Ack!! video A320 xwind in Germany

[gatt[_2_]]

WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
@corp.supernews.com:

> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>
>
>

Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.

Bertie

[Jim Logajan]

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>
>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>
>>
>>
>
> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.

Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080303/ap_on_re_eu/germany_rough_landing

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jim Logajan > posted:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>
>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>
>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>
> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>
Could it have been caused by that wing almost hitting the ground? ;-)

The entire approach looked bogus to me, but I'm nowhere near a heavy
driver. The result was exactly what I'd expect with that technique...

--
Neil

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>
>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>
>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>
> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:

Nah. has to be a misprint. probably 55 mph.

He may have encountered a gust at that point, but it wouldn't have done
that to the airplane.

I've flown smaller in heavier winds than that.
In fact, I was flying in that storm not a million miles from where he was.
Our runway was more aligned with the wind than his was, though. We were
getting 50 plus in gusts about twenty degrees off with a baseline of about
38.


Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Mar 3, 1:50*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
> > WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>
> >http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>
> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>
> Bertie

Hah, I was about to post this vid and ask Bertie about it.

He crabbed in, then straightening out his upwind wing (not lowered)
got caught by the x wind.

I've seen numerous vids of jetliners crabbing in.

So if he'd sideslipped in with the upwind wing down and HELD it after
touch down maybe that is what would have worked? I'm assuming the the
GA approach holds for jetliners, like I said, I can't tell if I've
ever seen a jetliner sideslip vid.

If that's not the way, what is (other than the obvious find a better
runway option).

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in news:y9Zyj.19181$J41.7752
@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net:

> Recently, Jim Logajan > posted:
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>>
>> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>>
> Could it have been caused by that wing almost hitting the ground? ;-)
>
> The entire approach looked bogus to me, but I'm nowhere near a heavy
> driver. The result was exactly what I'd expect with that technique...

The approach was fine all the way to the flare.

Bertie
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

wrote in news:9c6e930e-6cf4-4f7d-b2f1-
:

> On Mar 3, 1:50*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>
>> > WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>
>> >http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>
>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Hah, I was about to post this vid and ask Bertie about it.
>
> He crabbed in, then straightening out his upwind wing (not lowered)
> got caught by the x wind.
>
> I've seen numerous vids of jetliners crabbing in.
>
> So if he'd sideslipped in with the upwind wing down and HELD it after
> touch down maybe that is what would have worked? I'm assuming the the
> GA approach holds for jetliners, like I said, I can't tell if I've
> ever seen a jetliner sideslip vid.
>
> If that's not the way, what is (other than the obvious find a better
> runway option).
>



Well, if ground clearance isn;t an issue, and it isn't for most, the
technique is the same except most guys who slip just do it as they enter
the flare, crabbing up to that point. Boeing recommend slipping from
about 200 feet down and in fact the autpilot will do that itself if
you're doing an autoland.. Another poster has said that the A320 won't
slip no matter what. I've asked a few A3whatever pilots in the past
about how the flight controls work in that thing and never did get a
saitisfactory answer. I've even flown an A320 for a little bit and i
whatever mode we were in was very like an autpilot mode in most
airplanes. The airplane merely held whatever attitude I left it in in
pitch and would only turn if the stick was held..


Bertie


Bertie

[Jim Logajan]

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Jim Logajan > wrote in
> :
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>>
>> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>
> Nah. has to be a misprint. probably 55 mph.
>
> He may have encountered a gust at that point, but it wouldn't have
> done
> that to the airplane.
>
> I've flown smaller in heavier winds than that.
> In fact, I was flying in that storm not a million miles from where he
> was. Our runway was more aligned with the wind than his was, though.
> We were getting 50 plus in gusts about twenty degrees off with a
> baseline of about 38.

This article has more details that do seem to suggest a misreporting (if
not a typo) of the wind speed:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html

Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of this
story contained information from German wire service DPA that listed the
strength of storm winds near the airport at 250 kilometers-per-hour (155
miles per hour)."

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Jim Logajan > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>>>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>>>
>>> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>>
>> Nah. has to be a misprint. probably 55 mph.
>>
>> He may have encountered a gust at that point, but it wouldn't have
>> done
>> that to the airplane.
>>
>> I've flown smaller in heavier winds than that.
>> In fact, I was flying in that storm not a million miles from where he
>> was. Our runway was more aligned with the wind than his was, though.
>> We were getting 50 plus in gusts about twenty degrees off with a
>> baseline of about 38.
>
> This article has more details that do seem to suggest a misreporting
(if
> not a typo) of the wind speed:
>
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>
> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of this
> story contained information from German wire service DPA that listed
the
> strength of storm winds near the airport at 250 kilometers-per-hour
(155
> miles per hour)."

Yeah, I think there were regions that did get winds of near that
strenght, but even leaving the reporting aside, it's pretty plain to see
that it;s the airplane itself causing those gyrations, not the wind. If
you eliminate the ground from that picture and just look at the
airplane's control deflections. wind or no wind it will do just what it
did if the rudder is kicked with nothing to stop the roll.


