Compass

[[email protected]]

Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. The
minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?

[Todd]

As best I can tell, the answer appears to be no. My ASW20 has one but
I don't think I have ever looked at it.

A review of the FAR's turns up the following "compass" or "direction
indicator" citations:

91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S.
airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a
standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation
described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that
aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those
paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation,
and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable
condition.

(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the
following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

But this section applies to POWERED AIRCRAFT

---OR---

PART 23--AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND
COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
Subpart F--Equipment
§ 23.1303 Flight and navigation instruments.
The following are the minimum required flight and navigation
instruments:
(a) An airspeed indicator.
(b) An altimeter.
(c) A direction indicator (nonstabilized magnetic compass).

But this will not apply you are not an AIRPLANE

So unless someone can come up with a reference to gliders or aircraft,
my vote is that the "direction indicator" is not required, unless
otherwise required by the manufacturer certification.

The FAR's are searchable online here:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

[Greg Arnold]

In Bob Carlton's Convention talk about ramp checks, he said that gliders
are not required to have a compass. However, sometimes the
airworthiness document requires one. See, for example, the type
certificate data sheet for the ASW-27 at http://tinyurl.com/2qpqhr.



Todd wrote:
> As best I can tell, the answer appears to be no. My ASW20 has one but
> I don't think I have ever looked at it.
>
> A review of the FAR's turns up the following "compass" or "direction
> indicator" citations:
>
> 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S.
> airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
>
> (a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
> section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a
> standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation
> described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that
> aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those
> paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation,
> and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable
> condition.
>
> (b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the
> following instruments and equipment are required:
> (1) Airspeed indicator.
> (2) Altimeter.
> (3) Magnetic direction indicator.
>
> But this section applies to POWERED AIRCRAFT
>
> ---OR---
>
> PART 23--AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND
> COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
> Subpart F--Equipment
> § 23.1303 Flight and navigation instruments.
> The following are the minimum required flight and navigation
> instruments:
> (a) An airspeed indicator.
> (b) An altimeter.
> (c) A direction indicator (nonstabilized magnetic compass).
>
> But this will not apply you are not an AIRPLANE
>
> So unless someone can come up with a reference to gliders or aircraft,
> my vote is that the "direction indicator" is not required, unless
> otherwise required by the manufacturer certification.
>
> The FAR's are searchable online here:
>
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

[thermalrider]

On Feb 17, 5:48*pm, wrote:
> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?


What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
What does the Type Certificate say?

[Bullwinkle]

On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
,
"thermalrider" > wrote:

> On Feb 17, 5:48*pm, wrote:
>> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
>> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
>
> What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> What does the Type Certificate say?


Why would someone not want a compass?

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 18, 11:33*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
> Why would someone not want a compass?

Because, except in the case of total GPS failure, or the rare case
that a glider is given an ATC heading vector, they are a waste of
panel space?

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 18, 10:25*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> *However, sometimes the
> airworthiness document requires one. *See, for example, the type
> certificate data sheet for the ASW-27 athttp://tinyurl.com/2qpqhr.

Interestingly the ASW-28 TCDS issued later does not list a compass in
the equipment list.

For an experimental glider, even if here is a standard type
certificate and associated TCDS, I don't think the TCDS applies.
Minimum equipment may be listed in the experimental certification docs
(operational limitations) but that may depend the date of the
airworthiness inspection and the region in which it was conducted.
Recent experimental glider cert docs seem to be more standardized than
they were when the ASW-20 was new.

Andy

[Bill Daniels]

"Bullwinkle" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> ,
> "thermalrider" > wrote:
>
>> On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. The
>>> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>>
>>
>> What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
>> What does the Type Certificate say?
>
>
> Why would someone not want a compass?
>

Because, at least in my case, heading is less interesting than ground track
displayed by a GPS. I carry a handheld GPS as a backup. I have no compass.

Bill D

[John Smith]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> Because, at least in my case, heading is less interesting than ground track
> displayed by a GPS. I carry a handheld GPS as a backup. I have no compass.

