Seaplane Landing Direction ?

[Robert11]

Hi,

Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land in a
sea with waves running fairly close together ?

e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this would
be along the trough of the wave) or does he
attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?

My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing into
the wind.

But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used for
sailboats
if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking wave.

Any explanations would be appreciated.

Thanks,
bob

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 17, 11:14*am, "Robert11" > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land in a
> sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>
> e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this would
> be along the trough of the wave) or does he
> attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>
> My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing into
> the wind.
>
> But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used for
> sailboats
> if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking wave.
>
> Any explanations would be appreciated.

Few "sea planes" are capable of operating in open sea. Usually we're
flying from lakes. Some guys do fly from salt water but usually in
bays, not open water. I'm sure the old clipper ships probably had no
problem with open sea though.

-Robert

[Bob Gardner]

If you mean a floatplane, no one is going to land one in open water if he
expects to see home again. Flying boats/hulls, like the SA-16 Albatross, try
to land on the back of a swell and take off parallel to the swells. Not for
amateurs, that's for sure.

Bob Gardner


"Robert11" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land in
> a
> sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>
> e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this
> would
> be along the trough of the wave) or does he
> attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>
> My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing into
> the wind.
>
> But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used for
> sailboats
> if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking wave.
>
> Any explanations would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> bob
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Feb 17, 2:55 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> If you mean a floatplane, no one is going to land one in open water if he
> expects to see home again. Flying boats/hulls, like the SA-16 Albatross, try
> to land on the back of a swell and take off parallel to the swells. Not for
> amateurs, that's for sure.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Robert11" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land in
> > a
> > sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>
> > e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this
> > would
> > be along the trough of the wave) or does he
> > attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>
> > My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing into
> > the wind.
>
> > But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used for
> > sailboats
> > if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking wave.
>
> > Any explanations would be appreciated.
>
> > Thanks,
> > bob

Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
be pushed a bit?

[[email protected]]

On Feb 17, 2:55 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> If you mean a floatplane, no one is going to land one in open water if he
> expects to see home again. Flying boats/hulls, like the SA-16 Albatross, try
> to land on the back of a swell and take off parallel to the swells. Not for
> amateurs, that's for sure.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Robert11" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land in
> > a
> > sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>
> > e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this
> > would
> > be along the trough of the wave) or does he
> > attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>
> > My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing into
> > the wind.
>
> > But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used for
> > sailboats
> > if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking wave.
>
> > Any explanations would be appreciated.
>
> > Thanks,
> > bob

On third thought. Could you take the engines from an Otter (or hell,
take the otter airframe and adapt it) and mate them to a Catalina? Is
a turbo prop seaplane a bad idea? The Caravan has a float plane
variant...but thats definetly for sheltered waters.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in
:

> On Feb 17, 2:55 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>> If you mean a floatplane, no one is going to land one in open water
>> if he expects to see home again. Flying boats/hulls, like the SA-16
>> Albatross, try to land on the back of a swell and take off parallel
>> to the swells. Not for amateurs, that's for sure.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>
>> "Robert11" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > Hi,
>>
>> > Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes
>> > land in a
>> > sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>>
>> > e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion
>> > (this would
>> > be along the trough of the wave) or does he
>> > attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>>
>> > My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a
>> > landing into the wind.
>>
>> > But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling"
>> > used for sailboats
>> > if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a
>> > breaking wave.
>>
>> > Any explanations would be appreciated.
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > bob
>
> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
> be pushed a bit?
>

Wel, I rea an occount of a takeoff of a Catalina in very high seas. they
used jato bottles as well and the account was HAIRY!
Gordon Taylor's autobigraphy...



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in news:4626c3bf-6156-408a-9f99-0a185a86e454
@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

>
>> > bob
>
>

Quite a few Goose's and Mallards have been converted.



