Ammending logbooks

[Edward A. Falk]

OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
not a single mistake in the total flight time column.

How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
examiner who's good at math.

Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
correct for errors in previous pages."?

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Bob F.]

"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
> OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
> misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
> as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>
> How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
> examiner who's good at math.
>
> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
> correct for errors in previous pages."?
>
> --
> -Ed Falk,
> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/


You can do anything you want. Just do it clearly and don't make it look
like you are covering anything up. I know that's not your intention. Also,
I'd initial all changes and make a note in the back of the log what you did.
That said, there is NO requirement anywhere in the regulations that say you
have to keep a total, running or otherwise, in your logbook. So, I don't
even add them up anymore. Let the spreadsheet do the work. You only need
to make a tally when asked such as with an 8710 application, insurance form,
etc. And it does not have to stay in your log. BTW, you can put anything
you want to in you logbook, backseat time, conversation time, all kinds of
experience you want to keep track of. The question is "what rows do you add
up to answer the questions on forms or by the examiner?". If you want to
keep track of other experience, that's your business. It's your log. Just
don't try to count it towards anything. (the extraneous stuff, that is).

--
BobF.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 3:46*pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
> OK, new question: *I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
> misreading my own handwriting. *In some columns, the error is as much
> as 10 hours. *Most of the errors are in my favor. *Interestingly, there's
> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>
> How can I correct my logbook? *One way might be to simply put the
> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
> examiner who's good at math.
>
> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
> correct for errors in previous pages."?
>
> --
> * * * * -Ed Falk,
> * * * *http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

If you end up with an examiner who adds up all the columns in 23 years
worth of log books my suggestion is to find another examiner who is
sane, rational and lives in the real world...

With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
best way to address this issue.. YMMV.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 5:46*pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
> OK, new question: *I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
> misreading my own handwriting. *In some columns, the error is as much
> as 10 hours. *Most of the errors are in my favor. *Interestingly, there's
> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>
> How can I correct my logbook?

If you scan any signatures you're relying on (checkrides,
endorsements, latest BFR) and include them in your spreadsheet with
all the other info from the book, you can regard the spreadsheet as
your new logbook and consign the parchment version to a museum. :)

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 5, 6:13 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:
> "Edward A. Falk" > wrote in ...
>
>
>
> > OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
> > program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
> > misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
> > as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
> > not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>
> > How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
> > corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
> > I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
> > examiner who's good at math.
>
> > Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
> > correct for errors in previous pages."?
>
> > --
> > -Ed Falk,
> >http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
>
> You can do anything you want. Just do it clearly and don't make it look
> like you are covering anything up. I know that's not your intention. Also,
> I'd initial all changes and make a note in the back of the log what you did.
> That said, there is NO requirement anywhere in the regulations that say you
> have to keep a total, running or otherwise, in your logbook. So, I don't
> even add them up anymore. Let the spreadsheet do the work. You only need
> to make a tally when asked such as with an 8710 application, insurance form,
> etc. And it does not have to stay in your log. BTW, you can put anything
> you want to in you logbook, backseat time, conversation time, all kinds of
> experience you want to keep track of. The question is "what rows do you add
> up to answer the questions on forms or by the examiner?". If you want to
> keep track of other experience, that's your business. It's your log. Just
> don't try to count it towards anything. (the extraneous stuff, that is).
>
> --
> BobF.

Excellent advice.

The only hours that must be logged are those required for a rating or
proficiency, or dual given as a CFI.


Dan

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:13:31 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:

>On Mar 5, 3:46*pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
>> OK, new question: *I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
>> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
>> misreading my own handwriting. *In some columns, the error is as much
>> as 10 hours. *Most of the errors are in my favor. *Interestingly, there's
>> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>>
>> How can I correct my logbook? *One way might be to simply put the
>> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
>> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
>> examiner who's good at math.
>>
>> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
>> correct for errors in previous pages."?
>>
>> --
>> * * * * -Ed Falk,
>> * * * *http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
>
>If you end up with an examiner who adds up all the columns in 23 years
>worth of log books my suggestion is to find another examiner who is
>sane, rational and lives in the real world...
>
>With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
>best way to address this issue.. YMMV.

Don't they basically do that if you apply for an ATP?