In my case, I do not carry a handheld backup GPS. I was happy to have a
working compass available twice so far.

[Bullwinkle]

On 2/18/08 12:30 PM, in article
, "Bill Daniels"
<bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:

>
> "Bullwinkle" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
>> ,
>> "thermalrider" > wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>>> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. The
>>>> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>>>
>>>
>>> What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
>>> What does the Type Certificate say?
>>
>>
>> Why would someone not want a compass?
>>
>
> Because, at least in my case, heading is less interesting than ground track
> displayed by a GPS. I carry a handheld GPS as a backup. I have no compass.
>
> Bill D
>
>

OK. To each his own.

Personally, I am happy to have the basics. If all the electronics go, I can
still get home the old-fashioned way.

[Tim Taylor]

On Feb 18, 11:33 am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
> On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> ,
>
> "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
> >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. The
> >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> Why would someone not want a compass?

Out here in the mountain west we don't need no stink'n compass, just
look out the window ;-).

[Nyal Williams]

Consider the 2-33: standard category; not experimental.
Not a one was delivered with a compass and compass
is not mentioned in the equipment list. Not an X/C
machine by any stretch, though a few have been used
for Silver X/C. It's being standard category settles
the legality question.

At 00:44 19 February 2008, Tim Taylor wrote:
>On Feb 18, 11:33 am, Bullwinkle wrote:
>> On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
>>
>>>,
>>
>> 'thermalrider' wrote:
>> > On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>> >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to
>>>>be legal. The
>> >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify
>>>>a compass?
>>
>> > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
>> > What does the Type Certificate say?
>>
>> Why would someone not want a compass?
>
>Out here in the mountain west we don't need no stink'n
>compass, just
>look out the window ;-).
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Check the operating limitations. Mine (Experimental Amatuer Built)
says something like this:

"Must be equipped in accordance with 91.205"

So even though 91.205 does not apply to gliders, my glider is required
to have all of the required equipment in 91.205, within reason (oil
temperature and pressure not required!).

I suspect you are Experimental Exhibition? Maybe if your Operating
Limitations say something like:

"Must be equipped in accordance with ASW20B flight manual"

Then you are legal with no compass.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 18, 12:03*pm, Andy > wrote:
> Minimum equipment may be listed in the experimental certification docs
> (operational limitations) but that may depend the date of the
> airworthiness inspection and the region in which it was conducted.


When I got home I checked my ASW-28 (experimental exhibition/ air
racing) operating limitations issued May 2002. They state:

37. After completion of the flight test phase, unless appropriately
equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205,
this aircraft is to be operated under day/vfr.

38. Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under 91.205
must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the applicable
requirments of Parts 43 and 91.....

I found no other refence to required instruments. I conclude that I
am not required to have a compass since it is not required by the
TCDS, the operational limitations, or the LBA approved flight
handbook.

I do have a panel mounted compass but it will go if I need the space
for an other instrument.

Andy

[Ramy]

On Feb 18, 10:33*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
> On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> ,
>
> "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > On Feb 17, 5:48*pm, wrote:
> >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
> >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> Why would someone not want a compass?

Since it either takes space in the panel or worse, restrict forward
visibility if installed on the glare shield.
The ASW27 manual does NOT list compass as required instrument.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 1:55*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 11:33*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>
> > Why would someone not want a compass?
>
> Because, except in the case of total GPS failure, or the rare case
> that a glider is given an ATC heading vector, they are a waste of
> panel space?
>
> Andy

You can fly wings level in IMC using a standard compass. Not with GPS.

[John Smith]

wrote:

> You can fly wings level in IMC using a standard compass. Not with GPS.

The eternal theory. Have you actually done it in a modern slippery glass
ship? I certainly couldn't, but maybe I'm just ham fisted.

