Cost of IGC approved loggers

[[email protected]]

Are IGC approved loggers too expensive? What is there cost point
compared to a Barograph and camera setup? I.E. The cost of a Colibri
logger compared to the cost of an approved Barograph (in 2008
dollars). I don't know the cost of a barograph 20 years ago (in there
heyday) but they could not have been cheap.

Also, are clubs and individuals making loggers available to newer
pilots for badge flights as barographs were?

Just some pondering.

Bob

[Adam]

On Feb 11, 4:12*am, " >
wrote:
> Are IGC approved loggers too expensive? What is there cost point
> compared to a Barograph and camera setup? I.E. The cost of a Colibri
> logger compared to the cost of an approved Barograph (in 2008
> dollars). I don't know the cost of a barograph 20 years ago (in there
> heyday) but they could not have been cheap.
>
> Also, are clubs and individuals making loggers available to newer
> pilots for badge flights as barographs were?
>
> Just some pondering.
>
> Bob

Of course they are too expensive!

Our club took up doantions and bought a EW Avionics Microrecorder.
About $800.

http://www.ewuk.co.uk/

It is very compact, portable, and very easy to use. Anyone in the club
is welcome to use it.

/Adam

[HL Falbaum]

A used, good condition Replogle Barograph can be bought for under 250 USD.
Two Cameras--200 USD.
Homemade camera mount--15 USD
Barograph paper, film and processing all cost--??10 USD per flight.
Recalibration annually 35 USD as opposed to every two years for approved
logger.

If you ask around, someone might have the barographs and cameras they will
give you--maybe---if you are lucky.

Turnpoint photography is tricky and sometimes dangerous. Shoot a bunch of
pictures and have an old-timer look at them before you count on it.

Our club has a old model Volkslogger available for use--Quirky; and a B
model EW --even quirkier (is that a word?)
Most members have not even read the manual--on the website.

--
Hartley Falbaum
MGSA-Georgia, USA

"Adam" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 11, 4:12 am, " >
wrote:
> Are IGC approved loggers too expensive? What is there cost point
> compared to a Barograph and camera setup? I.E. The cost of a Colibri
> logger compared to the cost of an approved Barograph (in 2008
> dollars). I don't know the cost of a barograph 20 years ago (in there
> heyday) but they could not have been cheap.
>
> Also, are clubs and individuals making loggers available to newer
> pilots for badge flights as barographs were?
>
> Just some pondering.
>
> Bob

Of course they are too expensive!

Our club took up doantions and bought a EW Avionics Microrecorder.
About $800.

http://www.ewuk.co.uk/

It is very compact, portable, and very easy to use. Anyone in the club
is welcome to use it.

/Adam

[Pat Russell]

A couple of points:

1. IGC really hates it when you call these things "loggers." They
prefer "Flight Recorders."

2. In a couple of weeks, they will vote on eliminating cameras and
barographs from the Sporting Code.

-Pat

[[email protected]]

Ok, slight misunderstanding in my original post. I wanted to compare
the cost of a "flight recorder" now to a barograph then using 2008
dolar values. What was the cost of a new Barograph 20 years ago? Haw
does it compare to a Colibri, ect. in todays dollars? Is the entry
cost so much different? I'm only talking about the cheapest IGC
approved recorder solution.

Bob

[Cats]

On Feb 11, 2:43*pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> A used, good condition Replogle Barograph can be bought for under 250 USD.
> Two Cameras--200 USD.
<snip>

That sounds expensive for two second hand 35mm cameras with pretty
basic requirements - a tripod screw thread (for ease of mounting), and
auto wind-on. Is b&w film acceptable? If so a developing drum is
cheap again of Ebay.

