Right Seat Learning

[[email protected]]

A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---

How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)

I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.

The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
PTS Comm standards.

After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....

Dan

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>
> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> PTS Comm standards.
>
> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>
> Dan

Flying from the right seat simply involves getting used to some new
peripheral cues as far as accurate reading of instruments and parallax
is concerned. It also involves a switch of hands for control use ( as a
CFI you better get used to having that left hand in the throttle READY
position :-)) and some adjustment in nose attitude vs horizon reference
in turns.
Switching seats should pose little problems that a good checkout with an
instructor completely familiar with the above issues can't straighten
out for you pretty quickly.
A little practice time and it will all fit into place.



--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 10:21 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> wrote:
> > A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> > How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> > right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>
> > I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> > as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> > The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> > PTS Comm standards.
>
> > After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>
> > Dan
>
> Flying from the right seat simply involves getting used to some new
> peripheral cues as far as accurate reading of instruments and parallax
> is concerned. It also involves a switch of hands for control use ( as a
> CFI you better get used to having that left hand in the throttle READY
> position :-)) and some adjustment in nose attitude vs horizon reference
> in turns.
> Switching seats should pose little problems that a good checkout with an
> instructor completely familiar with the above issues can't straighten
> out for you pretty quickly.
> A little practice time and it will all fit into place.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

You're right, but man those first few landings yesterday were dope
slaps. They weren't terrible (the owner who was riding in the left
seat would have stopped that!), but I knew they weren't right. Some
side loading, high flare, etc.

My first CFI dual time is scheduled this week and next. If the weather
allows (Which is doesn't look like it will) most dual will be in a
C172E with an aerobatics CFI to learn all the stupid pilot tricks and
recovery.

Next week is tailwheel time in a Champ or J-3 (whichever is available)

Dan

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 25, 10:21 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>>> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
>>> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>>> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
>>> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>>> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
>>> PTS Comm standards.
>>> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>>> Dan
>> Flying from the right seat simply involves getting used to some new
>> peripheral cues as far as accurate reading of instruments and parallax
>> is concerned. It also involves a switch of hands for control use ( as a
>> CFI you better get used to having that left hand in the throttle READY
>> position :-)) and some adjustment in nose attitude vs horizon reference
>> in turns.
>> Switching seats should pose little problems that a good checkout with an
>> instructor completely familiar with the above issues can't straighten
>> out for you pretty quickly.
>> A little practice time and it will all fit into place.
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> You're right, but man those first few landings yesterday were dope
> slaps. They weren't terrible (the owner who was riding in the left
> seat would have stopped that!), but I knew they weren't right. Some
> side loading, high flare, etc.
>
> My first CFI dual time is scheduled this week and next. If the weather
> allows (Which is doesn't look like it will) most dual will be in a
> C172E with an aerobatics CFI to learn all the stupid pilot tricks and
> recovery.
>
> Next week is tailwheel time in a Champ or J-3 (whichever is available)
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
You won't have any trouble. Just relax and be aware of the cue
differences and you'll do just fine.
I'm one of the "old school" instructors who believe that pilots should
learn to fly airplanes with a free throttle hand in mind at all times.
This means I've taught every pilot I've ever trained to have a hand on
the throttle from pattern altitude on down or the other way around.
As a CFI, this becomes especially important with a caveat. You shouldn't
have your hand actually ON the throttle, but it ABSOLUTELY MUST be in a
constant READY TO ACT relaxed position in case a correction is needed
down low, especially on landings.
This means you have to get used to flying with the right hand on the
yoke (assuming a side by side with a yoke installed). or on the stick if
so equipped.
There are TWO controls you must always be ready as a CFI to "correct"
instantly but not actually be riding on a student. They are equally
important, and are the rudder, and the throttle.
The depth in error before intervention down low for aileron is a wider
range than it is for either rudder or throttle.
Take your time and get used to flying from the right seat.


