Starting a 135 op?

[Dan[_1_]]

All,

Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
such an endeavor? If so, how many hours would one require (from a
realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
operation?

Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?

I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
Alaska doing just this same thing, right?

--Dan

[kontiki]

Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
> IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
> considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
> such an endeavor? If so, how many hours would one require (from a
> realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
> operation?
>
> Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?
>
> I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
> Alaska doing just this same thing, right?
>
> --Dan
>

It *could* be practical if a series of circumstances existed for
you such as: a) you have a ready, reliable and not too expensive
IA/A&P that can work with you and keep you flying, b) you have
a customer (or customers) that will guarantee you have work for
the foreseeable future and c) you are happy working long and/or
weird hours worrying about things that could go wrong for little
money.

[Denny]

On Feb 20, 1:04*am, Dan > wrote:
> All,
>
> Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
> IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
> considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
> such an endeavor? *If so, how many hours would one require (from a
> realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
> operation?
>
> Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?
>
> I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
> Alaska doing just this same thing, right?
>
> * * * * --Dan

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 19, 10:04*pm, Dan > wrote:
> All,
>
> Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
> IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
> considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
> such an endeavor? *If so, how many hours would one require (from a
> realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
> operation?
>
> Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?

I have a friend that has been doing this for many years. It probably
helps that he has over 20,000 hours and has held his 135 certificate,
accident free, for 20 years. I don't think the FAA is the biggest
thing to overcome, there are some canned 135 ops manuals you can get.
What may ultimately kill my friend's 135 operation is the drug
requirements. He currently pays to have his main IA receive regular,
FAA approved, drug screening. However, every other mechanic that works
on the plane needs the same, including the avionics shop. I was down
at the avionics shop and they said they are considering dropping their
drug testing program for their 135 customers (only my friend now).
Their concern is that if they are missing one poster on their employee
posting board the FAA can fine them $35,000. They said that would put
them out of business and its just not worth it for a couple 135
customers.

-Robert, CFII

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:

> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
> belly up...
>
> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>
> denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

--Dan

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
>:

>Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
>think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
>better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. Think about it. In twenty years, you'll have more money
than you'll know what to do with, and owning some acreage with a
private airstrip, hangar, and an airplane will be affordable for you.
My 2¢

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 2:40*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
> investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
> in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
> be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
> like 80%. *Think about it. *In twenty years, you'll have more money
> than you'll know what to do with, and owning some acreage with a
> private airstrip, hangar, and an airplane will be affordable for you.
> * My 2¢

By the time you add property taxes, insurance, the time spent dealing
with tenants, etc. could you really beat out other investments such as
stocks and other equities?

The closest I've come to real-estate so far are REITs. Has the method
you described above worked for you? What is your average annual rate
of return?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
> >:
>
> >Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> >think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> >better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
>
> If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
> investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
> in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
> be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
> like 80%. *

What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too? You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

-Robert

[Marty Shapiro]

Dan > wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

> On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:
>
>> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
>> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
>> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
>> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
>> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
>> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
>> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
>> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
>> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
>> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
>> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
>> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
>> belly up...
>>
>> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
>> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
>> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
>> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
>> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
>> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
>> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
>> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
>> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>>
>> denny
>
> Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. Apparently aviation and
> successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
> picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
> why anyone goes into aviation.
>
> I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
> when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
> making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). I'm trying to plan out how
> I might prepare for doing something in aviation.
>
> Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
> better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
> I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. I prefer cross country flights
> with a definate destination.
>
> --Dan
>
>

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 3:46*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

>
> What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too? You could put
> it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
> into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??
>
> -Robert

Here's my recommendation - buy Garmin (GRMN). It's on "sale" right
now. Forward PE = 14 with a huge growth rate.

We all know that Garmin dominates the aviation GPS and avionics
market, but their automotive products are top notch as well.

--Dan

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro >
wrote:
> Dan > wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:
>
> >> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
> >> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
> >> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
> >> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
> >> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
> >> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
> >> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
> >> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
> >> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
> >> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
> >> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
> >> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
> >> belly up...
>
> >> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
> >> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
> >> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
> >> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
> >> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
> >> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
> >> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
> >> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
> >> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>
> >> denny
>
> > Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
> > successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
> > picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
> > why anyone goes into aviation.
>
> > I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
> > when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
> > making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
> > I might prepare for doing something in aviation.
>
> > Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> > think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> > better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
> > I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
> > with a definate destination.
>
> > *--Dan
>
> I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
> one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
> become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.
>
> --
> Marty Shapiro
> Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> (remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

--Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dan > wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
> > :
>
> > > On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:
>
> > >> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
> > >> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
> > >> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
> > >> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
> > >> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
> > >> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
> > >> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
> > >> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
> > >> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
> > >> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
> > >> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
> > >> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
> > >> belly up...
>
> > >> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
> > >> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
> > >> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
> > >> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
> > >> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
> > >> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
> > >> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
> > >> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
> > >> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>
> > >> denny
>
> > > Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
> > > successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
> > > picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
> > > why anyone goes into aviation.
>
> > > I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
> > > when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
> > > making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
> > > I might prepare for doing something in aviation.
>
> > > Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> > > think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> > > better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
> > > I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
> > > with a definate destination.
>
> > > *--Dan
>
> > I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
> > one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
> > become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.
>
> > --
> > Marty Shapiro
> > Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> > (remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
> good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
> to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>> >Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
>> >think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
>> >better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
>>
>> If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
>> investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
>> in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
>> be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
>> like 80%. *
>
>What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too?

Huh? That's the whole point.

Let's use $100,000 as the home price. If the real estate appreciates
at 10% annually, with a 20% down payment (the equity), you are able to
realize a gain of, not 10% of $20,000 ($2,000), but 10% of $100,000
($10,000) annually.

>You could put
>it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
>into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

For the appreciation in property value. The rent payment just covers
your costs (approximately) over the life of the investment.

Real estate goes up and down, but over the long run, .... With the
rate of population growth worldwide, I don't see how it can miss. The
only true downside is the lack of liquidity, but that's not really an
issue for retirement income.

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:16:30 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:


>Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
>retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
>that helps.

Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
which have also now expired?

[Blueskies]

I have a friend that has been doing this for many years. It probably
helps that he has over 20,000 hours and has held his 135 certificate,
accident free, for 20 years. I don't think the FAA is the biggest
thing to overcome, there are some canned 135 ops manuals you can get.
What may ultimately kill my friend's 135 operation is the drug
requirements. He currently pays to have his main IA receive regular,
FAA approved, drug screening. However, every other mechanic that works
on the plane needs the same, including the avionics shop. I was down
at the avionics shop and they said they are considering dropping their
drug testing program for their 135 customers (only my friend now).
Their concern is that if they are missing one poster on their employee
posting board the FAA can fine them $35,000. They said that would put
them out of business and its just not worth it for a couple 135
customers.

-Robert, CFII


All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics shop
a repair station?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 20, 5:33*pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:

> All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics shop
> a repair station?

They said the testing (or at least the posters) were specific to the
135.

-Robert

[Blueskies]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 20, 5:33 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:

> All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics
> shop
> a repair station?

They said the testing (or at least the posters) were specific to the
135.

-Robert

I cannot find anything under part 145 about required drug testing. I'll bet you are right it is limited to stations that
support 135/121 air carriers...

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 5:41*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
> >> >:
>
> >> >Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> >> >think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> >> >better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
>
> >> If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
> >> investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
> >> in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
> >> be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
> >> like 80%. *
>
> >What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too?
>
> Huh? *That's the whole point. *
>
> Let's use $100,000 as the home price. *If the real estate appreciates
> at 10% annually, with a 20% down payment (the equity), you are able to
> realize a gain of, not 10% of $20,000 ($2,000), but 10% of $100,000
> ($10,000) annually.
>
> >You could put
> >it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
> >into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??
>
> For the appreciation in property value. *The rent payment just covers
> your costs (approximately) over the life of the investment. *
>
> Real estate goes up and down, but over the long run, .... *With the
> rate of population growth worldwide, I don't see how it can miss. *The
> only true downside is the lack of liquidity, but that's not really an
> issue for retirement income.

The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
accounting for inflation.

--Dan

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 5:16*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro >
> > wrote:
>
> > > Dan > wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
> > > :
>
> > > > On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:
>
> > > >> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
> > > >> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
> > > >> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
> > > >> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
> > > >> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
> > > >> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
> > > >> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
> > > >> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
> > > >> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
> > > >> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
> > > >> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
> > > >> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
> > > >> belly up...
>
> > > >> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
> > > >> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
> > > >> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
> > > >> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
> > > >> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
> > > >> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
> > > >> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
> > > >> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
> > > >> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>
> > > >> denny
>
> > > > Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
> > > > successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
> > > > picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
> > > > why anyone goes into aviation.
>
> > > > I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
> > > > when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
> > > > making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
> > > > I might prepare for doing something in aviation.
>
> > > > Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> > > > think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> > > > better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
> > > > I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
> > > > with a definate destination.
>
> > > > *--Dan
>
> > > I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
> > > one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
> > > become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.
>
> > > --
> > > Marty Shapiro
> > > Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> > > (remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
> > good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
> > to have the magic bullet of course.
>
> Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
> retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
> that helps.
>
> -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Virtually no jobs in the corporate world these days have a pension. I
don't feel sorry for the Southwest pilots.