However I can't think of a single reason I'd want to do it that way.
If nothing else looking at the trace from a flight recorder can be
very interesting, though I conceed that if you are not bothered about
it being valid for claiming badges, just about any Garmin GPS can be
plugged into a PDA running free software giving a cheap way of
recording flights. My club provides barographs (EW-B) for all club
single-seat gliders which does for Bronze (if not done by direct
observation) and Silver badges.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Feb 11, 7:29*am, Cats > wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2:43*pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:> A used, good condition Replogle Barograph can be bought for under 250 USD.
> > Two Cameras--200 USD.
>
> <snip>
>
> That sounds expensive for two second hand 35mm cameras with pretty
> basic requirements - a tripod screw thread (for ease of mounting), and
> auto wind-on. *Is b&w film acceptable? *If so a developing drum is
> cheap again of Ebay.
>
> However I can't think of a single reason I'd want to do it that way.
> If nothing else looking at the trace from a flight recorder can be
> very interesting, though I conceed that if you are not bothered about
> it being valid for claiming badges, just about any Garmin GPS can be
> plugged into a PDA running free software giving a cheap way of
> recording flights. *My club provides barographs (EW-B) for all club
> single-seat gliders which does for Bronze (if not done by direct
> observation) and Silver badges.

The Willamette Valley Soaring Club has an older Colibri available to
any member to use. We also have a number of Palm/GPS setups in the
club that are used for "recording" flights. In several cases the Palm
units are cliped to a GPS unit that clips directly to the unit and
also provides power for the Palm. Very convenient and easy to move
between gliders.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Feb 11, 7:43*am, SoaringXCellence > wrote:
> On Feb 11, 7:29*am, Cats > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 2:43*pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:> A used, good condition Replogle Barograph can be bought for under 250 USD.
> > > Two Cameras--200 USD.
>
> > <snip>
>
> > That sounds expensive for two second hand 35mm cameras with pretty
> > basic requirements - a tripod screw thread (for ease of mounting), and
> > auto wind-on. *Is b&w film acceptable? *If so a developing drum is
> > cheap again of Ebay.
>
> > However I can't think of a single reason I'd want to do it that way.
> > If nothing else looking at the trace from a flight recorder can be
> > very interesting, though I conceed that if you are not bothered about
> > it being valid for claiming badges, just about any Garmin GPS can be
> > plugged into a PDA running free software giving a cheap way of
> > recording flights. *My club provides barographs (EW-B) for all club
> > single-seat gliders which does for Bronze (if not done by direct
> > observation) and Silver badges.
>
> The Willamette Valley Soaring Club has an older Colibri available to
> any member to use. *We also have a number of Palm/GPS setups in the
> club that are used for "recording" flights. *In several cases the Palm
> units are cliped to a GPS unit that clips directly to the unit and
> also provides power for the Palm. *Very convenient and easy to move
> between gliders.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

By the way. Thos Palm GPS units can be put together for under $200
and you'll not only have a logger but a flight computer as well.

[[email protected]]

>
> By the way. *Thos Palm GPS units can be put together for under $200
> and you'll not only have a logger but a flight computer as well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

.... And those are fine for the OLC, but for badge work, you'll still
need an IGC Certified Flight Recorder. Minimum price I've seen is
$750. None of which answers the original question, but I suspect the
costs adjusted for inflation are very close. It should also be
mentioned that there are dozens of ways to mess up a badge attempt
using a Baro and camera, that just aren't an issue with a CFR.

[Nyal Williams]

Oh?

What about those contest pilots who have lost whole
days because they screwed up using a CFR?

At 16:06 11 February 2008,
wrote:
>>
>> By the way. =A0Thos Palm GPS units can be put together
>>for under $200
>> and you'll not only have a logger but a flight computer
>>as well.- Hide quo=
>ted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>=2E... And those are fine for the OLC, but for badge
>work, you'll still
>need an IGC Certified Flight Recorder. Minimum price
>I've seen is
>$750. None of which answers the original question,
>but I suspect the
>costs adjusted for inflation are very close. It should
>also be
>mentioned that there are dozens of ways to mess up
>a badge attempt
>using a Baro and camera, that just aren't an issue
>with a CFR.
>

[rlovinggood]

On Feb 11, 11:05*am, wrote:
> > By the way. *Thos Palm GPS units can be put together for under $200
> > and you'll not only have a logger but a flight computer as well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> .... And those are fine for the OLC, but for badge work, you'll still
> need an IGC Certified Flight Recorder. Minimum price I've seen is
> $750. *None of which answers the original question, but I suspect the
> costs adjusted for inflation are very close. *It should also be
> mentioned that there are dozens of ways to mess up a badge attempt
> using a Baro and camera, that just aren't an issue with a CFR.

