Water in the fuel

[Ron Garret]

It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)

rg

[terry]

On Mar 15, 6:56*pm, Ron Garret > wrote:
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it..)
>
Sounds unusual to me. But I live in a more humid place . The most
likely time to find the odd drop is first flight of the day.
after air in the tanks has cooled down below dew point. Keeping tanks
filled overnight will help, but having dry air and warm climate will
reduce the likliehood.
terry.

[Tina]

The early Mooney 201's had a fuel cap that was difficult to secure
correctly. In those days my husband found, when he came to the airport
to fly home after a business meeting, if it had been raining
sometimes he'd find water in the fuel. Those were the days when the
FBO would fill the visiter's airplane.

Draining the water from the tanks when it was raining while still
dressed in a suit did not make his day. Of course draining the water
through the fuel drain was better than having the engine try to burn
it.




> On Mar 15, 6:56*pm, Ron Garret > wrote:> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> > once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
> > Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> > seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> Sounds unusual to me. But I live in a more humid place . *The most
> likely time to find the odd drop is first flight of the day.
> after air in the tanks has cooled down below dew point. *Keeping tanks
> filled overnight will help, *but having dry air and warm climate will
> reduce the likliehod.
> terry.

[dVaridel]

"terry" wrote On Mar 15, 6:56 pm, Ron Garret > wrote:
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
Sounds unusual to me. But I live in a more humid place . The most
likely time to find the odd drop is first flight of the day.
after air in the tanks has cooled down below dew point. Keeping tanks
filled overnight will help, but having dry air and warm climate will
reduce the likliehood.
terry.

Most likely in Qld, NT and the top end of WA. Not so likely in Vic, SA and
south WA. Possible in NSW.

:-)

YMMV

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Ron Garret > wrote:

> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)

In 600+ plus hours I haven't found any either (northeast).

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:43:54 -0700 (PDT), terry
> wrote:

>On Mar 15, 6:56*pm, Ron Garret > wrote:
>> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
>> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
>> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>>
>Sounds unusual to me. But I live in a more humid place .

I live in a humid and damp place (New England, USA), and I've seen it
exactly once, attributed to am incorrectly installed cap and hard
rain. The other tank was fine.

In fact, so much water got in the tank, it took two GATTS jars to see
fuel! Imagine the surprise of draining a full jar of colorless
liquid. The second jar produced ~ 1" of fuel at the top. If I were
using one of those little test tube testers, I probably would have
pulled 4-5 fills before I got to fuel.

[terry]

On Mar 15, 10:02*pm, "dVaridel" > wrote:
> "terry" *wrote On Mar 15, 6:56 pm, Ron Garret > wrote:> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> > once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> > Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> > seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> Sounds unusual to me. But I live in a more humid place . *The most
> likely time to find the odd drop is first flight of the day.
> after air in the tanks has cooled down below dew point. *Keeping tanks
> filled overnight will help, *but having dry air and warm climate will
> reduce the likliehood.
> terry.
>
> Most likely in Qld, NT and the top end of WA. *Not so likely in Vic, SA and
> south WA. *Possible in NSW.
>
yeh I am in Vic. I have seen it a few times, but only like 1 or 2
small drops. I have never really thought about it much but I have
just done a few calcs to see how much water would actually be in the
air.
At 30 deg C and 70%RH say in a 172 with half full tanks, you have
100 liters of air with a dew point of 24 deg C containing 2 g of
water. If that air cooled down to 10 deg C, approximated 1 g of
water would condense.
BUT, from memory I think that the solubility of water in fuel is
around 100 ppm, thus 100 litres of fuel could hold about 10 g of
water, so it would depend on how dry the fuel is to begin with.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> rg

I live in Georgia, and there are few places more humid. I've never found
water in my aircraft's tanks. My belief is that water in the fuel usually
comes from a contaminated source. Also from leaky caps. I don't believe
condensation is a major player.

Kyle Boatright

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.

I've never found water in any aircraft I've owned and maintained.

I once drained over a quart of water out of a clapped out old rental
Cherokee 140, in Wisconsin. When I couldn't see any blue gas after using
the fuel tester, I fetched the owner (also the FBO owner), who opened the
quick-drain into a jug until it turned blue.

