Lawsuits gone wild!

[AJ]

(From Aero-News.net:)

Washington Guv Raises Possibility Of Legal Action If KC-X Doesn't Go
To Boeing
Gregoire Believes Hometown Team Will Win Contract

At this writing, Boeing hasn't lost the US Air Force's KC-X contract
to provide the service with new tankers just yet -- and many analysts
feel a Boeing win over a team comprised of EADS and Northrop Grumman
is all-but assured. But that didn't stop the governor of Washington
from threatening a possible legal protest if Boeing is denied the
contract.

Speaking to reporters Tuesday after a meeting with the state's
congressional delegation, Gov. Chris Gregoire said the state could
file a congressional inquiry or take another course of action if
Boeing isn't awarded the KC-X deal.

A decision from the Air Force was originally said to be coming as soon
as Wednesday evening... though officials said Wednesday afternoon not
to expect an announcement until Friday, at the earliest.

Gregoire then stressed she still believes Boeing will come out on top,
reports The Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "I'm banking on us getting
it," she said. "I just think we win if it's done absolutely without
politics, based on experience, work force, all of that. So I'm feeling
good about this.

"If we don't win, then I think there'll be a lot of questions asked
about why in the world would Boeing, with that work force, that
expertise, that experience, that history -- how could they not have
gotten this?" Gregoire then added, muddying the waters somewhat. "My
sense is there'll be a lot of questions raised and then we'll get into
the protest."

Of course, Gregoire isn't the first person to raise the ominous
specter of legal action, from either side of the hotly-contested KC-X
battle. As ANN has reported extensively, Boeing is offering its KC-767
aerial refueling platform to replace 179 aging KC-135 tankers in the
Air Force fleet; Northrop/EADS has countered with a variant of its
KC-330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport.

Boeing recently delivered the first KC-767 to Japan, albeit one year
behind schedule; the KC-330 is still undergoing development.

The contract to be awarded shortly is the first of three phases of the
KC-X program, which aims to ultimately replace 502 aging tankers. Both
sides have appealed to lawmakers in Washington and Kansas (Boeing) and
Alabama (EADS/Northrop) to support their respective bids, touting new
jobs and economic growth.

Federal law allows losing bidders on federal contracts to appeal to
the Government Accountability Office, if they allege the agency
involved violated terms of the procurement agreement when selecting
the winning contract.

Such a battle is now underway with another Air Force program -- the
CSAR-X search-and-rescue helicopter bid, which was originally awarded
to Boeing's HH-47 in November 2006. Losing bidders Sikorsky and
Lockheed promptly lodged protests... and the Air Force, after some
stalling, agreed to reopen the bidding process last year.

There's also a fair amount of political irony here... as in 2005,
Gregoire was among the most vocal supporters of efforts by three
Washington counties to bring the KC-30 assembly plant to the state.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:49:45 -0800 (PST), AJ >
wrote in
>:

>Gregoire then stressed she still believes Boeing will come out on top,
>reports The Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "I'm banking on us getting
>it," she said.

Based upon here feminine intuition no doubt.

>"I just think we win if it's done absolutely without
>politics, based on experience, work force, all of that. So I'm feeling
>good about this.

I would expect, that the contract would be awarded based on price, not
on "experience, work force, all of that."

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:49:45 -0800 (PST), AJ >
> wrote in
> >:
>
>>Gregoire then stressed she still believes Boeing will come out on top,
>>reports The Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "I'm banking on us getting
>>it," she said.
>
> Based upon here feminine intuition no doubt.

You get to be a juicier target every day , Lar.


Bertie

[Scott Skylane]

Larry Dighera wrote:
/snip/
>
> I would expect, that the contract would be awarded based on price, not
> on "experience, work force, all of that."
>

Good grief, Dighera, are you really *that* naive???

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:08:07 -0900, Scott Skylane
> wrote in >:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>/snip/
>>
>> I would expect, that the contract would be awarded based on price, not
>> on "experience, work force, all of that."
>>
>
>Good grief, Dighera, are you really *that* naive???
>

Yah, I know what you mean, but we can hope.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:55:59 -0500, John Smith > wrote
in >:

>I am trying to figure out why we are willing to purchase either of two
>30+ year old airframe designs to provide our air force with its needs in
>the future.
>There should be a significant discount below the price of a used
>airframe of either of these models. In Boeing's case, all the tooling
>has been paid for, the company has been in the process of shutting down
>the line for several years, the suppliers already exist.
>But because it is a government contract, the bureaucracy will spend
>excessive taxpayer dollars for an outdated product.

Originally, it was worse than that. The Pentagon wasn't even getting
competitive bids, but some people at DOD and Boeing went to jail, and
now we have at least the semblance of competition.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> I would expect, that the contract would be awarded based on price, not
> on "experience, work force, all of that."

The RFP for the program would lay out the award criteria. Generally,
those criteria would sum up to best value to the Government so that
it is not necessarily lowest price that would win.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Kyle Boatright]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
>I am trying to figure out why we are willing to purchase either of two
> 30+ year old airframe designs to provide our air force with its needs in
> the future.
> There should be a significant discount below the price of a used
> airframe of either of these models. In Boeing's case, all the tooling
> has been paid for, the company has been in the process of shutting down
> the line for several years, the suppliers already exist.
> But because it is a government contract, the bureaucracy will spend
> excessive taxpayer dollars for an outdated product.

Several thoughts:

1) If the airplane fits the spec, it doesn't really matter when it was
designed. Beyond that,other than exception of engine development, not a
whole lot has changed in the airliner/transport business since the KC-135/
B707 was launched 50 years ago, so calling a 767 derived product obsolete is
misleading.

2) Would you rather send those jobs overseas? I'd prefer to keep those jobs
here and have 10 or 20 thousand US citizens have good paying jobs than have
many of those jobs go overseas and have to pay unemployment for the Boeing
employees.

3) Government always spends too much money on a given undertaking. The
bureaucracy that is supposed to prevent it from buying a $700 hammer also
makes it impossible for anyone to profitably sell the government $5 hammers.

[Kingfish]

On Feb 28, 8:16*pm, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
>
> Several thoughts:
>
> 1) If the airplane fits the spec, it doesn't really matter when it was
> designed. *Beyond that,other than exception of engine development, not a
> whole lot has changed in the airliner/transport business since the KC-135/
> B707 was launched 50 years ago, so calling a 767 derived product obsolete is
> misleading.

You don't consider composite construction a new development? (787,
A350XWB) Granted, neither of the KC-X entrants is a composite design
but it's a stretch to say not much has changed in 50 years. A big leap
happend when turbojets were replaced by efficient turbofans, for one
example.

> 2) Would you rather send those jobs overseas? *I'd prefer to keep those jobs
> here and have 10 or 20 thousand US citizens have good paying jobs than have
> many of those jobs go overseas and have to pay unemployment for the Boeing
> employees.

If the KC-30 is picked they will be assembled in Alabama. Many other
states will share in the work from the new contract. It's all on
Northrop Grumman's KC-30 site.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/benefits/impact.html


> 3) *Government always spends too much money on a given undertaking. *The
> bureaucracy that is supposed to prevent it from buying a $700 hammer also
> makes it impossible for anyone to profitably sell the government $5 hammers.

No argument here, although the reason for $700 hammers/toilet seats/
etc (aside from non-competitive bids) is that they usually have to
meet some particular milspec, which means they aren't available
commercially and are made in low quantities. This is not conducive to
low cost.

[Blueskies]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message . ..
>
>
> Several thoughts:
>
> 1) If the airplane fits the spec, it doesn't really matter when it was
> designed. Beyond that,other than exception of engine development, not a
> whole lot has changed in the airliner/transport business since the KC-135/
> B707 was launched 50 years ago, so calling a 767 derived product obsolete is
> misleading.
>
> 2) Would you rather send those jobs overseas? I'd prefer to keep those jobs
> here and have 10 or 20 thousand US citizens have good paying jobs than have
> many of those jobs go overseas and have to pay unemployment for the Boeing
> employees.
>
> 3) Government always spends too much money on a given undertaking. The
> bureaucracy that is supposed to prevent it from buying a $700 hammer also
> makes it impossible for anyone to profitably sell the government $5 hammers.
>
>


It was announced today that the KC-30 (derived from the Airbus A-330) has won the "competition."

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:12:02 -0500, "Blueskies"
> wrote in
>:

>
>
>It was announced today that the KC-30 (derived from the Airbus A-330) has won the "competition."


Northrop Grumman and the maker of Airbus planes beat out Boeing
Co. to win a $35 billion government contract to build up to 179
military refueling planes, the Air Force said Friday.The selection
of Los Angeles-based Northrop Grumman and its European-based
partner, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., came as a
surprise to industry and government officials.It is a big blow to
Chicago-based Boeing, which has been supplying refueling tankers
to the Air Force for nearly 50 years and had been widely expected
to win the deal.The contract positions EADS to break into the U.S.
military market in a big way. And it opens up a huge new business
opportunity for Northrop Grumman. In after-hours trading, shares
of Northrop climbed $3.74 to $82.37, while Boeing's stock price
fell $2.59 to $80.10.The Northrop-EADS refueling tanker, the
KC-45A, "will revolutionize our ability to employ tankers and will
ensure the Air Force's future ability to provide our nation with
truly global vigilance, reach, and power," Air Force Gen. Duncan
J. McNab said in a statement.
(AP Online 04:37 PM ET 02/29/2008)

More:

http://cs.schwab.com/clicker/cli?requestID=sr&sid=11302669&emailMsgID=mcs022854499968bacmr4tsmyaaaaarhjaztx
----------------------------------------------------------------

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:08:07 -0900, Scott Skylane
> > wrote in >:
>
>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>/snip/
>>>
>>> I would expect, that the contract would be awarded based on price, not
>>> on "experience, work force, all of that."
>>>
>>
>>Good grief, Dighera, are you really *that* naive???
>>
>
> Yah, I know what you mean, but we can hope.



That answers that.


Bertie

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:49:45 -0800 (PST), AJ >
wrote:

>(From Aero-News.net:)
>
>Washington Guv Raises Possibility Of Legal Action If KC-X Doesn't Go
>To Boeing
>Gregoire Believes Hometown Team Will Win Contract
>
>At this writing, Boeing hasn't lost the US Air Force's KC-X contract
>to provide the service with new tankers just yet -- and many analysts
>feel a Boeing win over a team comprised of EADS and Northrop Grumman
>is all-but assured. But that didn't stop the governor of Washington
>from threatening a possible legal protest if Boeing is denied the
>contract.

So much for the analysts: As of the 29th Boeing lost Re "Aviation
Week". www.aviationweek.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Roger > wrote:

> >At this writing, Boeing hasn't lost the US Air Force's KC-X contract
> >to provide the service with new tankers just yet -- and many analysts
> >feel a Boeing win over a team comprised of EADS and Northrop Grumman
> >is all-but assured. But that didn't stop the governor of Washington
> >from threatening a possible legal protest if Boeing is denied the
> >contract.
>
> So much for the analysts: As of the 29th Boeing lost Re "Aviation

Maybe it'll be a 2 out of 3 match....

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Blueskies]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message . ..
>>
>>
>> Several thoughts:
>>
>> 1) If the airplane fits the spec, it doesn't really matter when it was
>> designed. Beyond that,other than exception of engine development, not a
>> whole lot has changed in the airliner/transport business since the KC-135/
>> B707 was launched 50 years ago, so calling a 767 derived product obsolete is
>> misleading.
>>
>> 2) Would you rather send those jobs overseas? I'd prefer to keep those jobs
>> here and have 10 or 20 thousand US citizens have good paying jobs than have
>> many of those jobs go overseas and have to pay unemployment for the Boeing
>> employees.
>>
>> 3) Government always spends too much money on a given undertaking. The
>> bureaucracy that is supposed to prevent it from buying a $700 hammer also
>> makes it impossible for anyone to profitably sell the government $5 hammers.
>>
>>
>
>
> It was announced today that the KC-30 (derived from the Airbus A-330) has won the "competition."



Heard later it is to be called the KC-45A...

bogus.......

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:55:13 +0000, Larry Dighera wrote:

> It is a big blow to
> Chicago-based Boeing

<heh> Maybe someone remembers Meigs.

- Andrew

[Mxsmanic]

John Smith writes:

> I am trying to figure out why we are willing to purchase either of two
> 30+ year old airframe designs to provide our air force with its needs in
> the future.

Airplanes are not computers. Thirty-year-old designs can still be perfectly
suited to a task. You don't have to design a brand-new aircraft for every
bid, and in fact it's not a very good idea to do so.

[Mxsmanic]

Kingfish writes:

> You don't consider composite construction a new development?

It's just an incremental weight reduction.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> John Smith writes:
>
>> I am trying to figure out why we are willing to purchase either of
>> two 30+ year old airframe designs to provide our air force with its
>> needs in the future.
>
> Airplanes are not computers.

BOGGLE!


Breakthrough, fjukkwit!


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Kingfish writes:
>
>> You don't consider composite construction a new development?
>
> It's just an incremental weight reduction.
>

Nope, wrong again, fjukkwit.


Bertie

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Feb 28, 11:49*am, AJ > wrote:
> (From Aero-News.net:)
>
> Washington Guv Raises Possibility Of Legal Action If KC-X Doesn't Go
> To Boeing
> Gregoire Believes Hometown Team Will Win Contract
>
> At this writing, Boeing hasn't lost the US Air Force's KC-X contract
> to provide the service with new tankers just yet -- and many analysts
> feel a Boeing win over a team comprised of EADS and Northrop Grumman
> is all-but assured. But that didn't stop the governor of Washington
> from threatening a possible legal protest if Boeing is denied the
> contract.
>
> Speaking to reporters Tuesday after a meeting with the state's
> congressional delegation, Gov. Chris Gregoire said the state could
> file a congressional inquiry or take another course of action if
> Boeing isn't awarded the KC-X deal.
>
> A decision from the Air Force was originally said to be coming as soon
> as Wednesday evening... though officials said Wednesday afternoon not
> to expect an announcement until Friday, at the earliest.
>
> Gregoire then stressed she still believes Boeing will come out on top,
> reports The Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "I'm banking on us getting
> it," she said. "I just think we win if it's done absolutely without
> politics, based on experience, work force, all of that. So I'm feeling
> good about this.
>
> "If we don't win, then I think there'll be a lot of questions asked
> about why in the world would Boeing, with that work force, that
> expertise, that experience, that history -- how could they not have
> gotten this?" Gregoire then added, muddying the waters somewhat. "My
> sense is there'll be a lot of questions raised and then we'll get into
> the protest."
>
> Of course, Gregoire isn't the first person to raise the ominous
> specter of legal action, from either side of the hotly-contested KC-X
> battle. As ANN has reported extensively, Boeing is offering its KC-767
> aerial refueling platform to replace 179 aging KC-135 tankers in the
> Air Force fleet; Northrop/EADS has countered with a variant of its
> KC-330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport.
>
> Boeing recently delivered the first KC-767 to Japan, albeit one year
> behind schedule; the KC-330 is still undergoing development.
>
> The contract to be awarded shortly is the first of three phases of the
> KC-X program, which aims to ultimately replace 502 aging tankers. Both
> sides have appealed to lawmakers in Washington and Kansas (Boeing) and
> Alabama (EADS/Northrop) to support their respective bids, touting new
> jobs and economic growth.
>
> Federal law allows losing bidders on federal contracts to appeal to
> the Government Accountability Office, if they allege the agency
> involved violated terms of the procurement agreement when selecting
> the winning contract.
>
> Such a battle is now underway with another Air Force program -- the
> CSAR-X search-and-rescue helicopter bid, which was originally awarded
> to Boeing's HH-47 in November 2006. Losing bidders Sikorsky and
> Lockheed promptly lodged protests... and the Air Force, after some
> stalling, agreed to reopen the bidding process last year.
>
> There's also a fair amount of political irony here... as in 2005,
> Gregoire was among the most vocal supporters of efforts by three
> Washington counties to bring the KC-30 assembly plant to the state.

A little competition keeps the pricing in check.
Wil

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
William Hung > wrote:

> A little competition keeps the pricing in check.

Don't have any experience with government acquisition do you?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 2, 9:23*pm, Bob Noel >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *William Hung > wrote:
>
> > A little competition keeps the pricing in check.
>
> Don't have any experience with government acquisition do you?
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Does it show? :-)

Wil

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 18:16:51 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gideon
> wrote:

>On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:55:13 +0000, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> It is a big blow to
>> Chicago-based Boeing
>
><heh> Maybe someone remembers Meigs.
>
Maybe they remember the big kick back scandal between Boeing and the
Air Force procurement a few years back.

> - Andrew
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:27:53 -0800 (PST), William Hung
> wrote:

>On Feb 28, 11:49*am, AJ > wrote:
>> (From Aero-News.net:)
>>
>> Washington Guv Raises Possibility Of Legal Action If KC-X Doesn't Go
>> To Boeing
>> Gregoire Believes Hometown Team Will Win Contract
>>
>> At this writing, Boeing hasn't lost the US Air Force's KC-X contract
>> to provide the service with new tankers just yet -- and many analysts
>> feel a Boeing win over a team comprised of EADS and Northrop Grumman
>> is all-but assured. But that didn't stop the governor of Washington
>> from threatening a possible legal protest if Boeing is denied the
>> contract.
>>
>> Speaking to reporters Tuesday after a meeting with the state's
>> congressional delegation, Gov. Chris Gregoire said the state could
>> file a congressional inquiry or take another course of action if
>> Boeing isn't awarded the KC-X deal.
>>
>> A decision from the Air Force was originally said to be coming as soon
>> as Wednesday evening... though officials said Wednesday afternoon not
>> to expect an announcement until Friday, at the earliest.
>>
<snip>
>> "If we don't win, then I think there'll be a lot of questions asked
>> about why in the world would Boeing, with that work force, that
>> expertise, that experience, that history -- how could they not have

The history of kickbacks with Air force procurement in 2002? Give or
take a year or two.

>> gotten this?" Gregoire then added, muddying the waters somewhat. "My
>> sense is there'll be a lot of questions raised and then we'll get into
>> the protest."
<snip>

>> There's also a fair amount of political irony here... as in 2005,
>> Gregoire was among the most vocal supporters of efforts by three
>> Washington counties to bring the KC-30 assembly plant to the state.
>
>A little competition keeps the pricing in check.

Also makes for some very nice gifts to the people in charge.
I didn't just say that did I?

>Wil
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com