Oh, and what about one of my earlier attempts at the 300 km Diamond
Goal flight? I flew the "wrong" triangle. Yes, I flew 300 km and got
the Gold, but I didn't do the triangle that I had declared in the
Volkslogger. Doh! Oh well, just gave me a good excuse to go do it
again.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[mreyes]

I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.

[Shawn[_5_]]

mreyes wrote:
> I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
> Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.

About $1100 in the according to http://www.bls.gov/cpi/ (search the page
for the word "calculator").


Shawn

[Shawn[_5_]]

mreyes wrote:
> I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
> Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.
>
About $1100 in current dollars, according to http://www.bls.gov/cpi/
(search the page for the word "calculator").


Shawn

[[email protected]]

On Feb 12, 6:56*am, Shawn > wrote:
> mreyes wrote:
> > I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
> > Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.
>
> About $1100 in current dollars, according tohttp://www.bls.gov/cpi/
> (search the page for the word "calculator").
>
> Shawn

So now we need to quit complaining about the cost of "flight
recorders" as we now have officially been "complaining" about it for
ever! Nope, I guess it's not going to happen, I still think they are
too expensive!

Man, I can't wait until April!

Bob

[Ian]

On 11 Feb, 14:54, Tim Newport-Peace ]> wrote:

> As I understand it, the comparison between Barograph/cameras and
> Recorders won't be worth a damn if the proposed change in the Sporting
> Code is approved in March which makes IGC Flight Recorders and some
> 'Off-the-Shelf' GPS units the only acceptable forms of evidence up to
> Gold (excluding Diamonds) and only Approved Flight Recorders above that.

And another nail will go into the coffin of soaring. Because we all
fly turbo-equpped german glass from large clubs, don't we, and the
paupers who can't afford to do so can just sod (polite version ...)
right off.

Ian

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

What a nonsense, Ian. In the ancient times, people wanting to get a badge
needed to buy a barograph and a camera, and if I recall correctly, they
weren't cheap - typically more expensive than a logger today.
So, what changed is the technology, not the price tag.

That is, if you care to obtain a badge - which is not exactly what everybody
wants.
Bert

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Feb, 14:54, Tim Newport-Peace ]> wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, the comparison between Barograph/cameras and
>> Recorders won't be worth a damn if the proposed change in the Sporting
>> Code is approved in March which makes IGC Flight Recorders and some
>> 'Off-the-Shelf' GPS units the only acceptable forms of evidence up to
>> Gold (excluding Diamonds) and only Approved Flight Recorders above that.
>
> And another nail will go into the coffin of soaring. Because we all
> fly turbo-equpped german glass from large clubs, don't we, and the
> paupers who can't afford to do so can just sod (polite version ...)
> right off.
>
> Ian
>

[Tim Mara]

