View it as a mountain to climb. From on top you will see
everything more clearly and I hope to see you up there! Pick a nice
calm day and go for a flight with another instructor -please!

Cheers

[WingFlaps]

On Feb 14, 2:02*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> DGS writes:
> > Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> > anymore.
>
> Try flight simulation.

Good troll MX, but to be honest he dreams of actual flight, not
playing at flying.

Cheers

[[email protected]]

DGS > wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:11:38 -0500, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:

> >
> >On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
> >fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
> >here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
> >relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
> >it to you, get one who does.


> At least for the foreseeable future I've decided to put my lessons on
> hold. After 5 days I'm still pretty rattled by the whole experience
> and I simply no longer look forward to it as I did before the
> discovery flight. I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
> the cockpit.

A good instructor will give you the skills and confidence in your
skills to handle such situations and it takes time to get there.

You didn't have a good instructor by a long shot, nor from your
description, one I would ever care to fly with.

> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.

The reason for those is you had an asshole on the discovery flight.

Might I suggest giving it a week or so to get over the experience,
then go somewhere else and tell them up front you want to fly, you
took a discovery flight, and the guy scared the **** out of you.

Tell them exactly what he did to scare you and why you were scared.

> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.

It is your choice, but you're letting one asshole direct your life.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[RST Engineering]

I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
> the cockpit.

Well, it took 25 years of flying and four thousand some hours before that
emergency took place for me. You'd be surprised how calm you get knowing
that you have been preparing for this sort of event from the first day you
went up into the air.



>
> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.

Sir, if you can find a person with a bigger fear and nervousness and flying
than I was when I started in this game, I'd like to see the color of his or
her hair. I threw up every morning for the first five lessons and I wasn't
even pregnant {;-)



>
> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.

Go find a friend that has been a pilot for a while. Ask him/her to walk
into another FBO and ask for a Discovery Flight and that your friend wants
to meet the instructor that will be going with him/her. Let HIM/HER take
the discovery flight and if (s)he says that the guy is good, go for it
again. Don't just walk in the door and take any meathook that they want to
shove at you.

Like any other endeavor, there are good and bad practitioners. Finding a
gifted teacher and a gifted pilot in the same body is rather difficult but
certainly possible.

Give it another go; you won't regret it. Who knows? Forty years later you
may wind up giving somebody else the same advice.

Jim

Student Pilot Airplane 1964
Private Pilot Airplane 1967
Commercial Pilot 1969
Flight Instructor Airplane 1970
Ground Instructor 1970
Instrument Pilot 1973
Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic 1976
Commercial Pilot Glider 1977
Flight Instructor Glider 1980
Destroyed Airplane In Engine Failure, Three Passengers, Not A Scratch 1988
Mechanic Inspection Authorization 1999

.... hmmm ... time to add some more ratings {;-)

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

DGS wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:11:38 -0500, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:
>
>> On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
>> fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
>> here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
>> relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
>> it to you, get one who does.
>
>
> At least for the foreseeable future I've decided to put my lessons on
> hold. After 5 days I'm still pretty rattled by the whole experience
> and I simply no longer look forward to it as I did before the
> discovery flight. I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
> the cockpit.
>
> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.
>
> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.

Well, I'll be brutally honest with you. What you are describing is a
reaction to your flight that indicates there might be other issues
involved. I'm not a Psychologist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express
last night :-)
In any event, positive incentive and motivation are critical factors
that must be present in any new student. As long as you feel the way you
have expressed here on the forum, I would suggest that you do take a
breather for awhile and reassess everything involved with your decision
to want to learn to fly.
IF, after due consideration, you arrive at a positive motivation level
concerning learning to fly, By all means give it another go.
Find a good instructor based on what you have learned here in this
thread. This is a critical ingredient in your equation.
Probably the best thing I could do for you at this time is to suggest to
you that your apprehension about flying is not a disqualifying situation.
A lot of people new to flying feel apprehensive. It's not all that
serious really and can be dealt with easily by any good CFI worth the title.
Give it some thought, then the final decision is up to you. If you
decide to give it another try, please come back here and post as you go.
There are a virtual ton of highly qualified pilots and instructors on
this forum who will gladly work with you.
Best of luck,


--
Dudley Henriques

[Shirl]

>> I think I'm probably wound too tight, not necessarily to
>> take the lessons and get the license, but for the
>> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place
>> while I'm in the cockpit.

"RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Well, it took 25 years of flying and four thousand some hours
> before that emergency took place for me. You'd be surprised
> how calm you get knowing that you have been preparing for
> this sort of event from the first day you went up into the air.

