Lufthansa Crosswind Landing at Hamburg

[Phil J]

In case you haven't seen this yet. One post I read said that the wind
was 290 at 35 kts gusting to 55 kts. I'm not sure what the runway
heading was, but that's some pretty serious wind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY

[Vaughn Simon]

"Phil J" > wrote in message
...
> In case you haven't seen this yet.

Seen it? You can't watch CNN for over five minutes without having seen it
multiple times.

Vaughn

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article
>,
Phil J > wrote:

> In case you haven't seen this yet. One post I read said that the wind
> was 290 at 35 kts gusting to 55 kts. I'm not sure what the runway
> heading was, but that's some pretty serious wind.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY

As I understand it, they landed later on an intersecting runway, with a
more favorable wind direction.

My questions:

Where in hell was ATC's head when they directed the plane to a runway
with that severe a crosswind in the first place?

Also, why did the pilot accept that runway?

Is it the German acceptance of authority?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Phil J]

On Mar 3, 7:28*pm, Orval Fairbairn >
wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *Phil J > wrote:
>
> > In case you haven't seen this yet. *One post I read said that the wind
> > was 290 at 35 kts gusting to 55 kts. *I'm not sure what the runway
> > heading was, but that's some pretty serious wind.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY
>
> As I understand it, they landed later on an intersecting runway, with a
> more favorable wind direction.
>
> My questions:
>
> Where in hell was ATC's head when they directed the plane to a runway
> with that severe a crosswind in the first place?
>
> Also, why did the pilot accept that runway?
>

I read that they were attempting to land on runway 23. According to
one website I found they have runways 05/23 and 15/33. Seems like 33
would have been a better choice if the wind was from 290.

Phil

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Phil J wrote:
>
>I read that they were attempting to land on runway 23. According to
>one website I found they have runways 05/23 and 15/33. Seems like 33
>would have been a better choice if the wind was from 290.
>

That's correct. The failed attempt was on rwy 23 and the METAR showed
winds 290 @35G55. A 60 degee right crosswind. Their second (less eventful)
landing was on 33. A more manageable 40 degree left crosswind.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

[gatt[_2_]]

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:80aa3cae34e9a@uwe...
> Phil J wrote:
>>
>>I read that they were attempting to land on runway 23. According to
>>one website I found they have runways 05/23 and 15/33. Seems like 33
>>would have been a better choice if the wind was from 290.
>>
>
> That's correct. The failed attempt was on rwy 23 and the METAR showed
> winds 290 @35G55. A 60 degee right crosswind. Their second (less
> eventful)
> landing was on 33. A more manageable 40 degree left crosswind.

23 had the ILS, didn't it? The METAR also indicated clouds at 1100 and
1400, so I wonder if he just said "Screw it. I'm going visual" the second
time around.

Maybe the problem started because he didn't want to bust IFR. It looked
overcast, though, despite the METAR so he might have had to approach through
that as well.

-c

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"gatt" > wrote in
:

>
> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
> news:80aa3cae34e9a@uwe...
>> Phil J wrote:
>>>
>>>I read that they were attempting to land on runway 23. According to
>>>one website I found they have runways 05/23 and 15/33. Seems like 33
>>>would have been a better choice if the wind was from 290.
>>>
>>
>> That's correct. The failed attempt was on rwy 23 and the METAR
>> showed
>> winds 290 @35G55. A 60 degee right crosswind. Their second (less
>> eventful)
>> landing was on 33. A more manageable 40 degree left crosswind.
>
> 23 had the ILS, didn't it? The METAR also indicated clouds at 1100
> and 1400, so I wonder if he just said "Screw it. I'm going visual"
> the second time around.
>
> Maybe the problem started because he didn't want to bust IFR. It
> looked overcast, though, despite the METAR so he might have had to
> approach through that as well.