I've always been first for the little guy, bring on the new guys keep the
game open to all who might like to and ... and let anyone who has the desire
join in, don't add difficulty or unnecessary costs that might keep them from
playing.
I remember when the first GPS units started showing up at contests...they
weren't even going to be allowed in the cockpits even for navigation (pre
logger days)...then they were allowed giving some (back then a simple Garmin
55 was $1000.00) an advantage in competition....so they too were
everywhere...then loggers came out...closer to $1500 in the
beginnings....soon everyone had to have one to be competitive (no more left
turns at "the" turnpoint....then we did away with turnpoints and simply
said.....fly "near" the turnpoint and count it....if you're real good with
math and PC's you get extra points knowing how to get the most out of being
"near" the turnpoint...all along the folks kept telling us that these were
"optional" devices and you could still use cameras and barographs for badges
and contests and that you'd never "have to" buy any new devices...like all
politics let it go long enough and "they'll forget" what was used to pass
the bill...
anyway.....not likely to fight city hall or those who have the toys or the $
for toys...but the fact remains.......Barographs can be expensive, so can
cameras.....but the truth of the matter is there are already 1,000's of
these sitting on shelves in garages and hangars never to be used again by
the present owners.... great opportunity I'd say for those who don't have
bags of $ to get used and still useful equipment for next to nothing....so
newbie's wanting a badge don't have to buy an IGC approved logger as long as
they keep to their word and let the old "approved" equipment remain...it's
cheap and a good learning tool as well...if we can't see the benefit in this
then let those who want badges do it with cheap non-IGC approved
loggers.....any number of personal tracking devices, PDA software and GPS
handhelds can store logs that should be perfectly acceptable for
badges.....after all, does it really matter what level of security you have
for use with badges.....badges are realistically personal accomplishments
and should require the scrutiny of the Guinness book or need the rest of the
worlds approval.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Feb, 14:54, Tim Newport-Peace ]> wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, the comparison between Barograph/cameras and
>> Recorders won't be worth a damn if the proposed change in the Sporting
>> Code is approved in March which makes IGC Flight Recorders and some
>> 'Off-the-Shelf' GPS units the only acceptable forms of evidence up to
>> Gold (excluding Diamonds) and only Approved Flight Recorders above that.
>
> And another nail will go into the coffin of soaring. Because we all
> fly turbo-equpped german glass from large clubs, don't we, and the
> paupers who can't afford to do so can just sod (polite version ...)
> right off.
>
> Ian
>

[mattm]

On Feb 12, 11:26 am, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> I've always been first for the little guy, bring on the new guys keep the
> game open to all who might like to and ... and let anyone who has the desire
> join in, don't add difficulty or unnecessary costs that might keep them from
> playing.
> I remember when the first GPS units started showing up at contests...they
> weren't even going to be allowed in the cockpits even for navigation (pre
> logger days)...then they were allowed giving some (back then a simple Garmin
> 55 was $1000.00) an advantage in competition....so they too were
> everywhere...then loggers came out...closer to $1500 in the
> beginnings....soon everyone had to have one to be competitive (no more left
> turns at "the" turnpoint....then we did away with turnpoints and simply
> said.....fly "near" the turnpoint and count it....if you're real good with
> math and PC's you get extra points knowing how to get the most out of being
> "near" the turnpoint...all along the folks kept telling us that these were
> "optional" devices and you could still use cameras and barographs for badges
> and contests and that you'd never "have to" buy any new devices...like all
> politics let it go long enough and "they'll forget" what was used to pass
> the bill...
> anyway.....not likely to fight city hall or those who have the toys or the $
> for toys...but the fact remains.......Barographs can be expensive, so can
> cameras.....but the truth of the matter is there are already 1,000's of
> these sitting on shelves in garages and hangars never to be used again by
> the present owners.... great opportunity I'd say for those who don't have
> bags of $ to get used and still useful equipment for next to nothing....so
> newbie's wanting a badge don't have to buy an IGC approved logger as long as
> they keep to their word and let the old "approved" equipment remain...it's
> cheap and a good learning tool as well...if we can't see the benefit in this
> then let those who want badges do it with cheap non-IGC approved
> loggers.....any number of personal tracking devices, PDA software and GPS
> handhelds can store logs that should be perfectly acceptable for
> badges.....after all, does it really matter what level of security you have
> for use with badges.....badges are realistically personal accomplishments
> and should require the scrutiny of the Guinness book or need the rest of the
> worlds approval.
> tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> "Ian" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On 11 Feb, 14:54, Tim Newport-Peace ]> wrote:
>
> >> As I understand it, the comparison between Barograph/cameras and
> >> Recorders won't be worth a damn if the proposed change in the Sporting
> >> Code is approved in March which makes IGC Flight Recorders and some
> >> 'Off-the-Shelf' GPS units the only acceptable forms of evidence up to
> >> Gold (excluding Diamonds) and only Approved Flight Recorders above that.
>
> > And another nail will go into the coffin of soaring. Because we all
> > fly turbo-equpped german glass from large clubs, don't we, and the
> > paupers who can't afford to do so can just sod (polite version ...)
> > right off.
>
> > Ian