[Bob F.]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 5, 6:13 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:
>> "Edward A. Falk" > wrote in
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a
>> > spreadsheet
>> > program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
>> > misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
>> > as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly,
>> > there's
>> > not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>>
>> > How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
>> > corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
>> > I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
>> > examiner who's good at math.
>>
>> > Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
>> > correct for errors in previous pages."?
>>
>> > --
>> > -Ed Falk,
>> >http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
>>
>> You can do anything you want. Just do it clearly and don't make it look
>> like you are covering anything up. I know that's not your intention.
>> Also,
>> I'd initial all changes and make a note in the back of the log what you
>> did.
>> That said, there is NO requirement anywhere in the regulations that say
>> you
>> have to keep a total, running or otherwise, in your logbook. So, I don't
>> even add them up anymore. Let the spreadsheet do the work. You only
>> need
>> to make a tally when asked such as with an 8710 application, insurance
>> form,
>> etc. And it does not have to stay in your log. BTW, you can put
>> anything
>> you want to in you logbook, backseat time, conversation time, all kinds
>> of
>> experience you want to keep track of. The question is "what rows do you
>> add
>> up to answer the questions on forms or by the examiner?". If you want to
>> keep track of other experience, that's your business. It's your log.
>> Just
>> don't try to count it towards anything. (the extraneous stuff, that is).
>>
>> --
>> BobF.
>
> Excellent advice.
>
> The only hours that must be logged are those required for a rating or
> proficiency, or dual given as a CFI.
>
> Dan


Absolutely right. I noticed you said logged, not tallied. It's interesting
about the CFI logging and often brought up at CFI refresher clinics. Do you
realize and the Instructor has no choice when he gives instruction to sign
your log? There's no vote! It is improper to ask "do you want me to sign
your log book", He must. One the other hand, there is no requirement for a
student to even have a log book (In many situations). There is also no
requirement to have a log book with you, so what's an instructor to do.
Well, when I run into the situation, I grab a scrap of paper, make the
notations and say "here, this is now part of your logbook". The only out
is, there is no TIME required to make the entry after instruction... today,
tomorrow and year from now... Anyhow, a small discontinuity in the regs.

--
BobF.

[Bob F.]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:13:31 -0800 (PST), "
> > wrote:
>
>>On Mar 5, 3:46 pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
>>> OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
>>> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
>>> misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
>>> as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
>>> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>>>
>>> How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
>>> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
>>> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
>>> examiner who's good at math.
>>>
>>> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
>>> correct for errors in previous pages."?
>>>
>>> --
>>> -Ed Falk,
>>> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
>>
>>If you end up with an examiner who adds up all the columns in 23 years
>>worth of log books my suggestion is to find another examiner who is
>>sane, rational and lives in the real world...
>>
>>With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
>>best way to address this issue.. YMMV.
>
> Don't they basically do that if you apply for an ATP?


Mine just asked me "Is all the required time there?" I said "yes", and that
was the end of that. And believe me, I spent a lot of time going over my
log making sure everything was correct. For an ATP, your log is checked at
the time of the written. I believe it's still that way.

--
BobF.

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 5, 6:55 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:

> > The only hours that must be logged are those required for a rating or
> > proficiency, or dual given as a CFI.
>
> > Dan
>
> Absolutely right. I noticed you said logged, not tallied. It's interesting
> about the CFI logging and often brought up at CFI refresher clinics. Do you
> realize and the Instructor has no choice when he gives instruction to sign
> your log? There's no vote! It is improper to ask "do you want me to sign
> your log book", He must. One the other hand, there is no requirement for a
> student to even have a log book (In many situations). There is also no
> requirement to have a log book with you, so what's an instructor to do.
> Well, when I run into the situation, I grab a scrap of paper, make the
> notations and say "here, this is now part of your logbook". The only out
> is, there is no TIME required to make the entry after instruction... today,
> tomorrow and year from now... Anyhow, a small discontinuity in the regs.
>
> --
> BobF.

Hmmm..

I thought the only *required CFI log* is the CFI's own log of dual
given (to be kept 3 years).

In the case of the student with no log book -- the CFI cannot
comply...?