Shortly afterwards, the FBO stopped using their underground tanks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blueskies]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:GWPCj.23711$TT4.5684@attbi_s22...
>> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
>
> I've never found water in any aircraft I've owned and maintained.
>


It's because the alcohol in the auto fuel absorbs it all...


> I once drained over a quart of water out of a clapped out old rental
> Cherokee 140, in Wisconsin. When I couldn't see any blue gas after using
> the fuel tester, I fetched the owner (also the FBO owner), who opened the
> quick-drain into a jug until it turned blue.
>
> Shortly afterwards, the FBO stopped using their underground tanks.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Ron Garret > wrote in news:rNOSPAMon-
:

> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> rg
>



You've been lucky. I've had it lots of times..


Bertie

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> It's because the alcohol in the auto fuel absorbs it all...

Sadly, we still have to burn a fair amount of that over-priced blue crap
(that fouls my plugs and contaminates the earth) since most airports don't
sell mogas...

I've never found water in either mogas or avgas in our planes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Ron Garret" wrote:

> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)

I've never found any in fuel samples unless the airplane was exposed to rain
and the fuel cap gaskets were defective.

That's in the Mobile, AL area, one of the most humid spots in the U. S.

--
Dan
T182T at 4R4

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:ZyQCj.76791$yE1.8290@attbi_s21:

>> It's because the alcohol in the auto fuel absorbs it all...
>
> Sadly, we still have to burn a fair amount of that over-priced blue
> crap (that fouls my plugs and contaminates the earth) since most
> airports don't sell mogas...
>
> I've never found water in either mogas or avgas in our planes.

Because you don't know how to look, more than likely.


Bertie

[[email protected]]

Ron Garret > wrote:
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)

I'm also in SoCal and have had a few drops a couple of times, except...

One time I stopped for fuel in Barstow. For those not familiar, Barstow
is in the middle of the desert and the last place in the world one
would expect to find water in the gas.

The first sample out of each sump had about a quarter cup of water.

It took many drains from each sump to get to clean gas.

This was a one time occurance (I've been to Barstow many times).

So the moral is, drain, as it only takes one fluke to screw up your day.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Bob Gardner]

Depends on where you live and the design/condition of the fuel caps. Some
older Cessna fuel caps were notorious for letting water into the tanks. I
live in the Seattle area and would never pass up a chance to check for
water.

Bob Gardner

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> rg

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 3:56*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it..)
>
> rg

I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.

How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?

Wil

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

William Hung > wrote in news:ed9d1365-dc16-4b4e-9941-
:

> On Mar 15, 3:56*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
>> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
>
>> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
>> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it
> .)
>>
>> rg
>
> I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.
>
> How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?
>

Same way, but less frequently. Much less frequently.

Bertie

[george]

In the Ag world they never park up with anything but full tanks.
And -they- still check for water.
better to never find it than it is for the engine to find it

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Nomen Nescio > wrote in
:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Ron Garret >
>
>>It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>>once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
>>Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
>>seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with
>>it.)
>
> Oh, It's real.
> I lost an engine on takeoff in my 3rd hour of solo flight as a
> student. The thing just lost power and wound down REAL quick at a few
> hundred ft AGL. It caught again after a very long 5-10 seconds and I
> climbed out, circled around, and landed without further incident. Most
> likely a little water in the line and a few tablespoons of water were
> drained from the tank after. I've written it off as a **** poor fuel
> check by a dumbass 17 y.o. student pilot on the first flight of the
> morning. But since then, I've been goddam careful about draining
> enough fuel to find any water in the system. And I have found some, on
> occasion. It's been 35 years since then without any more problems.
>
> And NO, I didn't need a change of underwear after I landed. :)
> But you probably could have wrung more sweat out of my shirt than we
> found in the fuel.


100LL initially had a big problem with holding water in suspension. it
only stayed in suspension as long as the fuel temp was above freezing,
though.. I don't know if they solved this in later formulations but I
know of a few incidents where this caused problems.



Bertie
>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 11:49 am, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> Depends on where you live and the design/condition of the fuel caps. Some
> older Cessna fuel caps were notorious for letting water into the tanks.