--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 11:17 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 10:21 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
> >>> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> >>> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
> >>> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> >>> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
> >>> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> >>> PTS Comm standards.
> >>> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
> >>> Dan
> >> Flying from the right seat simply involves getting used to some new
> >> peripheral cues as far as accurate reading of instruments and parallax
> >> is concerned. It also involves a switch of hands for control use ( as a
> >> CFI you better get used to having that left hand in the throttle READY
> >> position :-)) and some adjustment in nose attitude vs horizon reference
> >> in turns.
> >> Switching seats should pose little problems that a good checkout with an
> >> instructor completely familiar with the above issues can't straighten
> >> out for you pretty quickly.
> >> A little practice time and it will all fit into place.
>
> >> --
> >> Dudley Henriques
>
> > You're right, but man those first few landings yesterday were dope
> > slaps. They weren't terrible (the owner who was riding in the left
> > seat would have stopped that!), but I knew they weren't right. Some
> > side loading, high flare, etc.
>
> > My first CFI dual time is scheduled this week and next. If the weather
> > allows (Which is doesn't look like it will) most dual will be in a
> > C172E with an aerobatics CFI to learn all the stupid pilot tricks and
> > recovery.
>
> > Next week is tailwheel time in a Champ or J-3 (whichever is available)
>
> > Dan
>
> You won't have any trouble. Just relax and be aware of the cue
> differences and you'll do just fine.
> I'm one of the "old school" instructors who believe that pilots should
> learn to fly airplanes with a free throttle hand in mind at all times.
> This means I've taught every pilot I've ever trained to have a hand on
> the throttle from pattern altitude on down or the other way around.
> As a CFI, this becomes especially important with a caveat. You shouldn't
> have your hand actually ON the throttle, but it ABSOLUTELY MUST be in a
> constant READY TO ACT relaxed position in case a correction is needed
> down low, especially on landings.
> This means you have to get used to flying with the right hand on the
> yoke (assuming a side by side with a yoke installed). or on the stick if
> so equipped.
> There are TWO controls you must always be ready as a CFI to "correct"
> instantly but not actually be riding on a student. They are equally
> important, and are the rudder, and the throttle.
> The depth in error before intervention down low for aileron is a wider
> range than it is for either rudder or throttle.
> Take your time and get used to flying from the right seat.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Good advice!

The Vernier throttle on the A36 takes some practice -- it's a long
reach.

My primary CFI drilled the throttle thing into me by pulling it back
whenever I would drop my hand.

Dan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

" > wrote in news:4501fd99-b835-4e7a-
:

> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)


Took me about an hour, I think.
>
> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> PTS Comm standards.
>
> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....


Yeah, doesn't take long for rust to set in! If I haven't flown for a couple
of weeks I find myself loking at stuff in the cockpit and trying to
remember what it does.


Bertie

[kontiki]

wrote:
> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>
> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> PTS Comm standards.
>
> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>
> Dan

As I recall it took me about 10 hours to feel comfortable and competent
in the right hand seat. I am extremely right handed (I look like a freak
trying to throw a baseball with my left arm) so that may have been part
of it.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 12:07 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>
> Yeah, doesn't take long for rust to set in! If I haven't flown for a couple
> of weeks I find myself loking at stuff in the cockpit and trying to
> remember what it does.
>
> Bertie

True, that.

That probably explains 70% of the ugliness.

It's been a while since I've had that long a break...

This winter in the Pittsburgh area has been absolutely horrid.

Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 25, 6:50*am, " > wrote:
> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>
> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> PTS Comm standards.
>
> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....

I would say that it probably took me a good 8 hours to actually feel
comfortable flying from the right seat. You can learn that the vis
picture is different but there is something that just felt very odd at
first.

-Robert, CFII

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

" > wrote in
:

> On Feb 25, 12:07 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> > After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>>
>> Yeah, doesn't take long for rust to set in! If I haven't flown for a
>> couple of weeks I find myself loking at stuff in the cockpit and
>> trying to remember what it does.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> True, that.
>
> That probably explains 70% of the ugliness.
>
> It's been a while since I've had that long a break...
>
> This winter in the Pittsburgh area has been absolutely horrid.

The good news is it comes back pretty quick!