[chipsoars]

On Feb 21, 3:29*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 10:33*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>
> > On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> > ,
>
> > "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > > On Feb 17, 5:48*pm, wrote:
> > >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
> > >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> > Why would someone not want a compass?
>
> Since it either takes space in the panel or worse, restrict forward
> visibility if installed on the glare shield.
> The ASW27 manual does NOT list compass as required instrument.
>
> Ramy

The manual may not, but the Equipment list in TCDS dated January 30,
1997 requires "1 Magnetic direction indicator (Compass)"

[Bill Daniels]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> wrote:
>
>> You can fly wings level in IMC using a standard compass. Not with GPS.
>
> The eternal theory. Have you actually done it in a modern slippery glass
> ship? I certainly couldn't, but maybe I'm just ham fisted.

Actually, you can maintain wings level with either, given a sufficient level
of skill. Garmin, I believe, sells a unit with an impressive "gyro panel"
based entirely on GPS data that works amazingly well.

With a wet compass, it's not extremely difficult to maintain heading and
wings level once the glider is stabilized on a magnetic south heading.
Getting it to that heading inside a turbulent cloud is a whole 'nuther
matter. If you get more than 15 - 20 degrees off a south heading, the trick
no longer works so turbulence is a real problem.

Yes, I've done both in a glider, under a "hood" with a safety pilot in the
other seat who held a CFII. This is the ONLY way to try this.

Bill D

[John Smith]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> If you get more than 15 - 20 degrees off a south heading, the trick
> no longer works so turbulence is a real problem.

That's what I call theoretically perfect but unusable in real life.

The emergency procedure to escape a cloud without a gyro is to trim the
glider for slow straight flight, pull the airbrakes fully open, let go
of the stick and wait until you drop out of that cloud *somehow*. That's
why JAR requires the dive brakes to keep the dive speed under Vne for
dive angles up to 45 degrees.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 23, 9:19 am, John Smith > wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > If you get more than 15 - 20 degrees off a south heading, the trick
> > no longer works so turbulence is a real problem.
>
> That's what I call theoretically perfect but unusable in real life.
>
> The emergency procedure to escape a cloud without a gyro is to trim the
> glider for slow straight flight, pull the airbrakes fully open, let go
> of the stick and wait until you drop out of that cloud *somehow*. That's
> why JAR requires the dive brakes to keep the dive speed under Vne for
> dive angles up to 45 degrees.

That assumes the glider is stable in a benign spiral, not all are.
There is no requirement for the glider to be so. Try it out in
whatever particular glider(s) you fly before assuming it will work. I
happen to fly an ASH-26E and I can tell you my glider will not benign
spiral, other pilots have also come to the same conclusion with their
ASH-26E.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 23, 7:40 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
> > wrote:
>
> >> You can fly wings level in IMC using a standard compass. Not with GPS.
>
> > The eternal theory. Have you actually done it in a modern slippery glass
> > ship? I certainly couldn't, but maybe I'm just ham fisted.
>
> Actually, you can maintain wings level with either, given a sufficient level
> of skill. Garmin, I believe, sells a unit with an impressive "gyro panel"
> based entirely on GPS data that works amazingly well.
>
> With a wet compass, it's not extremely difficult to maintain heading and
> wings level once the glider is stabilized on a magnetic south heading.
> Getting it to that heading inside a turbulent cloud is a whole 'nuther
> matter. If you get more than 15 - 20 degrees off a south heading, the trick
> no longer works so turbulence is a real problem.
>
> Yes, I've done both in a glider, under a "hood" with a safety pilot in the
> other seat who held a CFII. This is the ONLY way to try this.
>
> Bill D

Any of the current Garmin x96 series have the GPS derived "Instrument
Panel", as has been pointed out here before by Bumper and others the
danger with these devices is they use ground speed and change in
ground speed, not airspeed to calculate the panel display and in
extreme cases such as flying a glider in strong wind/wave conditions
the "instruments" may not work correctly, including possible reversal
of some instruments. Only worth mentioning as being enveloped in a
lennie or trapped on top in wave conditions may be one of the
unintended IMC situations worth worrying about.

Darryl

[John Smith]

Darryl Ramm wrote:

> That assumes the glider is stable in a benign spiral, not all are.