--Dan

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:40:15 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
>:

>
>The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
>accounting for inflation.


To do as well in the stock market it would have to yield 25%
appreciation, unless you're buying on margin.....

[K l e i n]

On Feb 20, 6:31*pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:16:30 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
>
> > wrote:
> >Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
> >retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
> >that helps.
>
> Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
> which have also now expired?

I'd say that a good part of it was having management smart enough to
take advantage of real cheap long term fuel options. The options may
have expired, but the minds that charted that course are still there
and they'll find something new to do.

K l e i n

[K l e i n]

On Feb 20, 7:42*pm, Dan > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 5:16*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Dan > wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
> > > > :
>
> > > > > On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny > wrote:
>
> > > > >> Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
> > > > >> hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
> > > > >> different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
> > > > >> the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
> > > > >> operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
> > > > >> was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
> > > > >> was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
> > > > >> than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
> > > > >> with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
> > > > >> deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
> > > > >> him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
> > > > >> still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
> > > > >> belly up...
>
> > > > >> If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
> > > > >> you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
> > > > >> will be ready to live out of the airplane <yes, sleep in it> for a
> > > > >> week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
> > > > >> to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
> > > > >> have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
> > > > >> you won't destroy the plane <which means your family will have to
> > > > >> front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan> ...
> > > > >> Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!
>
> > > > >> denny
>
> > > > > Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
> > > > > successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
> > > > > picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
> > > > > why anyone goes into aviation.
>
> > > > > I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
> > > > > when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
> > > > > making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
> > > > > I might prepare for doing something in aviation.
>
> > > > > Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
> > > > > think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
> > > > > better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby..
> > > > > I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
> > > > > with a definate destination.
>
> > > > > *--Dan
>
> > > > I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
> > > > one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
> > > > become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Marty Shapiro
> > > > Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> > > > (remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
> > > good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
> > > to have the magic bullet of course.
>
> > Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
> > retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
> > that helps.
>
> > -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Virtually no jobs in the corporate world these days have a pension. *I
> don't feel sorry for the Southwest pilots.
>
> *--Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Pension? Don't give me no steeeking pension, give me stock options!

[Dan[_1_]]

On Feb 20, 8:13*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:40:15 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
> >:
>
>
>
> >The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
> >accounting for inflation.
>
> To do as well in the stock market it would have to yield 25%
> appreciation, unless you're buying on margin.....

We're getting off-topic here, but this is a interesting one...

I see your point, however this is based on the assumption that market
rent can pay for _all_ of the following.

1. Payments on an 80% LTV mortgage.
2. Property Taxes
3. Insurance (including liability risk)
4. Repairs, maintenance, and upkeep
5. Homeowners association bills (if applicable)
6. Property managment company (or you could handle the 3am calls
yourself)
7. Also pay for the carry time required when between renters
8. Real-estate commissions when it comes time to sell.

Can market rent pay for all of this? I doubt it, but honestly I have
not done extensive research. Is anyone doing this who cares to share
with the group? Granted, #6 could be done by the owner...

--Dan

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 21, 12:01*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 8:13*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:40:15 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
> > >:
>
> > >The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
> > >accounting for inflation.
>
> > To do as well in the stock market it would have to yield 25%
> > appreciation, unless you're buying on margin.....
>
> We're getting off-topic here, but this is a interesting one...
>
> I see your point, however this is based on the assumption that market
> rent can pay for _all_ of the following.
>
> 1. Payments on an 80% LTV mortgage.
> 2. Property Taxes
> 3. Insurance (including liability risk)
> 4. Repairs, maintenance, and upkeep
> 5. Homeowners association bills (if applicable)
> 6. Property managment company (or you could handle the 3am calls
> yourself)
> 7. Also pay for the carry time required when between renters
> 8. Real-estate commissions when it comes time to sell.
>
> Can market rent pay for all of this? *I doubt it, but honestly I have
> not done extensive research. *Is anyone doing this who cares to share
> with the group? Granted, #6 could be done by the owner...
>
> *--Dan

I have a rental unit that I purchased at the height of the RE boom.
Bought it 100% financed with a 10 year interest only loan. Now the
market has tanked. I owe much more than the property is worth. The
payment exceeds the rent that I can collect. The last renter skipped
out on the last 2 months' rent, took our couch and a vacuum cleaner.
This after she let her kids overflow the tub and flooded the kitchen's
ceiling. We patched and painted the ceiling ourselves, because the
handyman wanted much more than a fair price. This renter also killed
our washing machine by washing her kids $300/pair sneekers and a way
too big comforter and arearug in it. We ended up having to buy a new
set washer and dryer because we wanted someting that matched and also
knew that the dryer is pretty old.