It's really a problem in my club (same one as Ray up there). There
are two single
seat gliders; one with an IGC-approved LX5000 logger/flight computer,
and one with
a hole to tie down a barograph. What happens? Pilots get their
silver badge with
the barograph running, switch to the other glider, and never fly the
old one again.
Makes for a utilization problem for the fleet. The cost of an EW
approaches what
we make in rental on that glider in a whole year.

Plus, I took the old one to a contest last year and got a rude
awakening when the
scorer said he'd only accept flight logs from an approved logger (I'd
brought a
handheld Garmin). Fortunately another contestant had a spare one I
could borrow!
I know, this is a whole 'nother thread going on now, but really that
cheap handheld
Garmin I have works fine for proving where I've been.

[Shawn[_5_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 12, 6:56 am, Shawn > wrote:
>> mreyes wrote:
>>> I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
>>> Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.
>> About $1100 in current dollars, according tohttp://www.bls.gov/cpi/
>> (search the page for the word "calculator").
>>
>> Shawn
>
> So now we need to quit complaining about the cost of "flight
> recorders" as we now have officially been "complaining" about it for
> ever! Nope, I guess it's not going to happen, I still think they are
> too expensive!
>
> Man, I can't wait until April!

I wasn't claiming they were reasonably priced. I think they're
incredibly expensive for what you get, but the barographs were
outrageous. A clock, a pen, and a rubber bellows for $1000, wow!


Shawn

[Ian]

On 12 Feb, 10:37, "Bert Willing" >
wrote:
> What a nonsense, Ian. In the ancient times, people wanting to get a badge
> needed to buy a barograph and a camera, and if I recall correctly, they
> weren't cheap - typically more expensive than a logger today.
> So, what changed is the technology, not the price tag.

Sure, barographs were expensive. Cameras less so - Instamatic 110
cartridge jobs were never up there in Hasselblad range.

But lots of us have mechanical barographs. Thousands and thousands of
us have mechanical barographs. Would it really be so awful to allow us
to keep using them? To a Ventus owner a flight recorder is lost in the
noise. To a Pirat jockey such as myself it's pushing 25% of the value
of the glider.

Ian

[[email protected]]

On Feb 11, 10:03*am, Nyal Williams
> wrote:
> Oh?
>
> What about those contest pilots who have lost whole
> days because they screwed up using a CFR?
>
> - Show quoted text -

Key here is "THEY" screwed up. It's rarely a hardware problem. With
turnpoint camera and baro attempts, the film processors can screw you
up, the OO can forget one little mark on the trace that will cost you
a badge, the canopy mark (impossible to verify until the film is
developed) might not show up, or might obscure your picture, the
clockwork mechanism of the baro itself can hang up. On top of that,
you need to calibrate the baro twice as often, and I've had a mis-
marked calibration trace cost me a badge leg too.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 11, 11:13 pm, " >
wrote:
> On Feb 12, 6:56 am, Shawn > wrote:
>
> > mreyes wrote:
> > > I do agree that data loggers are too expensive, however IIRC new
> > > Winter barographs were over $600 even 20 years ago.
>
> > About $1100 in current dollars, according tohttp://www.bls.gov/cpi/
> > (search the page for the word "calculator").
>
> > Shawn
>
> So now we need to quit complaining about the cost of "flight
> recorders" as we now have officially been "complaining" about it for
> ever! Nope, I guess it's not going to happen, I still think they are
> too expensive!
>
> Man, I can't wait until April!
>
> Bob

Hey - I just sold a GPS-NAV for $500 and there's one for sale for $550
on ras. What are you complaining about???