Well, he could have circled easily onto 33 from the first ILS with a
ceiling like that. Might be what he did the second time. But if the wind
was over limits on the surface, there's no way he would have continued for
23 in the first place. Ever been to Germany? Nobody jaywalks. It's eerie


Bertie

[Shirl]

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Well, he could have circled easily onto 33 from the first ILS with a
> ceiling like that. Might be what he did the second time. But if the wind
> was over limits on the surface, there's no way he would have continued for
> 23 in the first place. Ever been to Germany? Nobody jaywalks. It's eerie

"jaywalks" ... now there's a term I haven't heard in a number of years!
We were just talking about some older terminology that comes out of our
mouths that has our adult kids looking at us as if we're aliens.
;-)

[Thomas Borchert]

Phil,

> I'm not sure what the runway
> heading was,
>

23.

If there hadn't been video...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Orval,

> Where in hell was ATC's head when they directed the plane to a runway
> with that severe a crosswind in the first place?

The options are 23 and 33 (this is my home drome). With the wind between
280 and 290, you figure out the difference in crosswind component. It's
not that much. But 23 has a CAT IIIb (I think) ILS, while 33 is
localizer only.

> Also, why did the pilot accept that runway?

See above.

> Is it the German acceptance of authority?

No.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Bertie,

> Ever been to Germany? Nobody jaywalks. It's eerie
>

BS. Plain and simple. You got a Germany simulator from MX?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 5 Mar, 17:36, Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Bertie,
>
> > Ever been to Germany? Nobody jaywalks. It's eerie
>
> BS. Plain and simple. You got a Germany simulator from MX?

Nope, but I'll be there in a few hours and take a video of it if you
like.




Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 5 Mar, 12:28, Shirl > wrote:
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > Well, he could have circled easily onto 33 from the first ILS with a
> > ceiling like that. Might be what he did the second time. But if the wind
> > was over limits on the surface, there's no way he would have continued for
> > 23 in the first place. Ever been to Germany? Nobody jaywalks. It's eerie
>
> "jaywalks" ... now there's a term I haven't heard in a number of years! *
> We were just talking about some older terminology that comes out of our
> mouths that has our adult kids looking at us as if we're aliens.
> ;-)

Really? They'll slam you up for it in Germany. and u-turns ( Don't ask
me how i know this, It'd take me a week to tel it)

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 5 Mar, 17:36, Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Orval,
>
> > Where in hell was ATC's head when they directed the plane to a runway
> > with that severe a crosswind in the first place?
>
> The options are 23 and 33 (this is my home drome). With the wind between
> 280 and 290, you figure out the difference in crosswind component. It's
> not that much. But 23 has a CAT IIIb (I think) ILS, while 33 is
> localizer only.
>
> > Also, why did the pilot accept that runway?
>
> See above.
>
> > Is it the German acceptance of authority?
>
> No.
>

Probably just the lack of a sense of humor.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 5 Mar, 17:36, Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Phil,
>
> > I'm not sure what the runway
> > heading was,
>
> 23.
>
> If there hadn't been video...
>

It wouldn't have happened?



Bertie

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article >,
Bertie the > wrote:
> Really? They'll slam you up for it in Germany. and u-turns ( Don't ask
> me how i know this, It'd take me a week to tel it)

How do you know that? :)

Andy

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Andy Hawkins > wrote in
:

> Hi,
>
> In article
> >,
> Bertie the > wrote:
>> Really? They'll slam you up for it in Germany. and u-turns ( Don't
>> ask me how i know this, It'd take me a week to tel it)
>
> How do you know that? :)


Chapter one. "Bertie arrives in Germany for the first time ever.. ...."

And sidles up onto a stool in a two tap, ten stool bar in the train
station. It's a beautiful sunny early summer's day and it's the first
oportunity he has to try a real German beer from a real German tap in
Germany. I can't remember what type beer it was but it was just
beeeeuuutiful. I drank it at leisure and asked the barkeep for another
( auf Deutch) "NEIN" came the reply. Well, I'm a bit taken back I have
to tel you. It's about three in the afternoon, I wasn't drunk and there
were several other patrons sitting leisurely drinking their beer. A bit
confused., I asked again in my best school german for another. THe
crewcutted bartender, as close a double for Gert Frobe ( goldfinger) as
you're going to find shouts back again, "NEIN". he's obviously getting a
bit perturbed, so i try a third time. He's getting purple now and still
refusing to give me "Ein anderes beir" . Well this went on for a few
more minutes and eventually I discover I'm asking for another
~different~ beer and they only have one brand on draft.... You think he
could have figured it out....