The new tenants are good people, but the rent just wont cover the
mortgage payment, so we have negative cashflow every month and
negative equity to boot. Since the new tenant moved in, we had to
install a new hot water heater because the hot shower only lasted 5
minutes. The plumber said it was calsium buildup. Oh yea, we also
had replace the shower plumbing because the mixing valve stopped
mixing.

Other than that, RE is an excellent investment.

Wil

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:27:47 -0800 (PST), William Hung
> wrote in
>:

>I purchased at the height of the RE boom.
>Bought it 100% financed with a 10 year interest only loan.

That wasn't too smart.

[gatt[_2_]]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:27:47 -0800 (PST), William Hung
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>I purchased at the height of the RE boom.
>>Bought it 100% financed with a 10 year interest only loan.
>
> That wasn't too smart.


Wound, meet salt. Yeesh.

- c

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Peter Clark wrote:
>
>Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
>which have also now expired?

That has helped them make good profits in the last few years, but
Southwest's unparalleled success over the last 30 yrs. has been the result of
exceptional management. Unlike most other airlines, they identified a
market niche (cheap, short haul flights), formulated a plan to serve that
niche at a profit and stuck to the plan. They did not try to grow
themselves into a mega-airline, which has been the downfall of many start up
airlines that had some early successes.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200802/1

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:36:48 -0800, "gatt" >
wrote in >:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:27:47 -0800 (PST), William Hung
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>>>I purchased at the height of the RE boom.
>>>Bought it 100% financed with a 10 year interest only loan.
>>
>> That wasn't too smart.
>
>
>Wound, meet salt. Yeesh.

Yah, but I took Mr. Hung's comment to be a mild refutation of the
premise. Obviously I wasn't advocating buying at the top of the
market for no money down with a 10 year note, so ...

[Aluckyguess]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:40:15 -0800 (PST), Dan > wrote in
> >:
>
>>
>>The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
>>accounting for inflation.
>
>
> To do as well in the stock market it would have to yield 25%


90% of all Millionares did it in real estate.

[Aluckyguess]

I wanted to do this also. I registered www.jointhemilehighclub.com I had an
idea of going to carnivals putting up a booth and taking couples up getting
a mile above ground and letting them join the club. Give them some shirts
collect $500.00 and call it a day. That sounds like a fun job.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

aluckyguess wrote:
> I wanted to do this also. I registered www.jointhemilehighclub.com I had an
> idea of going to carnivals putting up a booth and taking couples up getting
> a mile above ground and letting them join the club. Give them some shirts
> collect $500.00 and call it a day. That sounds like a fun job.

One of our local FBO's did it with a Cherokee Six.

They cut a foam barrier out of egg crate / mattress pad foam that
velcro'ed in place behind the pilot. They tossed some big pillows and
stuff in the back, and booked "Sunset Love Flights"!

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 22, 7:35*am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> aluckyguess wrote:
> > I wanted to do this also. I registeredwww.jointhemilehighclub.comI had an
> > idea of going to carnivals putting up a booth and taking couples up getting
> > a mile above ground and letting them join the club. Give them some shirts
> > collect $500.00 and call it a day. That sounds like a fun job.
>
> One of our local FBO's did it with a Cherokee Six.
>
> They cut a foam barrier out of egg crate / mattress pad foam that
> velcro'ed in place behind the pilot. *They tossed some big pillows and
> stuff in the back, and booked "Sunset Love Flights"!

Was he successful? If so, I'm thinking of doing the samething for
simmers, "Mile High club, Simulated". This should bring in more profit
because the insurance would be cheaper, and just think of the fuel
cost! <g>

Wil

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 21, 4:08*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:27:47 -0800 (PST), William Hung
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >I purchased at the height of the RE boom.
> >Bought it 100% financed with a 10 year interest only loan.
>
> That wasn't too smart.

Shiite happens Larry, I didn't let it stop me.

Wil