NOTAM!

[MikeMl]

Airbus wrote:
> 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
> WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N 16317W 1909N
> 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N 17230W 2703N 17206W
> SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51
> 2008

Spy Satellite?

[muff528]

"MikeMl" > wrote in message ...
> Airbus wrote:
>> 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
>> WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N 16317W 1909N
>> 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N 17230W 2703N 17206W
>> SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51
>> 2008
>
> Spy Satellite?

Google "USA 193" Lots of interesting stuff.
TP

[Airbus[_4_]]

02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N 16317W 1909N
16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N 17230W 2703N 17206W
SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51
2008

[Denny]

I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...
So, the desire to destroy HAS to be based in other reasons...
At least the chinese were smart enough to take their shots in secret
and only announce AFTER they hit it...
But not our gov't and pentagon, nope, no waay, shoot their mouths off
ahead of time so we can look really stupid...

denny

[terry]

On Feb 20, 11:35*pm, Denny > wrote:
> I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
> shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
> So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
> Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
> 'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...
> So, the desire to destroy HAS to be based in other reasons...
> At least the chinese were smart enough to take their shots in secret
> and only announce AFTER they hit it...
> But not our gov't and pentagon, nope, no waay, shoot their mouths off
> ahead of time so we can look really stupid...

you want governments to do things in secret? Now thats not very
American.
why would missing the target make you look stupid?. hitting a small
object moving at 17000 mph would be one hell of an achievement if you
ask me. If it doesnt work the first time , have another go. You guys
put men on the moon for christ sake, no one laughs at America for its
technological ability. If you are really worried about the US being
a laughing stock, heres a tip from a foreigner, get yourself another
president ( democrat or republican - see, I am not being political )
terry

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 04:35:34 -0800 (PST), Denny > wrote:

> I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
> shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
> So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
> Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
> 'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...

Some of the hydrazine tanks from Space Shuttle Columbia survived to impact.

http://astroprofspage.com/archives/1516

As for failing in the eyes of the world, the US has already demonstrated its
ability to "shoot down" satellites. The USAF destroyed a satellite in the 1980s
using a missile launched from an F-15.

Ron Wanttaja

[Denny]

Terry,
Thanks for the comments
Yes, I want the US Gov't to have kept it's mouth shut until they
accomplished the deed... As you point out it will be a heck of an
accomplishment - which means it is hard, not easy... I feel they have
been spooked by the Chinese, so they feel they have to 'catch up'...
Same reponse to Sputnik in 57.. And if so, the odds are the early
going will be the same results..

This shot is more difficult than the chinese shot because it is a low
altitude, much higher closing velocity with far less time for the
missile to correct its path, a 'relatively' unstable orbital path
<much like riding a motorcyle on a rough, dirt road>, and thus similar
to shooting ducks passing in front of you on a windy, rainy, day...
Not easy...

Now having said that, I recognize that governments work in mysterious
ways and nothing is as it seems..

It could be that they have already done a covert shot on something and
have a certainty that this one will work... If so it is likely they
are taunting the Chinese by doing this shot so publically, proving
that our technology is still an order of magnitude ahead of theirs...

It could be that this shot is to divert all the earth radars and
satellite sensors into concentrating on this shot, so they will not
notice something else we are doing at the same time...

It could be they are up to something that is beyond my poor
imagination...

Or it could be, they have their heads up their butts like they seem to
do a high percentage of the time - which is what I fear...

Now, as to the next president: Yeah, yeah, yeah, rub it in...

<snip> of long, eloquent analysis of all the candidates after I
remembered that this is a group post, not private email

<<sniff, sniif, and it was SO eloquent>>

denny

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> If you are really worried about the US being
> a laughing stock, heres a tip from a foreigner, get yourself another
> president ( democrat or republican - see, I am not being political )

Funny thing is, many Americans were saying the same thing with Mr. Clinton.