Bertie

[Bob Gardner]

Google "SA-16" and you will read some interesting stories. Also read AIM
6-3-3. The Coast Guard put them down in rescue situations, which for those
involved is just like wartime...the word in the old Coast Guard was "You
have to go out, you don't have to come back." I had a buddy who got a medal
for fitting a JATO bottle to a UF (CG version of the SA-16) in heavy seas.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
...
> On Feb 17, 2:55 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>> If you mean a floatplane, no one is going to land one in open water if he
>> expects to see home again. Flying boats/hulls, like the SA-16 Albatross,
>> try
>> to land on the back of a swell and take off parallel to the swells. Not
>> for
>> amateurs, that's for sure.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>
>> "Robert11" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > Hi,
>>
>> > Probably a silly questio, but I was wondering about how seaplanes land
>> > in
>> > a
>> > sea with waves running fairly close together ?
>>
>> > e.g., does the pilot try to put down parallel to the wave motion (this
>> > would
>> > be along the trough of the wave) or does he
>> > attempt to go perpendicular to the trough on landing ?
>>
>> > My "guess" is that the second is correct, as this would be a landing
>> > into
>> > the wind.
>>
>> > But, this would possibly be analogous to the term "pitch-poling" used
>> > for
>> > sailboats
>> > if they are flipped fore and aft by heading directly into a breaking
>> > wave.
>>
>> > Any explanations would be appreciated.
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > bob
>
> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
> be pushed a bit?

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Google "SA-16" and you will read some interesting stories. Also read AIM
> 6-3-3. The Coast Guard put them down in rescue situations, which for those
> involved is just like wartime...the word in the old Coast Guard was "You
> have to go out, you don't have to come back." I had a buddy who got a medal
> for fitting a JATO bottle to a UF (CG version of the SA-16) in heavy seas.


My father flew SA-16s out of Otis AFB on Cape Cod for the 46th Air Rescue
Squadronin the late 50s. In fact, one of my earliest memories as a kid was of
my dad putting a headset on me so I could converse with Mickey Mouse in the
cockpit of my dad's Albatross. It wasn't until much later that I found out that
it was a cooperative crew member at another duty station. But I digress.

If you have any specific questions about the SA-16 I'd be glad to ask him what
he remembers about it. He was flying a lot in those days as he was under some
time constraints to earn his command pilot wings or give up his flying status.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

On 18 Feb, 02:48, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> wrote in news:4626c3bf-6156-408a-9f99-0a185a86e454
> @c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> >> > bob
>
> Quite a few Goose's and Mallards have been converted.
>
> Bertie

"Native" turbine flying boat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-12

Be-10 was pure jet but appears not to have entered service.
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/RAM/be-10.html

[kontiki]

wrote:
>
> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
> be pushed a bit?

Yes, they did push the envelope many times during WWII in attempt
to rescue downed pilots and crew. I recall reading about one such
incident where the PBY was damaged while landing in rough seas,
rescued the crew but could not take off due to the damage. They were
able to taxi for a day or two until they reach a safe location.

[xxx]

On Feb 18, 4:55 am, wrote:
> On 18 Feb, 02:48, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > wrote in news:4626c3bf-6156-408a-9f99-0a185a86e454
> > @c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > >> > bob
>
> > Quite a few Goose's and Mallards have been converted.
>
> > Bertie
>

There is a plan to start producing new turbine-powered Geese:

http://www.antillesseaplanes.com/index.htm

I'd love to see it happen, but I won't be either investing my
retirement money in it or holding my
breath waiting for them to start coming off the production line.

[Blueskies]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
> be pushed a bit?


Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from Doolittle's raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and
so many folks needed a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up 'taxiing' to safety with folks all over the plane,
some even out on the wings...