Bertie

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 25, 11:17 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Feb 25, 10:21 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>>>>> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
>>>>> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>>>>> I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
>>>>> as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>>>>> The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
>>>>> PTS Comm standards.
>>>>> After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>>>>> Dan
>>>> Flying from the right seat simply involves getting used to some new
>>>> peripheral cues as far as accurate reading of instruments and parallax
>>>> is concerned. It also involves a switch of hands for control use ( as a
>>>> CFI you better get used to having that left hand in the throttle READY
>>>> position :-)) and some adjustment in nose attitude vs horizon reference
>>>> in turns.
>>>> Switching seats should pose little problems that a good checkout with an
>>>> instructor completely familiar with the above issues can't straighten
>>>> out for you pretty quickly.
>>>> A little practice time and it will all fit into place.
>>>> --
>>>> Dudley Henriques
>>> You're right, but man those first few landings yesterday were dope
>>> slaps. They weren't terrible (the owner who was riding in the left
>>> seat would have stopped that!), but I knew they weren't right. Some
>>> side loading, high flare, etc.
>>> My first CFI dual time is scheduled this week and next. If the weather
>>> allows (Which is doesn't look like it will) most dual will be in a
>>> C172E with an aerobatics CFI to learn all the stupid pilot tricks and
>>> recovery.
>>> Next week is tailwheel time in a Champ or J-3 (whichever is available)
>>> Dan
>> You won't have any trouble. Just relax and be aware of the cue
>> differences and you'll do just fine.
>> I'm one of the "old school" instructors who believe that pilots should
>> learn to fly airplanes with a free throttle hand in mind at all times.
>> This means I've taught every pilot I've ever trained to have a hand on
>> the throttle from pattern altitude on down or the other way around.
>> As a CFI, this becomes especially important with a caveat. You shouldn't
>> have your hand actually ON the throttle, but it ABSOLUTELY MUST be in a
>> constant READY TO ACT relaxed position in case a correction is needed
>> down low, especially on landings.
>> This means you have to get used to flying with the right hand on the
>> yoke (assuming a side by side with a yoke installed). or on the stick if
>> so equipped.
>> There are TWO controls you must always be ready as a CFI to "correct"
>> instantly but not actually be riding on a student. They are equally
>> important, and are the rudder, and the throttle.
>> The depth in error before intervention down low for aileron is a wider
>> range than it is for either rudder or throttle.
>> Take your time and get used to flying from the right seat.
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> Good advice!
>
> The Vernier throttle on the A36 takes some practice -- it's a long
> reach.
>
> My primary CFI drilled the throttle thing into me by pulling it back
> whenever I would drop my hand.
>
> Dan
>
I actually liked the throttle on the early Bonanza. With a little
practice you learned to palm the outer knob that released the vervier,
then brace your fingers against the panel to use for some opposing force
when advancing it or reducing it. It was that damn throw over yoke that
could give you fits as an instructor checking someone new out in the
airplane. You got used to holding on to the center post of that thing if
you needed to correct a control input rather than trying to use the yoke
itself when it was over on the left side with the student. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Mark T. Dame]

wrote:
> A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)

I don't recall when I started feeling comfortable in the right seat, but
I felt capable after just a couple of hours. Others have suggested 8 or
10 hours and that sounds about right. My biggest problems were
(initially) trying to remember how to work the throttle and crosswind
landings. Part of that may have been because I've got almost 10 time
more time in Pipers than Cessnas and my CFI training started in a 172
(but I ended up doing most if it in an Arrow, which made things easier
for me).

Oddly enough, now I have more trouble flying the Cessnas from the left
seat than the right...


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL-IA, CFI-A, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"Be suspicious of anything that works perfectly -- it's probably
because two errors are canceling each other out."
-- Dave Bartley

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 2:34 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> wrote:

> I actually liked the throttle on the early Bonanza. With a little
> practice you learned to palm the outer knob that released the vervier,
> then brace your fingers against the panel to use for some opposing force
> when advancing it or reducing it. It was that damn throw over yoke that
> could give you fits as an instructor checking someone new out in the
> airplane. You got used to holding on to the center post of that thing if
> you needed to correct a control input rather than trying to use the yoke
> itself when it was over on the left side with the student. :-))
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

I'll have to try that technique. Lew Gage describes a similar
technique in his "E Series bonanzas"

I wasn't a fan of the throwover, but it's grown on me.

The design requirement apparently was to keep the right seat passenger
from being banged in the lap. And the interior head space was set so
that a man could sit inside and not have to remove his hat.

The A36 has dual controls, but that big honking yoke bar does making
reaching for things on the left a bit of a challenge!

Dan

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:34 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> wrote:
>
>> I actually liked the throttle on the early Bonanza. With a little
>> practice you learned to palm the outer knob that released the vervier,
>> then brace your fingers against the panel to use for some opposing force
>> when advancing it or reducing it. It was that damn throw over yoke that
>> could give you fits as an instructor checking someone new out in the
>> airplane. You got used to holding on to the center post of that thing if
>> you needed to correct a control input rather than trying to use the yoke
>> itself when it was over on the left side with the student. :-))
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> I'll have to try that technique. Lew Gage describes a similar
> technique in his "E Series bonanzas"
>
> I wasn't a fan of the throwover, but it's grown on me.
>
> The design requirement apparently was to keep the right seat passenger
> from being banged in the lap. And the interior head space was set so
> that a man could sit inside and not have to remove his hat.
>
> The A36 has dual controls, but that big honking yoke bar does making
> reaching for things on the left a bit of a challenge!
>
> Dan
>
I remember the first time I flew an early Bo. What a change from the
Tri-Pacer we were using at the time to give ADVANCED DUAL :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 4:04 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:

>
> I remember the first time I flew an early Bo. What a change from the
> Tri-Pacer we were using at the time to give ADVANCED DUAL :-)))
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Yesterday a guy was flying his Piper Colt around the pattern. I'm
sorry but that GEAR...ugh...kinda looks like it was made by Fisher-
Price.