Bertie
>

[D Ramapriya]

On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>
> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of this
> story contained information from German wire service DPA that listed the
> strength of storm winds near the airport at 250 kilometers-per-hour (155
> miles per hour)."


Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)

Ramapriya

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 3, 12:57*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> wrote in news:9c6e930e-6cf4-4f7d-b2f1-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 1:50*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
> >> @corp.supernews.com:
>
> >> > WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>
> >> >http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>
> >> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > Hah, I was about to post this vid and ask Bertie about it.
>
> > He crabbed in, then straightening out his upwind wing (not lowered)
> > got caught by the x wind.
>
> > I've seen numerous vids of jetliners crabbing in.
>
> > So if he'd sideslipped in with the upwind wing down and HELD it after
> > touch down maybe that is what would have worked? I'm assuming the the
> > GA approach holds for jetliners, like I said, I can't tell if I've
> > ever seen a jetliner sideslip vid.
>
> > If that's not the way, what is (other than the obvious find a better
> > runway option).
>
> Well, if ground clearance isn;t an issue, and it isn't for most, the
> technique is the same except most guys who slip just do it as they enter
> the flare, crabbing up to that point.

Yea, that's call the "crab and kick" its common with jet jocks and,
sadly, becoming the most common way CFI's teach in C-150's today. I'm
still a big fan of the slipping method because my background is
taildraggers and the crab&kick method doesn't work in taildraggers.

-robert, CFII

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:5e393001-314a-46e0-aeb0-
:

>> the flare, crabbing up to that point.
>
> Yea, that's call the "crab and kick" its common with jet jocks and,
> sadly, becoming the most common way CFI's teach in C-150's today. I'm
> still a big fan of the slipping method because my background is
> taildraggers and the crab&kick method doesn't work in taildraggers.

Doesn't really work all that well with anything, but it's a neccesary evil
in some airplanes. High performance fighter jets have to do it and some
airliners, especially four engined ones, but the video clearly illustrates
why, in max winds, it's just nowhere near as effective.

Bertie

[Marty Shapiro]

D Ramapriya > wrote in news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
:

> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>>
>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>>
>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of this
>> story contained information from German wire service DPA that listed the
>> strength of storm winds near the airport at 250 kilometers-per-hour (155
>> miles per hour)."
>
>
> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>
> Ramapriya
>

On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated the
winds were 150 miles per hour.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Marty Shapiro > wrote in
:

> D Ramapriya > wrote in
> news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
> :
>
>> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>>>
>>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
>>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA that
>>> listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
>>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
>>
>>
>> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>>
>> Ramapriya
>>
>
> On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated
> the winds were 150 miles per hour.

They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away vetically.
I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing about 50 in the
gusts.


Bertie

[Vaughn Simon]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> Doesn't really work all that well with anything, but it's a neccesary evil
> in some airplanes. High performance fighter jets have to do it and some
> airliners, especially four engined ones,

And most gliders. The issue is ground clearance with those long wings. I
was originally a glider pilot and I still have to think ahead and hold my mouth
just right before I can slip a power plane all the way down to touchdown.

Vaughn

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> Marty Shapiro > wrote in
> :
>
> > D Ramapriya > wrote in
> > news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
> > :
> >
> >> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
> >>>
> >>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
> >>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA that
> >>> listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
> >>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
> >>
> >>
> >> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
> >>
> >> Ramapriya
> >>
> >
> > On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated
> > the winds were 150 miles per hour.
>
> They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away vetically.
> I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing about 50 in the
> gusts.
>
>
> Bertie

It still raises a couple of questions:

1. Why did ATC direct them to a runway with such an excessive crosswind?

2. Why did the Captain accept such a clearance?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Marty Shapiro]

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote in
:

> Marty Shapiro > wrote in
> :
>
>> D Ramapriya > wrote in
>> news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
>> :
>>
>>> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>>>>
>>>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
>>>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA that
>>>> listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
>>>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>>>
>>> Ramapriya
>>>
>>
>> On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated
>> the winds were 150 miles per hour.
>
> They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away
> vetically. I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing about
> 50 in the gusts.
>
>
> Bertie

Accuracy from a news report regarding aviation -- no way! Not only did
they say it was a 150 MPH crosswind, they also stated that both wings hit
the runway.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Stubby[_2_]]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Why did the pilot even start the approach with such high and gusty winds?
Also, what is Lufthansa's policy regarding Max Crosswinds? What does the
POH say the Max Demonstrated Crosswind capability is?

After crabbing for awhile, it looks like he tried to slip. Then when the
plane hit the runway, the landing gear made it fly level. The wind caught
under the right wing and nearly flipped the plane. I'm glad he flew out of
the situation rather than trying to kill the power and stearing out.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Stubby" > wrote in
:

> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>
>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>
> Why did the pilot even start the approach with such high and gusty
> winds? Also, what is Lufthansa's policy regarding Max Crosswinds?