Steve

[Ian]

On 13 Feb, 01:12, wrote:
> On Feb 11, 10:03 am, Nyal Williams

> > What about those contest pilots who have lost whole
> > days because they screwed up using a CFR?

> Key here is "THEY" screwed up. It's rarely a hardware problem. With
> turnpoint camera and baro attempts, the film processors can screw you
> up, the OO can forget one little mark on the trace that will cost you
> a badge, the canopy mark (impossible to verify until the film is
> developed) might not show up, or might obscure your picture, the
> clockwork mechanism of the baro itself can hang up. On top of that,
> you need to calibrate the baro twice as often, and I've had a mis-
> marked calibration trace cost me a badge leg too.

All good points - and electronics, as we all know, never go wrong. But
that aside, I simply can't see the point of banning older forms of
flight verification (I believe we're losing ground observers as
well).

One answer, of course, is for another authority besides the FAI to
issue badges.

Ian

[Tony Verhulst]

Ian wrote:
I simply can't see the point of banning older forms of
> flight verification (I believe we're losing ground observers as
> well).


You understand of course that whatever they may say, they're really
doing it for convenience - *their* convenience.


> One answer, of course, is for another authority besides the FAI to
> issue badges.


Like that will ever happen.

Tony V.

[John Smith]

Ian wrote:

> Thousands and thousands of us have mechanical barographs.

I doubt.

[Ian]

On 13 Feb, 15:00, Tony Verhulst > wrote:
> Ian wrote:

> > flight verification (I believe we're losing ground observers as
> > well).
>
> You understand of course that whatever they may say, they're really
> doing it for convenience - *their* convenience.

Of course.

> > One answer, of course, is for another authority besides the FAI to
> > issue badges.
>
> Like that will ever happen.

Nothing to stop it. And while it's about it, the new badges could be
handicap linked. Silver in 50:1 is just taking the mickey.

Ian

[Ian]

On 13 Feb, 16:03, John Smith > wrote:
> Ian wrote:
> > Thousands and thousands of us have mechanical barographs.
>
> I doubt.

We may not use 'em, but we have 'em.

ian

[Tim Mara]

Ian is likely correct....
Thousands have been sold....I know Replogel alone sold "to date" 3010 ...not
many of these flying off the shelves today but I bet 90% of the ones sold
are still out there sitting on someone's shelves
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"John Smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ian wrote:
>
>> Thousands and thousands of us have mechanical barographs.
>
> I doubt.

[Ian]

On 13 Feb, 17:54, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> Ian is likely correct....
> Thousands have been sold....I know Replogel alone sold "to date" 3010 ...not
> many of these flying off the shelves today but I bet 90% of the ones sold
> are still out there sitting on someone's shelves
> tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
> > Ian wrote:
>
> >> Thousands and thousands of us have mechanical barographs.
>
> > I doubt.

[Ian]

On 13 Feb, 17:54, "Tim Mara" > wrote:

> Thousands have been sold....I know Replogel alone sold "to date" 3010 ...not
> many of these flying off the shelves today but I bet 90% of the ones sold
> are still out there sitting on someone's shelves

I just checked ... OK number 571 is on a shelf three feet from where
I'm sitting.