Sad thing is, we can't vote for "None of the Above". The candidates in the
upcoming race merit no more than a yawn, a cringe, or a laugh. (I'll leave
it to you to assign the candidates! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
> WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N 16317W 1909N
> 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N 17230W 2703N 17206W
> SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51
> 2008

Ah, communication. Who *writes* these things? I can't even tell you what
state(s) this thing is talking about, without donning my pilots decoder
ring.

I still remember flying in the desert Southwest, far from home, and having a
briefer read a forest fire NOTAM to me in this sort of language, over the
radio. No reference to landmarks. No reference to cities. Just LAT/LON.
Useless.

Almost as bad are the ones that say "13 miles from the Blather VOR, on the
178 radial" -- leaving you to figure out where in hell the Blather VOR is...
Good luck finding it on your sectional chart, in flight, in the dark.

Is there some reason these things can't use commonly known landmarks
(cities, national parks, rivers, etc.) to communicate their message? Or
are we back to that "In the olden days, computer disk space was very
expensive, so we developed cryptic shorthand codes to enable us to deliver
lots of information" excuse -- even though I can now buy a terabyte hard
drive for a couple of hundred bucks at Best Buy?

The only worse example of communication in aviation (IMHO) is the IFR
student practicing approaches who announces their position to a full VFR
pattern by saying "I'm on the published missed for the GPS 25 approach".
Those words convey nothing to VFR pilots.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in <L2Xuj.41991$9j6.8650@attbi_s22>:

>The candidates in the
>upcoming race merit no more than a yawn, a cringe, or a laugh. (I'll leave
>it to you to assign the candidates! :-)


Mmm... Would that be a yawn at the thought of McCain's hawkish stand
and Bush endorsement (more of the same), a cringe at Huckabee's
Christian supremist agenda in persecution the Crusades, and a laugh at
Clinton's desperate reliance on feminine emotional displays to soften
here image in the public eye?



Oblig. Aviation Content:
Hydrazine doesn't seem like it would present too large of a problem if
it burned in the upper atmosphere. Does anyone know just how much
hydrazine is involved? Is the hazard more from a tank full of the
stuff making it to the surface intact?

It's interesting to learn that F16s crash with hydrazine aboard all
the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine
Hydrazine is the chemical compound with the empirical chemical
formula N2H4. Its formula can also be written as (NH2)2. It is
widely used in chemical synthesis and is a component in some
rocket fuels. With an ammonia-like odor, hydrazine has a liquid
range and density similar to those of water.


Safety
Hydrazine is highly toxic and dangerously unstable, especially in
the anhydrous form. Symptoms of acute exposure to high levels of
hydrazine in humans may include irritation of the eyes, nose, and
throat, dizziness, headache, nausea, pulmonary edema, seizures,
coma, and it can also damage the liver, kidneys, and central
nervous system. The liquid is corrosive and may produce dermatitis
from skin contact in humans and animals. Effects to the lungs,
liver, spleen, and thyroid have been reported in animals
chronically exposed to hydrazine via inhalation. Increased
incidences of lung, nasal cavity, and liver tumors have been
observed in rodents exposed to hydrazine.[16]


Other industrial uses
Hydrazine is used in many processes including: production of
spandex fibers, as a polymerization catalyst; a blowing agent; in
fuel cells, solder fluxes; and photographic developers, as a chain
extender in urethane polymerizations, and heat stabilizers. In
addition, a semiconductor deposition technique using hydrazine has
recently been demonstrated, with possible application to the
manufacture of thin-film transistors used in liquid crystal
displays. Hydrazine in a 70% hydrazine, 30% water solution is used
--> to power the EPU (emergency power unit) on the F-16 fighter plane.
The explosive Astrolite is made by combining hydrazine with
ammonium nitrate.


Rocket fuel
Hydrazine was first used as a rocket fuel during World War II for
the Messerschmitt Me 163B (the first rocket-powered fighter
plane), under the name B-Stoff (hydrazine hydrate). If mixed with
methanol (M-Stoff) and water it is called C-Stoff.