Dan

[Bob F.]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 5, 6:55 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:
>
>> > The only hours that must be logged are those required for a rating or
>> > proficiency, or dual given as a CFI.
>>
>> > Dan
>>
>> Absolutely right. I noticed you said logged, not tallied. It's
>> interesting
>> about the CFI logging and often brought up at CFI refresher clinics. Do
>> you
>> realize and the Instructor has no choice when he gives instruction to
>> sign
>> your log? There's no vote! It is improper to ask "do you want me to
>> sign
>> your log book", He must. One the other hand, there is no requirement
>> for a
>> student to even have a log book (In many situations). There is also no
>> requirement to have a log book with you, so what's an instructor to do.
>> Well, when I run into the situation, I grab a scrap of paper, make the
>> notations and say "here, this is now part of your logbook". The only out
>> is, there is no TIME required to make the entry after instruction...
>> today,
>> tomorrow and year from now... Anyhow, a small discontinuity in the regs.
>>
>> --
>> BobF.
>
> Hmmm..
>
> I thought the only *required CFI log* is the CFI's own log of dual
> given (to be kept 3 years).


Sec. 61.189 - Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that
instructor has given flight training or ground training.

and while we are at it:

(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge
test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test,
the date, and the results.

This one means that when I recommend a candidate for a written test, I need
to track him down, get the results and record it. This one is often
overlook and I'll bet 90 % of the CFI's miss this. The "out" here is,
always do the sign off with your Ground Instrutor Certificate number, which
I always do. Guess what... no records required.

>
> In the case of the student with no log book -- the CFI cannot
> comply...?
>
That's the point I tried to make.

>
> Dan
>
>
>



--
BobF.

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:58:57 -0500, "Bob F." >
wrote:

>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:13:31 -0800 (PST), "
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 5, 3:46 pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
>>>> OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
>>>> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
>>>> misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
>>>> as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
>>>> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>>>>
>>>> How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
>>>> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
>>>> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
>>>> examiner who's good at math.
>>>>
>>>> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
>>>> correct for errors in previous pages."?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -Ed Falk,
>>>> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>If you end up with an examiner who adds up all the columns in 23 years
>>>worth of log books my suggestion is to find another examiner who is
>>>sane, rational and lives in the real world...
>>>
>>>With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
>>>best way to address this issue.. YMMV.
>>
>> Don't they basically do that if you apply for an ATP?
>
>
>Mine just asked me "Is all the required time there?" I said "yes", and that
>was the end of that. And believe me, I spent a lot of time going over my
>log making sure everything was correct. For an ATP, your log is checked at
>the time of the written. I believe it's still that way.

OK, thanks. I guess it's another thing that varies from examiner to
examiner, you hear horror stories of people getting out calculators
and going through years of books line by line.....

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 5, 7:08 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 6:55 pm, "Bob F." > wrote:
>
> >> > The only hours that must be logged are those required for a rating or
> >> > proficiency, or dual given as a CFI.
>
> >> > Dan
>
> >> Absolutely right. I noticed you said logged, not tallied. It's
> >> interesting
> >> about the CFI logging and often brought up at CFI refresher clinics. Do
> >> you
> >> realize and the Instructor has no choice when he gives instruction to
> >> sign
> >> your log? There's no vote! It is improper to ask "do you want me to
> >> sign
> >> your log book", He must. One the other hand, there is no requirement
> >> for a
> >> student to even have a log book (In many situations). There is also no
> >> requirement to have a log book with you, so what's an instructor to do.
> >> Well, when I run into the situation, I grab a scrap of paper, make the
> >> notations and say "here, this is now part of your logbook". The only out
> >> is, there is no TIME required to make the entry after instruction...
> >> today,
> >> tomorrow and year from now... Anyhow, a small discontinuity in the regs.
>
> >> --
> >> BobF.
>
> > Hmmm..
>
> > I thought the only *required CFI log* is the CFI's own log of dual
> > given (to be kept 3 years).
>
> Sec. 61.189 - Flight instructor records.
> (a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that
> instructor has given flight training or ground training.
>
> and while we are at it:
>
> (2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge
> test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test,
> the date, and the results.
>
> This one means that when I recommend a candidate for a written test, I need
> to track him down, get the results and record it. This one is often
> overlook and I'll bet 90 % of the CFI's miss this. The "out" here is,
> always do the sign off with your Ground Instrutor Certificate number, which
> I always do. Guess what... no records required.
>
>
>
> > In the case of the student with no log book -- the CFI cannot
> > comply...?
>
> That's the point I tried to make.
>
>
>
> > Dan
>
> --
> BobF.

DOH!!

You are correct, Sir!

Has there been any legal decision clarifying the "when" the logbook
must be signed?

There must be some case that established that by now...

Dan

[Bob F.]

