What sort of UL/LSA do I want?

[Michael[_1_]]

I have finally reached the point where I can reasonably acquire a
purely-for-fun, low-and-slow kind of flying machine. It's not going
to be my only one - I own a Twin Comanche that I use for travel. Thus
I don't care how slow it is - I'm never going very far in it. I would
like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,
and the doors are not wide enough to accomodate anything more than
about 18 ft. Also I have no intention of buying new or building -
this must be something that I can acquire for under $20K in good
flying condition and with plenty of life left in it (not a project).
Also no certified aircraft of any sort need apply - homebuilt or e-LSA
only. It also can't be something that requires a crew of any sort -
it needs to be something I can easily pull out and launch myself. No
balloons, no gliders. Also nothing foot launched - it's not so much
the foot launching but the foot landing I can't take.

Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Michael

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:34:14 -0800 (PST), Michael
> wrote in
>:

>Anyone have any suggestions?

I'd be looking in Trade A Plane
<http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classified?searchtype=atcode&code=E> for
a Kolb Firestar II or Mark III Extra:
http://tnkolbaircraft.com/m3x.html

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:34:14 -0800 (PST), Michael
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> I'd be looking in Trade A Plane
> <http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classified?searchtype=atcode&code=E> for
> a Kolb Firestar II or Mark III Extra:
> http://tnkolbaircraft.com/m3x.html
>

Wouldn't you want to check the regs first? Or do you do that afterwards?

Perhaps both? ou can't be too careful.

Be sure and read the fine print on the TAP site as well!


Bertie

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Michael wrote:

>
> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
> Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Michael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_City_Challenger

[Jim Logajan]

Michael > wrote:
> I would like it to be two seats,

It'd need to be registered then - i.e. can't be flown under Part 103.
(You'd need to be certificated too, but looks like that's covered.)

Otherwise there are probably a fair number of choices.

[Michael[_1_]]

On Feb 25, 3:56*pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> > Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. *Powered parachute?
> > Trike? *Three axis? *Gyroplane? *Any of the above would work for me.
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> > Michael
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_City_Challenger

And how would I get it into my pole barn through the 18 ft doors with
the 31.5 ft wingspan? Am I missing something? Do the wings fold?

Michael

[Michael[_1_]]

On Feb 25, 4:15*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Michael > wrote:
> > I would like it to be two seats,
>
> It'd need to be registered then - i.e. can't be flown under Part 103.
> (You'd need to be certificated too, but looks like that's covered.)
>
> Otherwise there are probably a fair number of choices.

Yeah, I am fully aware that 2 seaters can't fly under 103, and the
exemption is gone too, what with Sport Pilot. However, since I've
managed to pick up ratings for singles, twins, and gliders in my 2500
or so hours, and since I've also flown hang gliders a bit and
parachute jumped a lot, I think that whatever rating I might be
missing to fly what I pick out, I'll be able to get without too much
trouble. Anyway, something new would be a challenge and that's always
good.

What I see limiting my options is the short strip and the small
doors. Something with a 30 foot wing span won't work unless the wings
fold or something, and even then if it takes more than about 10
minutes to unfold the wings and get ready for flight, I'm probably not
interested.

Now I'm curious - are you the same Jim Logajan who flies an RAF2000
with the big Subaru engine and does demo flights in it sometimes?

Michael

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Michael wrote:
> On Feb 25, 3:56 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
> wrote:
>> Michael wrote:
>>
>>> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
>>> Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
>>> Anyone have any suggestions?
>>> Michael
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_City_Challenger
>
> And how would I get it into my pole barn through the 18 ft doors with
> the 31.5 ft wingspan? Am I missing something? Do the wings fold?
>
> Michael

Missed that spec in you original message though the Challenger might
well have foldable/removable wings.

[Jim Logajan]

Michael > wrote:
> On Feb 25, 4:15*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> Michael > wrote:
>> > I would like it to be two seats,
>>
>> It'd need to be registered then - i.e. can't be flown under Part 103.
>> (You'd need to be certificated too, but looks like that's covered.)
>>
>> Otherwise there are probably a fair number of choices.
>
> Yeah, I am fully aware that 2 seaters can't fly under 103, and the
> exemption is gone too, what with Sport Pilot.

Okay. I'll be curious to see what people suggest to you - I have no
experience to relate on the class of plane you are interested in,
unfortunately.

Though I must ask if you have a preference for tandem or side-by-side
seating?

> What I see limiting my options is the short strip and the small
> doors. Something with a 30 foot wing span won't work unless the wings
> fold or something, and even then if it takes more than about 10
> minutes to unfold the wings and get ready for flight, I'm probably not
> interested.

I presume you've glanced through the December 2007 issue of Kitplanes
magazine? They list as many of the currently sold homebuilts as they know
about in their annual kit aircraft directory. Even if not buying a kit,
you'd get some idea what models to include/exclude.

> Now I'm curious - are you the same Jim Logajan who flies an RAF2000
> with the big Subaru engine and does demo flights in it sometimes?

Uh - no. I suspect you are confusing my unusual last name with a Jim Logan
(note difference in spelling of the last name).

[yogi22]

On Feb 25, 4:26 pm, Michael > wrote:
> On Feb 25, 3:56 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
> wrote:
>
> > Michael wrote:
>
> > > Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
> > > Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
> > > Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> > > Michael
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_City_Challenger
>
> And how would I get it into my pole barn through the 18 ft doors with
> the 31.5 ft wingspan? Am I missing something? Do the wings fold?
>
> Michael

If your "pole barn" is more than 31.5 ft long, I was thinking that you
could use a special dolly (I saw the plans somewhere) and push her in
sideways.

Alas! according to one site I found, the Challenger's length is "20
FT. 0 IN." Oh Well, at least I tried.

It just struck me that if the barn's width beyond the doors, is
significantly greater than 20 feet, it WOULD be possible to maneuver
her through the doors by going through on an angle.
kk

[Maxwell]

"yogi22" > wrote in message
...
> On Feb 25, 4:26 pm, Michael > wrote:
>> On Feb 25, 3:56 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Michael wrote:
>>
>> > > Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
>> > > Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
>> > > Anyone have any suggestions?
>>
>> > > Michael
>>
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_City_Challenger
>>
>> And how would I get it into my pole barn through the 18 ft doors with
>> the 31.5 ft wingspan? Am I missing something? Do the wings fold?
>>
>> Michael
>
> If your "pole barn" is more than 31.5 ft long, I was thinking that you
> could use a special dolly (I saw the plans somewhere) and push her in
> sideways.
>
> Alas! according to one site I found, the Challenger's length is "20
> FT. 0 IN." Oh Well, at least I tried.
>
> It just struck me that if the barn's width beyond the doors, is
> significantly greater than 20 feet, it WOULD be possible to maneuver
> her through the doors by going through on an angle.
> kk

With a limitations of 1000 ft runway, a two place aircraft, and an 18.5 ft
door - the dolly may still be a good idea. Light gauge tracks can made from
steel angle the will track a deck of some sort as well. You see this done
occasionally for helos. Just try not to let these limitations pull you away
from a three axis fixed wing design. I would certainly spend some time on a
trike, gyro or powered parachute before I invested in one.

[xxx]

On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Michael >
wrote:
>
> this must be something that I can acquire for under $20K in good
> flying condition and with plenty of life left in it (not a project).
> Also no certified aircraft of any sort need apply - homebuilt or e-LSA

>
> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
> Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Michael

$20k? That ain't much these days.

My guess is that you'll have to compromise on some of those goals. A
powered parachute would keep you in budget and meet your hangaring
requirements but you'd be flying solo.

My first flight instructor, the one I got private with, made me
promise never to fly a gyrocopter. So far I've kept that promise, but
some of them are intriguing and may meet your criteria.

[Peter Dohm]

"Michael" > wrote in message
...
>I have finally reached the point where I can reasonably acquire a
> purely-for-fun, low-and-slow kind of flying machine. It's not going
> to be my only one - I own a Twin Comanche that I use for travel. Thus
> I don't care how slow it is - I'm never going very far in it. I would
> like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
> from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
> wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,
> and the doors are not wide enough to accomodate anything more than
> about 18 ft. Also I have no intention of buying new or building -
> this must be something that I can acquire for under $20K in good
> flying condition and with plenty of life left in it (not a project).
> Also no certified aircraft of any sort need apply - homebuilt or e-LSA
> only. It also can't be something that requires a crew of any sort -
> it needs to be something I can easily pull out and launch myself. No
> balloons, no gliders. Also nothing foot launched - it's not so much
> the foot launching but the foot landing I can't take.
>
> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
> Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Michael

IIRC, The earliest Tailwinds had folding wings, and the Nesmith Cougar
(which was essentially a rip-off of the Tailwind) may have retained the
feature. There are a few other folding wing designs around, but I know even
less about most of them; and the folding wing versions of the Glastar are
*way* out of your stated price range.

Peter

[Kyle Boatright]

"Michael" > wrote in message
...
>I have finally reached the point where I can reasonably acquire a
> purely-for-fun, low-and-slow kind of flying machine. It's not going
> to be my only one - I own a Twin Comanche that I use for travel. Thus
> I don't care how slow it is - I'm never going very far in it. I would
> like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
> from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
> wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,
> and the doors are not wide enough to accomodate anything more than
> about 18 ft.

<<snip>>>

>
> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
> Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Michael

I see the pole barn as your problem. You can find plenty of aircraft that
fit your requirements if you eliminate the 18' span issue. Folding wings
are no panacea. I know more than a few folks who own "folding wing
aircraft" and most of 'em only use that feature a couple of times before
finding a way to store their aircraft assembled.

My guess is that you should take $1k of your budget and modify the pole
barn, then spend the rest of it on a decent Chief, Taylorcraft, Kitfox, or
reputable ultralight.

KB

[James Sleeman]

On Feb 26, 8:34*am, Michael > wrote:

> I don't care how slow it is - I'm never going very far in it. *I would
> like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
> from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
> wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,

Kitfox. Folding wings (don't know how easy they fold, but I think all
Kitfoxes do have folding). Tail dragger.

You should be able to get a real nice example for around your price -
http://www.barnstormers.com/

[Michael[_1_]]

On Feb 25, 7:00*pm, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
> I see the pole barn as your problem. *You can find plenty of aircraft that
> fit your requirements if you eliminate the 18' span issue. *Folding wings
> are no panacea. *I know more than a few folks who own "folding wing
> aircraft" and most of 'em only use that feature a couple of times before
> finding a way to store their aircraft assembled.
>
> My guess is that you should take $1k of your budget and modify the pole
> barn, then spend the rest of it on a decent Chief, Taylorcraft, Kitfox, or
> reputable ultralight.

Well, first off I would not consider a Chief or Taylorcraft in any
case. I will never even consider another certified airplane. If I
could find something that would come close to matching the speed,
range, cabin room, and overall performance of the Twinkie while
retaining twin engine redundancy, the Twinkie would be gone in a
minute. But that's another issue.

If you believe a pole barn can be modified for $1K, I have one hell of
a proposition for you. I'll pay you $5K to modify it to open 35 ft on
the long side. My only requirements are that it be structurally sound
(still insurable), still enclosed, and that one person can get it
open and closed in under 5 minutes (each operation). Think it can be
done?

Michael

[GyroMike]

On Feb 25, 4:55*pm, xxx > wrote:

> My first flight instructor, the one I got private with, made me
> promise never to fly a gyrocopter. So far I've kept that promise, but
> some of them are intriguing and may meet your criteria.

Your instructor doesn't know what he's missing :)

Mike
http://www.rotaryforum.com

[Drew Dalgleish]

I think a trike would suit your mission statement nicely. If you built
a trolley system as others suggested it would easily go through your
door sideways with the wing open.

[[email protected]]

You're the Michael from the Houston TX area with the white and blue
TwinCo, right?

If so, then if you'd change your mind about a project you might be
interested in this Zenith CH-701 partially complete kit that's located
in SugarLand, TX and advertised on Barnstormers right now

http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_manager/ad_detail.php?ID=223635

It's claimed to be 90% done, which means it still has 90% left to
go ;-) You could finish it the way you wish, and get your repairman's
certificate for it in the process.

Looks like it could easily be fitted with the folding wing option too
since it's not yet fully assembled.

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/fwo.html

Of course, you'll end up with much more than $20K in it by the time
you're done, more like around $30-35K but it would be a neat plane to
own, very good STOL specs, plus be able to haul a good sized useful
load around and be very cheap on fuel burn, plus it would be a newly
constructed plane too.

Asking for 2 seats plus all the rest of your requirements is probably
not going to happen in a small experimental with that price
constraint, especially if you and your pax weigh more than 170 lbs
each.

[Dana M. Hague]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:34:14 -0800 (PST), Michael
> wrote:

>...I would
>like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
>from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
>wingspan or folding wings or some such...
>...It also can't be something that requires a crew of any sort -
>it needs to be something I can easily pull out and launch myself. No
>balloons, no gliders. Also nothing foot launched - it's not so much
>the foot launching but the foot landing I can't take.
>
>Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. Powered parachute?
>Trike? Three axis? Gyroplane? Any of the above would work for me.

For 3 axis airplanes, the Kolbs are hard to beat if you want easy
folding... mine takes about 20 minutes trailer to air, though I
believe the new ones are even quicker.

Powered parachutes (PPC) are OK of you just want to fly around
straight and level, slowly... personally I find them kinda boring.
Powered paragliders, OTOH... are close to the most fun I've ever had
in the air... slower even than a PPC, but the handling is like a tiny
sports car compared to the Mack truck of a PPC. Most PPG's are foot
launched and single place, but there are PPG trikes too, and 2-place
as well... the FAA considers a PPG trike to be a PPC.

BTW, foot landing a PPG is pretty mellow, too.

-Dana
--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If cars had followed the same developmental path as computers, a Rolls Royce would cost $100, get a million miles per gallon and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.

[Dave[_5_]]

There was an auction on eBay for an Avid Flyer that ended a couple of
days ago, That plane is the predecessor to the
Kitfox, and would, I believe, meet your requirements. The seller
claimed he couldn't fit in it as a reason for selling. He was only
asking $12K or so, and the high bid was a little more than half, IIRC.
The reserve was not met. Look it up if it interests you.

David Johnson

[Michael[_1_]]

On Feb 26, 12:22*pm, wrote:
> You're the Michael from the Houston TX area with the white and blue
> TwinCo, right?

I am that Michael, but I live in Michigan now.

> If so, then if you'd change your mind about a project you might be
> interested in this Zenith CH-701 partially complete kit that's located
> in SugarLand, TX and advertised on Barnstormers right now

I have done my one project. Never again.

> It's claimed to be 90% done, which means it still has 90% left to
> go ;-)

Exactly!

>*You could finish it the way you wish, and get your repairman's
> certificate for it in the process.

That's useless to me - I have my A&P.

> Of course, you'll end up with much more than $20K in it by the time
> you're done, more like around $30-35K

Exactly. And for that money, I can just have the barn modified and
buy whatever, without doing a lick of work.

> Asking for 2 seats plus all the rest of your requirements is probably
> not going to happen in a small experimental with that price
> constraint, especially if you and your pax weigh more than 170 lbs
> each.

Oh, I'm sure it will - worst case, I'll get a 2 seat powered
parachute.

Michael

[Dylan Smith]

On 2008-02-25, Michael > wrote:
> like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
> from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
> wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,

I wonder if there's a two seat version of this, which I saw at
Pinckneyville back in 2000:

http://www.alioth.net/flying/flying/gallery/pville2k/swingwing.jpg

I don't remember it taking him more than a few minutes to pull the wings
straight and rig it. Perhaps someone recognises what kind of plane it
is, I've long forgotten!

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

[[email protected]]

I would talk to the people on the Light-Sport Aircraft yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/

I doubt you will find very much with less than an 18ft span.
Cut the poles and put them on hinges so they can swing away to let the
aircraft in and out.
We have used this method on our pole barn hangars for over 20 years.


Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/




On Feb 25, 12:34*pm, Michael >
wrote:
> I have finally reached the point where I can reasonably acquire a
> purely-for-fun, low-and-slow kind of flying machine. *It's not going
> to be my only one - I own a Twin Comanche that I use for travel. *Thus
> I don't care how slow it is - I'm never going very far in it. *I would
> like it to be two seats, to be something that can comfortably operate
> from a 1000 ft grass strip, and something with a relatively narrow
> wingspan or folding wings or some such - it will live in a pole barn,
> and the doors are not wide enough to accomodate anything more than
> about 18 ft. *Also I have no intention of buying new or building -
> this must be something that I can acquire for under $20K in good
> flying condition *and with plenty of life left in it (not a project).
> Also no certified aircraft of any sort need apply - homebuilt or e-LSA
> only. *It also can't be something that requires a crew of any sort -
> it needs to be something I can easily pull out and launch myself. *No
> balloons, no gliders. *Also nothing foot launched - it's not so much
> the foot launching but the foot landing I can't take.
>
> Now, having said that - I'm otherwise flexible. *Powered parachute?
> Trike? *Three axis? *Gyroplane? *Any of the above would work for me.
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Michael

[Michael[_1_]]

On Feb 28, 7:52*pm, wrote:
> I doubt you will find very much with less than an 18ft span.
> Cut the poles and put them on hinges so they can swing away to let the
> aircraft in and out.
> We have used this method on our pole barn hangars for over 20 years.

Any chance you could elaborate on that some? I'm not trying to be
snide - I'm absolutely dead serious. I could knock out that sort of
project in a weekend if I knew how it was supposed to be done. If you
have instructions, pictures, a willingness to discuss it - anything -
I would much appreciate it.

I thought that I would need to put corner posts and a steel beam to
reinforce the cross member that would lose the poles. That's a big
and complicated project. Cutting two poles and putting in hinges so
they swing up and down is easy - if that's all there is to it. And I
guess most of the reason for those poles is because in high winds the
barn would come down without them - but you're not going to get that
sort of plane out on a day like that anyway.

Am I on the right track? What happens if there is snow on top of the
roof?

Michael

[Rich Ahrens[_2_]]

Robert Moore wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote
>> http://www.alioth.net/flying/flying/gallery/pville2k/swingwing.jpg
>>
>> I don't remember it taking him more than a few minutes to pull the wings
>> straight and rig it. Perhaps someone recognises what kind of plane it
>> is, I've long forgotten!
>
> One of the various versions of the "Kitfox".

That would be Scrappman's Sky Raider:

http://www.ultralightflyer.com/skyraider/

There's one for sale on craigslist:

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/rvs/601921667.html