Hydrazine is also used as a low-power monopropellant for the
maneuvering thrusters of spacecraft, and the Space Shuttle's
Auxiliary Power Units. In addition, monopropellant
hydrazine-fueled rocket engines are often used in terminal descent
of spacecraft. A collection of such engines was used in both
Viking program landers as well as the Phoenix lander launched in
August 2007.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:25:20 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Hydrazine doesn't seem like it would present too large of a problem if
> it burned in the upper atmosphere. Does anyone know just how much
> hydrazine is involved?

Half a ton. Probably frozen solid, but without telemetry, there's no way to
tell.

> Is the hazard more from a tank full of the stuff making it to the
> surface intact?

I'd suspect the problem is if it makes it intact. The Wikipedia article refers
to its use in the Me-163 Komet of WWII. The plane occasionally *dissolved*
pilots during accidents....

Ron Wanttaja

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:gpXuj.42015$9j6.32075@attbi_s22...
>>
>> 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
>> WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W >> 2352N 16317W 1909N
>> 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W >> 2031N 17230W 2703N
>> 17206W SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18
>> FEB 12:51 2008
>
> Ah, communication. Who *writes* these things? I can't even tell you
> what state(s) this thing is talking about, without donning my pilots
> decoder ring.
>

You shouldn't have to study it very long to realize the area described is in
the Pacific Ocean and the only US state in the general vicinity is Hawaii.


>
> I still remember flying in the desert Southwest, far from home, and having
> a briefer read a forest fire NOTAM to me in this sort of language, over
> the radio. No reference to landmarks. No reference to cities. Just
> LAT/LON. Useless.
>

It's not useless if you carry charts.


>
> Almost as bad are the ones that say "13 miles from the Blather VOR, on the
> 178 radial" -- leaving you to figure out where in hell the Blather VOR
> is... Good luck finding it on your sectional chart, in flight, in the
> dark.
>

Why would you have to find Blather VOR at all? If you know where you are
and you can't find Blather VOR anyehere near your position or route you know
the NOTAM doesn't affect you.


>
> Is there some reason these things can't use commonly known landmarks
> (cities, national parks, rivers, etc.) to communicate their message?
>

That would make locating them more difficult.

[Darkwing]

"Denny" > wrote in message
...
> Terry,
> Thanks for the comments
> Yes, I want the US Gov't to have kept it's mouth shut until they
> accomplished the deed... As you point out it will be a heck of an
> accomplishment - which means it is hard, not easy... I feel they have
> been spooked by the Chinese, so they feel they have to 'catch up'...
> Same reponse to Sputnik in 57.. And if so, the odds are the early
> going will be the same results..


PBS just had a NOVA documentary on Sputnik and the US side of the story. We
had a Redstone rocket ready to go BEFORE Sputnik but egos got in the way and
the Russians beat us to it. It was a really good program though.

[Blueskies]

"Denny" > wrote in message ...
>I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
> shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
> So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
> Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
> 'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...
> So, the desire to destroy HAS to be based in other reasons...
> At least the chinese were smart enough to take their shots in secret
> and only announce AFTER they hit it...
> But not our gov't and pentagon, nope, no waay, shoot their mouths off
> ahead of time so we can look really stupid...
>
> denny

Only in your own mind...

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Mmm... Would that be a yawn at the thought of McCain's hawkish stand
> and Bush endorsement (more of the same), a cringe at Huckabee's
> Christian supremist agenda in persecution the Crusades, and a laugh at
> Clinton's desperate reliance on feminine emotional displays to soften
> here image in the public eye?