Correct. But it's the only method which *may* work. If it doesn't,
you're out of luck without a gyro. That "fly south and use the turn
error of the whisky compass to keep the wings level" just doesn't work
in real life. Of course it does't harm to try it first, but don't let it
fool you to think that you could rely on it.

[Bill Daniels]

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
> On Feb 23, 7:40 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> "John Smith" > wrote in message
>>
>> . ..
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> You can fly wings level in IMC using a standard compass. Not with GPS.
>>
>> > The eternal theory. Have you actually done it in a modern slippery
>> > glass
>> > ship? I certainly couldn't, but maybe I'm just ham fisted.
>>
>> Actually, you can maintain wings level with either, given a sufficient
>> level
>> of skill. Garmin, I believe, sells a unit with an impressive "gyro
>> panel"
>> based entirely on GPS data that works amazingly well.
>>
>> With a wet compass, it's not extremely difficult to maintain heading and
>> wings level once the glider is stabilized on a magnetic south heading.
>> Getting it to that heading inside a turbulent cloud is a whole 'nuther
>> matter. If you get more than 15 - 20 degrees off a south heading, the
>> trick
>> no longer works so turbulence is a real problem.
>>
>> Yes, I've done both in a glider, under a "hood" with a safety pilot in
>> the
>> other seat who held a CFII. This is the ONLY way to try this.
>>
>> Bill D
>
> Any of the current Garmin x96 series have the GPS derived "Instrument
> Panel", as has been pointed out here before by Bumper and others the
> danger with these devices is they use ground speed and change in
> ground speed, not airspeed to calculate the panel display and in
> extreme cases such as flying a glider in strong wind/wave conditions
> the "instruments" may not work correctly, including possible reversal
> of some instruments. Only worth mentioning as being enveloped in a
> lennie or trapped on top in wave conditions may be one of the
> unintended IMC situations worth worrying about.
>
> Darryl
>
All good points.

I guess, I'd set up the glider for a benign spiral with spoilers out and
trimmed for 55-60 and then attempt to hold a south heading with the wet
compass. If I lost it, I'd just let go and hope the benign spiral worked.
If I had a Germin with the "panel" and knew the winds were light, I'd try
using that too with a benign spiral as the backup.

Bill D

[bagmaker]

The emergency procedure to escape a cloud without a gyro is to trim the
glider for slow straight flight, pull the airbrakes fully open, let go
of the stick and wait until you drop out of that cloud *somehow*. That's
why JAR requires the dive brakes to keep the dive speed under Vne for
dive angles up to 45 degrees.[/QUOTE]

so, let me get this right-

your actually already in the cloud (blinded, conditions turbulent)
and THEN you trim for slow, straight flight?!

Who wrote that bit of emergency procedure?

Bagger

[John Smith]

bagmaker wrote:

> your actually already in the cloud (blinded, conditions turbulent)
> and THEN you trim for slow, straight flight?!
>
> Who wrote that bit of emergency procedure?

I did. I don't know about you, but *I* do know the approximate trim
positions of the gliders which I fly. Approximate is good enough in that
situation.

[JJ Sinclair]

> your actually already in the cloud (blinded, conditions turbulent)
> and THEN you trim for slow, straight flight?!
>
> Who wrote that bit of emergency procedure?
>
> Bagger

Good point there Bagger, one should trim for 60ish speed before going
IFR. I did this in a 301 Libelle for a good 45 minutes, trimmed her up
for 60 knots and then released the stick and took my feet off the
rudder pedals. I was not in the clouds, just checking the idea out.
The nose would slowly drop, but as speed increased, the nose came back
up. Then the speed would get real slow, but not stall, just mush over
and start the next vertical maneuver. As this was going on, one wing
would slowly drop, but never more than 45 degrees, then slowly come
back up. My heading was all over the sky. Worked well in a H-301
Libelle, best to give it a try in your bird before you really need it.
JJ

[bumper]

Boy oh boy . . . I'm not sure if some of you have your head in the clouds or
your head in the sand (g).