It's normal to do so when it's within limits.

> What does the POH say the Max Demonstrated Crosswind capability is?

We don't have POH's. We have an AFM which is effectively the same thing
>
> After crabbing for awhile, it looks like he tried to slip.

Nope.


Then when
> the plane hit the runway, the landing gear made it fly level.


Nope.


The
> wind caught under the right wing and nearly flipped the plane. I'm
> glad he flew out of the situation rather than trying to kill the power
> and stearing out.
>
>

Nope.


Bertie
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Doesn't really work all that well with anything, but it's a neccesary
>> evil in some airplanes. High performance fighter jets have to do it
>> and some airliners, especially four engined ones,
>
> And most gliders. The issue is ground clearance with those long
> wings. I
> was originally a glider pilot and I still have to think ahead and hold
> my mouth just right before I can slip a power plane all the way down
> to touchdown.


Yep, but the side load matters little in the glider case since you just
slide on the grass anyways/

I learned to fly in them too.




Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Orval Fairbairn > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Marty Shapiro > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > D Ramapriya > wrote in
>> > news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
>> > :
>> >
>> >> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
>> >>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA
>> >>> that listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
>> >>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>> >>
>> >> Ramapriya
>> >>
>> >
>> > On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they
>> > stated the winds were 150 miles per hour.
>>
>> They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away
>> vetically. I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing
>> about 50 in the gusts.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> It still raises a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Why did ATC direct them to a runway with such an excessive
> crosswind?
>
> 2. Why did the Captain accept such a clearance?


Probably it was within limits.. I just got of the phone with an A320
friend of mine. Demonstrated x-wind as published by Airbus is 35 knots.
He reckons Lufty might have that shortened to 33.
If it's within limits you take it if you are comfortable.
The wind may have veered and or strengthened while he was on approach.
That's tkind of th enature of high wind. We try and keep an ear out for
the current wind as we're making the aproach.Also, we have several wind
displays on board. There'd be a wind arrow on the nav screen with
direction and strength, and a digital display breaking it down into head
and crosswind components, so the crew can see whan the wind is where
they are at any given moment. In short, they knew what the wind was on
the runway and it would have been within limits when they shot the
approach.

>

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Marty Shapiro > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote in
> :
>
>> Marty Shapiro > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> D Ramapriya > wrote in
>>> news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
>>> :
>>>
>>>> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
>>>>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA that
>>>>> listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
>>>>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>>>>
>>>> Ramapriya
>>>>
>>>
>>> On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated
>>> the winds were 150 miles per hour.
>>
>> They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away
>> vetically. I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing
>> about 50 in the gusts.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Accuracy from a news report regarding aviation -- no way! Not only
> did they say it was a 150 MPH crosswind, they also stated that both
> wings hit the runway.
>
It looks like they did, actually. Looks like he got them both in turn if
you watch carefully. There's a stil shot out there of the left most
definitely on the ground and if you look at the video the right seems to
be touching as he aborts as well. Could be that the right is just
raising a little wake in the water, though.


Bertie

[gliderguynj]

Doing a simple Google yielded some historical wind gusts for the
Hamburg area show about 46mph. I'm amazed that the mis information is
still being put out there. Yahoo still has it on their homepage.
There wasn't even a question that the guys chatting and video taping
at the field might have had just a bit of a tough time doing so in
150mph winds?

Would a jet make a second attempt in 155mph winds at the same field?
This is one of the best examples of media stupidity as it refers to
Aviation.

Doug

[Al G[_1_]]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Marty Shapiro > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > D Ramapriya > wrote in
>> > news:706e02c1-4a48-4b69-91e9-
>> > :
>> >
>> >> On Mar 4, 1:04 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538926,00.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Scroll to the bottom for an editor's note: "An earlier version of
>> >>> this story contained information from German wire service DPA that
>> >>> listed the strength of storm winds near the airport at 250
>> >>> kilometers-per-hour (155 miles per hour)."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jim, it was the plane that was traveling @ 155 mph :)
>> >>
>> >> Ramapriya
>> >>
>> >
>> > On the local CBS news tonight (Channel 5, San Francisco) they stated
>> > the winds were 150 miles per hour.
>>
>> They weren't. If they had been, the A320 would have climbed away
>> vetically.
>> I was inthe area at the time, BTW, and it was blowing about 50 in the
>> gusts.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> It still raises a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Why did ATC direct them to a runway with such an excessive crosswind?
>
> 2. Why did the Captain accept such a clearance?
>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Winds were 290, choices were 23 or 33.

EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO
29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008

Al G

[Dallas]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:17:31 -0800, Al G wrote:

> Winds were 290, choices were 23 or 33.
>
> EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO
> 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008

Gust to 48 from my E6B:

Rwy 23 - x-wind: 41.6 h-wind: 24

Rwy 33 - x-wind: 30.9 h-wind: 36.8


--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:57:26 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

> Boeing recommend slipping from
> about 200 feet down

So Bertie, will this pilot, "Oliver A.", generally be seen in the pilot
community as having screwed up?