I wasn't even considering Huckabee.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 20, 10:10*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY RESERVATION
> > WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N 16317W 1909N
> > 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N 17230W 2703N 17206W
> > SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51
> > 2008
>
> Ah, communication. * Who *writes* these things? * I can't even tell you what
> state(s) this thing is talking about, without donning my pilots decoder
> ring.
>
> I still remember flying in the desert Southwest, far from home, and having a
> briefer read a forest fire NOTAM to me in this sort of language, over the
> radio. *No reference to landmarks. *No reference to cities. *Just LAT/LON.
> Useless.
>
> Almost as bad are the ones that say "13 miles from the Blather VOR, on the
> 178 radial" -- leaving you to figure out where in hell the Blather VOR is....
> Good luck finding it on your sectional chart, in flight, in the dark.
>
> Is there some reason these things can't use commonly known landmarks
> (cities, national parks, rivers, etc.) to communicate their message? * Or
> are we back to that "In the olden days, computer disk space was very
> expensive, so we developed cryptic shorthand codes to enable us to deliver
> lots of information" excuse -- even though I can now buy a terabyte hard
> drive for a couple of hundred bucks at Best Buy?
>
> The only worse example of communication in aviation (IMHO) is the IFR
> student practicing approaches who announces their position to a full VFR
> pattern by saying "I'm on the published missed for the GPS 25 approach".
> Those words convey nothing to VFR pilots.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

It is to separate the men from the boys Jay. <g>

Wil

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 20, 7:35*am, Denny > wrote:
> I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
> shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
> So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
> Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
> 'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...
> So, the desire to destroy HAS to be based in other reasons...
> At least the chinese were smart enough to take their shots in secret
> and only announce AFTER they hit it...
> But not our gov't and pentagon, nope, no waay, shoot their mouths off
> ahead of time so we can look really stupid...
>
> denny

It was a hit! No worries mate.

Wil

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23265613/

Navy missile hits spy satellite
Extraordinary operation requires steady seas and optimum positioning


WASHINGTON - A missile launched from a Navy ship successfully struck
a
dying U.S. spy satellite passing 130 miles over the Pacific on
Wednesday, a defense official said.


Two officials said the missile was launched successfully just after
10:30 p.m. ET. One official, who is close to the process, said it hit
the target. He said details on the results were not immediately
known.


The goal in this first-of-its-kind mission for the Navy was not just
to hit the satellite but to obliterate a tank aboard the spacecraft
carrying 1,000 pounds of a toxic fuel called hydrazine.


U.S. officials have said the fuel would pose a potential health
hazard
to humans if it landed in a populated area. Although the odds of that
were small even if the Pentagon had chosen not to try to shoot down
the satellite, it was determined that it was worth trying to
eliminate
even that small chance.


Officials said it might take a day or longer to know for sure if the
toxic fuel was blown up.


The government has organized hazardous materials teams to be flown to
the site of any dangerous or otherwise sensitive debris that might
land in the U.S. or elsewhere. The operation was so extraordinary,
with such intense international publicity and political
ramifications,
that Defense Secretary Robert Gates -- not a military commander --
made
the final decision to pull the trigger.


The U.S. government organized hazardous materials teams, under the
code name "Burnt Frost," to be flown to the site of any dangerous or
otherwise sensitive debris that might land in the United States or
elsewhere.


High seas in the north Pacific had threatened to postpone the launch
as the USS Lake Erie prepared a three-stage missile. Beyond a certain
point, rough seas can interfere with the cruiser's launch procedures.


The NAvy launched a SM-3 missile 130 miles to just beyond the edge of
the Earth's atmosphere in an attempt to speed its non-explosive
warhead directly into the satellite.


Early in the day, a senior military officer said it did not look as
if
the weather would be good enough. That was shortly after the space
shuttle Atlantis landed, removing the last safety issue for the
military to begin determining the best moment for launch.


The aim was not just to hit the bus-sized satellite -- which would
burn
up upon re-entering the atmosphere anyway -- but to obliterate a tank
onboard that is carrying 1,000 pounds of hydrazine, a toxic fuel. The
fuel, unused because the satellite died shortly after reaching orbit
in December 2006 -- could be hazardous if it landed in a populated
area.