There's an AD on those caps. The gaskets must be inspected every
year. The gasket (an O-ring) shrinks and cracks with age and exposure
to the sun's heat. If the gasket gets bad enough, the low pressure
atop the wing can suck air out of the tanks faster than the vent can
replace it and bladder tanks will collapse, forcing the fuel overboard
while the rising bladder bottom lifts the fuel sender float and makes
the gauge read full. Things can get quiet in a little while.
There are kits available to replace the flush cap with a
raised cap, like those found on the 172, and they don't let water in
nearly so much. They have a decent rubber gasket, not an O-ring.

Tanks that aren't full can promote condensation. Mostly it's a
problem on airplanes parked outside where the wings suffer wide
temperature swings between day and night. As the tanks cool (radiative
cooling into a clear sky can really aggravate it) moist air is drawn
in. As cooling progresses further, the moisture condenses out of that
air onto the tank walls, where it runs down and under the fuel. Next
morning, the sun heats the tanks, drives some of the now-drier air out
and leaving the water behind, and makes room for another load that
evening. Airplanes that sit outside for many weeks in humid areas will
get water in the tanks.

Some airplanes don't have sump drains. Sounds stupid, but the
manufacturers can get away with it. Both of the Citabrias we bought
had plugs in thos sump drains, which we replaced with drain valves.
The fuel selector on most Cessna 172/182 and others has a plug in it
too, that's supposed to come out every 100 hours. Most won't bother.
It gets a drain valve, too. Look under the belly, about under the
front of the copilot's seat.

Sometimes you don't get the water out. Bladder-type tanks
can have lateral wrinkles that prevent the water's flowing to the
sump. There's another Cessna AD on that issue. If the wrinkles trap
enough water, turbulence can dislodge it and it ends up filling the
strainer to the point that the carb gets it. Silence ensues.

Some carbs have really small metering jets that won't pass a
droplet of water, due to its surface tension. Not a good scene at all.
More silence. One drop can ruin your whole day. Many carbs have drain
plugs that should come out once in a while to clear out the
accumulated small bits that get past filters, and any water. The
metering jet is a little above the bottom of the float bowl, so some
water can exist in there until it becomes enough to cause trouble.

Water that sits in a tank long enough can absorb the blue dye and
some of the odor. Beware.

Water left in aluminum tanks will corrode them. We've found
corrosion products and pitting in fuel strainer bowls, indicating that
some owners don't bother draining them, and their mechanics never take
them apart. False economy of the worst sort.

Water in fuel come in three forms: dissolved (all fuel has a
little), entrained (suspended water droplets) and free water, the
stuff we find in the test cup. Dissolved water can precipitate into
what looks like "snow" in the fuel in cold weather and plug filters.
Entrained water will do that, too. Neglected free water can freeze in
drain valves and fuel lines, or just plain stop the engine.

Winter mogas, the stuff "without" ethanol, has a little ethanol
in it to prevent line freezup in cars. Seems to work ok in airplanes,
too. It amounts to less than 1%, they tell me. I wouldn't trust it so
much that I don't check for water. Automobile tanks are a different
setup than in airplanes. Controlled venting through filter canisters,
underneath the car where radiative cooling is no hassle, filters that
won't pass water, and so on.


Dan

[Robert A. Barker]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Ron Garret >
>
>>It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>>once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
>>Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
>>seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> Oh, It's real.
> I lost an engine on takeoff in my 3rd hour of solo flight as a student.
> The thing
> just lost power and wound down REAL quick at a few hundred ft AGL. It
> caught
> again after a very long 5-10 seconds and I climbed out, circled around,
> and
> landed without further incident. Most likely a little water in the line
> and a few
> tablespoons of water were drained from the tank after.
> I've written it off as a **** poor fuel check by a dumbass 17 y.o. student
> pilot
> on the first flight of the morning.
> But since then, I've been goddam careful about draining enough fuel to
> find
> any water in the system. And I have found some, on occasion.
> It's been 35 years since then without any more problems.
>
> And NO, I didn't need a change of underwear after I landed. :)
> But you probably could have wrung more sweat out of my shirt than we found
> in the fuel.
>
>
>
>
My C150 has had water in the tanks on several occasions.We changed
gaskets,and even caps but for
a time it continued.I would get several ounces of water
from one tank or the other.Mine is a F model and the
filler pipe has a well around it like a mote.This seems like the dumbest
idea ever.I don't know what finally corrected
the problem but it seems to have gone away for the past
6-9 months.Needless to say I am VERY careful about
checking the sumps. :-)

Bob Barker N8749S

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 1:11 pm, "Robert A. Barker" > wrote:
> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> > From: Ron Garret >
>
> >>It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> >>once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> >>Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> >>seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> > Oh, It's real.
> > I lost an engine on takeoff in my 3rd hour of solo flight as a student.
> > The thing
> > just lost power and wound down REAL quick at a few hundred ft AGL. It
> > caught
> > again after a very long 5-10 seconds and I climbed out, circled around,
> > and
> > landed without further incident. Most likely a little water in the line
> > and a few
> > tablespoons of water were drained from the tank after.
> > I've written it off as a **** poor fuel check by a dumbass 17 y.o. student
> > pilot
> > on the first flight of the morning.
> > But since then, I've been goddam careful about draining enough fuel to
> > find
> > any water in the system. And I have found some, on occasion.
> > It's been 35 years since then without any more problems.
>
> > And NO, I didn't need a change of underwear after I landed. :)
> > But you probably could have wrung more sweat out of my shirt than we found
> > in the fuel.
>
> My C150 has had water in the tanks on several occasions.We changed
> gaskets,and even caps but for
> a time it continued.I would get several ounces of water
> from one tank or the other.Mine is a F model and the
> filler pipe has a well around it like a mote.This seems like the dumbest
> idea ever.I don't know what finally corrected
> the problem but it seems to have gone away for the past
> 6-9 months.Needless to say I am VERY careful about
> checking the sumps. :-)
>
> Bob Barker N8749S

An accident report from the Transportation Safety Board
(Canada):

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2006/a06q0157/a06q0157.asp?print_view=1

Dan

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 16, 5:46 pm, wrote:
> On Mar 16, 1:11 pm, "Robert A. Barker" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> > > From: Ron Garret >
>
> > >>It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> > >>once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> > >>Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> > >>seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> > > Oh, It's real.
> > > I lost an engine on takeoff in my 3rd hour of solo flight as a student.
> > > The thing
> > > just lost power and wound down REAL quick at a few hundred ft AGL. It
> > > caught
> > > again after a very long 5-10 seconds and I climbed out, circled around,
> > > and
> > > landed without further incident. Most likely a little water in the line
> > > and a few
> > > tablespoons of water were drained from the tank after.
> > > I've written it off as a **** poor fuel check by a dumbass 17 y.o. student
> > > pilot
> > > on the first flight of the morning.
> > > But since then, I've been goddam careful about draining enough fuel to
> > > find
> > > any water in the system. And I have found some, on occasion.
> > > It's been 35 years since then without any more problems.
>
> > > And NO, I didn't need a change of underwear after I landed. :)
> > > But you probably could have wrung more sweat out of my shirt than we found
> > > in the fuel.
>
> > My C150 has had water in the tanks on several occasions.We changed
> > gaskets,and even caps but for
> > a time it continued.I would get several ounces of water
> > from one tank or the other.Mine is a F model and the
> > filler pipe has a well around it like a mote.This seems like the dumbest
> > idea ever.I don't know what finally corrected
> > the problem but it seems to have gone away for the past
> > 6-9 months.Needless to say I am VERY careful about
> > checking the sumps. :-)
>
> > Bob Barker N8749S
>
> An accident report from the Transportation Safety Board
> (Canada):
>
> http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2006/a06q0157/a06q0157.asp?print_...
>
> Dan

"Due to the location of the gascolator drain valve, it was hard for
the pilot to collect the fuel flowing out of it to assess its
condition."

If you're solo good luck unless you have a bucket.

Anyone have an ingenious method for collecting C172 engine sump
sample?


Dan Mc

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 3:15*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> William Hung > wrote in news:ed9d1365-dc16-4b4e-9941-
> :
>
> > On Mar 15, 3:56*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
> >> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> >> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a drop. *
>
> >> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> >> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do with it
> > .)
>
> >> rg
>
> > I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.
>
> > How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?
>
> Same way, but less frequently. Much less frequently.
>
> Bertie

Considering the "air space" available in their tanks, one would think
that condensation would be a problem. I don't remember ever seeing
gascolators on the big ones. Where are they at?

Wil

[Robert A. Barker]

> wrote in message
...
> On Mar 16, 1:11 pm, "Robert A. Barker" > wrote:
>> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>

>>
>> My C150 has had water in the tanks on several occasions.We changed
>> gaskets,and even caps but for
>> a time it continued.I would get several ounces of water
>> from one tank or the other.Mine is a F model and the
>> filler pipe has a well around it like a mote.This seems like the dumbest
>> idea ever.I don't know what finally corrected
>> the problem but it seems to have gone away for the past
>> 6-9 months.Needless to say I am VERY careful about
>> checking the sumps. :-)
>>
>> Bob Barker N8749S
>
> An accident report from the Transportation Safety Board
> (Canada):
>
> http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2006/a06q0157/a06q0157.asp?print_view=1
>
> Dan

Very interesting.I can reach from the linkage under the
cowl to the colater drain and have only found a couple
of drops of water during all of the time I had problems
with the water in the tanks.I usually rock the plane hard
and let it settle 3 or 4 minutes prior to sumping the tanks.

Bob Barker N8749S

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

William Hung > wrote in news:c180217b-4f15-406d-862a-
:

> On Mar 15, 3:15*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> William Hung > wrote in news:ed9d1365-dc16-4b4e-
9941-
>> :
>>
>> > On Mar 15, 3:56*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
>> >> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have
never
>> >> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. *Not a
drop.
> *
>>
>> >> Ever. *Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as
it
>
>> >> seems to be? *(I fly in SoCal. *Maybe that has something to do
with
> it
>> > .)
>>
>> >> rg
>>
>> > I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.
>>
>> > How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?
>>
>> Same way, but less frequently. Much less frequently.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Considering the "air space" available in their tanks, one would think
> that condensation would be a problem. I don't remember ever seeing
> gascolators on the big ones. Where are they at?

In the wing roots foro the wing tanks and underneath the fuselage for
the center, but we never check them ourselves. In fact I don't know how
often they do get checked, but I do know it isn't often. I'll ask the
guys next time I go out.


Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 3:18 pm, Dan > wrote:

> "Due to the location of the gascolator drain valve, it was hard for
> the pilot to collect the fuel flowing out of it to assess its
> condition."
>
> If you're solo good luck unless you have a bucket.
>
> Anyone have an ingenious method for collecting C172 engine sump
> sample?
>
> Dan Mc

We do it all the time. There's a small tube off the strainer
(or should be), and if you stick the sample cup over it and reach up
and yank the strainer drain, you can catch it. It's a bit of a reach
but even our small students manage it. I have a harder time, not
because of short arms, but because I'm getting stiffer in the low back
and hips and such gymnastics cost me some.
But most people don't bother. If they do anything at all, they
just dribble a little squirt onto the pavement and let it go at that,
assuming that they've cleared out any water. But if the strainer was
three-quarters full of water, they've just lowered the level a little.
And if it was three-quarters full, the rest of the system might have
lots laying in it, enough to overwhelm the strainer when it arrives.
Or if the weather's really cold, the frozen entrained water ("snow")
might be there, and they don't notice it. Until it plugs the screens
in the strainer or carb inlet.
I'd rather have the Citabria's setup: strainer drain cock that
sticks out of the side of the cowl. Push and catch. Simple and cheap,
but not so sleek.

Dan

[Dan[_10_]]

On Mar 16, 7:35 pm, wrote:
> On Mar 16, 3:18 pm, Dan > wrote:
>
> > "Due to the location of the gascolator drain valve, it was hard for
> > the pilot to collect the fuel flowing out of it to assess its
> > condition."
>
> > If you're solo good luck unless you have a bucket.
>
> > Anyone have an ingenious method for collecting C172 engine sump
> > sample?
>
> > Dan Mc
>
> We do it all the time. There's a small tube off the strainer
> (or should be), and if you stick the sample cup over it and reach up
> and yank the strainer drain, you can catch it. It's a bit of a reach
> but even our small students manage it. I have a harder time, not
> because of short arms, but because I'm getting stiffer in the low back
> and hips and such gymnastics cost me some.
> But most people don't bother. If they do anything at all, they
> just dribble a little squirt onto the pavement and let it go at that,
> assuming that they've cleared out any water. But if the strainer was
> three-quarters full of water, they've just lowered the level a little.
> And if it was three-quarters full, the rest of the system might have
> lots laying in it, enough to overwhelm the strainer when it arrives.
> Or if the weather's really cold, the frozen entrained water ("snow")
> might be there, and they don't notice it. Until it plugs the screens
> in the strainer or carb inlet.
> I'd rather have the Citabria's setup: strainer drain cock that
> sticks out of the side of the cowl. Push and catch. Simple and cheap,
> but not so sleek.
>
> Dan

The C172E has a gasculator that requires you open the cowling and
reach down or reach up underneath the opening behind the nosewheel.

I'm 6'1" and there's no way I can reach the release on the left side
of the panel and the drain underneath the gasculator on the right side
of the nosewheel. You'd need 10' arms to do that.

The 172N has the drain control next to the oil dipstick (top access
panel). That I can reach, though ridiculous gyrations are required.

The Bonanzas have a good setup -- small access panel at the lowest
point in the system with a quick drain.


Dan Mc

[Margy Natalie]

wrote:
> On Mar 16, 3:18 pm, Dan > wrote:
>
>
>>"Due to the location of the gascolator drain valve, it was hard for
>>the pilot to collect the fuel flowing out of it to assess its
>>condition."
>>
>>If you're solo good luck unless you have a bucket.
>>
>>Anyone have an ingenious method for collecting C172 engine sump
>>sample?
>>
>>Dan Mc
>
>
> We do it all the time. There's a small tube off the strainer
> (or should be), and if you stick the sample cup over it and reach up
> and yank the strainer drain, you can catch it. It's a bit of a reach
> but even our small students manage it. I have a harder time, not
> because of short arms, but because I'm getting stiffer in the low back
> and hips and such gymnastics cost me some.
> But most people don't bother. If they do anything at all, they
> just dribble a little squirt onto the pavement and let it go at that,
> assuming that they've cleared out any water. But if the strainer was
> three-quarters full of water, they've just lowered the level a little.
> And if it was three-quarters full, the rest of the system might have
> lots laying in it, enough to overwhelm the strainer when it arrives.
> Or if the weather's really cold, the frozen entrained water ("snow")
> might be there, and they don't notice it. Until it plugs the screens
> in the strainer or carb inlet.
> I'd rather have the Citabria's setup: strainer drain cock that
> sticks out of the side of the cowl. Push and catch. Simple and cheap,
> but not so sleek.
>
> Dan
>
I can't imagine being able to pull the strainer in a 172 and reach down
and grab a sample at the same time (but I'm short). My primary
instructor always had me look at the sample as it was straining to see
how quickly it evaporated. He pulled the strainer and then put some
water out and there is a difference. Now if it was 90% avgas and 10%
water I probably wouldn't have noticed at all.

Margy

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 10:37 pm, george > wrote:
> In the Ag world they never park up with anything but full tanks.
> And -they- still check for water.
> better to never find it than it is for the engine to find it

No kidding. Not much gliding distance to futz around with switching
tanks or whatever fuel troubleshooting when your normal flying regime
is typically in or just slightly above ground effect.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 2:56 am, Ron Garret > wrote:
> It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
> once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
> Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
> seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)
>
> rg

I've only had one serious occurrence of water contamination, right
after refueling at a little airport just northwest of San Antonio. I
generally always sump my tanks after refueling, especially at strange
airports, and this time I got about a full cup of ugly brown water out
of one tank and a half cup out of the other. I complained to the FBO
and they were were rude to me for having dared to complain about their
fuel. I've never been back to that airport ever again. Three guesses
which airport that was... hint there's only one immediately due
northwest of the city.

I have seen the occasional drop or two from condensation, and also
whenever I wash my airplane (lots of water from a garden hose over the
tops of the wings) I'll get a drop or two. I've never gotten any water
from flying thru rain.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"William Hung" > wrote

> I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.

> How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?

William, the big difference here, is the fact that jet fuel, kerosene and
diesel fuel all have the ability to absorb moisture right out of the air,
and to dissolve the water in the fuel with no line of separation, like
happens with gas and water.

Right off hand, I would guess that there would be a point where it could no
longer absorb it all but I don't know for sure, right or wrong.
--
Jim in NC

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:56:30 -0700, Ron Garret >
wrote:

>It occurred to me today that in fifteen years of flying I have never
>once found water in my fuel when I've drained my tanks. Not a drop.
>Ever. Am I just lucky, or is this really as rare an occurrence as it
>seems to be? (I fly in SoCal. Maybe that has something to do with it.)

Wellll... From good old Michigan where we can easily see 30 degrees
change between night and day, day after day that can amount to a lot
of condensation. Keeping tanks full or nearly so seems to take care
of the problem but half full with the plane in a steel hangar with a
concrete floor usually means water in the thanks.

Stored indoors, if you can call an unheated steel hangar indoors (at
least it's out of the rain) particularly in the spring where the
humidity is usually very high and temperature swings can be 50 or more
degrees between day and night although 30 is typical (50 day, 30
night The next 10 days are showing mostly 40's in the day and teens
to 20s at night) I have taken over a pint out of 25 gallon tanks that
were about 1/4 full.

Outdoors is little different unless the cap seals are leaking which
does happen on Bonanza/Debonair caps. In that case they serve as great
substitutes for funnels and even full tanks get ...fuller<:-)) The
gas gets displaced and the water collects.

I had to store the Deb outside while they were redoing the taxiways a
few years back. We had quite a bit of rain during that period and I
was getting one to two pints a day with full tanks. A quick trip to
the FBO took care of that. At least I know from that and flying in
torrential rain the window and door seals work well. <:-))


>
>rg
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Mar 15, 11:49 am, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>> Depends on where you live and the design/condition of the fuel caps. Some
>> older Cessna fuel caps were notorious for letting water into the tanks.
>
>
> There's an AD on those caps. The gaskets must be inspected every
>year. The gasket (an O-ring) shrinks and cracks with age and exposure
>to the sun's heat. If the gasket gets bad enough, the low pressure
>atop the wing can suck air out of the tanks faster than the vent can
>replace it and bladder tanks will collapse, forcing the fuel overboard

You don't need bladder tanks for that. Some years back I took off on
36. Where 36 crosses 06/24 there is slight rise and that is right
where I rotate. I did a rater agressive rotation into a steep climb.
That was the point where I discovered the caps on both tip tanks were
in need of adjusting. (They felt fine in the preflight, they are like
a thermos bottle top). Both caps blew off at the same instant. Both
tanks were *DRY* by the time I could make it around a tight pattern to
land. Each holds 15-16 gallons. At today's prices that pattern took
over $150 worth of gas not counting what went through the engine.

>while the rising bladder bottom lifts the fuel sender float and makes
>the gauge read full. Things can get quiet in a little while.
> There are kits available to replace the flush cap with a
>raised cap, like those found on the 172, and they don't let water in
>nearly so much. They have a decent rubber gasket, not an O-ring.
>
> Tanks that aren't full can promote condensation. Mostly it's a
>problem on airplanes parked outside where the wings suffer wide
>temperature swings between day and night. As the tanks cool (radiative
>cooling into a clear sky can really aggravate it) moist air is drawn
>in. As cooling progresses further, the moisture condenses out of that
>air onto the tank walls, where it runs down and under the fuel. Next
>morning, the sun heats the tanks, drives some of the now-drier air out
>and leaving the water behind, and makes room for another load that
>evening. Airplanes that sit outside for many weeks in humid areas will
>get water in the tanks.
>
> Some airplanes don't have sump drains. Sounds stupid, but the
>manufacturers can get away with it. Both of the Citabrias we bought
>had plugs in thos sump drains, which we replaced with drain valves.
>The fuel selector on most Cessna 172/182 and others has a plug in it
>too, that's supposed to come out every 100 hours. Most won't bother.
>It gets a drain valve, too. Look under the belly, about under the
>front of the copilot's seat.
>
> Sometimes you don't get the water out. Bladder-type tanks
>can have lateral wrinkles that prevent the water's flowing to the
>sump. There's another Cessna AD on that issue. If the wrinkles trap
>enough water, turbulence can dislodge it and it ends up filling the
>strainer to the point that the carb gets it. Silence ensues.
>
> Some carbs have really small metering jets that won't pass a
>droplet of water, due to its surface tension. Not a good scene at all.
>More silence. One drop can ruin your whole day. Many carbs have drain
>plugs that should come out once in a while to clear out the
>accumulated small bits that get past filters, and any water. The
>metering jet is a little above the bottom of the float bowl, so some
>water can exist in there until it becomes enough to cause trouble.
>
> Water that sits in a tank long enough can absorb the blue dye and
>some of the odor. Beware.
>
> Water left in aluminum tanks will corrode them. We've found
>corrosion products and pitting in fuel strainer bowls, indicating that
>some owners don't bother draining them, and their mechanics never take
>them apart. False economy of the worst sort.
>
> Water in fuel come in three forms: dissolved (all fuel has a
>little), entrained (suspended water droplets) and free water, the
>stuff we find in the test cup. Dissolved water can precipitate into
>what looks like "snow" in the fuel in cold weather and plug filters.
>Entrained water will do that, too. Neglected free water can freeze in
>drain valves and fuel lines, or just plain stop the engine.
>
> Winter mogas, the stuff "without" ethanol, has a little ethanol
>in it to prevent line freezup in cars. Seems to work ok in airplanes,
>too. It amounts to less than 1%, they tell me. I wouldn't trust it so
>much that I don't check for water. Automobile tanks are a different
>setup than in airplanes. Controlled venting through filter canisters,
>underneath the car where radiative cooling is no hassle, filters that
>won't pass water, and so on.
>
>
> Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Roger" wrote:

>
> Stored indoors, if you can call an unheated steel hangar indoors (at
> least it's out of the rain) particularly in the spring where the
> humidity is usually very high and temperature swings can be 50 or more
> degrees between day and night although 30 is typical (50 day, 30
> night The next 10 days are showing mostly 40's in the day and teens
> to 20s at night) I have taken over a pint out of 25 gallon tanks that
> were about 1/4 full.

Hmm... I don't understand this.

One cubic meter (about 264 gallons ) of saturated air at 32 degrees F.
contains about 5 to 6 grams of water vapor. The fact that the temperatures
were falling into the 20s indicates that the air had less moisture in it than
that. There couldn't have been even a gram of water in 17 gallons of air at
those temperatures.

Where was the water coming from?

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in
:

>
> "Roger" wrote:
>
>>
>> Stored indoors, if you can call an unheated steel hangar indoors (at
>> least it's out of the rain) particularly in the spring where the
>> humidity is usually very high and temperature swings can be 50 or
>> more degrees between day and night although 30 is typical (50 day,
>> 30 night The next 10 days are showing mostly 40's in the day and
>> teens to 20s at night) I have taken over a pint out of 25 gallon
>> tanks that were about 1/4 full.
>
> Hmm... I don't understand this.
>
> One cubic meter (about 264 gallons ) of saturated air at 32 degrees F.
> contains about 5 to 6 grams of water vapor. The fact that the
> temperatures were falling into the 20s indicates that the air had less
> moisture in it than that. There couldn't have been even a gram of
> water in 17 gallons of air at those temperatures.
>
> Where was the water coming from?

It was probably suspended in the fuel.


Bertie
>

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 18, 11:34*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "WilliamHung" > wrote
>
> > I've never come across any either, but my experience is limited.
> > How do the big boys check for water, the Boeings and the Busses?
>
> William, the big difference here, is the fact that jet fuel, kerosene and
> diesel fuel all have the ability to absorb moisture right out of the air,
> and to dissolve the water in the fuel with no line of separation, like
> happens with gas and water.
>
> Right off hand, I would guess that there would be a point where it could no
> longer absorb it all but I don't know for sure, right or wrong.
> --
> Jim in NC

Thanks Jim. Makes sense.

Wil