Could he have prevented the wing strike by slamming the stick to the right
as he was kicking out of the crab?

I also guessing Lufthansa's corporate line will be to call him a hero
rather than admit that their pilots don't know how to land an airplane.


--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:15:37 -0800 (PST), gliderguynj wrote:

> Would a jet make a second attempt in 155mph winds at the same field?

Not to mention that it would be impossible to kick an airliner straight
with 155 mph gust slamming the vertical stabilizer.


--
Dallas

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dallas > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:57:26 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> Boeing recommend slipping from
>> about 200 feet down
>
> So Bertie, will this pilot, "Oliver A.", generally be seen in the
> pilot community as having screwed up?

I don't think so. Not if the numbers were reasonable on approach. Many of
the accident reports I've read afterwards gave me a sick "that could have
happened to anyone, incuding me" type of feeling, which is what makes them
worth reading , of course.
>
> Could he have prevented the wing strike by slamming the stick to the
> right as he was kicking out of the crab?

I don't know. The FBW 'Busses are supposed to be able to sort those thngs
out themselves.
>
> I also guessing Lufthansa's corporate line will be to call him a hero
> rather than admit that their pilots don't know how to land an
> airplane.

Well, I don't know that he did do anything wrong. My only point in posting
the link was to point out that the kick it straight school of landing an
airplane is an inferior way of landing an airplane whether it's done by
computer or a pilot. The 757 I fly is roughly a similar size and
configuration and slipping it onto the runway gives a demonstrated 40 knot
x-wind. I've flown in quite nearly that component and it's actually
relatively easy. There's enough control authority to keep it straight even
in that wind.

Bertie

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 4, 12:10*pm, Dallas > wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:57:26 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> > *Boeing recommend slipping from
> > about 200 feet down
>
> So Bertie, will this pilot, "Oliver A.", generally be seen in the pilot
> community as having screwed up?

CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old. Maybe she doesn't
have a lot of experience in cross wind landings??

-Robert

[Jim Stewart]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Mar 4, 12:10 pm, Dallas > wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:57:26 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>> Boeing recommend slipping from
>>> about 200 feet down
>> So Bertie, will this pilot, "Oliver A.", generally be seen in the pilot
>> community as having screwed up?
>
> CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old. Maybe she doesn't
> have a lot of experience in cross wind landings??

She got several years worth that day...

[Dallas]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:35:07 -0800 (PST), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old.

A chick named "Oliver"?

:-/

--
Dallas

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Recently, Jim Logajan > posted:
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> "gatt" > wrote in news:13sol8u8jlhokb5
>>> @corp.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't so much the crosswind as the technique used to deal with it.
>>
>> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>>
>Could it have been caused by that wing almost hitting the ground? ;-)
>
>The entire approach looked bogus to me, but I'm nowhere near a heavy
>driver. The result was exactly what I'd expect with that technique...
>

Why? The approach was perfect until the moment he had to get the right
wing down and "couldn't" or just "didn't" .We'll have to wait for a full
analysis from Mxmanic to be sure though. . .

[TheSmokingGnu]

Dallas wrote:
> A chick named "Oliver"?

"What'd you see?"

"Oliver".

(all-of-her)

:P

TheSmokingGnu

[Christian Buxel]

Dallas schrieb:
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:35:07 -0800 (PST), Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old.
>
> A chick named "Oliver"?
>
> :-/
>
Of course not, Oliver A. (39) was captain on that flight and Maxi J. (24
and female) was FO

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,539373,00.html

Christian

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 6 Mar, 05:47, Airbus > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Dallas schrieb:
> >> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:35:07 -0800 (PST), Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> >>> CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old.
>
> >> A chick named "Oliver"?
>
> >> :-/
>
> >Of course not, Oliver A. (39) was captain on that flight and Maxi J. (24
> >and female) was FO
>
> >http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,539373,00.html
>
> >Christian
>
> Maxi J. *- *This just gets better and better!
> And the "experienced" 36-year-old captain gives her her "first landing" in
> the middle of a cyclone - saving the day just as the winglet gets scraped
> off! I thought it was cute when Karen Black flew the 747, but those
> screenwriters wouldn't have dreamed of this . . .- Hide quoted text -


Well, they gotta learn somehow! I was not a million miles from there
around the same time with a neophyte FO and I let him land it. The x-
wind componenet wasn't so much and I briefed him at length on method
during the approach, but I don't think I'd have let him land with that
much x-wind.

BTW, these things are able to be slipped in a crosswind.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/969255/amazing_crosswind_landing/



Bertie

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Dallas schrieb:
>> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:35:07 -0800 (PST), Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>>> CNN is reporting that she is onlly 24 years old.
>>
>> A chick named "Oliver"?
>>
>> :-/
>>
>Of course not, Oliver A. (39) was captain on that flight and Maxi J. (24
>and female) was FO
>
>http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,539373,00.html
>
>Christian


Maxi J. - This just gets better and better!
And the "experienced" 36-year-old captain gives her her "first landing" in
the middle of a cyclone - saving the day just as the winglet gets scraped
off! I thought it was cute when Karen Black flew the 747, but those
screenwriters wouldn't have dreamed of this . . .

