Parachutes & life expectancy

[fredsez]

Maybe I don't know, but from more than 60 years of soaring and powered
flight, from my own eyeballs, and numerous written reports I have
concluded that parachutes will alter behavior. How many injury
accidents and fatals have been recorded that have the factor
"Parachute worn" or no "parachute worn".

If I choose to wear a parachute it is because I intend to test the
flight characteristics to the limit in an untested aircraft. Without
the chute I would not make the flight. My behavior is altered.

If I wear a chute in a contest, it may, but I doubt that it would
alter my behavior.

If I do low altitude aerobatic, or high speed...really high speed
passes would I really think a chute would help if things go wrong?

Would I fly closer to other gliders in a thermal because I was wearing
a chute?

Would I buzz a Boy Scout troop on a mountain top if I was not wearing
a chute?

Most of my 30,000 flights in airplanes and gliders were without
chutes. In some of the flights with chute, When I really wanted to use
the chute, I did not dare because I was too low. I had to make the
best of a bad situation and land. I have never made a landing that
caused more than a ding.

Fly safely, keep your mind on the task ahead, don't overload your
mind, don't depend on your chute to save your life when things go
badly or unexpectedly.

Wear a chute when required or when desired. but do not alter your
behavior because you feel safer with it on your back. Fred

[Cats]

On Mar 17, 4:23*am, fredsez > wrote:
> Maybe I don't know, but from more than 60 years of soaring and powered
> flight, from my own eyeballs, and numerous written reports I have
> concluded that parachutes will alter behavior. How many injury
> accidents and fatals have been recorded that have the factor
> "Parachute worn" or no "parachute worn".
>
> If I choose to wear a parachute it is because I intend to test the
> flight characteristics to the limit in an untested aircraft. Without
> the chute I would not make the flight. My behavior is altered.
>
> If I wear a chute in a contest, it may, but I doubt that it would
> alter my behavior.
>
> If I do low altitude aerobatic, or high speed...really high speed
> passes would I really think a chute would help if things go wrong?
>
> Would I fly closer to other gliders in a thermal because I was wearing
> a chute?
>
> Would I buzz a Boy Scout troop on a mountain top if I was not wearing
> a chute?
>
> Most of my 30,000 flights in airplanes *and gliders were without
> chutes. In some of the flights with chute, When I really wanted to use
> the chute, I did not dare because I was too low. I had to make the
> best of a bad situation and land. I have never made a landing that
> caused more than a ding.
>
> Fly safely, keep your mind on the task ahead, don't overload your
> mind, don't depend on your chute to save your life when things go
> badly or unexpectedly.
>
> Wear a chute when required or when desired. but do not alter your
> behavior because you feel safer with it on your back. Fred


If I don't wear a parachute my feet won't reach the rudder pedals.
For people that always wear one I doubt they alter behaviour much
because they become something we don't think much about - we keep them
dry,get them repacked from time to time, put them on with care, but
for most of us actually having to use one is one of our nightmares.

[Todd]

I wear one because my glider handbook says it is required or I must
fit some additional cushion in the seat back. Given the choice
between a piece of safety equipment or a piece of foam, I will take
the safety equipment. Remember, the unlucky pilot is one who has run
out of Altitude, Airspeed and, Options. The parachute is just another
option!

If you extend your logic (which I will agree may have some degree of
truth), then I drive my car differently because I wear seat belts and
have airbags. Accidents are accidents and I am quite certain that we
all strive to avoid them, parachute or not.

[Bill Daniels]

Although I don't think it generally applies to glider pilots wearing
parachutes, there is a well documented "Airbag Effect" where drivers of big
SUV's with huge crush zones, seat belts and airbags, do tend to drive more
agressively since they have a feeling of invunerability. This behavior has
led to the safety benefits of these devices being statistically less than
was expected.

Speaking from personal experience, if you feel that you are flying more
agressively because you are wearing a parachute, I suggest that you attend a
skydiving school who offeres a course in the use of emergency 'chutes and
make one training jump. That disuaded me from undue reliance on my backpack
since it's an experience I don't want to repeat.