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in
:

>
> > wrote in message
> .
> ..
>>
>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
>> be pushed a bit?
>
>
> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from Doolittle's
> raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so many folks needed
> a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up 'taxiing' to safety with
> folks all over the plane, some even out on the wings...
>
>

No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew B-25's


Bertie

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 18, 6:50*pm, xxx > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 4:55 am, wrote:
>
> > On 18 Feb, 02:48, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > > wrote in news:4626c3bf-6156-408a-9f99-0a185a86e454
> > > @c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > >> > bob
>
> > > Quite a few Goose's and Mallards have been converted.
>
> > > Bertie
>
> There is a plan to start producing new turbine-powered Geese:
>
> http://www.antillesseaplanes.com/index.htm
>
> I'd love to see it happen, but I won't be either investing my
> retirement money in it or holding my
> breath waiting for them to start coming off the production line.

The Goose is nice, but the PBY is a thing of beauty, and it is a tri-
gear, not that I have anything against tail-draggers.

Wil

[Blueskies]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message .. .
> "Blueskies" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> .
>> ..
>>>
>>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
>>> be pushed a bit?
>>
>>
>> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from Doolittle's
>> raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so many folks needed
>> a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up 'taxiing' to safety with
>> folks all over the plane, some even out on the wings...
>>
>>
>
> No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew B-25's
>
>
> Bertie
>

Yes, B-25s...and I don't know where I got that PBY story, but it happened somewhere in WWII...Maybe Kontiki's account is
the beginning of it...

[Blueskies]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message .. .
> "Blueskies" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> .
>> ..
>>>
>>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the envelope
>>> be pushed a bit?
>>
>>
>> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from Doolittle's
>> raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so many folks needed
>> a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up 'taxiing' to safety with
>> folks all over the plane, some even out on the wings...
>>
>>
>
> No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew B-25's
>
>
> Bertie
>

Yea, it would be a pretty neat trick to get a b-26 off a carrier without a shot...

[Mike Beede]

In article >,
"Blueskies" > wrote:

> >> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from Doolittle's
> >> raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so many folks needed
> >> a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up 'taxiing' to safety with
> >> folks all over the plane, some even out on the wings...
> >>
> >>
> >
> > No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew B-25's
> >
> >
> > Bertie
> >
>
> Yes, B-25s...and I don't know where I got that PBY story, but it happened somewhere in WWII...Maybe Kontiki's account is
> the beginning of it...

Not a PBY, but I saw a photo of a Kingfisher that rescued a PBY crew and couldn't
take off. They were picked up by Tang off of Truk. Here's the page with the
photo (search for "Kingfisher") <http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08306.htm>
or here directly to skip past the caption <http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0830603.jpg>.

Mike Beede

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Blueskies wrote:
> Yes, B-25s...and I don't know where I got that PBY story, but it happened
> somewhere in WWII...Maybe Kontiki's account is the beginning of it...


Maybe you're thinking of the rescue of the USS Indianapolis's crew....



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in
et:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Blueskies" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> news:44c498cc-452f-4804-a667-a1556c536eb4
@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.co
>>> m. ..
>>>>
>>>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>>>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the
>>>> envelope be pushed a bit?
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from
>>> Doolittle's raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so
>>> many folks needed a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up
>>> 'taxiing' to safety with folks all over the plane, some even out on
>>> the wings...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew
>> B-25's
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> Yes, B-25s...and I don't know where I got that PBY story, but it
> happened somewhere in WWII...Maybe Kontiki's account is the beginning
> of it...
>
>

Oh I'm sure there's lots of them. But those B-25s were flying off the
edge of the earth, basically.