Took 3 years of flying and just under 200 total hours for the inevitable
emergency for me. We'd just practiced emergency engine failure *two
weeks* prior, and at only 1300' AGL, having the drill freshfreshfresh in
our minds was helpful. Having been through it takes away the "I wonder
what that would be like and how I would react?" questions, but calm? I
doubt having been through it would take away the "Oh Sh*t!" part of it.

Shirl

[RST Engineering]

> Took 3 years of flying and just under 200 total hours for the inevitable
> emergency for me. We'd just practiced emergency engine failure *two
> weeks* prior, and at only 1300' AGL, having the drill freshfreshfresh in
> our minds was helpful. Having been through it takes away the "I wonder
> what that would be like and how I would react?" questions, but calm? I
> doubt having been through it would take away the "Oh Sh*t!" part of it.
>
> Shirl

Didn't mean to imply that. The "Oh, Shi#" takes about four to ten seconds
to realize that you are really in a pile of it. The rest of the minute or
two to impact is securing all the heavy stuff (including the passengers),
briefing them that this is NOT a drill, and hitting the softest, least
expensive object you can find (in that order).

Done it twice, walked away both times. One with an airplane that was then
scrap and once with an unscratched airplane.

Jim

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > Took 3 years of flying and just under 200 total hours for the inevitable
> > emergency for me. We'd just practiced emergency engine failure *two
> > weeks* prior, and at only 1300' AGL, having the drill freshfreshfresh in
> > our minds was helpful. Having been through it takes away the "I wonder
> > what that would be like and how I would react?" questions, but calm? I
> > doubt having been through it would take away the "Oh Sh*t!" part of it.

RST Engineering:
> Didn't mean to imply that. The "Oh, Shi#" takes about four to ten seconds
> to realize that you are really in a pile of it. The rest of the minute or
> two to impact is securing all the heavy stuff (including the passengers),
> briefing them that this is NOT a drill, and hitting the softest, least
> expensive object you can find (in that order).

Oh, I know you weren't implying that.
We had less than a minute, were busy flying the plane, getting our
emergency call made, and then shutting things off (had just topped off
the tanks and were only 6 min into the flight). If we'd had room for
passengers, there wouldn't have been time for any discussion about it,
nor did we have time to think about securing objects.

> Done it twice, walked away both times. One with an airplane that was then
> scrap and once with an unscratched airplane.

Yeah, mine was totaled, 10 hrs after a near total restoration. But have
to be grateful to have walked away.

[Mxsmanic]

WingFlaps writes:

> Good troll MX, but to be honest he dreams of actual flight, not
> playing at flying.

If people dream of _playing_ at flying, it wouldn't be simulation, would it?

[Mxsmanic]

RST Engineering writes:

> Didn't mean to imply that. The "Oh, Shi#" takes about four to ten seconds
> to realize that you are really in a pile of it. The rest of the minute or
> two to impact is securing all the heavy stuff (including the passengers),
> briefing them that this is NOT a drill, and hitting the softest, least
> expensive object you can find (in that order).
>
> Done it twice, walked away both times. One with an airplane that was then
> scrap and once with an unscratched airplane.

You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency. When
pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it hardly
sounds reassuring. No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who expects an
emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one sooner or later.

[WingFlaps]

On Feb 14, 9:01*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> WingFlaps writes:
> > Good troll MX, but to be honest he dreams of actual flight, not
> > playing at flying.
>
> If people dream of _playing_ at flying, it wouldn't be simulation, would it?

Bzzt. you lose. Look up the meaning of "playing".

Cheers

[kontiki]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> DGS writes:
>
>> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
>> anymore.
>
> Try flight simulation.

That is probably what contributed to the problem.

[WingFlaps]

> *No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who expects an
> emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one sooner or later.

LOL an oxymoron from our resident moron MX

Cheers

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> RST Engineering writes:
>
>> Didn't mean to imply that. The "Oh, Shi#" takes about four to ten
>> seconds to realize that you are really in a pile of it. The rest of
>> the minute or two to impact is securing all the heavy stuff
>> (including the passengers), briefing them that this is NOT a drill,
>> and hitting the softest, least expensive object you can find (in that
>> order).
>>
>> Done it twice, walked away both times. One with an airplane that was
>> then scrap and once with an unscratched airplane.
>
> You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency.
> When pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it
> hardly sounds reassuring. No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who
> expects an emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one
> sooner or later.


Yeah, much beter to pretend they don't ever happen. Which , of course,for
you they won't!


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Nomen Nescio > wrote in
:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Mxsmanic >
>
>>You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency.
>>When pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it
>>hardly sounds reassuring. No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who
>>expects an emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one
>>sooner or later.
>
> I am confident that you will never need to handle an in flight
> emergency.

He he.