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:05:57 -0800 (PST), Bertie the Bunyip
> wrote:


>Well, they gotta learn somehow! I was not a million miles from there
>around the same time with a neophyte FO and I let him land it. The x-
>wind componenet wasn't so much and I briefed him at length on method
>during the approach, but I don't think I'd have let him land with that
>much x-wind.
>
>BTW, these things are able to be slipped in a crosswind.
>
>http://www.metacafe.com/watch/969255/amazing_crosswind_landing/

What kind of bank angle do you need to have before you start worrying
about striking a pod in one of these? Isn't the 73 a significant
number less?

[[email protected]]

On Mar 4, 2:18 pm, Dallas > wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:15:37 -0800 (PST), gliderguynj wrote:
> > Would a jet make a second attempt in 155mph winds at the same field?
>
> Not to mention that it would be impossible to kick an airliner straight
> with 155 mph gust slamming the vertical stabilizer.
>
> --
> Dallas

Karen Black could do it, if George Kennedy talked her through it.

[Tina]

The comments on Utube associated with this video talk about the pilot
skills! If I know that pilot was in the front of the airplane, I'd be
getting off, thank you very much. It looked like she tried to make a
coordinated turn toward the center of the runway during the flare but
whatever was going on, it took a few seconds too long to decide to get
out of there.









On Mar 3, 2:46*pm, "gatt" > wrote:
> WTF kind of crosswind does it take to cause this?
>
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

[Airbus[_4_]]

In article
>,
says...

>
>Well, they gotta learn somehow!


FO's, or screenwriters??

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Tina > wrote:

>The comments on Utube associated with this video talk about the pilot
>skills!

Better yet to have good judgment that results in a diversion to an
airport with better runway orientation. That landing was too close
to becoming a crash.

Ron Lee

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Airbus > wrote in :

> In article
> >,
> says...
>
>>
>>Well, they gotta learn somehow!
>
>
> FO's, or screenwriters??
>
>

FO's.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Peter Clark > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:05:57 -0800 (PST), Bertie the Bunyip
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Well, they gotta learn somehow! I was not a million miles from there
>>around the same time with a neophyte FO and I let him land it. The x-
>>wind componenet wasn't so much and I briefed him at length on method
>>during the approach, but I don't think I'd have let him land with that
>>much x-wind.
>>
>>BTW, these things are able to be slipped in a crosswind.
>>
>>http://www.metacafe.com/watch/969255/amazing_crosswind_landing/
>
> What kind of bank angle do you need to have before you start worrying
> about striking a pod in one of these? Isn't the 73 a significant
> number less?
>

Depends on the airplane, obviously, but you have enough on most airplanes
bar the old four engined ones and the MD80 series to slip enough st the
demonstrated limit to have plenty of room. I've landed 737s in 30 knots (
their demonstrated limit) and had room. Our airline had a tip strike very
like that in significantly less wind, though. Let's just say it wasnt a
well flown landing...

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Tina > wrote in news:f11251d6-c50b-46a0-a6e6-
:

> The comments on Utube associated with this video talk about the pilot
> skills! If I know that pilot was in the front of the airplane, I'd be
> getting off, thank you very much. It looked like she tried to make a
> coordinated turn toward the center of the runway during the flare but
> whatever was going on, it took a few seconds too long to decide to get
> out of there.
>

What hapened was she put a great big boot of udder in and no aileron to
counter it. it may be that the airplane didn't let her, but she was wel
within the direct law envelope and I've been assured by (most, well, two
out of three) A320 guys I know that the airplane will slip just like any
other.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

(Ron Lee) wrote in news:47d0218a.8604109
@news.pcisys.net:

> Tina > wrote:
>
>>The comments on Utube associated with this video talk about the pilot
>>skills!
>
> Better yet to have good judgment that results in a diversion to an
> airport with better runway orientation. That landing was too close
> to becoming a crash.
>

If it was within limits it's done every day of the week all over the world.


Bertie

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 7, 5:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> What hapened was she put a great big boot of udder in and no aileron to
> counter it. ....
>
> Bertie

Are you sure she put udder in?

If so that explains it....


Dan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dan > wrote in news:f0d7a9f7-53af-4d5a-97ce-73a8f8aa89c3
@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 7, 5:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> What hapened was she put a great big boot of udder in and no aileron to
>> counter it. ....
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Are you sure she put udder in?
>
> If so that explains it....
>

****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit send!
You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!

Bertie

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > Are you sure she put udder in?
>
> > If so that explains it....
>
> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit send!
> You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!
>
> Bertie

I have few talents, so give me this one.

I'm like a modern debugger!

Dan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dan > wrote in news:286acfec-1e83-4e7a-9bfc-
:

> On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> > Are you sure she put udder in?
>>
>> > If so that explains it....
>>
>> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit send!
>> You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I have few talents, so give me this one.
>
> I'm like a modern debugger!