One of the biggest shocks for most pilots (including Bonanza drivers)
is what a great Short Field airplane the 35 series is -- I can get
that thing in and out of anything a 152 can squeeze into -- and get
there a whole lot quicker and whole lot less cramped!!

Dan

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 25, 4:04 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>> I remember the first time I flew an early Bo. What a change from the
>> Tri-Pacer we were using at the time to give ADVANCED DUAL :-)))
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> Yesterday a guy was flying his Piper Colt around the pattern. I'm
> sorry but that GEAR...ugh...kinda looks like it was made by Fisher-
> Price.
>
> One of the biggest shocks for most pilots (including Bonanza drivers)
> is what a great Short Field airplane the 35 series is -- I can get
> that thing in and out of anything a 152 can squeeze into -- and get
> there a whole lot quicker and whole lot less cramped!!
>
> Dan
>

Haven't flown a Bo in years but I don't doubt this for a second. The
airplane was WAY ahead of it's time and capable of astounding
performance; max performance near the left side of the envelope being no
exception.
Even during the structural failure years, I've always simply told
prospective Bo pilots to fly the airplane within it's limits, watch out
for the clean wing when on instruments, and correct for roll before
pitch if nose down.....all basic stuff of course, but especially
important in an airplane this slippery and the exact source of almost
all of the Bo's "problems".


--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 4:29 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 4:04 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
> >> I remember the first time I flew an early Bo. What a change from the
> >> Tri-Pacer we were using at the time to give ADVANCED DUAL :-)))
>
> >> --
> >> Dudley Henriques
>
> > Yesterday a guy was flying his Piper Colt around the pattern. I'm
> > sorry but that GEAR...ugh...kinda looks like it was made by Fisher-
> > Price.
>
> > One of the biggest shocks for most pilots (including Bonanza drivers)
> > is what a great Short Field airplane the 35 series is -- I can get
> > that thing in and out of anything a 152 can squeeze into -- and get
> > there a whole lot quicker and whole lot less cramped!!
>
> > Dan
>
> Haven't flown a Bo in years but I don't doubt this for a second. The
> airplane was WAY ahead of it's time and capable of astounding
> performance; max performance near the left side of the envelope being no
> exception.
> Even during the structural failure years, I've always simply told
> prospective Bo pilots to fly the airplane within it's limits, watch out
> for the clean wing when on instruments, and correct for roll before
> pitch if nose down.....all basic stuff of course, but especially
> important in an airplane this slippery and the exact source of almost
> all of the Bo's "problems".
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Very true...

The '47 V takes some careful planning to arrive at the destination on
airspeed. Vle is 100 MPH, so you'd better prepare the descent. No
dropping the gear to help you down (unless you want to replace some
expensive parts).

The panel is such that I won't fly it IMC, though it is "legal."

The stall in the staright 35 is also a bit more exciting -- a very
clean break with a 30 degree nose down -- very unlike the mild-
mannered A36 with VGs - that thing is more docile than a 172.


Dan

[buttman]

On Feb 25, 10:07*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> " > wrote in news:4501fd99-b835-4e7a-
> :
>
> > A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>
> > How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in the
> > right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>
> Took me about an hour, I think.
>
> > I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I felt
> > as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>
> > The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and exceeded
> > PTS Comm standards.
>
> > After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>
> Yeah, doesn't take long for rust to set in! If I haven't flown for a couple
> of weeks I find myself loking at stuff in the cockpit and trying to
> remember what it does.
>
> Bertie

how is that any different than normal?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

buttman > wrote in
:

> On Feb 25, 10:07*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> " > wrote in
>> news:4501fd99-b835-4e7a-
>> :
>>
>> > A question to all the CFIs on the board who actually remember ---
>>
>> > How many hours in the right seat before you felt as competent in
>> > the right as in the left? (In a side by side, not a tandem, Bertie)
>>
>> Took me about an hour, I think.
>>
>> > I flew right seat for the first time in a couple of weeks and I
>> > felt as co-ordinated on landings as a drunken penguin.
>>
>> > The rest (Steep turns, ground reference, etc) was smooth and
>> > exceeded PTS Comm standards.
>>
>> > After about 8 stop and goes things smoothed out....
>>
>> Yeah, doesn't take long for rust to set in! If I haven't flown for a
>> coupl
> e
>> of weeks I find myself loking at stuff in the cockpit and trying to
>> remember what it does.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> how is that any different than normal?


I remember eventually, you don't.

Feel like taking another trip, spankard?



Bertie