Many here can vouch for the value in training for these, I'm sure. I have
had a couple of textbook emergencies in which training came to the fore in
an instant. After the initial surprise and a nanosecond of disbelief, it's
uncanny how well procedures work on the day and how they free you up to
deal with miscelanneous incidental annoyances that might result from the
scenario. For those problems that aren't "in the book" there's just no
substitute for knowledge. Systems, weather, navigation, whatever.. But when
things degenerate quickly, like with an engine failure or fire, it's
training and more training.

Bertie

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

DGS wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:11:38 -0500, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:
>
>> On your issue; I'd mention your nervousness to the instructor before you
>> fly again. One thing that might help you is to remember what I've said
>> here in this answer as you walk out to the airplane. It's THIS
>> relationship you want with your own instructor. If this one isn't giving
>> it to you, get one who does.
>
>
> At least for the foreseeable future I've decided to put my lessons on
> hold. After 5 days I'm still pretty rattled by the whole experience
> and I simply no longer look forward to it as I did before the
> discovery flight. I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
> the cockpit.
>
> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.
>
> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
> anymore.


Get back on the horse and do it soon. The longer you wait the harder it
will be.

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

>
> Try flight simulation.

I usually put up with your mindless crap but in this one case I'm really
asking the you shut the **** up MX.

[gliderguynj]

On Feb 14, 3:04*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency. *When
> pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it hardly
> sounds reassuring. *No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who expects an
> emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one sooner or later.


You really are doing more harm than good with posts like the above.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

gliderguynj wrote:
> On Feb 14, 3:04 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency. When
>> pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it hardly
>> sounds reassuring. No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who expects an
>> emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one sooner or later.
>
>
> You really are doing more harm than good with posts like the above.
>
>

Actually, Mxsmanic's quote here is exactly....and I repeat it again for
complete clarity....EXACTLY the antithesis of the very essence of ALL
flight training, whether you are a pleasure pilot flying every Sunday or
fly the highest performance airplanes in the world daily as a professional.

From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
doesn't.

Contrary to your fear that Mxsmanic can do harm on these groups, I am
one flight instructor who welcomes him here. It saves people like me
tons of time having someone like this right at our fingertips as a
negative example to bounce from in making the positive points needed to
impress new pilots and encourage them into creating the right attitudes
that transition into a safe flying environment.

Mxsmanic is no problem here. If I die tomorrow, there will be another
good instructor here in a nano-second taking my place doing the same
thing I've been doing here for years.

There will always be people like this character on these newsgroups.
we all know who they are, and we all know how to deal with them.
No sweat at all. In fact, it can get quite entertaining at times.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Al G[_1_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
>> necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
>> inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
>> the cockpit.
>
> Well, it took 25 years of flying and four thousand some hours before that
> emergency took place for me. You'd be surprised how calm you get knowing
> that you have been preparing for this sort of event from the first day you
> went up into the air.
>
>
>
>>
>> Bitterly disappointed really, I plan on getting some help for the
>> bigger issue which is my nervousness and fear.
>
> Sir, if you can find a person with a bigger fear and nervousness and
> flying than I was when I started in this game, I'd like to see the color
> of his or her hair. I threw up every morning for the first five lessons
> and I wasn't even pregnant {;-)
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks all for your suggestions, I just don't think this is for me
>> anymore.
>
> Go find a friend that has been a pilot for a while. Ask him/her to walk
> into another FBO and ask for a Discovery Flight and that your friend wants
> to meet the instructor that will be going with him/her. Let HIM/HER take
> the discovery flight and if (s)he says that the guy is good, go for it
> again. Don't just walk in the door and take any meathook that they want
> to shove at you.
>
> Like any other endeavor, there are good and bad practitioners. Finding a
> gifted teacher and a gifted pilot in the same body is rather difficult but
> certainly possible.
>
> Give it another go; you won't regret it. Who knows? Forty years later
> you may wind up giving somebody else the same advice.
>
> Jim
>
> Student Pilot Airplane 1964
> Private Pilot Airplane 1967
> Commercial Pilot 1969
> Flight Instructor Airplane 1970
> Ground Instructor 1970
> Instrument Pilot 1973
> Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic 1976
> Commercial Pilot Glider 1977
> Flight Instructor Glider 1980
> Destroyed Airplane In Engine Failure, Three Passengers, Not A Scratch 1988
> Mechanic Inspection Authorization 1999
>
> ... hmmm ... time to add some more ratings {;-)
>
>


> You'd be surprised how calm you get knowing that you have been preparing
> for this sort of event from the first day you went up into the air.
>



Well said. I felt almost relieved.



Al G CFIAMI - 1976 7 engine failures on 6 aircraft, 6 paved runways.