If everything is nice and smooth, like in stable air trying to descend
through a socked-in cloud deck below . . . probably okay, maybe. Spinning
down works in some aircraft too, as long as your really sure about ceiling
height and terrain.

But in moderate to severe turbulence while in the soup, good luck and
hopefully you'll have good hull insurance and a even better parachute.

If you even remotely contemplate the possibility of going IMC in your
glider, accidentally or otherwise, then at least get a gyro instrument (or
electronic equivalent - - I have a TruTrak) and some under the hood or
better, actual instrument training. If you don't go for the full power and
instrument rating, then ask the instructor to concentrate on partial panel
unusual attitude recovery. Even though you won't be looking outside, it
should be a real eye opener for those benign spiral / follow the compass
south believers.

Disclaimer . . . not saying spiral, spin, compass aren't options, just that
they're not so good in some of the stuff gliders can get into.

fly safe,

bumper

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> bagmaker wrote:
>
>> your actually already in the cloud (blinded, conditions turbulent)
>> and THEN you trim for slow, straight flight?!
>>
>> Who wrote that bit of emergency procedure?
>
> I did. I don't know about you, but *I* do know the approximate trim
> positions of the gliders which I fly. Approximate is good enough in that
> situation.

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> your actually already in the cloud (blinded, conditions turbulent)
>> and THEN you trim for slow, straight flight?!
>>
>> Who wrote that bit of emergency procedure?
>>
>> Bagger
>
> Good point there Bagger, one should trim for 60ish speed before going
> IFR. I did this in a 301 Libelle for a good 45 minutes, trimmed her up
> for 60 knots and then released the stick and took my feet off the
> rudder pedals. I was not in the clouds, just checking the idea out.
> The nose would slowly drop, but as speed increased, the nose came back
> up. Then the speed would get real slow, but not stall, just mush over
> and start the next vertical maneuver. As this was going on, one wing
> would slowly drop, but never more than 45 degrees, then slowly come
> back up. My heading was all over the sky. Worked well in a H-301
> Libelle, best to give it a try in your bird before you really need it.
>
I've tried that in my H.201, but not for so long.

Full forward trim on mine gives between 50 and 55 kts (last W&B in
flying trim with parachute on showed the CG to be a bit behind the
middle of the allowed range). It built up to a stable +/- 5 kt speed
swing as the phugoid appeared. I kept my feet on the pedals - she just
stayed pretty straight with little if any footwork being necessary. Must
try it again, though I do have a T&B installed in case I might need it
some day.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Smith]

bumper wrote:

> Boy oh boy . . . I'm not sure if some of you have your head in the clouds or
> your head in the sand (g).

Boy oh boy... do you really read a post before you're answering to it
(g)? If you had followed this thread, then you'd know that this is
exactly what I wrote.

This discussion started when I wrote that "the whisky compass method
doesn't work in real life". I added that if you ever manage to be in a
situation where you need an emergency descent through IMC, then the only
procedure which may work is the one I mentioned. I repeat: *emergency
procedure* and *may*. BTW, many modern gliders will go from a spin into
a spiral dive after a couple of turns, so that old "spin it down"
emergenca procedure is a no-no in modern ships, and is actually
explicitely forbidden in some POHs for that very reason.

[bumper]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
. ..

>
> Boy oh boy... do you really read a post before you're answering to it (g)?
> If you had followed this thread, then you'd know that this is exactly what
> I wrote.
>
> This discussion started when I wrote that "the whisky compass method
> doesn't work in real life". I added that if you ever manage to be in a
> situation where you need an emergency descent through IMC, then the only
> procedure which may work is the one I mentioned. I repeat: *emergency
> procedure* and *may*. BTW, many modern gliders will go from a spin into a
> spiral dive after a couple of turns, so that old "spin it down" emergenca
> procedure is a no-no in modern ships, and is actually explicitely
> forbidden in some POHs for that very reason.

Sorry 'bout that.