Ian

[[email protected]]

On Feb 13, 12:30*pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 13 Feb, 17:54, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
> > Thousands have been sold....I know Replogel alone sold "to date" 3010 ....not
> > many of these flying off the shelves today but I bet 90% of the ones sold
> > are still out there sitting on someone's shelves
>
> I just checked ... OK number 571 is on a shelf three feet from where
> I'm sitting.
>
> Ian

.... and my smoke on foil clockwork wonder is resting in its shipping
box at home. Perhaps I'll send it off for calibration for 'one more
year' of use!
I believe the original subject was about cost of CFRs. Yes, they're
too high, but so are transceiver, transponders, etc. In my personal
experience over the last seven years (that's all the time I've been
flying) my fellow club members and I have purhased 4 bits of glider
electronics. Three radios and one transponder. Of these four high
priced items, 100% had issues that required manufacturer repair. IMO
$1,500 for a 5 watt transceiver is a lot of money for such incredibly
bad Qaulity Control. If these were consumer electronics, the
manufacturers would both be out of business.

[Papa3]

On Feb 13, 4:47*pm, wrote:
> On Feb 13, 12:30*pm, Ian > wrote:
>
> > On 13 Feb, 17:54, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
> > > Thousands have been sold....I know Replogel alone sold "to date" 3010 ....not
> > > many of these flying off the shelves today but I bet 90% of the ones sold
> > > are still out there sitting on someone's shelves
>
> > I just checked ... OK number 571 is on a shelf three feet from where
> > I'm sitting.
>
> > Ian
>
> .... and my *smoke on foil clockwork wonder is resting in its shipping
> box at home. *Perhaps I'll send it off for calibration for 'one more
> year' of use!
> * I believe the original subject was about cost of CFRs. *Yes, they're
> too high, but so are transceiver, transponders, etc. *In my personal
> experience over the last seven years (that's all the time I've been
> flying) my fellow club members and I have purhased 4 bits of glider
> electronics. *Three radios and one transponder. *Of these four high
> priced items, 100% had issues that required manufacturer repair. *IMO
> $1,500 for a 5 watt transceiver is a lot of money for such incredibly
> bad Qaulity Control. *If these were consumer electronics, the
> manufacturers would both be out of business.

I've dropped my Garmin 76 out of the cockpit onto the runway. It slid
off the dashboard numerous times while I was using it for retrieve
duty. My son got hold of it when I left it on the dining room table
and used it as a walkie-talkie while playing space explorer with his
friends. Still tickin'. There's a lot to be learned from high-
volume manufacturing in electronics.

One of the problems we've created with the reliance on what amounts to
a cottage industry (ie. glider instrument manufacturing) is the fact
that you are pretty much ****-outta-luck if your high-priced gizmo
craps out on you the day before a big event. If I accidentally run
over my Garmin, I can go to any Walmart (or EU equivalent) and pick
one up for a hundred and fifty bucks. If my FunkenFlugen 12000G
craps out, I'm out of business for minimum 3 weeks while it wends its
way over the Pond to Slovenia and back (not to mention being out more
than the cost of the Garmin for shipping alone).

Okay, the above is a bit tongue-in-cheek. We need both COTs and IGC-
Secure loggers for different reasons. They just need to peacefully
coexist

[Ben]

Ian wrote:
> On 13 Feb, 15:00, Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>
>>Ian wrote:
>
>
>>>flight verification (I believe we're losing ground observers as
>>>well).
>>
>>You understand of course that whatever they may say, they're really
>>doing it for convenience - *their* convenience.
>
>
> Of course.
>
>
>>>One answer, of course, is for another authority besides the FAI to
>>>issue badges.
>>
>>Like that will ever happen.
>
>
> Nothing to stop it. And while it's about it, the new badges could be
> handicap linked. Silver in 50:1 is just taking the mickey.
>
> Ian

You could pretty much do this using the OLC, which already allows you to
submit flight tracings using COTS GPS hardware like the Etrex, or from a
free PDA based GPS program like "Soaring Pilot". Admittedly, they give
you a "blue V" instead of a "green V" like with the IGC approved
recorders, but who cares? Somebody could set up a program to award
badges to people who want them using those tracings. No IGC would be
needed, and they would also already be handicapped by the OLC. The
Etrex, being self contained, would be very portable from one
club sailplane to another.