[Al G[_1_]]

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
...
> anyone who expects an
> emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one sooner or later.


Luck, is the point at which opportunity meets preparation.

Al G

[Mxsmanic]

kontiki writes:

> That is probably what contributed to the problem.

Why do you say that?

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> I usually put up with your mindless crap but in this one case I'm really
> asking the you shut the **** up MX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killfile

[Mxsmanic]

gliderguynj writes:

> You really are doing more harm than good with posts like the above.

How so?

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
> doesn't.

I said nothing about practicing or preparation.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
>> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
>> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
>> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
>> doesn't.
>
> I said nothing about practicing or preparation.

You can parse words and phrases all you want, but the fact remains; Your
post, in every sense even remotely related to aviation and flying in
particular, was ridiculous.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> gliderguynj writes:
>
>> You really are doing more harm than good with posts like the above.
>
> How so?

I agree with you Anthony. You are such an obvious idiot nobody would ever
take your advice on anything ever.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
>> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
>> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
>> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
>> doesn't.
>
> I said nothing about practicing or preparation.

You're an idiot.


Bertie

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> I usually put up with your mindless crap but in this one case I'm really
>> asking the you shut the **** up MX.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killfile

Unfortunately I have no way to killfile you that would keep the OP from
reading your crap.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "RST" == RST Engineering > writes:
RST> ... hmmm ... time to add some more ratings {;-)

Maybe...or time to build your own.

--
I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized
tribes. The moral effect should be good and it would spread a lively
terror.
~ Winston Churchill commenting on the British use of poison gas
against the Iraqis after World War I

[[email protected]]

On Feb 14, 6:47 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Nomen Nescio > wrote :
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> > From: Mxsmanic >
>
> >>You can practice many activities for a lifetime without an emergency.
> >>When pilots all start talking about their "inevitable" emergencies, it
> >>hardly sounds reassuring. No emergency is inevitable, and anyone who
> >>expects an emergency to come along is likely to be gratified by one
> >>sooner or later.
>
> > I am confident that you will never need to handle an in flight
> > emergency.
>
> He he.
>
> Many here can vouch for the value in training for these, I'm sure. I have
> had a couple of textbook emergencies in which training came to the fore in
> an instant. After the initial surprise and a nanosecond of disbelief, it's
> uncanny how well procedures work on the day and how they free you up to
> deal with miscelanneous incidental annoyances that might result from the
> scenario. For those problems that aren't "in the book" there's just no
> substitute for knowledge. Systems, weather, navigation, whatever.. But when
> things degenerate quickly, like with an engine failure or fire, it's
> training and more training.
>
> Bertie

Isn't that the cool part? That initial surprise and disbelief of
'WTF!?'. Possibly what kills folks is the complacency with which they
approach an activity and miss the early warning signs thus prolonging
the awareness of a problem and a lengthening of the disbelief time
beyond hope of recovery...they 'freeze' for a few critical moments and
take that much longer to gain situational awareness.

I had a nice Cessna C182 jump at Spaceland (Houston Gulf) one sunny
August Saturday that went well up until deployment. I threw out the
pilot chute and after 3 seconds or so became a little curious as to
why I wasn't experiencing a canopy deployment. Reaching back I found
my pilot chute was seemingly nailed to my leg (this while passing
2000' agl at roughly 1000' / 6s). Two quick tugs convinced me that it
wasn't going to go anywhere and a reserve activation was
necessary...sort it out later.

Landed under the reserve and discovered that I had a twisted leg strap
that could not have been addressed even if I'd started upon exit. But
other folks have died trying to fix a problem rather than address the
situation at hand which is, get'er down (or in the case of skydiving,
get something out there to slow you down).

In this instance the initial disbelief was tempered by the adrenaline
of the jump. Perhaps that makes a difference?

Hours of boredom interspersed with moments of pure terror? Being on
the edge gives greater awareness? Dunno.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in
:


>
> Isn't that the cool part? That initial surprise and disbelief of
> 'WTF!?'. Possibly what kills folks is the complacency with which they
> approach an activity and miss the early warning signs thus prolonging
> the awareness of a problem and a lengthening of the disbelief time
> beyond hope of recovery...they 'freeze' for a few critical moments and
> take that much longer to gain situational awareness.
>
> I had a nice Cessna C182 jump at Spaceland (Houston Gulf) one sunny
> August Saturday that went well up until deployment. I threw out the
> pilot chute and after 3 seconds or so became a little curious as to
> why I wasn't experiencing a canopy deployment. Reaching back I found
> my pilot chute was seemingly nailed to my leg (this while passing
> 2000' agl at roughly 1000' / 6s). Two quick tugs convinced me that it
> wasn't going to go anywhere and a reserve activation was
> necessary...sort it out later.
>
> Landed under the reserve and discovered that I had a twisted leg strap
> that could not have been addressed even if I'd started upon exit. But
> other folks have died trying to fix a problem rather than address the
> situation at hand which is, get'er down (or in the case of skydiving,
> get something out there to slow you down).
>
> In this instance the initial disbelief was tempered by the adrenaline
> of the jump. Perhaps that makes a difference?
>
> Hours of boredom interspersed with moments of pure terror? Being on
> the edge gives greater awareness? Dunno.
>
Me either. It's amazing what you can rise to if you've prepar for it,
though. I think the mind just goes to that program and excludes the
extraneous stuff. My mother was an ambulance nurse and used to go clean
up road accidents in the middle of the night. Took me to one once to get
me to be more careful driving. it was very gruesome. Two teenage boys
about my age killed driving drunk. Yet she used to freak out when I
brought home snakes and frogs. I asked her how she handled the gore at
the accidents when she was so squeamish the rest of the tiime, and she
told me "when you know what to do it's different"


Bertie

[dgs[_3_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killfile

<http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor/patriotic-pictures/how-about-a-nice-cup-of-shut-the-****-up.jpg>

[dgs[_3_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> How so?

You're still an idiot. HTH.

[Margy Natalie]

RST Engineering wrote:
> I think I'm probably wound too tight, not
>
>>necessarily to take the lessons and get the license, but for the
>>inevitable emergency that will at some point take place while I'm in
>>the cockpit.
> .....
> which is my nervousness and fear.
>
>
> Sir, if you can find a person with a bigger fear and nervousness and flying
> than I was when I started in this game, I'd like to see the color of his or
> her hair. I threw up every morning for the first five lessons and I wasn't
> even pregnant {;-)
>
>
>
......
My primary instructor will tell you I was fairly sure I wasn't coming
home for the first 25 hours or so :-). I haven't had any real major
emergencies when I was flying, but a few hiccups for sure. I don't fly
enough to be as sharp as I should be, but even a bit rusty when the
^%^&*(^& hits the fan (or the engine doesn't run right) your training
kicks in, you get to the ground (airport if you are lucky) and then
think about it.

Margy

[Margy Natalie]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

>>
>
> Me either. It's amazing what you can rise to if you've prepar for it,
> though. I think the mind just goes to that program and excludes the
> extraneous stuff. My mother was an ambulance nurse and used to go clean
> up road accidents in the middle of the night. Took me to one once to get
> me to be more careful driving. it was very gruesome. Two teenage boys
> about my age killed driving drunk. Yet she used to freak out when I
> brought home snakes and frogs. I asked her how she handled the gore at
> the accidents when she was so squeamish the rest of the tiime, and she
> told me "when you know what to do it's different"
>
>
> Bertie

Your Mama is one smart lady!

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Margy Natalie > wrote in
m:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> Me either. It's amazing what you can rise to if you've prepar for it,
>> though. I think the mind just goes to that program and excludes the
>> extraneous stuff. My mother was an ambulance nurse and used to go
>> clean up road accidents in the middle of the night. Took me to one
>> once to get me to be more careful driving. it was very gruesome. Two
>> teenage boys about my age killed driving drunk. Yet she used to freak
>> out when I brought home snakes and frogs. I asked her how she handled
>> the gore at the accidents when she was so squeamish the rest of the
>> tiime, and she told me "when you know what to do it's different"
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Your Mama is one smart lady!

Not quick enough to keep up with me, though.. :)


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Unfortunately I have no way to killfile you that would keep the OP from
> reading your crap.

That is your problem, not mine (or his).

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> You can parse words and phrases all you want, but the fact remains; Your
> post, in every sense even remotely related to aviation and flying in
> particular, was ridiculous.

The fact remains that you put words into my post that were not originally
there.

Expecting an emergency (in the sense of assuming or taking for granted that it
will happen) is a variation on target fixation. In target fixation, if you
look at something, you will tend to steer towards it unconsciously.
Similarly, if you expect emergencies, you will tend to steer towards
situations in which they occur.

Logically, if you truly expect an emergency, you should never leave the ground
in the first place.

This is quite different from being prepared for an emergency.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> Unfortunately I have no way to killfile you that would keep the OP from
>> reading your crap.
>
> That is your problem, not mine (or his).


You are an idiot.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> You can parse words and phrases all you want, but the fact remains;
>> Your post, in every sense even remotely related to aviation and
>> flying in particular, was ridiculous.
>
> The fact remains that you put words into my post that were not
> originally there.
>
> Expecting an emergency (in the sense of assuming or taking for granted
> that it will happen) is a variation on target fixation.


