Re: Club insurance? Club utilization?

[Mike Isaksen]

"Robert Barker" ...
> "Mike Isaksen" ...
>>
>> "Robert Barker" wrote ...
>>> We're currently with AVEMCO.... They impose a limit on
>>> the # of members we can have per club airplane.
>>
>> Do you recall the member count per airplane they set as a limit?
>>
> They had several levels with different rates at each level. We're
> currently limited to 25 members per aircraft.

As another followup, 25 (flying and named on policy) members per airplane
would have seemed unmanageable 10 or 20 years ago. My club meetings turned
into tirates when we first considered going from 10 to 12 per plane. Now I'm
seeing member flying hours per year in the single digits, and a club almost
needs 20 members per just to keep operational hours on the planes above 250
per year.

What are you guys seeing as the recent numbers coming in from the clubs?
a. Recent and past "hours per member per year"?
b. Recent and past "hours per plane per year"?

[BillJ]

Mike Isaksen wrote:
> "Robert Barker" ...
>
>>"Mike Isaksen" ...
>>
>>>"Robert Barker" wrote ...
>>>
>>>> We're currently with AVEMCO.... They impose a limit on
>>>> the # of members we can have per club airplane.
>>>
>>>Do you recall the member count per airplane they set as a limit?
>>>
>>
>>They had several levels with different rates at each level. We're
>>currently limited to 25 members per aircraft.
>
>
> As another followup, 25 (flying and named on policy) members per airplane
> would have seemed unmanageable 10 or 20 years ago. My club meetings turned
> into tirates when we first considered going from 10 to 12 per plane. Now I'm
> seeing member flying hours per year in the single digits, and a club almost
> needs 20 members per just to keep operational hours on the planes above 250
> per year.
>
> What are you guys seeing as the recent numbers coming in from the clubs?
> a. Recent and past "hours per member per year"?
> b. Recent and past "hours per plane per year"?
>
>
Our club with 20 members and 1 IFR Warrior has dropped from 350 to 100
hours in just two years. Rates are $50 per hour +33 per montht, and
need to go up. We are considering going to 25 members. Avemco says rates
(now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.

[Steve Foley]

"BillJ" > wrote in message
...

says rates
> (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.

Is that a typo?

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:38:05 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:

>"BillJ" > wrote in message
...
>
>says rates
>> (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
>Is that a typo?

I would hope so, that's barely short of the kind of number I've seen
quoted for a CE510.

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 21, 9:38*am, "Steve Foley" > wrote:
> "BillJ" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> says rates
>
> > * (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
> Is that a typo?

Why would it be a typo?

Look at it this way. The average private airplane flies about 26
hours per year (that includes partnerships but not clubs, AFAIK, and
the number is a few years old so I imagine it is less now). The
median is lower still, because you can't go to less than zero but
there are quite a few of us in the 100-200 hour range.

Back before I maxed everything, I used to get a small discount for
flying over 100 hours a year. Not a huge one, but it was something.
Think about that. The plane is flying 4 times as much as average
(probably 5x to 6x the median) and yet the overall premium (and thus
the overall risk) is less. That makes sense - it indicates that
proficiency is more important than exposure, and that's consistent
with other information we have. What is that other information?
Well, we know that personal flying is the most dangerous kind of
flying there is, worse than cropdusting (See any Nall Report), and
that by comparison flight instruction and self-flown business travel
are relatively safe.

So what have we got? Well, we've got 20 pilots, all of them flying
too little, and with access to an IFR airplane. It would honestly be
safer if they were student pilots - then they would be under the
supervision of a CFI and flying regularly. So what's the private rate
on a student pilot in a nice IFR Warrior, full coverage? $1500/yr?
Maybe more? $35000 for 20 pilots who are more dangerous sounds pretty
fair to me.

I know that a flight school local to my old home field was paying well
over $20/plane to insure its fleet, and the average plane int that
fleet was a beat up, piece of crap Warrior that wasn't worth much.
They also had something like $5K or $10K deductibles, which in effect
meant the students and CFI's all had to carry their own insurance.
Once again, the rate seems in line with what's out there.

For a long time, aviation underwriters lost money on club/FBO
policies. It was sort of a genleman's agreement - they had to keep
those places in business to assure a supply of new pilots, who would
become owners and keep the profitable part of the business (personal
aircraft policies) alive. Now that's over, and they're charging what
it takes to make money. That means accepting the reality that a plane
that is flown 250 hours a year by 20 different people is subject to
more than 20 times the risk of loss then a plane that is flown 250
hours a year by one pilot, and should cost more.

Michael

[Steve Foley]

"Michael" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 21, 9:38 am, "Steve Foley" > wrote:
> "BillJ" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> says rates
>
> > (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
>> Is that a typo?

>Why would it be a typo?

Back when they were flying 350 hours a year, they were only bringing in
$25,420 ($50 x 350 + $33 x 12 x 20). Dropping that to 100 hours brings that
figure down to $12,920 ($50 x 100 + $33 x 12 x 20).

[Mike Isaksen]

"Michael" wrote...
> "BillJ" wrote in message
>> now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
> Why would it be a typo?
>
> Look at it this way.... <snipped>

I like a good rationalization as much as the next guy, but my Club pays 3300
for a mid 70's Beech Sport and 7200 for a 2000 Piper Archer, at max
available limits. So I also am thinking typo.

[Barney Rubble]

Yep it has to be a typo. Club around here pays about 3200 for 197x C182 with
14 members.

"Michael" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 21, 9:38 am, "Steve Foley" > wrote:
> "BillJ" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> says rates
>
> > (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
> Is that a typo?

Why would it be a typo?

