New Special Airworthiness Cert -- what goes into it?

[Tuno]

From the Designated Airworthiness Representative's perspective, just
what goes into getting a new Special Airworthiness Certificate,
Experimental Exhibition/Racing, for a glider?

I spoke with a DAR in Phoenix yesterday and explained to him that I
have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory
flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
he first quoted for a standard C of A.

I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
are they missing?)

~ted/2NO

[Papa3]

On Mar 22, 1:00*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> From the Designated Airworthiness Representative's perspective, just
> what goes into getting a new Special Airworthiness Certificate,
> Experimental Exhibition/Racing, for a glider?
>
> I spoke with a DAR in Phoenix yesterday and explained to him that I
> have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory
> flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
> described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
> was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
> gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
> he first quoted for a standard C of A.
>
> I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> are they missing?)
>
> ~ted/2NO

When I did my most recent one in 2000, the Designee charged me about
$200. He had all the appropriate forms ready to go, and we were done
with the whole thing in about 2 hours including lunch. IIRC, the
extra effort goes into the Operating Limitations document itself,
which is pretty much boilerplate from the FAAs advisory circular and
forms that all the DARs should have.

I can't think of what else should lead to tripling the price.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3

[[email protected]]

On Mar 22, 1:04*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Mar 22, 1:00*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > From the Designated Airworthiness Representative's perspective, just
> > what goes into getting a new Special Airworthiness Certificate,
> > Experimental Exhibition/Racing, for a glider?
>
> > I spoke with a DAR in Phoenix yesterday and explained to him that I
> > have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory
> > flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
> > described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
> > was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
> > gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
> > he first quoted for a standard C of A.
>
> > I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> > not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> > are they missing?)
>
> > ~ted/2NO
>
> When I did my most recent one in 2000, the Designee charged me about
> $200. *He had all the appropriate forms ready to go, and we were done
> with the whole thing in about 2 hours including lunch. * IIRC, the
> extra effort goes into the Operating Limitations document itself,
> which is pretty much boilerplate from the FAAs advisory circular and
> forms that all the DARs should have.
>
> I can't think of what else should lead to tripling the price.
>
> Erik Mann
> LS8-18 P3- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How about greed?

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:

>> When I did my most recent one in 2000, the Designee charged me about
>> $200. He had all the appropriate forms ready to go, and we were done
>> with the whole thing in about 2 hours including lunch. IIRC, the
>> extra effort goes into the Operating Limitations document itself,
>> which is pretty much boilerplate from the FAAs advisory circular and
>> forms that all the DARs should have.
>>
>> I can't think of what else should lead to tripling the price.
>>
>> Erik Mann
>
> How about greed?

Perhaps he has never done an experimental glider before, so he expects
it's going to take some time to find out what to do. He quotes a price
that makes it worth the extra time and effort.

It might worth asking if he's done it before, and if he hasn't, offer to
have someone who has done it to give him a call, explain what's needed,
and assure him it's not near as bad as he thinks.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Raphael Warshaw]

A little less than two years ago, I moved my ship's registration from
the Scottsdale FSDO to the Burbank FSDO after Scottsdale refused my
program letter update. I had assumed that this would require nothing
more than sending the program letter update to Burbank, but they made
me go through the entire process as though it was a new ship and
issued a brand-new COA. Getting the new COA required dealing with two
different FSDO employees. There were drafts, final papers and then
corrections and updates. When it was time for the inspection, both of
them turned up at Cal City and took half a day (I have no idea why
since they spent most of the time in private discussions with each
other. Both in Scottsdale and in Burbank, I dealt only with FSDO
personnel, not a DAR, and there was no cost other than lost time.

When I moved from California to New Jersey, I assumed that there would
be considerable hassle, but the Teterboro folks just asked for copies
of the Burbank paperwork and, a few weeks later, a new registration
appeared from Oklahoma. I have the Burbank paperwork in digital form
and would be happy to send it to you when I get home on Monday if it
will help to explain things to your DAR. Jim Skydel registered a ship
with Burbank a few weeks before I did and having his paperwork and the
benefit of his experience was a great help.