Nope.

Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> You can parse words and phrases all you want, but the fact remains; Your
>> post, in every sense even remotely related to aviation and flying in
>> particular, was ridiculous.
>
> The fact remains that you put words into my post that were not originally
> there.
>
> Expecting an emergency (in the sense of assuming or taking for granted that it
> will happen) is a variation on target fixation. In target fixation, if you
> look at something, you will tend to steer towards it unconsciously.
> Similarly, if you expect emergencies, you will tend to steer towards
> situations in which they occur.
>
> Logically, if you truly expect an emergency, you should never leave the ground
> in the first place.
>
> This is quite different from being prepared for an emergency.

Good Grief! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:

> > You can parse words and phrases all you want, but the fact remains; Your
> > post, in every sense even remotely related to aviation and flying in
> > particular, was ridiculous.

> The fact remains that you put words into my post that were not originally
> there.

> Expecting an emergency (in the sense of assuming or taking for granted that it
> will happen) is a variation on target fixation. In target fixation, if you
> look at something, you will tend to steer towards it unconsciously.
> Similarly, if you expect emergencies, you will tend to steer towards
> situations in which they occur.

Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.

Shove your psycho-babble where the sun don't shine.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.

Yes, that was my point.

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Get back on the horse and do it soon. The longer you wait the harder it
> will be.

Another one bites the dust.

I'm afraid we've lost him, dammit.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.

> Yes, that was my point.

Hardly.

Your point, obvious to all, was to denigrate those that do that which you
wish you could do but are too fearful to even try.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Benjamin Dover]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>
> Yes, that was my point.

Your point is to try to subtract from the sum total of human
knowledge. As hard as you constantly strive to meet this goal, you always
fail.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> writes:
>
>> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>
> Yes, that was my point.

Your "point" was exactly the "point" you try to make in literally every
answer you make. You read a post, then attach an entirely new context
and meaning to something someone has said, then throw it back at them in
the hope they will have to change what obviously was correct and
positive into a defensive posture with YOU as the aggressor with the
right answer.
It's amateurish and sophomoric really, and people can see right through
it. This is why you are the recipient of such venom on these forums.
You see, pilots in general are not nearly as stupid and manipulative as
you seem to think they are :-))
Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is incorrect.


--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:bR8tj.34224$9j6.6342
@attbi_s22:

>> Get back on the horse and do it soon. The longer you wait the harder it
>> will be.
>
> Another one bites the dust.
>
> I'm afraid we've lost him, dammit.

What's this "we " ****, paleface?


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>
> Yes, that was my point.
>

Good grief.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> writes:
>>
>>> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>>
>> Yes, that was my point.
>
> Your "point" was exactly the "point" you try to make in literally
> every answer you make. You read a post, then attach an entirely new
> context and meaning to something someone has said, then throw it back
> at them in the hope they will have to change what obviously was
> correct and positive into a defensive posture with YOU as the
> aggressor with the right answer.
> It's amateurish and sophomoric really, and people can see right
> through it. This is why you are the recipient of such venom on these
> forums. You see, pilots in general are not nearly as stupid and
> manipulative as you seem to think they are :-))
> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is
> incorrect.
>
>

You could have just said "Liar liar pants on fire"!

Actually, you could have cut and pasted the Tibetan book of the dead or War
and Peace and it would have the same effect.

Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is incorrect.

So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is
>> incorrect.
>
> So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?
>

Lame and asinine. You are hereby stripped of any troll status you may have
nejoyed in the past.


Bertie

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Get back on the horse and do it soon. The longer you wait the harder
>> it will be.
>
> Another one bites the dust.
> I'm afraid we've lost him, dammit.

I disagree. His nervousness came about, according to his own words were...

"He then told me that I would basically
be piloting the plane through take off, the cruise through the
practice area, and landing. At that point I essentially broke out
into a cold sweat. I was able to get the plane taxied and off the
ground, and never at any point did I make any real mistakes or have
any bad maneuvers...but I was clear EXTREMELY nervous...to the point
of sweating."