I had read the whole thread, but took your last response to bagmaker's post
out of context. No offense intended.

bumper

[Ramy]

On Feb 23, 6:20*am, chipsoars > wrote:
> On Feb 21, 3:29*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 18, 10:33*am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>
> > > On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> > > ,
>
> > > "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > > > On Feb 17, 5:48*pm, wrote:
> > > >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
> > > >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > > > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > > > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> > > Why would someone not want a compass?
>
> > Since it either takes space in the panel or worse, restrict forward
> > visibility if installed on the glare shield.
> > The ASW27 manual does NOT list compass as required instrument.
>
> > Ramy
>
> The manual may not, but the Equipment list in TCDS dated January 30,
> 1997 requires "1 Magnetic direction indicator (Compass)"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hmm, my ASW27A manual dated January 20, 1997, section 2.12, listed
compass as required only in Belgium or France, or for cloud flying.
Otherwise only an ASI, Altimeter and safety harness is required as
minimum equipment. So according to the manual, compass is not required
in USA.

Ramy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 25, 8:08 pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Feb 23, 6:20 am, chipsoars > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 3:29 pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 18, 10:33 am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>
> > > > On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> > > > ,
>
> > > > "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
> > > > >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. The
> > > > >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > > > > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > > > > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> > > > Why would someone not want a compass?
>
> > > Since it either takes space in the panel or worse, restrict forward
> > > visibility if installed on the glare shield.
> > > The ASW27 manual does NOT list compass as required instrument.
>
> > > Ramy
>
> > The manual may not, but the Equipment list in TCDS dated January 30,
> > 1997 requires "1 Magnetic direction indicator (Compass)"- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hmm, my ASW27A manual dated January 20, 1997, section 2.12, listed
> compass as required only in Belgium or France, or for cloud flying.
> Otherwise only an ASI, Altimeter and safety harness is required as
> minimum equipment. So according to the manual, compass is not required
> in USA.
>
> Ramy

The point was, regardless of the manual according the the
airworthiness certificate it is required, see

http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/f7caac07cc44fd7b86256cc30058c999/$FILE/G05ce.PDF

Unless you are running it as experimental I'm pretty sure this applies
to your ship. I'll have a spare compass for sale :-)

Darryl

[Ramy]

On Feb 26, 12:02*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Feb 25, 8:08 pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 23, 6:20 am, chipsoars > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 21, 3:29 pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 18, 10:33 am, Bullwinkle > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 2/18/08 10:30 AM, in article
> > > > > ,
>
> > > > > "thermalrider" > wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 17, 5:48 pm, wrote:
> > > > > >> Does an experimental ASW20B require a compass to be legal. *The
> > > > > >> minimum equipment list in the amnual does not specify a compass?
>
> > > > > > What does the POH say is the required minimum equipment?
> > > > > > What does the Type Certificate say?
>
> > > > > Why would someone not want a compass?
>
> > > > Since it either takes space in the panel or worse, restrict forward
> > > > visibility if installed on the glare shield.
> > > > The ASW27 manual does NOT list compass as required instrument.
>
> > > > Ramy
>
> > > The manual may not, but the Equipment list in TCDS dated January 30,
> > > 1997 requires "1 Magnetic direction indicator (Compass)"- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Hmm, my ASW27A manual dated January 20, 1997, section 2.12, *listed
> > compass as required only in Belgium or France, or for cloud flying.
> > Otherwise only an ASI, Altimeter and safety harness is required as
> > minimum equipment. So according to the manual, compass is not required
> > in USA.
>
> > Ramy
>
> The point was, regardless of the manual according the the
> airworthiness certificate it is required, see
>
> http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/...
>
> Unless you are running it as experimental I'm pretty sure this applies
> to your ship. I'll have a spare compass for sale :-)
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey Darryl, I'll pretend I did not read your reply so I can continue
to believe I am flying legally without a compass. As far as I am
concerned, my manual says I can, and if I am ever questioned about it
in a ramp check (how often do we get those anyway) I will show my
manual to the FAA inspector and while he is trying to figure out the
discrepancy I will waggle my rudder :-)

Ramy