You could also ask anyone who has used an emergency 'chute if they'd like to
repeat the experience :)

Bill D


"Todd" > wrote in message
...
>I wear one because my glider handbook says it is required or I must
> fit some additional cushion in the seat back. Given the choice
> between a piece of safety equipment or a piece of foam, I will take
> the safety equipment. Remember, the unlucky pilot is one who has run
> out of Altitude, Airspeed and, Options. The parachute is just another
> option!
>
> If you extend your logic (which I will agree may have some degree of
> truth), then I drive my car differently because I wear seat belts and
> have airbags. Accidents are accidents and I am quite certain that we
> all strive to avoid them, parachute or not.

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:12:52 -0600, "Bill Daniels"
<bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
[snip]
>
>You could also ask anyone who has used an emergency 'chute if they'd like to
>repeat the experience :)
>
Not counting ejections, of course...years ago I saw a TV documentary
of life among a carrier air group. They ran two interviews with one
pilot, one early in the deployment and one just after he'd had an
engine failure off the cat and ejected into the water.

In the first one he was all charged up, loads of gung-ho, your basic
indestructibility complex. In the second, he was wide-eyed,
off-center, and saying "I don't EVER wanna ride that seat again!"

rj

[Tim Mara]

I "write here on rec.aviation" only because I wear a parachute....
if I didn't wear a parachute I wouldn't be here to write this....
tim "a certified member of the caterpillar club"
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Cats" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 4:23 am, fredsez > wrote:
> Maybe I don't know, but from more than 60 years of soaring and powered
> flight, from my own eyeballs, and numerous written reports I have
> concluded that parachutes will alter behavior. How many injury
> accidents and fatals have been recorded that have the factor
> "Parachute worn" or no "parachute worn".
>
> If I choose to wear a parachute it is because I intend to test the
> flight characteristics to the limit in an untested aircraft. Without
> the chute I would not make the flight. My behavior is altered.
>
> If I wear a chute in a contest, it may, but I doubt that it would
> alter my behavior.
>
> If I do low altitude aerobatic, or high speed...really high speed
> passes would I really think a chute would help if things go wrong?
>
> Would I fly closer to other gliders in a thermal because I was wearing
> a chute?
>
> Would I buzz a Boy Scout troop on a mountain top if I was not wearing
> a chute?
>
> Most of my 30,000 flights in airplanes and gliders were without
> chutes. In some of the flights with chute, When I really wanted to use
> the chute, I did not dare because I was too low. I had to make the
> best of a bad situation and land. I have never made a landing that
> caused more than a ding.
>
> Fly safely, keep your mind on the task ahead, don't overload your
> mind, don't depend on your chute to save your life when things go
> badly or unexpectedly.
>
> Wear a chute when required or when desired. but do not alter your
> behavior because you feel safer with it on your back. Fred


If I don't wear a parachute my feet won't reach the rudder pedals.
For people that always wear one I doubt they alter behaviour much
because they become something we don't think much about - we keep them
dry,get them repacked from time to time, put them on with care, but
for most of us actually having to use one is one of our nightmares.

[Michael Ash]

Todd > wrote:
> I wear one because my glider handbook says it is required or I must
> fit some additional cushion in the seat back. Given the choice
> between a piece of safety equipment or a piece of foam, I will take
> the safety equipment. Remember, the unlucky pilot is one who has run
> out of Altitude, Airspeed and, Options. The parachute is just another
> option!

I feel compelled to point out that if you're out of altitude, your
parachute probably won't save you.

> If you extend your logic (which I will agree may have some degree of
> truth), then I drive my car differently because I wear seat belts and
> have airbags. Accidents are accidents and I am quite certain that we
> all strive to avoid them, parachute or not.

It's quite likely that you do drive your car differently because of the
seat belts and airbags:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

I've seen it suggested in a half-joking manner that we ought to replace
the car's airbags with a large spike mounted on the steering wheel pointed
straight at the driver's chest. People will drive more carefully and get
into fewer accidents. Personally I'll be keeping my airbag, though....

I'm not sure how much this would apply to parachutes. It seems to me that
parachutes save you from a lot of accidents that aren't greatly influenced
by your behavior, like mid-air collisions and structural breakups, such
that it's difficult to increase your risk.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Bill Daniels]

"Michael Ash" > wrote in message
...
> Todd > wrote:

> I've seen it suggested in a half-joking manner that we ought to replace
> the car's airbags with a large spike mounted on the steering wheel pointed
> straight at the driver's chest. People will drive more carefully and get
> into fewer accidents. Personally I'll be keeping my airbag, though....
>

After riding motorcycles extensively in my teens and twenties I have
returned to riding as a fuel saving measure. I can tell your that when
riding a motorcycle with none of the safety devices found on automobiles, I
ride EXTREMELY defensively.