He needs to go flying with a CFI that has had the issue explained to him
with no thought that he is in any way the pilot. Then from time to time
during the flight he could take over and do just as much as he is
comfortable with. The moment he feels any nervousness he turns the
controls over to the instructor. I'd be willing to bet by the end of his
second hour he will have been transitioned into the normal student
operations.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 15, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > writes:
>
> >> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>
> > Yes, that was my point.
>
> Your "point" was exactly the "point" you try to make in literally every
> answer you make. You read a post, then attach an entirely new context
> and meaning to something someone has said, then throw it back at them in
> the hope they will have to change what obviously was correct and
> positive into a defensive posture with YOU as the aggressor with the
> right answer.
> It's amateurish and sophomoric really, and people can see right through
> it. This is why you are the recipient of such venom on these forums.
> You see, pilots in general are not nearly as stupid and manipulative as
> you seem to think they are :-))
> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is incorrect.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Dudley...never wrestle with a pig; you'll get extremely dirty and
besides, the pig LIKES IT.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in
:

> On Feb 15, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> > writes:
>>
>> >> Pilots PREPARE for emergencies, they don't EXPECT emergencies.
>>
>> > Yes, that was my point.
>>
>> Your "point" was exactly the "point" you try to make in literally
>> every answer you make. You read a post, then attach an entirely new
>> context and meaning to something someone has said, then throw it back
>> at them in the hope they will have to change what obviously was
>> correct and positive into a defensive posture with YOU as the
>> aggressor with the right answer.
>> It's amateurish and sophomoric really, and people can see right
>> through it. This is why you are the recipient of such venom on these
>> forums. You see, pilots in general are not nearly as stupid and
>> manipulative as you seem to think they are :-))
>> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is
>> incorrect.
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> Dudley...never wrestle with a pig; you'll get extremely dirty and
> besides, the pig LIKES IT.
>

Dudley doesn't wrestle. It's more of a Jui Jitsu thing. The pig just gets
dirtier and Dudley merely adjusts his tie afterwards.

Me, I LUV getting dirty.


Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is incorrect.
>
> So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?

Now try your very best to pay attention to what follows here. I'm going
to paste in below (just for you) the exact quote from my initial post.
Now....are you with us? Do I have your attention? Please!!! Put down
that hamburger and face the screen!!!
Now read carefully....are you ready? Here it comes........

Dudley Henriques wrote;
"From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
doesn't."

Now try very hard Mxsmanic.......starting from the left top and reading
to the right and back again to the left with the next line (pretend it's
a typewriter if that makes it any easier to follow.......now count
carefully........not including punctuation marks......the 40th word you
come to........now pay attention........after me please.....spelling
carefully
now..............P.....R....E.....P.....A.....R... .I....N.....G......this
word can be found in the English dictionary. It is defined as the word
(preparing).
Now........are we together on this yet? Am I getting through here. The
word is PREPARING.

Is there ANYTHING at all I need to add to this to better answer your
question as stated;

"So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?"
--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>
>>> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is
>>> incorrect.
>>
>> So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?
>
> Now try your very best to pay attention to what follows here. I'm
> going to paste in below (just for you) the exact quote from my initial
> post. Now....are you with us? Do I have your attention? Please!!! Put
> down that hamburger and face the screen!!!
> Now read carefully....are you ready? Here it comes........
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote;
> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight
> you make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
> doesn't."

Except during naptime, of course.



Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> :
>
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, your "point" as expressed by you on the issue at hand, is
>>>> incorrect.
>>> So pilots expect emergencies, but do not prepare for them? Or what?
>> Now try your very best to pay attention to what follows here. I'm
>> going to paste in below (just for you) the exact quote from my initial
>> post. Now....are you with us? Do I have your attention? Please!!! Put
>> down that hamburger and face the screen!!!
>> Now read carefully....are you ready? Here it comes........
>>
>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight
>> you make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
>> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
>> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
>> doesn't."
>
> Except during naptime, of course.
>
>
>
> Bertie

Ah...you large airplane drivers have all the fun......nap
time.....scantily clad stews serving piping hot coffee.....oh oh....wait
a second....those scantily clad stews are now wearing PANTS!!!
Maybe I'm better off in a fighter after all :-))))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

>
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Ah...you large airplane drivers have all the fun......nap
> time.....scantily clad stews serving piping hot coffee.....oh oh....wait
> a second....those scantily clad stews are now wearing PANTS!!!



Either way, it's a bit like being in a hairdressers sometimes.


> Maybe I'm better off in a fighter after all :-))))

Given the choice I know where I'd rather be...


Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> :
>
>>>
>>> Bertie
>> Ah...you large airplane drivers have all the fun......nap
>> time.....scantily clad stews serving piping hot coffee.....oh oh....wait
>> a second....those scantily clad stews are now wearing PANTS!!!
>
>
>
> Either way, it's a bit like being in a hairdressers sometimes.

God, I don't envy you. I remember back when a stew was a STEW...all
46/24/36 of her :-))))
>
>
>> Maybe I'm better off in a fighter after all :-))))
>
> Given the choice I know where I'd rather be...

