Engrish Proficiency ;)

[Robert M. Gary]

Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
on it? I asked for a verification of priv as well as a temporary
certificate and selected my reason as the "English Proficiency". I
quickly got both in email but the official temporary that came from
the FAA doesn't say anything about English Proficiency. I've since
requested a new card be mailed to me, hopefully that will work better
than the email version. I called AOPA and the info they have is very
limited.

So, could it be that the emailed version doesn't contain the required
wording but the snail-mail version will? Will I get into an argument
with a Mexican official that I don't have English Proficiency?
It's irritating that this is happening so fast. We just found out
about it, it goes into affect in a week and it takes 2 weeks to get a
new certificate (at best). The FAA at its finest?

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:19:27 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
>certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
>on it? I asked for a verification of priv as well as a temporary
>certificate and selected my reason as the "English Proficiency". I
>quickly got both in email but the official temporary that came from
>the FAA doesn't say anything about English Proficiency. I've since
>requested a new card be mailed to me, hopefully that will work better
>than the email version. I called AOPA and the info they have is very
>limited.
>
>So, could it be that the emailed version doesn't contain the required
>wording but the snail-mail version will? Will I get into an argument
>with a Mexican official that I don't have English Proficiency?
>It's irritating that this is happening so fast. We just found out
>about it, it goes into affect in a week and it takes 2 weeks to get a
>new certificate (at best). The FAA at its finest?
>
>-Robert


I can't answer your question about the FAA, but from the information
below, it seems that English proficiency may be a non-issue.
Apparently the FAA is recommending a check with the destination
country to see if the new certificate will be required:


http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/ICAO_Rule_Requiring_English_Proficiency_Not_Likely _Enforced_197195-1.html
February 20, 2008

ICAO Rule Requiring Proof Of English Proficiency Not Likely To Be
Enforced

By Meredith Saini, Managing Editor

U.S. pilots who fly internationally are being asked to hurry up
and apply for replacement airman certificates that state they are
“English proficient,” according to an International Civil Aviation
Organization (ICAO) rule that takes effect on March 5. But a
source at the FAA’s General Aviation and Commercial Division
(AFS-800) told AVweb yesterday that the requirement is not likely
to be widely enforced, as most countries are not prepared to
comply.

A Feb. 13 letter posted on the FAA’s Information for Operators
(InFO) Web site reminds operators of the new ICAO licensing
standards, which are part of a broader ICAO effort to ensure that
all pilots and air traffic controllers are English proficient.

The FAA is not requiring pilots who fly domestically to update
their certificates, since 14 CFR Part 61 already requires pilots
to “be able to read, speak, write and understand the English
language.” Lance Nuckolls, who has been handling the ICAO issue
within AFS-800, said that pilots who are taking trips
internationally should check with the destination country to see
if the new certificate will be required. While the FAA has done
its part to comply with the ICAO standard by the March 5 deadline,
other countries can apply for an extension that would effectively
waive the requirement until 2011. But for pilots who are worried
about the possibility of a foreign ramp check in the next few
weeks, Nuckolls said that the FAA Airman Certification Branch is
processing the new certificate requests in as little as five days.


You might be able to contact Lance Nuckolls here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/customer_feedback/afs/afs800/

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 25, 11:29*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> I can't answer your question about the FAA, but from the information
> below, it seems that English proficiency may be a non-issue.
> Apparently the FAA is recommending a check with the destination
> country to see if the new certificate will be required:

I'm thinking it will be like the silly radio station/operator
licenses. The officials in Mexico have never heard of such a think and
therefore I've never bothered to get either. The officials in Canada
know what it is but they also know that American pilots don't have
them so they've never given me any problems about it.