If you want a good read, read "Thirty seconds over Tokyo". It's an
absolutely fantastic story.
And now you've got me thinking I'd like to read a bit about Catalina
operations.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in
et:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Blueskies" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> news:44c498cc-452f-4804-a667-a1556c536eb4
@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.co
>>> m. ..
>>>>
>>>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>>>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the
>>>> envelope be pushed a bit?
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from
>>> Doolittle's raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so
>>> many folks needed a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up
>>> 'taxiing' to safety with folks all over the plane, some even out on
>>> the wings...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew
>> B-25's
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> Yea, it would be a pretty neat trick to get a b-26 off a carrier
> without a shot...
>

From what I've heard about them, I would think so!
Bob Heever got one of a beach in Italy during WW2. It was real short.
They took everythign they could off of it and put only enough fuel in to
get it to a strip close by.
Doolittle had a lot of trouble with the introduction of the B26 amongst
his crews in North Africa. They were intimidated by it's high wing
loading and the resultant high approach and liftoff speeds. His solutin
was to take one up and put on a display for them. IIRC, he looped it at
ground level and feathered one at the top of the loop, then proceeded to
do a series of low level aerobatic manuevers with one out. his plan
worked.


Bertie

[Blueskies]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message .. .
> "Blueskies" > wrote in
> et:
>
>>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> "Blueskies" > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> news:44c498cc-452f-4804-a667-a1556c536eb4
> @o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.co
>>>> m. ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Similar to the PBY 5 catalina? Just curious as I'm wondering what
>>>>> the flight conditions would be like in war time...would the
>>>>> envelope be pushed a bit?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remember the story about the PBY that picked up folks from
>>>> Doolittle's raid over Japan? So many of the B-26s ditched and so
>>>> many folks needed a ride, that they couldn't take off. Ended up
>>>> 'taxiing' to safety with folks all over the plane, some even out on
>>>> the wings...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> No Catalinas picked up anyone from Doolittle's raid. And they flew
>>> B-25's
>>>
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>>
>>
>> Yes, B-25s...and I don't know where I got that PBY story, but it
>> happened somewhere in WWII...Maybe Kontiki's account is the beginning
>> of it...
>>
>>
>
> Oh I'm sure there's lots of them. But those B-25s were flying off the
> edge of the earth, basically.
>
> If you want a good read, read "Thirty seconds over Tokyo". It's an
> absolutely fantastic story.
> And now you've got me thinking I'd like to read a bit about Catalina
> operations.


I pulled "Thirty seconds over Tokyo" off the library shelf back in 6th grade or so. Yes, very interesting story....

[Blueskies]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message .. .
>>>
>>
>> Yea, it would be a pretty neat trick to get a b-26 off a carrier
>> without a shot...
>>
>
> From what I've heard about them, I would think so!
> Bob Heever got one of a beach in Italy during WW2. It was real short.
> They took everythign they could off of it and put only enough fuel in to
> get it to a strip close by.
> Doolittle had a lot of trouble with the introduction of the B26 amongst
> his crews in North Africa. They were intimidated by it's high wing
> loading and the resultant high approach and liftoff speeds. His solutin
> was to take one up and put on a display for them. IIRC, he looped it at
> ground level and feathered one at the top of the loop, then proceeded to
> do a series of low level aerobatic manuevers with one out. his plan
> worked.
>
>
> Bertie

Yea, it was a good bird if flown within its limits (just like any other?), but I still don't think one all loaded up
could get off a carrier...

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in
t:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, it would be a pretty neat trick to get a b-26 off a carrier
>>> without a shot...
>>>
>>
>> From what I've heard about them, I would think so!
>> Bob Heever got one of a beach in Italy during WW2. It was real short.
>> They took everythign they could off of it and put only enough fuel in
>> to get it to a strip close by.
>> Doolittle had a lot of trouble with the introduction of the B26
>> amongst his crews in North Africa. They were intimidated by it's high
>> wing loading and the resultant high approach and liftoff speeds. His
>> solutin was to take one up and put on a display for them. IIRC, he
>> looped it at ground level and feathered one at the top of the loop,
>> then proceeded to do a series of low level aerobatic manuevers with
>> one out. his plan worked.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Yea, it was a good bird if flown within its limits (just like any
> other?), but I still don't think one all loaded up could get off a
> carrier...
>
>

I wouldn't think so, unless it was a real fast carrier!

I wonder what one on a treadmill would be like.

Bertie