Stay tuned for the next chapter, "Bertie is nearly put on a chain gang
in Wurms"..


Bertie

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article >,
Bertie the > wrote:
> Stay tuned for the next chapter, "Bertie is nearly put on a chain gang
> in Wurms"..

Waiting with baited breath :)

Andy

[Tina]

A very minor point, Andy. I hope you mean your breath is bated -- I
don't know what the consequences might be if it's intended to be bait
for Bertie.

if it's bait for On Mar 7, 8:33*am, Andy Hawkins >
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In article >,
> * * * * * *Bertie the > wrote:
>
> > Stay tuned for the next chapter, "Bertie is nearly put on a chain gang
> > in Wurms"..
>
> Waiting with baited breath :)
>
> Andy

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Andy Hawkins > wrote in
:

> Hi,
>
> In article >,
> Bertie the > wrote:
>> Stay tuned for the next chapter, "Bertie is nearly put on a chain gang
>> in Wurms"..
>
> Waiting with baited breath :)
>
> Andy
>

I'm taking some literary licence here with the timeline, of course.

Bertie

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article >,
> wrote:
> A very minor point, Andy. I hope you mean your breath is bated -- I
> don't know what the consequences might be if it's intended to be bait
> for Bertie.

Right you are Tina. I never knew that!

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm

My personal pet hate is 'Here, here!'

To which my usual response is 'Where? Where?'

:)

Andy

[Blueskies]

"Andy Hawkins" > wrote in message ...
> Hi,
>
> In article >,
> > wrote:
>> A very minor point, Andy. I hope you mean your breath is bated -- I
>> don't know what the consequences might be if it's intended to be bait
>> for Bertie.
>
> Right you are Tina. I never knew that!
>
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm
>
> My personal pet hate is 'Here, here!'
>
> To which my usual response is 'Where? Where?'
>
> :)
>
> Andy


Here we are, here.

[Kai Rode]

>I asked again in my best school german for another. THe
>crewcutted bartender, as close a double for Gert Frobe ( goldfinger) as
>you're going to find shouts back again, "NEIN". he's obviously getting a
>bit perturbed, so i try a third time. He's getting purple now and still
>refusing to give me "Ein anderes beir" . Well this went on for a few
>more minutes and eventually I discover I'm asking for another
>~different~ beer and they only have one brand on draft.

Ah, the difference between another beer and an other beer...you should have
asked for "Noch ein Bier" instead.

Some German pubs can be very interesting places. For example in some pubs in
Dusseldorf, you can expect the (joking) reply "Water's in the Rhine, we
serve beer here" when you ask for water instead of beer...and don't even
dream of asking for the wrong type of beer, i.e. Altbier in Cologne or
Kölsch in Düsseldorf. Oh and in Bavaria "a small beer" is usually half a
liter and not available in some beer gardens at all, just full liters.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Kai Rode > wrote in
:

>>I asked again in my best school german for another. THe
>>crewcutted bartender, as close a double for Gert Frobe ( goldfinger)
>>as you're going to find shouts back again, "NEIN". he's obviously
>>getting a bit perturbed, so i try a third time. He's getting purple
>>now and still refusing to give me "Ein anderes beir" . Well this went
>>on for a few more minutes and eventually I discover I'm asking for
>>another ~different~ beer and they only have one brand on draft.
>
> Ah, the difference between another beer and an other beer...you should
> have asked for "Noch ein Bier" instead.

Yep. Learned that on the day.
>
> Some German pubs can be very interesting places. For example in some
> pubs in Dusseldorf, you can expect the (joking) reply "Water's in the
> Rhine, we serve beer here" when you ask for water instead of
> beer...and don't even dream of asking for the wrong type of beer, i.e.
> Altbier in Cologne or Kölsch in Düsseldorf. Oh and in Bavaria "a small
> beer" is usually half a liter and not available in some beer gardens
> at all, just full liters.

Well, these days they're not so fussy as that guy in Cologne and in most
places they have fairly decent english, so if mein Deutsch lets me down we
can resort to that.



Bertie