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued a health
bulletin saying that the health risk from satellite debris was
considered to be low. "However, CDC is encouraging health officials
and clinicians to review information about the health effects related
to hydrazine to prepare in case their communities are affected by
satellite debris."


In a routine precaution, notifications have been issued worldwide to
mariners and aviators to stay clear of an area in the Pacific where
the satellite debris might fall. The military has calculated that the
risk to aviation is so low that U.S. and international aviation
officials decided not to reroute air traffic, a senior military
officer said Wednesday.


The shootdown, which was approved by President George W. Bush, is
seen
by some as blurring the lines between defending against a hostile
long-
range missile and targeting satellites in orbit.


Much of the equipment used in the satellite shootdown was part of the
Pentagon's missile defense system, a far-flung network of
interceptors, radars and communications systems designed primarily to
hit an incoming hostile ballistic missile fired at the United States
by North Korea. The equipment, including the Navy missile, has never
been used against a satellite or other such target.


The three-stage Navy missile has chalked up a high rate of success in
tests since 2002 -- in each case targeting a short- or medium-range
missile. A hurry-up program to adapt the missile for this anti-
satellite mission was completed in a matter of weeks; Navy officials
say the changes will be reversed once this satellite is down.


Left alone, the satellite would have been expected to hit Earth
during
the first week of March. About half of the 5,000-pound spacecraft
would be expected to survive its blazing descent through the
atmosphere and would scatter debris over several hundred miles.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:46:49 -0800 (PST), William Hung
> wrote:


>WASHINGTON - A missile launched from a Navy ship successfully struck
>a
>dying U.S. spy satellite passing 130 miles over the Pacific on
>Wednesday, a defense official said.

Dying? That sucker was deat a week after they launched it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-02-20 04:35:34 -0800, Denny > said:

> I have a bad feeling about the military's intent to publically take a
> shot at it... dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumber - and likely to fail...
> So, here we go again, the laughing stock of the world...
> Also, totally unnecessary as the heat of reentry will set off the
> 'toxic' hypergolic fuel leaving nothing but scrap metal to impact...
> So, the desire to destroy HAS to be based in other reasons...
> At least the chinese were smart enough to take their shots in secret
> and only announce AFTER they hit it...
> But not our gov't and pentagon, nope, no waay, shoot their mouths off
> ahead of time so we can look really stupid...
>
> denny

No, you are speaking only for yourself...
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:gpXuj.42015$9j6.32075@attbi_s22:

>

> The only worse example of communication in aviation (IMHO) is the IFR
> student practicing approaches who announces their position to a full
> VFR pattern by saying "I'm on the published missed for the GPS 25
> approach". Those words convey nothing to VFR pilots.


Oh great, another perambulating menace.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:gpXuj.42015$9j6.32075@attbi_s22:

>> 02/062 (A0038/08) - AIRSPACE CARF NR. 90 ON EVELYN STATIONARY
>> RESERVATION WITHIN AN AREA BNDD BY 3145N 17012W 2824N 16642W 2352N
>> 16317W 1909N 16129W 1241N 16129W 1239N 16532W 1842N 17057W 2031N
>> 17230W 2703N 17206W SFC-UNL. 21 FEB 02:30 2008 UNTIL 21 FEB 05:00
>> 2008. CREATED: 18 FEB 12:51 2008
>
> Ah, communication. Who *writes* these things? I can't even tell
> you what state(s) this thing is talking about, without donning my
> pilots decoder ring.



Just had to read this again to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.

jesus wept.


bertie

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 21, 10:34*pm, Roger > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:46:49 -0800 (PST), William Hung
>
> > wrote:
> >WASHINGTON - A missile launched from a Navy ship successfully struck
> >a
> >dying U.S. spy satellite passing 130 miles over the Pacific on
> >Wednesday, a defense official said.
>
> Dying? *That sucker was deat a week after they launched it.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Just saw the footage this morning on FOX. Pretty cool shot or was
that file footage of some a Patriot vs Scud over Bagdad? lol

Wil