>> > I thought the only *required CFI log* is the CFI's own log of dual
>> > given (to be kept 3 years).
>>
>> Sec. 61.189 - Flight instructor records.
>> (a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that
>> instructor has given flight training or ground training.
>>
>> and while we are at it:
>>
>> (2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge
>> test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of
>> test,
>> the date, and the results.
>>
>> This one means that when I recommend a candidate for a written test, I
>> need
>> to track him down, get the results and record it. This one is often
>> overlook and I'll bet 90 % of the CFI's miss this. The "out" here is,
>> always do the sign off with your Ground Instrutor Certificate number,
>> which
>> I always do. Guess what... no records required.
>>
>> > In the case of the student with no log book -- the CFI cannot
>> > comply...?
>>
>> That's the point I tried to make.
>>
>> > Dan
>> --
>> BobF.
>
> DOH!!
>
> You are correct, Sir!
>
> Has there been any legal decision clarifying the "when" the logbook
> must be signed?
>
> There must be some case that established that by now...
>
> Dan


None that I know of. I guess it's never been point for litigation.

--
BobF.

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

(Edward A. Falk) writes:
> OK, new question: I put my logbooks (25 years worth) into a spreadsheet
> program, and turned up a few errors in the process; mostly due to
> misreading my own handwriting. In some columns, the error is as much
> as 10 hours. Most of the errors are in my favor. Interestingly, there's
> not a single mistake in the total flight time column.
>
> How can I correct my logbook? One way might be to simply put the
> corrected values at the bottom of the page next time I total up, but
> I worry about having to explain the discontinuity to the next
> examiner who's good at math.
>
> Or should I put an entry into the logbook that says "these values
> correct for errors in previous pages."?

What I do:

a) at the point of error, add in a note saying "error, corrected later".

b) add in a new line to my logbook with a compensating log line to
correct the error, referencing the date of the line in error.

Chris

[Edward A. Falk]

In article >,
Bob F. > wrote:
>>>
>>>With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
>>>best way to address this issue.. YMMV.

I'll probably go that way.

>Mine just asked me "Is all the required time there?" I said "yes", and that
>was the end of that. And believe me, I spent a lot of time going over my
>log making sure everything was correct. ...

Not an issue for me. Last time I was asked about hours, the question was
did I have X cross-country hours. My answer was that I had that many at
night.

Thanks to everybody for their insights.

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Bob F.]

Interesting...and remember ATP cross country time does not have to have a
landing between, and distance is not an issue. It can be take off, track a
route (VOR, roadway, terrain feature, etc) maybe return) and land. The
examiner MAY want to see the route logged however. So you guys just
starting out, keep track of all your short hops to the next airport. All
those 8 mile trips count towards ATP XC. And if you took a 25 mile detour
to get there, it counts also, just document it.

--
BobF.
"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bob F. > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>With that said your last idea to "correct for errors" is probably the
>>>>best way to address this issue.. YMMV.
>
> I'll probably go that way.
>
>>Mine just asked me "Is all the required time there?" I said "yes", and
>>that
>>was the end of that. And believe me, I spent a lot of time going over my
>>log making sure everything was correct. ...
>
> Not an issue for me. Last time I was asked about hours, the question was
> did I have X cross-country hours. My answer was that I had that many at
> night.
>
> Thanks to everybody for their insights.
>
> --
> -Ed Falk,
> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Mark T. Dame]

Bob F. wrote:
> Interesting...and remember ATP cross country time does not have to have
> a landing between, and distance is not an issue. It can be take off,
> track a route (VOR, roadway, terrain feature, etc) maybe return) and
> land. The examiner MAY want to see the route logged however. So you
> guys just starting out, keep track of all your short hops to the next
> airport. All those 8 mile trips count towards ATP XC. And if you took
> a 25 mile detour to get there, it counts also, just document it.

This something I've been questioning ever since I got my Commercial
certificate. From what I understand, you can only count it as XC for
ATP if the trip was over 50 miles from your departure point. No, you
don't have have to land anywhere, but it still needs to be 50 miles.