-Robert

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:19:27 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
>>certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
>>on it? I asked for a verification of priv as well as a temporary
>>certificate and selected my reason as the "English Proficiency". I
>>quickly got both in email but the official temporary that came from
>>the FAA doesn't say anything about English Proficiency. I've since
>>requested a new card be mailed to me, hopefully that will work better
>>than the email version. I called AOPA and the info they have is very
>>limited.
>>
>>So, could it be that the emailed version doesn't contain the required
>>wording but the snail-mail version will? Will I get into an argument
>>with a Mexican official that I don't have English Proficiency?
>>It's irritating that this is happening so fast. We just found out
>>about it, it goes into affect in a week and it takes 2 weeks to get a
>>new certificate (at best). The FAA at its finest?
>>
>>-Robert
>
>
> I can't answer your question about the FAA, but from the information
> below, it seems that English proficiency may be a non-issue.
> Apparently the FAA is recommending a check with the destination
> country to see if the new certificate will be required:
>

It is a big issue. I can't fly internationally without one.

Bertie

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:46:32 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 25, 11:29*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> I can't answer your question about the FAA, but from the information
>> below, it seems that English proficiency may be a non-issue.
>> Apparently the FAA is recommending a check with the destination
>> country to see if the new certificate will be required:
>
>I'm thinking it will be like the silly radio station/operator
>licenses. The officials in Mexico have never heard of such a think and
>therefore I've never bothered to get either. The officials in Canada
>know what it is but they also know that American pilots don't have
>them so they've never given me any problems about it.
>

I've had a radio operators certificate since 1970.

Have you any idea of who it would be appropriate to contact in Mexico?
Perhaps AOPA could provide some contact information for you.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 25, 10:19*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
> certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
> on it?

Ok I got it to work. You must do the following in order...
1) Request a new certificate (pay the $2) THEN
2) Ignore the error that you can only request a temporary 30 days
after requesting a new certificate
3) Request a temporary be emailed to you.

ONLY then will the temporary arrive (via quick email) with the
required Engliish wording on it. If you order the email version first
it will not.

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:03:50 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 25, 10:19*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>> Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
>> certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
>> on it?
>
>Ok I got it to work. You must do the following in order...
>1) Request a new certificate (pay the $2) THEN
>2) Ignore the error that you can only request a temporary 30 days
>after requesting a new certificate
>3) Request a temporary be emailed to you.
>
>ONLY then will the temporary arrive (via quick email) with the
>required Engliish wording on it. If you order the email version first
>it will not.
>
>-Robert

Did you do that here:
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/certificate_replacement/

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 25, 2:11*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:03:50 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Feb 25, 10:19*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> >> Has anyone been able to get the FAA web site to issue you a temporary
> >> certificate with the new required ICOA wording of "English Proficient"
> >> on it?
>
> >Ok I got it to work. You must do the following in order...
> >1) Request a new certificate (pay the $2) THEN
> >2) Ignore the error that you can only request a temporary 30 days
> >after requesting a new certificate
> >3) Request a temporary be emailed to you.
>
> >ONLY then will the temporary arrive (via quick email) with the
> >required Engliish wording on it. If you order the email version first
> >it will not.
>
> >-Robert
>
> Did you do that here:http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/certifi...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Indirectly. When you select "on line" from there it takes you to the
web site where you log in and order your certificate.

-Robert

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

>>It's irritating that this is happening so fast. We just found out
>>about it, it goes into affect in a week and it takes 2 weeks to get a
>>new certificate (at best). The FAA at its finest?

All you have to do is listen to this exchange with JFK ground to understand
why the FAA is "moving fast" on English proficiency:

http://tinyurl.com/3dprjg
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 26, 5:19*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> All you have to do is listen to this exchange with JFK ground to understand
> why the FAA is "moving fast" on English proficiency:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3dprjg

I may not be seeing the big picture but my understanding is that the
FAA is only requiring the English Proficiency to be on U.S. pilots. I
didn't see anything about a chance to foreign licenses (and certainly
not to foreign flag common carriers).

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:22:02 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 26, 5:19*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> All you have to do is listen to this exchange with JFK ground to understand
>> why the FAA is "moving fast" on English proficiency:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/3dprjg
>
>I may not be seeing the big picture but my understanding is that the
>FAA is only requiring the English Proficiency to be on U.S. pilots. I
>didn't see anything about a chance to foreign licenses (and certainly
>not to foreign flag common carriers).
>
>-Robert

Right. It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. FAA is
moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. Or
maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
. *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. *Or
> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.

And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
that requirement.

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>. *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
>> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. *Or
>> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.
>
>And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
>China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
>that requirement.
>
>-Robert

Check the ICAO web site, but I believe the required proficiency level
has been redefined. There are several levels, IIRC.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:FlUwj.50499$9j6.29639@attbi_s22:

>>>It's irritating that this is happening so fast. We just found out
>>>about it, it goes into affect in a week and it takes 2 weeks to get a
>>>new certificate (at best). The FAA at its finest?
>
> All you have to do is listen to this exchange with JFK ground to
> understand why the FAA is "moving fast" on English proficiency:

It's because it's been nmadated by ICAO you xenophobic fjukktard.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
:

> On Feb 26, 5:19*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> All you have to do is listen to this exchange with JFK ground to
>> understan
> d
>> why the FAA is "moving fast" on English proficiency:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/3dprjg
>
> I may not be seeing the big picture but my understanding is that the
> FAA is only requiring the English Proficiency to be on U.S. pilots. I
> didn't see anything about a chance to foreign licenses (and certainly
> not to foreign flag common carriers).
>

That;'s because it has **** all to do with the FAA. The FAA has been tasked
with impimentation, but this is a worldwide effort.


bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:6307c716-4cc2-423c-ac9f-
:

> On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> . *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
>> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. *Or
>> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.
>
> And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
> China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
> that requirement.
>


They aren;t. They will be. English is not the only aviation language!




bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>. *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
>>> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. *Or
>>> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.
>>
>>And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
>>China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
>>that requirement.
>>
>>-Robert
>
> Check the ICAO web site, but I believe the required proficiency level
> has been redefined. There are several levels, IIRC.

Hey Larry. go **** up a rope ( didn't want you to think I was ignoring you)


Bertie

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 26, 12:41*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:6307c716-4cc2-423c-ac9f-
> :
>
> > On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> > . *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
> >> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates. *Or
> >> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.
>
> > And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
> > China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
> > that requirement.
>
> They aren;t. They will be. English is not the only aviation language!

In the US it is and the Dateline news story is about the China Air
pilot who got confused at JFK (hense my reference to China Air).

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
:

> On Feb 26, 12:41*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
>> news:6307c716-4cc2-423c-ac9f-
>
>> :
>>
>> > On Feb 26, 10:03*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> > . *It's ICAO that is making the requirement, not FAA. *FAA is
>> >> moving fast to provide US airmen with ICAO compliant certificates.
>> >> *O
> r
>> >> maybe I'm seeing the big picture either.
>>
>> > And how does putting "English Proficient" on the certificate of Air
>> > China pilots change anything when they are already required to meet
>> > that requirement.
>>
>> They aren;t. They will be. English is not the only aviation language!
>
> In the US it is and the Dateline news story is about the China Air
> pilot who got confused at JFK (hense my reference to China Air).
>

I know that, but the point is they didn;t have to learn English to fly.
Its a sort of add -on. Added o whih, the US is the odd one out with ATC
as far as systems, procedures and ATC chatter is concerned, so it's a
little difficult for even a native english speaker from abroad, never
mind one can barely speak it. I'm not saying that things don't need to
be tidied up. They do. I'm just saying.

You should hear some US pilots abroad!

THere's a story about a crew going into LHR, probably tired, and they
were cleared to 4,000', QNH 1027. One of the crew came back to the
controller with the request "can we have that in inches please?" to
which came the reply "roger, cleared to 48,000 inches, QNH 1027"

Listening to a US crew coming into somewhere like Rome, when the crew
doesn't come in there often is only hilarious.



Bertie