BTW, I DO NOT reccomend anyone try to learn motorcycle riding as an adult.
Youngsters learn faster...... and heal faster.

Bill D

[ghost rider via AviationKB.com]

Bill Daniels wrote:

>
>BTW, I DO NOT reccomend anyone try to learn motorcycle riding as an adult.
>Youngsters learn faster...... and heal faster.
>
>Bill D
Yep,
But I felt I had to stop riding after i saw my seventh or eighth car-driving-
idiot-text-messaging-with-a-portable-dvd-player-on-the-dash nearly wipe me
across four lanes.

Its not the same world out there on the road.

ya be careful now.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200803/1

[Bill Daniels]

"ghost rider via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote in message
news:814f7de62de9c@uwe...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>>
>>BTW, I DO NOT reccomend anyone try to learn motorcycle riding as an adult.
>>Youngsters learn faster...... and heal faster.
>>
>>Bill D
> Yep,
> But I felt I had to stop riding after i saw my seventh or eighth
> car-driving-
> idiot-text-messaging-with-a-portable-dvd-player-on-the-dash nearly wipe me
> across four lanes.
> http://www.transducertechniques.com/TLL-Load-Cell.cfm
> Its not the same world out there on the road.
>
> ya be careful now.
>
> --
> Message posted via AviationKB.com
> http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200803/1
>

This thread is way off the topic of gliding but it might be fun for someone
anyway.

A couple of days ago I was approaching a traffic light instesection with two
lanes each way - I had the green light. An 'idiot' approaching from my
right ran his red light and stopped in the intersection directly ahead of me
and looked to his right away from me as if to see if he had run the light on
the street he was looking for. I was driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

I could have easily stopped several car lengths short of him or changed
lanes and gone around him. Instead, I waited a second or two until slamming
on my brakes would stop me just short of his drivers door with a loud
screech and blareing horn. He snapped his head around, turned several
shades paler and visibly shrank in his seat. Then a look slowly came over
his face indicating a need for clean underwear.

I'm sure this guy knew he shouldn't be running red lights but I'll bet he's
got a better grip on the concept now. There are red light cameras at that
intersection and I saw the flash as he ran the light. It'll be interesting
if I get a call from the police.

Bill D

[Barny]

I recall a something about the FAA requiring a chute if we exceed
certain pitch or bank. This Spring you'll see me on the outside of
the gaggle at about 59 deg bank.
~Barny

[Shawn[_5_]]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Michael Ash" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Todd > wrote:
>
>> I've seen it suggested in a half-joking manner that we ought to replace
>> the car's airbags with a large spike mounted on the steering wheel pointed
>> straight at the driver's chest. People will drive more carefully and get
>> into fewer accidents. Personally I'll be keeping my airbag, though....
>>
>
> After riding motorcycles extensively in my teens and twenties I have
> returned to riding as a fuel saving measure. I can tell your that when
> riding a motorcycle with none of the safety devices found on automobiles, I
> ride EXTREMELY defensively.

While riding home from the dealership on my slick little 250 I came to
the horrifying realization that I had never motorcycled in the age of
the cell phone :-O (sold my last motorcycle to pay for flying lessons 16
years ago :-) ). I got over the shock quickly, realizing that I'd been
bicycling with the tuned out, texting idiots the entire time. That
said, I'm also much more defensive than in my earlier motorcycling days.

> BTW, I DO NOT recommend anyone try to learn motorcycle riding as an adult.

I would agree, unless you've been successfully bicycling in traffic for
at least a few years. Similar survival skills.

> Youngsters learn faster...... and heal faster.

Some don't learn, but they do heal faster.

Shawn

P.S. Nice to see Bill's, mine, and a third motorcycle in among all the
cages at the field last weekend.