I remember hearing (back when I was a student pilot) that once you got
your commercial, every flight where you landed somewhere other than
where you started counted as cross country, but I've never been able to
confirm this, so I doubt it's accuracy. It is, however, essentially
what you are claiming here.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL-IA, CFI-A, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"A common occurrence during compile time is a syntax error."
-- C: The Complete Reference, Herbert Schildt

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in :

> Bob F. wrote:
>> Interesting...and remember ATP cross country time does not have to have
>> a landing between, and distance is not an issue. It can be take off,
>> track a route (VOR, roadway, terrain feature, etc) maybe return) and
>> land. The examiner MAY want to see the route logged however. So you
>> guys just starting out, keep track of all your short hops to the next
>> airport. All those 8 mile trips count towards ATP XC. And if you took
>> a 25 mile detour to get there, it counts also, just document it.
>
> This something I've been questioning ever since I got my Commercial
> certificate. From what I understand, you can only count it as XC for
> ATP if the trip was over 50 miles from your departure point. No, you
> don't have have to land anywhere, but it still needs to be 50 miles.
>
> I remember hearing (back when I was a student pilot) that once you got
> your commercial, every flight where you landed somewhere other than
> where you started counted as cross country, but I've never been able to
> confirm this, so I doubt it's accuracy. It is, however, essentially
> what you are claiming here.

I'm pretty sure that's correct, actually.


Bertie

[Edward A. Falk]

In article >, Mark T. Dame > wrote:
>I remember hearing (back when I was a student pilot) that once you got
>your commercial, every flight where you landed somewhere other than
>where you started counted as cross country, but I've never been able to
>confirm this, so I doubt it's accuracy. It is, however, essentially
>what you are claiming here.

I think every flight where you land somewhere else is a cross-country
flight, no matter what kind of license you have. Certain currency
requirements only count flights of 50 nm or greater.

My logbook is a mess in this respect. There are some very short flights
logged as cross-country, and many long flights (49 nm) which are not.

Different instructors do it different ways, and I tend to keep doing
whatever the last instructor did.

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Bob F.]

Cross country distance definitions are different for different ratings.
There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or whatever for
cross country otherwise. The ATP has NO definition for it. It just says
500 hours total "cross country". It is left up to the examiner to determine
what that is. As far as your log book goes, as I said earlier, what you
need to do is record the activity and the time. But when it comes time to
add the time up for a rating, make sure you pick up the right lines.
Logbooks are not really set up for this dynamic. This is where spreadsheets
and database software helps. So I stopped adding up the rows. I keep a
paper log, where signatures and endorsements are recorded, and transfer the
time to a spreadsheet log. This was particularly useful when I bought my
first couple airplanes and the insurance asked for time in different ways,
such as time in type, 4 place time, retract time, time in blue airplanes,
time in red airplanes, ...oops got carried away there.

But back to the subject , for the ATP I never found and examiner where he
cared about distance but is you don't show the route and/or how you
navigated it, he will not allow it to be counted. If you recorded you
traveled 100 mi to and airport and recorded that, he'll assume you navigated
there somehow. But if it's a "local flight", i.e., took off, flew 70 miles
along a shore line and returned without a landing during that flight, you'd
better record it as such if you want it counted. This comes into play for
people who fly pipelines or traffic patrol who never go very far but follow
a specified route.
--
BobF.
"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Mark T. Dame > wrote:
>>I remember hearing (back when I was a student pilot) that once you got
>>your commercial, every flight where you landed somewhere other than
>>where you started counted as cross country, but I've never been able to
>>confirm this, so I doubt it's accuracy. It is, however, essentially
>>what you are claiming here.
>
> I think every flight where you land somewhere else is a cross-country
> flight, no matter what kind of license you have. Certain currency
> requirements only count flights of 50 nm or greater.
>
> My logbook is a mess in this respect. There are some very short flights
> logged as cross-country, and many long flights (49 nm) which are not.
>
> Different instructors do it different ways, and I tend to keep doing
> whatever the last instructor did.
>
> --
> -Ed Falk,
> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[[email protected]]

On Mar 13, 11:25*am, "Bob F." > wrote:
> Cross country distance definitions are different for different ratings.

True.

> There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or whatever for
> cross country otherwise.

There's a general definition given by 61.13bi: "Cross-country time
means--Except as provided [below for specific ratings], time acquired
during flight: conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
conducted in an aircraft; that includes a landing at a point other
than the point of departure; and that involves the use of dead
reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other
navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."

>*The ATP has NO definition for it. *

Sure it has. It's given by 61.13b3vi: "Cross-country time means--For
the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an
airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category
rating), time acquired during a flight: conducted in an appropriate
aircraft; that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
nautical miles from the original point of departure; and that involves
the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio
aids, or other navigation systems."

[Bob F.]

I see no reference to those numbers. Can you state the publish date of this
reference.

--
BobF.
> wrote in message
...
On Mar 13, 11:25 am, "Bob F." > wrote:
> Cross country distance definitions are different for different ratings.

True.

> There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or whatever
> for
> cross country otherwise.

There's a general definition given by 61.13bi: "Cross-country time
means--Except as provided [below for specific ratings], time acquired
during flight: conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
conducted in an aircraft; that includes a landing at a point other
than the point of departure; and that involves the use of dead
reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other
navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."

> The ATP has NO definition for it.

Sure it has. It's given by 61.13b3vi: "Cross-country time means--For
the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an
airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category
rating), time acquired during a flight: conducted in an appropriate
aircraft; that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
nautical miles from the original point of departure; and that involves
the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio
aids, or other navigation systems."

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 9:57*am, "Bob F." > wrote:
> I see no reference to those numbers. *Can you state the publish date of this
> reference.

Oops, sorry, typo. That should have been 61.1b3, not 61.13b.

(I always use the government's online version to be sure I'm up-to-
date. Just google e-CFR.)



> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 13, 11:25 am, "Bob F." > wrote:
>
> > Cross country distance definitions are different for different ratings.
>
> True.
>
> > There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or whatever
> > for
> > cross country otherwise.
>
> There's a general definition given by 61.13bi: "Cross-country time
> means--Except as provided [below for specific ratings], time acquired
> during flight: conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
> conducted in an aircraft; that includes a landing at a point other
> than the point of departure; and that involves the use of dead
> reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other
> navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."
>
> > The ATP has NO definition for it.
>
> Sure it has. It's given by 61.13b3vi: "Cross-country time means--For
> the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an
> airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category
> rating), time acquired during a flight: conducted in an appropriate
> aircraft; that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
> nautical miles from the original point of departure; and that involves
> the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio
> aids, or other navigation systems."

[Bob F.]

Looks like it's there all right. There were significant changes in that
area of the regs in 2004 and I didn't notice them. That what happens when
you go inactive for a long period. But I don't see any changes in that
exact area so I don't know how long it's been there...looks like for a
while..So the bottom line is you guys have to observe the 50 nm rule for
your ATP.

--
BobF.
> wrote in message
...
On Mar 16, 9:57 am, "Bob F." > wrote:
> I see no reference to those numbers. Can you state the publish date of
> this
> reference.

Oops, sorry, typo. That should have been 61.1b3, not 61.13b.

(I always use the government's online version to be sure I'm up-to-
date. Just google e-CFR.)



> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 13, 11:25 am, "Bob F." > wrote:
>
> > Cross country distance definitions are different for different ratings.
>
> True.
>
> > There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or whatever
> > for
> > cross country otherwise.
>
> There's a general definition given by 61.13bi: "Cross-country time
> means--Except as provided [below for specific ratings], time acquired
> during flight: conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
> conducted in an aircraft; that includes a landing at a point other
> than the point of departure; and that involves the use of dead
> reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other
> navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."
>
> > The ATP has NO definition for it.
>
> Sure it has. It's given by 61.13b3vi: "Cross-country time means--For
> the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an
> airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category
> rating), time acquired during a flight: conducted in an appropriate
> aircraft; that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
> nautical miles from the original point of departure; and that involves
> the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio
> aids, or other navigation systems."

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in
:

> On Mar 13, 11:25*am, "Bob F." > wrote:
>> Cross country distance definitions are different for different
>> ratings.
>
> True.
>
>> There is no general definition in time, direction, endurance or
>> whatever f
> or
>> cross country otherwise.
>
> There's a general definition given by 61.13bi: "Cross-country time
> means--Except as provided [below for specific ratings], time acquired
> during flight: conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
> conducted in an aircraft; that includes a landing at a point other
> than the point of departure; and that involves the use of dead
> reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other
> navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."
>
>>*The ATP has NO definition for it. *
>
> Sure it has. It's given by 61.13b3vi: "Cross-country time means--For
> the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an
> airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category
> rating), time acquired during a flight: conducted in an appropriate
> aircraft; that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
> nautical miles from the original point of departure; and that involves
> the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio
> aids, or other navigation systems."

I think that may be a relatively recent rule which may account for the
confusion. I seem to recall that most licences and ratings called for a
specific distance to be flown excepting the ATP. Maybe it was just the
135 requirement though. Can't remember and am beyond caring at this
juncture, though.


Bertie