Look at it this way. The average private airplane flies about 26
hours per year (that includes partnerships but not clubs, AFAIK, and
the number is a few years old so I imagine it is less now). The
median is lower still, because you can't go to less than zero but
there are quite a few of us in the 100-200 hour range.

Back before I maxed everything, I used to get a small discount for
flying over 100 hours a year. Not a huge one, but it was something.
Think about that. The plane is flying 4 times as much as average
(probably 5x to 6x the median) and yet the overall premium (and thus
the overall risk) is less. That makes sense - it indicates that
proficiency is more important than exposure, and that's consistent
with other information we have. What is that other information?
Well, we know that personal flying is the most dangerous kind of
flying there is, worse than cropdusting (See any Nall Report), and
that by comparison flight instruction and self-flown business travel
are relatively safe.

So what have we got? Well, we've got 20 pilots, all of them flying
too little, and with access to an IFR airplane. It would honestly be
safer if they were student pilots - then they would be under the
supervision of a CFI and flying regularly. So what's the private rate
on a student pilot in a nice IFR Warrior, full coverage? $1500/yr?
Maybe more? $35000 for 20 pilots who are more dangerous sounds pretty
fair to me.

I know that a flight school local to my old home field was paying well
over $20/plane to insure its fleet, and the average plane int that
fleet was a beat up, piece of crap Warrior that wasn't worth much.
They also had something like $5K or $10K deductibles, which in effect
meant the students and CFI's all had to carry their own insurance.
Once again, the rate seems in line with what's out there.

For a long time, aviation underwriters lost money on club/FBO
policies. It was sort of a genleman's agreement - they had to keep
those places in business to assure a supply of new pilots, who would
become owners and keep the profitable part of the business (personal
aircraft policies) alive. Now that's over, and they're charging what
it takes to make money. That means accepting the reality that a plane
that is flown 250 hours a year by 20 different people is subject to
more than 20 times the risk of loss then a plane that is flown 250
hours a year by one pilot, and should cost more.

Michael

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Barney Rubble" > said:
>Yep it has to be a typo. Club around here pays about 3200 for 197x C182 with
>14 members.

Last year we paid around $13,000 for 4 aircraft including a P32R-300 Lance
and 45 members.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Some days violence is just a nice quick solution to a problem that
would need thought, planning and actual work to do justice to.
-- Wayne Pascoe

[BillJ]

Steve Foley wrote:

> "BillJ" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> says rates
>
>> (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
>
> Is that a typo?
>
>
yep, should be 3500

[BillJ]

Mike Isaksen wrote:
> "Robert Barker" ...
>
>>"Mike Isaksen" ...
>>
>>>"Robert Barker" wrote ...
>>>
>>>> We're currently with AVEMCO.... They impose a limit on
>>>> the # of members we can have per club airplane.
>>>
>>>Do you recall the member count per airplane they set as a limit?
>>>
>>
>>They had several levels with different rates at each level. We're
>>currently limited to 25 members per aircraft.
>
>
> As another followup, 25 (flying and named on policy) members per airplane
> would have seemed unmanageable 10 or 20 years ago. My club meetings turned
> into tirates when we first considered going from 10 to 12 per plane. Now I'm
> seeing member flying hours per year in the single digits, and a club almost
> needs 20 members per just to keep operational hours on the planes above 250
> per year.
>
> What are you guys seeing as the recent numbers coming in from the clubs?
> a. Recent and past "hours per member per year"?
> b. Recent and past "hours per plane per year"?
>
>
Our club with 20 members and 1 IFR Warrior has dropped from 350 to 100
hours in just two years. Rates are $50 per hour +33 per montht, and
need to go up. We are considering going to 25 members. Avemco says rates
(now $3500 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.

[Robert Barker]

"Mike Isaksen" > wrote in message
news:2XNEj.17292$k92.15430@trndny06...
> "Robert Barker" ...
>> "Mike Isaksen" ...
>>>
>>> "Robert Barker" wrote ...
>>>> We're currently with AVEMCO.... They impose a limit on
>>>> the # of members we can have per club airplane.
>>>
>>> Do you recall the member count per airplane they set as a limit?
>>>
>> They had several levels with different rates at each level. We're
>> currently limited to 25 members per aircraft.
>
> As another followup, 25 (flying and named on policy) members per airplane
> would have seemed unmanageable 10 or 20 years ago. My club meetings turned
> into tirates when we first considered going from 10 to 12 per plane. Now
> I'm seeing member flying hours per year in the single digits, and a club
> almost needs 20 members per just to keep operational hours on the planes
> above 250 per year.
>
> What are you guys seeing as the recent numbers coming in from the clubs?
> a. Recent and past "hours per member per year"?
> b. Recent and past "hours per plane per year"?
>

We're a fairly new club. Of our 75 or so members, up to 25 of them are
primary students (myself included). That being the case, our 172s see 50hrs
or more per month. Our DA40 is only seeing 20 or so. It's kind of a catch
22. We'd like more members to warrant another aircraft but can't get
another aircraft without more meembers to pay for it. As a new club, we'd
rather not take the gamble just yet.

[Robert Barker]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:1TOEj.1$rb6.0@trnddc01...
> "BillJ" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> says rates
>> (now $35000 will go up 10% if we do, but not until next renewal.
>
> Is that a typo?
>
>

Based on what we're paying for our club, it's not a typo - hence our
shopping around...

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 21, 8:43*pm, "Robert Barker" > wrote:
> Based on what we're paying for our club, it's not a typo - hence our
> shopping around...

Shop around while you can. There are still deals to be had - though
usually only for clubs that have been around for a while and have an
attractive loss history.

The analysis I posted (call it rationalization if you like) was mostly
to give you an idea of what is already here for some people - and what
is coming across the board.

Michael