Well, there ARE those long over water flights were those big engines
tend to look AWFUL good hanging out there :-)))


--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>>
>>>> Bertie
>>> Ah...you large airplane drivers have all the fun......nap
>>> time.....scantily clad stews serving piping hot coffee.....oh
>>> oh....wait a second....those scantily clad stews are now wearing
>>> PANTS!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Either way, it's a bit like being in a hairdressers sometimes.
>
> God, I don't envy you. I remember back when a stew was a STEW...all
> 46/24/36 of her :-))))


There are still lots of them like that OK. They can be a lot of fun. the
guys who get invovled with them usually pay big time one way or another,
though..
>>
>>
>>> Maybe I'm better off in a fighter after all :-))))
>>
>> Given the choice I know where I'd rather be...
>
> Well, there ARE those long over water flights were those big engines
> tend to look AWFUL good hanging out there :-)


Yeh, though we go a long way with just two these days!
Lots of electrical redundancy, though.


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> Dudley Henriques wrote;
> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
> doesn't."

So they don't expect them?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
>> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
>> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
>> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
>> doesn't."
>
> So they don't expect them?
>

Of course, fjukktard. We fly around looking for butterflies praying that
the guys who built the thing and the wetaher channel are all perfect.

Happy?






Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
>> make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
>> process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
>> spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
>> doesn't."
>
> So they don't expect them?

What a shame. The resources you waste in this unending and useless
process of yours is enormous.


--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>
>>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight
>>> you make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process
>>> (a process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should
>>> be spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and
>>> usually doesn't."
>>
>> So they don't expect them?
>
> What a shame. The resources you waste in this unending and useless
> process of yours is enormous.
>
>

Yes, the areas that could benefit from his endless inanities are boundless.
The world is obviously his oyster and he's the pearl trapped inside it.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:

> > Dudley Henriques wrote;
> > "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight you
> > make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process (a
> > process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should be
> > spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and usually
> > doesn't."

> So they don't expect them?

expect
v. expected, expecting, expects
v.tr.
1.
a. To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of
b. To consider likely or certain
2. To consider reasonable or due
3. To consider obligatory; require
4. Informal To presume; suppose.

Since you don't seem to understand Engish very well, I've posted the
definition for you.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> :
>
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>>
>>>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>>>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last flight
>>>> you make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training process
>>>> (a process that lasts through your entire tenure in aviation) should
>>>> be spent preparing for an emergency that might never happen and
>>>> usually doesn't."
>>> So they don't expect them?
>> What a shame. The resources you waste in this unending and useless
>> process of yours is enormous.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, the areas that could benefit from his endless inanities are boundless.
> The world is obviously his oyster and he's the pearl trapped inside it.
>
>


Thou waxith poetic this evening :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Dudley Henriques wrote;
>>>>> "From the first day you step into an airplane until the last
>>>>> flight you make as a pilot, EVERY second you spend in the training
>>>>> process (a process that lasts through your entire tenure in
>>>>> aviation) should be spent preparing for an emergency that might
>>>>> never happen and usually doesn't."
>>>> So they don't expect them?
>>> What a shame. The resources you waste in this unending and useless
>>> process of yours is enormous.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, the areas that could benefit from his endless inanities are
>> boundless. The world is obviously his oyster and he's the pearl
>> trapped inside it.
>>
>>
>
>
> Thou waxith poetic this evening :-))

Thanks. Had a good couple of days.


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Since you don't seem to understand Engish very well, I've posted the
> definition for you.

But you haven't answered the question. You gave me something I didn't ask
for, and failed to give me something I did ask for. That seems odd to me.

[dgs[_3_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Yes, that was my point.

The only point you have, chump-boi, is the one at the top of your head.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> Since you don't seem to understand Engish very well, I've posted the
>> definition for you.
>
> But you haven't answered the question. You gave me something I didn't
> ask for, and failed to give me something I did ask for. That seems
> odd to me.
>

I'd say prety much al human interaction seems odd to you



Bertie

[dgs[_3_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> But you haven't answered the question.

Here's the answer to all your questions: you're an idiot.

Anticipating your thanks for this revelation: You're welcome.

> You gave me something

Which is more than you deserve. Now be a good little idiot,
Anthony, and thank the man.

> That seems odd to me.

Of course it does, because you're an idiot. (You're welcome.)

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > Since you don't seem to understand Engish very well, I've posted the
> > definition for you.

> But you haven't answered the question. You gave me something I didn't ask
> for, and failed to give me something I did ask for. That seems odd to me.

In light of the definition of the word "expect", what you asked for
using the word "expect" makes no sense.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:44:50 -0500, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:
>
>> Ah...you large airplane drivers have all the fun......nap
>> time.....scantily clad stews serving piping hot coffee.....oh oh....wait
>> a second....those scantily clad stews are now wearing PANTS!!!
>
> And they're men. <G>

Well, it says that on their driver's license anyway :-)

--
Dudley Henriques