I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.

Bertie

[AJ]

On Mar 3, 2:59 pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> Perhaps so - but it's been alleged there was a wind gust of 155 mph:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080303/ap_on_re_eu/germany_rough_landing

Actually the plane was traveling at 155mph. There was no mention of
wind speed.

[Everett M. Greene[_2_]]

Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
> Dan > wrote
> > On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Are you sure she put udder in?
> >>
> >> > If so that explains it....
> >>
> >> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit send!
> >> You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!
> >
> > I have few talents, so give me this one.
> >
> > I'm like a modern debugger!
>
> I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.

My coworkers and I were getting a good laugh about an ad
our employer had run looking for editors. The number of
errors in the ad led to the common comment that we have
a very definite need for at least one.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

(Everett M. Greene) wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
>> Dan > wrote
>> > On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Are you sure she put udder in?
>> >>
>> >> > If so that explains it....
>> >>
>> >> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit
>> >> send! You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!
>> >
>> > I have few talents, so give me this one.
>> >
>> > I'm like a modern debugger!
>>
>> I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.
>
> My coworkers and I were getting a good laugh about an ad
> our employer had run looking for editors. The number of
> errors in the ad led to the common comment that we have
> a very definite need for at least one.
>

On th eplus side, my typing speed is phenomonal.

Bertie

[[email protected]]

On 7 Mar, 20:16, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> (Everett M. Greene) wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
> >> Dan > wrote
> >> > On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >> > Are you sure she put udder in?
>
> >> >> > If so that explains it....
>
> >> >> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I hit
> >> >> send! You get the brass ring for the first predictable reply!
>
> >> > I have few talents, so give me this one.
>
> >> > I'm like a modern debugger!
>
> >> I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.
>
> > My coworkers and I were getting a good laugh about an ad
> > our employer had run looking for editors. *The number of
> > errors in the ad led to the common comment that we have
> > a very definite need for at least one.
>
> On th eplus side, my typing speed is phenomonal.
>
> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Apologies if these have already been published.

Here are some stills of the incident.

http://www.stationstops.com/2008/03/03/breaking-video-amazing-footage-of-lufthansa-a320-wing-crashing-into-runway-in-hamburg/
"In addition to an unattributed internet video of the
entire landing (below), photographer Lars Tretau
captured stunning close-in photographs from a
different angle which can be found /here and here/."

Follow the links "here and here".
This is even scarier than the video.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

wrote in
:

> On 7 Mar, 20:16, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> (Everett M. Greene) wrote
>> innews:200
> :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
>> >> Dan > wrote
>> >> > On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > Are you sure she put udder in?
>>
>> >> >> > If so that explains it....
>>
>> >> >> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I
>> >> >> hit send! You get the brass ring for the first predictable
>> >> >> reply!
>>
>> >> > I have few talents, so give me this one.
>>
>> >> > I'm like a modern debugger!
>>
>> >> I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.
>>
>> > My coworkers and I were getting a good laugh about an ad
>> > our employer had run looking for editors. *The number of
>> > errors in the ad led to the common comment that we have
>> > a very definite need for at least one.
>>
>> On th eplus side, my typing speed is phenomonal.
>>
>> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Apologies if these have already been published.
>
> Here are some stills of the incident.
>
> http://www.stationstops.com/2008/03/03/breaking-video-amazing-footage-
o
> f-lufthansa-a320-wing-crashing-into-runway-in-hamburg/ "In addition to
> an unattributed internet video of the entire landing (below),
> photographer Lars Tretau captured stunning close-in photographs from a
> different angle which can be found /here and here/."
>
> Follow the links "here and here".
> This is even scarier than the video.

Don;t see the links to the stills. I have seen one where the left wing
touches. This was not quite as close to disaster as it looks , though.
Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.


Bertie
>

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
> Don;t see the links to the stills. I have seen one where the left wing
> touches. This was not quite as close to disaster as it looks , though.
> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.

Here are the links:

http://www.hamburg-airport-friends-forum.de/showthread.php?tid=763&pid=2607#pid2607
http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads/47cac866110ee/phpOltUWB.jpg

Or, as tinyurls:
http://tinyurl.com/2het72
http://tinyurl.com/3d44he

Chris

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Christopher Brian Colohan > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
>> Don;t see the links to the stills. I have seen one where the left
>> wing touches. This was not quite as close to disaster as it looks ,
>> though. Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>
> Here are the links:
>
> http://www.hamburg-airport-friends-forum.de/showthread.php?tid=763
&pid=
> 2607#pid2607
> http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads/47cac866110ee/phpOltUWB.jpg
>
> Or, as tinyurls:
> http://tinyurl.com/2het72
> http://tinyurl.com/3d44he
>
> Chris
>

Doesn't look all that bad really. One of our guys scraped the wing on a
737 800 in a similar sort of incident a few years back. It's a pretty
commmon thing in lightplanes too.


Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> wrote in
> :
>
> > On 7 Mar, 20:16, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> (Everett M. Greene) wrote
> >> innews:200
> > :
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Bertie the Bunyip > writes:
> >> >> Dan > wrote
> >> >> > On Mar 7, 7:21 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >> > Are you sure she put udder in?
> >>
> >> >> >> > If so that explains it....
> >>
> >> >> >> ****. I spotted that as it was going "down the drain " after I
> >> >> >> hit send! You get the brass ring for the first predictable
> >> >> >> reply!
> >>
> >> >> > I have few talents, so give me this one.
> >>
> >> >> > I'm like a modern debugger!
> >>
> >> >> I could give you a full time job wiht my tpyos alone.
> >>
> >> > My coworkers and I were getting a good laugh about an ad
> >> > our employer had run looking for editors. *The number of
> >> > errors in the ad led to the common comment that we have
> >> > a very definite need for at least one.
> >>
> >> On th eplus side, my typing speed is phenomonal.
> >>
> >> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > Apologies if these have already been published.
> >
> > Here are some stills of the incident.
> >
> > http://www.stationstops.com/2008/03/03/breaking-video-amazing-footage-
> o
> > f-lufthansa-a320-wing-crashing-into-runway-in-hamburg/ "In addition to
> > an unattributed internet video of the entire landing (below),
> > photographer Lars Tretau captured stunning close-in photographs from a
> > different angle which can be found /here and here/."
> >
> > Follow the links "here and here".
> > This is even scarier than the video.
>
> Don;t see the links to the stills. I have seen one where the left wing
> touches. This was not quite as close to disaster as it looks , though.
> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.

How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in
. nz:

>> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>
> How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?


If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.

What's your point?

Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> Dave Doe > wrote in
> . nz:
>
> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
> >
> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
>
>
> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
>
> What's your point?

Proven.

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in
. nz:

> In article >,
> says...
>> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> . nz:
>>
>> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>> >
>> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
>>
>>
>> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
>>
>> What's your point?
>
> Proven.
>

Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.


Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> Dave Doe > wrote in
> . nz:
>
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
> >> . nz:
> >>
> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
> >> >
> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
> >>
> >>
> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
> >>
> >> What's your point?
> >
> > Proven.
> >
>
> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.

LOL

Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to today?

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241c16965a09dcd9898c0
@news.paradise.net.nz:

> In article >,
> says...
>> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> . nz:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> >> . nz:
>> >>
>> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>> >> >
>> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
>> >>
>> >> What's your point?
>> >
>> > Proven.
>> >
>>
>> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.
>
> LOL
>
> Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to today?
>

Depends

Which one would you like to talk to?

Some of us charge 4.95 a minute.


Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241c16965a09dcd9898c0
> @news.paradise.net.nz:
>
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
> >> . nz:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > says...
> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
> >> >> . nz:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
> >> >>
> >> >> What's your point?
> >> >
> >> > Proven.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.
> >
> > LOL
> >
> > Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to today?
> >
>
> Depends
>
> Which one would you like to talk to?
>
> Some of us charge 4.95 a minute.

Well I'm not sure which Bertie I'm talking to now, nor which one I'd
like to talk to - as you didn't tell me how many of you there are to
talk to! Nor did you answer my other question (which one I was talking
to).

Actually you've (whatever Bertie) didn't answer any of my questions at
all.

So tell yer what - you have the last say on the matter, I know you want
to - and as an added bonus, perhaps you could get all Berties to reply -
and invoice me for each!

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241df172b22cd349898c1
@news.paradise.net.nz:

> In article >,
> says...
>> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241c16965a09dcd9898c0
>> @news.paradise.net.nz:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> >> . nz:
>> >>
>> >> > In article >,

>> >> > says...
>> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> >> >> . nz:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What's your point?
>> >> >
>> >> > Proven.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.
>> >
>> > LOL
>> >
>> > Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to
today?
>> >
>>
>> Depends
>>
>> Which one would you like to talk to?
>>
>> Some of us charge 4.95 a minute.
>
> Well I'm not sure which Bertie I'm talking to now, nor which one I'd
> like to talk to - as you didn't tell me how many of you there are to
> talk to! Nor did you answer my other question (which one I was
talking
> to).
>
> Actually you've (whatever Bertie) didn't answer any of my questions at
> all.
>
> So tell yer what - you have the last say on the matter, I know you
want
> to - and as an added bonus, perhaps you could get all Berties to reply
-
> and invoice me for each!


OK, that will be thirty trillion, please.

We've answered on an infintie number of infinite universes but I'm
giving you a disoucnt.


And I did answer the question.


Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241df172b22cd349898c1
> @news.paradise.net.nz:
>
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241c16965a09dcd9898c0
> >> @news.paradise.net.nz:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > says...
> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
> >> >> . nz:
> >> >>
> >> >> > In article >,
>
> >> >> > says...
> >> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
> >> >> >> . nz:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What's your point?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Proven.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.
> >> >
> >> > LOL
> >> >
> >> > Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to
> today?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Depends
> >>
> >> Which one would you like to talk to?
> >>
> >> Some of us charge 4.95 a minute.
> >
> > Well I'm not sure which Bertie I'm talking to now, nor which one I'd
> > like to talk to - as you didn't tell me how many of you there are to
> > talk to! Nor did you answer my other question (which one I was
> talking
> > to).
> >
> > Actually you've (whatever Bertie) didn't answer any of my questions at
> > all.
> >
> > So tell yer what - you have the last say on the matter, I know you
> want
> > to - and as an added bonus, perhaps you could get all Berties to reply
> -
> > and invoice me for each!
>
>
> OK, that will be thirty trillion, please.

Sorry for the slow reply - I had to contact your government to secure
the full amount. They tell me that because you're an American citizen
that they are happy to pay themselves, they want you to contact them,
now.

> We've answered on an infintie number of infinite universes but I'm
> giving you a disoucnt.
>
>
> And I did answer the question.

Yes thank you Mxsmanic. How many times (that means give me a figure) do
you scrap the wings on the ground; per day, week - whatever - you say
it's common. How many times in the last year? - feel free to
approximate, but don't gimme the Mxsmanic chit - that's not you is it?

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in
. nz:

> In article >,
> says...
>> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241df172b22cd349898c1
>> @news.paradise.net.nz:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> >> Dave Doe > wrote in news:MPG.2241c16965a09dcd9898c0
>> >> @news.paradise.net.nz:
>> >>
>> >> > In article >,
>> >> > says...
>> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> >> >> . nz:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > In article >,
>>
>> >> >> > says...
>> >> >> >> Dave Doe > wrote in
>> >> >> >> . nz:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Wingtip scrapes are pretty common.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > How many times a day do you scrape the wing on the ground?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If I want to, as many as I can. If not, it doesn't happen.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What's your point?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Proven.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well done. Let us know when you figure out what it was.
>> >> >
>> >> > LOL
>> >> >
>> >> > Us? - how many of you are there? and which one am I talking to
>> today?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Depends
>> >>
>> >> Which one would you like to talk to?
>> >>
>> >> Some of us charge 4.95 a minute.
>> >
>> > Well I'm not sure which Bertie I'm talking to now, nor which one
>> > I'd like to talk to - as you didn't tell me how many of you there
>> > are to talk to! Nor did you answer my other question (which one I
>> > was
>> talking
>> > to).
>> >
>> > Actually you've (whatever Bertie) didn't answer any of my questions
>> > at all.
>> >
>> > So tell yer what - you have the last say on the matter, I know you
>> want
>> > to - and as an added bonus, perhaps you could get all Berties to
>> > reply
>> -
>> > and invoice me for each!
>>
>>
>> OK, that will be thirty trillion, please.
>
> Sorry for the slow reply - I had to contact your government to secure
> the full amount. They tell me that because you're an American citizen
> that they are happy to pay themselves, they want you to contact them,
> now.
>
>> We've answered on an infintie number of infinite universes but I'm
>> giving you a disoucnt.
>>
>>
>> And I did answer the question.
>
> Yes thank you Mxsmanic. How many times (that means give me a figure)
> do you scrap the wings on the ground; per day, week - whatever - you
> say it's common. How many times in the last year? - feel free to
> approximate, but don't gimme the Mxsmanic chit - that's not you is it?

I'm not giving you MXS chit, I can assure you with my hand over my heart
that I'm giving your question every inch of the respect it deserves.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"John Collins" > wrote in news:47d92272$0$12579
:

> What a bunch of babies, grow up, both of you! This is a total waste!
>

Yo mama.

Bertie

[Dave Doe]

<snip>

> >>
> >> And I did answer the question.
> >
> > Yes thank you Mxsmanic. How many times (that means give me a figure)
> > do you scrap the wings on the ground; per day, week - whatever - you
> > say it's common. How many times in the last year? - feel free to
> > approximate, but don't gimme the Mxsmanic chit - that's not you is it?
>
> I'm not giving you MXS chit, I can assure you with my hand over my heart
> that I'm giving your question every inch of the respect it deserves.

I'll take that as an admission from you that wing tip scrapes are infact
uncommon.

If you have any proof to the contrary - please provide it.

--
Duncan

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Dave Doe > wrote in
. nz:

> <snip>
>
>> >>
>> >> And I did answer the question.
>> >
>> > Yes thank you Mxsmanic. How many times (that means give me a
>> > figure) do you scrap the wings on the ground; per day, week -
>> > whatever - you say it's common. How many times in the last year? -
>> > feel free to approximate, but don't gimme the Mxsmanic chit -
>> > that's not you is it?
>>
>> I'm not giving you MXS chit, I can assure you with my hand over my
>> heart that I'm giving your question every inch of the respect it
>> deserves.
>
> I'll take that as an admission from you that wing tip scrapes are
> infact uncommon.


Of course you will.
>
> If you have any proof to the contrary - please provide it.
>

Or what, you'll call em another name?


Bertie