P.P.S. Not your father's 250 bike :-)
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/596/0/home.aspx

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:09:50 -0600, "Bill Daniels"
<bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:

[snip]
>
>A couple of days ago I was approaching a traffic light instesection with two
>lanes each way - I had the green light. An 'idiot' approaching from my
>right ran his red light and stopped in the intersection directly ahead of me
>and looked to his right away from me as if to see if he had run the light on
>the street he was looking for. I was driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
>
>I could have easily stopped several car lengths short of him or changed
>lanes and gone around him. Instead, I waited a second or two until slamming
>on my brakes would stop me just short of his drivers door with a loud
>screech and blareing horn. He snapped his head around, turned several
>shades paler and visibly shrank in his seat. Then a look slowly came over
>his face indicating a need for clean underwear.
>
>I'm sure this guy knew he shouldn't be running red lights but I'll bet he's
>got a better grip on the concept now. There are red light cameras at that
>intersection and I saw the flash as he ran the light. It'll be interesting
>if I get a call from the police.
>
I do something similar on foot, when I see somebody walking blindly
toward me while twisting around and talking over his shoulder. Instead
of politely dodging, I just turn my back to him, hit a brace position,
and let the jackass make a jackass of himself...;-)

rj

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:22:20 -0700 (PDT), Barny
> wrote:

>I recall a something about the FAA requiring a chute if we exceed
>certain pitch or bank. This Spring you'll see me on the outside of
>the gaggle at about 59 deg bank.
>~Barny

If there are two or more people aboard and you exceed 60 degrees of
bank or 30 degrees of pitch, every occupant has to have a parachute.
If you're solo, it's your call.

rj

[[email protected]]

On Mar 17, 8:12 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Although I don't think it generally applies to glider pilots wearing
> parachutes, there is a well documented "Airbag Effect" where drivers of big
> SUV's with huge crush zones, seat belts and airbags, do tend to drive more
> agressively since they have a feeling of invunerability. This behavior has
> led to the safety benefits of these devices being statistically less than
> was expected.
>
> Speaking from personal experience, if you feel that you are flying more
> agressively because you are wearing a parachute, I suggest that you attend a
> skydiving school who offeres a course in the use of emergency 'chutes and
> make one training jump. That disuaded me from undue reliance on my backpack
> since it's an experience I don't want to repeat.
>
> You could also ask anyone who has used an emergency 'chute if they'd like to
> repeat the experience :)
>
> Bill D
>
> "Todd" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I wear one because my glider handbook says it is required or I must
> > fit some additional cushion in the seat back. Given the choice
> > between a piece of safety equipment or a piece of foam, I will take
> > the safety equipment. Remember, the unlucky pilot is one who has run
> > out of Altitude, Airspeed and, Options. The parachute is just another
> > option!
>
> > If you extend your logic (which I will agree may have some degree of
> > truth), then I drive my car differently because I wear seat belts and
> > have airbags. Accidents are accidents and I am quite certain that we
> > all strive to avoid them, parachute or not.

Add anti-lock brakes and stability assist to the list of car systems
that drivers think will allow them to defy the laws of physics....

Steve

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 17, 4:09*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> *I was driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
> I could have easily stopped several car lengths short of him or changed
> lanes and gone around him. *Instead, I waited a second or two until
> slamming
> on my brakes


Must be that Jeep thing the rest of us don't understand!

[Al G[_1_]]

"Cats" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 4:23 am, fredsez > wrote:
> Maybe I don't know, but from more than 60 years of soaring and powered
> flight, from my own eyeballs, and numerous written reports I have
> concluded that parachutes will alter behavior. How many injury
> accidents and fatals have been recorded that have the factor
> "Parachute worn" or no "parachute worn".
>
> If I choose to wear a parachute it is because I intend to test the
> flight characteristics to the limit in an untested aircraft. Without
> the chute I would not make the flight. My behavior is altered.
>
> If I wear a chute in a contest, it may, but I doubt that it would
> alter my behavior.
>
> If I do low altitude aerobatic, or high speed...really high speed
> passes would I really think a chute would help if things go wrong?
>
> Would I fly closer to other gliders in a thermal because I was wearing
> a chute?
>
> Would I buzz a Boy Scout troop on a mountain top if I was not wearing
> a chute?
>
> Most of my 30,000 flights in airplanes and gliders were without
> chutes. In some of the flights with chute, When I really wanted to use
> the chute, I did not dare because I was too low. I had to make the
> best of a bad situation and land. I have never made a landing that
> caused more than a ding.
>
> Fly safely, keep your mind on the task ahead, don't overload your
> mind, don't depend on your chute to save your life when things go
> badly or unexpectedly.
>
> Wear a chute when required or when desired. but do not alter your
> behavior because you feel safer with it on your back. Fred



Luck is where Opportunity meets Preparation, so far I have been very
lucky.

Al G