BTW, my dealings with the Scottsdale FSDO in 2001 and the Teterboro
FSDO in 2007 were efficient and pleasant, Burbank less so.

Ray Warshaw
1LK





> have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory
> flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
> described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
> was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
> gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
> he first quoted for a standard C of A.
>
> I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> are they missing?)
>
> ~ted/2NO

[raulb]

On Mar 22, 10:00*am, Tuno > wrote:
> From the Designated Airworthiness Representative's perspective, just
> what goes into getting a new Special Airworthiness Certificate,
> Experimental Exhibition/Racing, for a glider?
>
These are insane stories.

A friend wanted to get a Danish registered K-8 re-registered in the
US. A DAR told him it would cost $1800, which is more than the glider
cost, imported!

He got a friend of a friend who worked at the FAA in Reno to do the
job (less the airworthiness inspection and W&B) for just the paperwork
costs.

When I brought in a French registered LS-1, I had the same guy do the
job and it cost me just the paperwork costs (not including the
inspection).

All we needed was to get our ducks in a row first, do the paperwork,
have an AI do an airworthiness inspect & do a W&B, take the gliders to
Reno from Tehachapi, and Bob's your uncle.

It is not brain surgery. A trained monkey can do the job.

DARs are a racket. They are retired FAA inspectors. You are not a
retired FAA inspector? You can't be a DAR. It is a license for
retired FAA inspectors to print money.


> I spoke with a DAR in Phoenix yesterday and explained to him that I
> have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory
> flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
> described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
> was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
> gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
> he first quoted for a standard C of A.
>
> I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> are they missing?)
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Papa3]

On Mar 22, 4:38*pm, Raphael Warshaw > wrote:
> > > I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> > not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> > are they missing?)
>
> > ~ted/2NO- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I just spoke with Richard Kellerman, our Region II director who went
through the process yesterday with the Harrisburg FSDO. He said his
experience was absolutely painless; the inspector was pleasant,
efficient, and knowledgeable. The whole thing was done in under two
hours for free.

So, it goes back to the old story about the FAA. Your experience
will be pretty much directly related to the individuals you are
dealing with. I'd suggest finding someone else who has had a good
experience and tracking down that person, whether a Designee or an FAA
employee.

BTW, the Designee I worked with worked for a firm which installs long-
range fuel tank modifications on 737s and 757s. So, he'd been
through the hoops in a big way. I guess it pays to find someone
who isn't phased by the process.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 22, 3:59*pm, raulb > wrote:

> DARs are a racket. *They are retired FAA inspectors. *You are not a
> retired FAA inspector? *You can't be a DAR. *It is a license for
> retired FAA inspectors to print money.

Can you substantiate any of that?

A simple web search for DAR qualification requirements seems to
indicate that experience as an FAA inspector is just one of several
qualifying experience requirements.


Andy

[Raphael Warshaw]

On Mar 22, 4:38*pm, Raphael Warshaw > wrote:
> A little less than two years ago, I moved my ship's registration from
> the Scottsdale FSDO to the Burbank FSDO after Scottsdale refused my
> program letter update. *I had assumed that this would require nothing
> more than sending the program letter update to Burbank, but they made
> me go through the entire process as though it was a new ship and
> issued a brand-new COA. *Getting the new COA required dealing with two
> different FSDO employees. *There were drafts, final papers and then
> corrections and updates. *When it was time for the inspection, both of
> them turned up at Cal City and took half a day (I have no idea why
> since they spent most of the time in private discussions with each
> other. *Both in Scottsdale and in Burbank, I dealt only with FSDO
> personnel, not a DAR, and there was no cost other than lost time.
>
> When I moved from California to New Jersey, I assumed that there would
> be considerable hassle, but the Teterboro folks just asked for copies
> of the Burbank paperwork and, a few weeks later, a new registration
> appeared from Oklahoma. *I have the Burbank paperwork in digital form
> and would be happy to send it to you when I get home on Monday if it
> will help to explain things to your DAR. