Response to Harvey Swack

[flybd5]

In April of 2007 a Mr. Harvey Swack published a letter attacking the
"scruples" of Jim Bede, allegedly because Jim Bede did not flight test
the aircraft. The letter was in response to an article the son of a
BD-5 builder wrote about his experiences with his dad and the building
and flying of his BD-5. Mr. Swack then added: "I cringed when I read
the story because this family's tragedy could have been prevented if
the designer had any scruples at all."

I sent the following to Sport Aviation in response to that letter, and
it appears the response was never published. Because of that I am
publishing the entire response here.

-----

Dear Editor,

In response to Mr. Harvey Swack's letter in the Member's Forum section
of EAA Sport Aviation, I feel compelled to point out to your readers
that the web site of the BD-5 Network (www.bd5.com) contains a copy of
the content of a formal paper entitled "BD-5 FLIGHT TEST PROGRAM
REPORT" authored by the late Mr. Les Berven, former Chief Test Pilot
of Bede Aircraft Inc. This paper was submitted to and published by the
Society of Experimental Test Pilots. It is my understanding that Mr.
Berven remained an active test pilot and member of the Society until
his passing in December of 2001.

I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack. I also checked the
definition of the word "scruples" on the Princeton University online
lexical database for the English language (Wordnet), and the result I
was presented with is: "motivation deriving logically from ethical or
moral principles that govern a person's thoughts and actions."

I believe any further interpretation of this information should be
left to the readers of your fine publication. Thank you for the
opportunity to express our viewpoint on this matter.

Sincerely,
Juan E. Jiménez
Director, The BD-5 Network
http://www.bd5.com

[Anthony W]

We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. Get that turd
off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.

Tony

flybd5 wrote:
> In April of 2007 a Mr. Harvey Swack published a letter attacking the
> "scruples" of Jim Bede, allegedly because Jim Bede did not flight test
> the aircraft. The letter was in response to an article the son of a
> BD-5 builder wrote about his experiences with his dad and the building
> and flying of his BD-5. Mr. Swack then added: "I cringed when I read
> the story because this family's tragedy could have been prevented if
> the designer had any scruples at all."
>
> I sent the following to Sport Aviation in response to that letter, and
> it appears the response was never published. Because of that I am
> publishing the entire response here.
>
> -----
>
> Dear Editor,
>
> In response to Mr. Harvey Swack's letter in the Member's Forum section
> of EAA Sport Aviation, I feel compelled to point out to your readers
> that the web site of the BD-5 Network (www.bd5.com) contains a copy of
> the content of a formal paper entitled "BD-5 FLIGHT TEST PROGRAM
> REPORT" authored by the late Mr. Les Berven, former Chief Test Pilot
> of Bede Aircraft Inc. This paper was submitted to and published by the
> Society of Experimental Test Pilots. It is my understanding that Mr.
> Berven remained an active test pilot and member of the Society until
> his passing in December of 2001.
>
> I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
> any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
> aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack. I also checked the
> definition of the word "scruples" on the Princeton University online
> lexical database for the English language (Wordnet), and the result I
> was presented with is: "motivation deriving logically from ethical or
> moral principles that govern a person's thoughts and actions."
>
> I believe any further interpretation of this information should be
> left to the readers of your fine publication. Thank you for the
> opportunity to express our viewpoint on this matter.
>
> Sincerely,
> Juan E. Jiménez
> Director, The BD-5 Network
> http://www.bd5.com

[John Ammeter]

Why do I get a vivid mental picture of a little boy dressed in scruffy
torn jeans with bare feet poking a skunk with a sharpened stick???

John

Anthony W wrote:
> We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
> some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. Get that turd
> off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.

[Anthony W]

So you're saying I'm the little boy and wan is the skunk?

Tony

John Ammeter wrote:
> Why do I get a vivid mental picture of a little boy dressed in scruffy
> torn jeans with bare feet poking a skunk with a sharpened stick???
>
> John
>
> Anthony W wrote:
>> We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
>> some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. Get that
>> turd off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.

[Sliker]

They did test the BD-5, but to what extent I'm not sure. I used to
work at the airline with a guy that flew Jim Bede's DC-3 for him. And
he did say the BD group was having a ball spending everyones deposit
money. They let him fly one of the BD's with the Xenoa engine, which
was almost as fast as the jet. He said when he flew it, there was a
problem with the carb, where if you hit a bump than made the plane go
zero G or slightly negative, the engine would quit and all you would
hear was a hum coming from the prop as the drive system disengaged.
He also told me that the impression he got from the plane was that if
it had ever got into the hands of all the people that bought a kit, it
would have killed a lot of pilots.
Then on another occasion, I ate lunch with a guy that flew a jet BD-5,
and it had issues also. The one he flew he said when he would add
power, the whole fuselage seemed to suck in and make noises like a
beer can crushing inward. Then after he had flown for a while, he
looked down and noticed he had fuel sloshing around him under his
seat. Those issues could have been fixed most probably, but every time
I've talked to someone that's actually flown a BD5, it's always an
exciting story to say the least.
Rich


On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:53:58 -0800 (PST), flybd5 >
wrote:

>In April of 2007 a Mr. Harvey Swack published a letter attacking the
>"scruples" of Jim Bede, allegedly because Jim Bede did not flight test
>the aircraft. The letter was in response to an article the son of a
>BD-5 builder wrote about his experiences with his dad and the building
>and flying of his BD-5. Mr. Swack then added: "I cringed when I read
>the story because this family's tragedy could have been prevented if
>the designer had any scruples at all."
>
>I sent the following to Sport Aviation in response to that letter, and
>it appears the response was never published. Because of that I am
>publishing the entire response here.
>
>-----
>
>Dear Editor,
>
>In response to Mr. Harvey Swack's letter in the Member's Forum section
>of EAA Sport Aviation, I feel compelled to point out to your readers
>that the web site of the BD-5 Network (www.bd5.com) contains a copy of
>the content of a formal paper entitled "BD-5 FLIGHT TEST PROGRAM
>REPORT" authored by the late Mr. Les Berven, former Chief Test Pilot
>of Bede Aircraft Inc. This paper was submitted to and published by the
>Society of Experimental Test Pilots. It is my understanding that Mr.
>Berven remained an active test pilot and member of the Society until
>his passing in December of 2001.
>
>I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
>any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
>aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack. I also checked the
>definition of the word "scruples" on the Princeton University online
>lexical database for the English language (Wordnet), and the result I
>was presented with is: "motivation deriving logically from ethical or
>moral principles that govern a person's thoughts and actions."
>
>I believe any further interpretation of this information should be
>left to the readers of your fine publication. Thank you for the
>opportunity to express our viewpoint on this matter.
>
>Sincerely,
>Juan E. Jiménez
>Director, The BD-5 Network
>http://www.bd5.com

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:09:59 -0500, Sliker > wrote:

> They did test the BD-5, but to what extent I'm not sure. I used to
> work at the airline with a guy that flew Jim Bede's DC-3 for him.

I'm guessing that was Les Berven, who Juan mentions in his posting. Berven came
to talk to our EAA Chapter 15-20 years back. I remember him being very positive
of the performance and handling of the aircraft, but of course he spoke of the
many engine failures he'd suffered.

IIRC, the flight testing was being performed with an eye towards eventual
certification, and Berven made a lot of flights. As far as I remember, nothing
really stood in the way handling-wise, but of course a certain level of engine
reliability is expected!

I didn't see the letter in Sport Aviation, but it sounds like the writer is
Harvey Swack, the designer of the Baby Great Lakes. I'm guessing a small, slow
biplane is a lot more tolerant of builder error than a BD-5.

Sounds like I'll have to force myself past the Cirrus on the cover... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Ed Sullivan]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:49:13 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:09:59 -0500, Sliker > wrote:
>
>> They did test the BD-5, but to what extent I'm not sure. I used to
>> work at the airline with a guy that flew Jim Bede's DC-3 for him.
>
>I'm guessing that was Les Berven, who Juan mentions in his posting. Berven came
>to talk to our EAA Chapter 15-20 years back. I remember him being very positive
>of the performance and handling of the aircraft, but of course he spoke of the
>many engine failures he'd suffered.
>
>IIRC, the flight testing was being performed with an eye towards eventual
>certification, and Berven made a lot of flights. As far as I remember, nothing
>really stood in the way handling-wise, but of course a certain level of engine
>reliability is expected!
>
>I didn't see the letter in Sport Aviation, but it sounds like the writer is
>Harvey Swack, the designer of the Baby Great Lakes. I'm guessing a small, slow
>biplane is a lot more tolerant of builder error than a BD-5.
>
>Sounds like I'll have to force myself past the Cirrus on the cover... :-)
>
>Ron Wanttaja

Actually Harvey Swack didn't design the Baby Lakes, The late Barney
Oldfield did. Swack was just the peddler for the design.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 3, 9:11�am, Anthony W > wrote:
> We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
> some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. �Get that turd
> off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> flybd5 wrote:
> > In April of 2007 a Mr. Harvey Swack published a letter attacking the
> > "scruples" of Jim Bede, allegedly because Jim Bede did not flight test
> > the aircraft. The letter was in response to an article the son of a
> > BD-5 builder wrote about his experiences with his dad and the building
> > and flying of his BD-5. Mr. Swack then added: "I cringed when I read
> > the story because this family's tragedy could have been prevented if
> > the designer had any scruples at all."
>
> > I sent the following to Sport Aviation in response to that letter, and
> > it appears the response was never published. Because of that I am
> > publishing the entire response here.
>
> > -----
>
> > Dear Editor,
>
> > In response to Mr. Harvey Swack's letter in the Member's Forum section
> > of EAA Sport Aviation, I feel compelled to point out to your readers
> > that the web site of the BD-5 Network (www.bd5.com) contains a copy of
> > the content of a formal paper entitled "BD-5 FLIGHT TEST PROGRAM
> > REPORT" authored by the late Mr. Les Berven, former Chief Test Pilot
> > of Bede Aircraft Inc. This paper was submitted to and published by the
> > Society of Experimental Test Pilots. It is my understanding that Mr.
> > Berven remained an active test pilot and member of the Society until
> > his passing in December of 2001.
>
> > I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
> > any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
> > aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack. I also checked the
> > definition of the word "scruples" on the Princeton University online
> > lexical database for the English language (Wordnet), and the result I
> > was presented with is: "motivation deriving logically from ethical or
> > moral principles that govern a person's thoughts and actions."
>
> > I believe any further interpretation of this information should be
> > left to the readers of your fine publication. Thank you for the
> > opportunity to express our viewpoint on this matter.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Juan E. Jim�nez
> > Director, The BD-5 Network
> >http://www.bd5.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually, the Air Force did an fairly extensive test program on the
BD-5J. My partner, Skip Holm, Skunkwork and air racing fame, was one
of the test pilots on the program. Quite frankly, Skip said he had a
fairly fun time with the aircraft. It would do maneuvers that Skip
thought would be great at an airshows. One in particular was flying
straight and level, then do a series of rudder reversals. After 3 or
4 reversals (these are hard over reversals), the BD would do a 360
degree pirouette. The altitude lose was only around 150 ft. The
entry speed was approximately 150 kts. Anyway, there was a fairly
extensive flight test program.

The results were sort of mixed. The flying qualities were not to
airforce standard, but nonetheless, Skip's impression was that "it was
fun to fly". Obviously, the airforce elected not to continue any
further with the program (a pilot proficiency aircraft), and the rest
was history. Several of the BDs were destroyed during the eval
effort. Unfortunately, one pilot became a parapalegic in an accident
where the thrust reverser was deployed unbeknownst to him. Another
was fairly torn apart in a spin test (Skip). The skins came lose on
the wing and dumping the fuel with an ensuing landing on the runway
with wing skins dragging (I didn't witness this, but Skp told me the
story, he was obviously flying that day.).

Thought you folks may be interested in the story. One could probably
say that the BD-5 had far more testing that just about any
experimental aircraft. And the testing was by real professional
engineering test pilots.

Best Regards,

Dave

[Dan[_2_]]

John Ammeter wrote:
> Why do I get a vivid mental picture of a little boy dressed in scruffy
> torn jeans with bare feet poking a skunk with a sharpened stick???
>
> John

The term "masochist" comes to mind.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Foley]

"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
...

> >I didn't see the letter in Sport Aviation, but it sounds like the writer
is
> >Harvey Swack, the designer of the Baby Great Lakes. I'm guessing a
small, slow
> >biplane is a lot more tolerant of builder error than a BD-5.
> >
> >Sounds like I'll have to force myself past the Cirrus on the cover... :-)
> >
> >Ron Wanttaja
>
> Actually Harvey Swack didn't design the Baby Lakes, The late Barney
> Oldfield did. Swack was just the peddler for the design.

I find it amazing that no flight testing was ever done on the Baby Great
Lakes. How could it, if this statement is true:

"I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack."

[Pelican]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:49:13 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:09:59 -0500, Sliker > wrote:
>
>> They did test the BD-5, but to what extent I'm not sure. I used to
>> work at the airline with a guy that flew Jim Bede's DC-3 for him.
>
>I'm guessing that was Les Berven, who Juan mentions in his posting. Berven came
>to talk to our EAA Chapter 15-20 years back. I remember him being very positive
>of the performance and handling of the aircraft, but of course he spoke of the
>many engine failures he'd suffered.
>
>IIRC, the flight testing was being performed with an eye towards eventual
>certification, and Berven made a lot of flights. As far as I remember, nothing
>really stood in the way handling-wise, but of course a certain level of engine
>reliability is expected!
>
>I didn't see the letter in Sport Aviation, but it sounds like the writer is
>Harvey Swack, the designer of the Baby Great Lakes. I'm guessing a small, slow
>biplane is a lot more tolerant of builder error than a BD-5.
>
>Sounds like I'll have to force myself past the Cirrus on the cover... :-)
>
>Ron Wanttaja

No it wasn't Les, it was a guy named J.B.Williams.

[Ed Sullivan]

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:57:53 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:

>"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
...
>
>> >I didn't see the letter in Sport Aviation, but it sounds like the writer
>is
>> >Harvey Swack, the designer of the Baby Great Lakes. I'm guessing a
>small, slow
>> >biplane is a lot more tolerant of builder error than a BD-5.
>> >
>> >Sounds like I'll have to force myself past the Cirrus on the cover... :-)
>> >
>> >Ron Wanttaja
>>
>> Actually Harvey Swack didn't design the Baby Lakes, The late Barney
>> Oldfield did. Swack was just the peddler for the design.
>
>I find it amazing that no flight testing was ever done on the Baby Great
>Lakes. How could it, if this statement is true:
>
>"I performed an extensive search on the Internet, and could not find
>any similar documents for any aircraft designed by Mr. Swack, or any
>aircraft associated with the name of Mr. Swack."
>
Flight testing was probably done by Mr. Swack who sold plans for it
and several variants designed by I know not who. I flew one for a
couple of years and it was a neat little bird. I think the plans are
sold now through aircraft spruce.

Ed Sullivan

[Richard Isakson]

> wrote...
<Thought you folks may be interested in the story. One could probably
<say that the BD-5 had far more testing that just about any
<experimental aircraft. And the testing was by real professional
<engineering test pilots.


Dave,

Keep in mind, both the performance and the stability of the prop version of
the plane are much different then the jet version used in rhe Air Force
program.

Rich

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Richard Isakson wrote:

> > wrote...
> <Thought you folks may be interested in the story. One could probably
> <say that the BD-5 had far more testing that just about any
> <experimental aircraft. And the testing was by real professional
> <engineering test pilots.
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Keep in mind, both the performance and the stability of the prop version of
> the plane are much different then the jet version used in rhe Air Force
> program.
>
> Rich
>
>

However, both have very light stick pressure, nearly zero breakout force
and hardly any stick gradient (increasing stick pressure with increasing
G load).

Which is quite unlike the feel of Air Force inventory.

And can make the plane a handful for a ham handed pilot.

Richard

[flybd5]

On Mar 3, 11:11 am, Anthony W > wrote:
> We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
> some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. Get that turd
> off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.
>
> Tony

Like many other minor ****ant dweebs in this newsgroup you appear to
be confusing me with someone who gives a flying intercourse what you
think. Trust me when I tell you you're barking up the wrong tree, boy.

Search the web for the name Les Berven. He flew over 1,000 hours on
the BD-5 flight test program, on both recip and jets. If you've ever
flown any airliners Boeing has produced since the 1970's, you have Les
Berven to thank for making sure the aircraft flies as it was designed
to. If you've ever been warned about wake turbulence on approach to a
runway, you have Les Berven to thank for that. And that's just for
starters.

"Berven test flew and certified every make of Boeing airliner since
the late 1970s, and made a name for himself pushing these aircraft to
their limits.While test flying the 777 in the mid-1990s, Berven once
performed 54 stall tests in a single day. In 1995, Berven helped
investigate the crash of a US Airways Boeing 737 near Pittsburgh. A
wake vortex was suspected, and to test the theory Berven flew a 737
into wake vortices over 200 times."

Sit your diapered butt down and STFU, sonny.

Juan

[Anthony W]

flybd5 wrote:
> On Mar 3, 11:11 am, Anthony W > wrote:
>> We won't believe a word you say on the subject until you have logged
>> some serious hours in the piece of crap you call a BD5j. Get that turd
>> off the ground and maybe you will gain a milligram of credibility.
>>
>> Tony
>
> Like many other minor ****ant dweebs in this newsgroup you appear to
> be confusing me with someone who gives a flying intercourse what you
> think. Trust me when I tell you you're barking up the wrong tree, boy.
>
> Juan

Nope you still haven't got that turd off the ground.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"sean trost" > wrote

> HEY Jaun's Back !

Tue, and just like a hemorrhoid.

A pain in the butt.
--
Jim in NC

[Steve Foley]

"flybd5" > wrote in message
...

> Trust me when I tell you ...............................

Can you name a single reason why I should trust you?

I cannot.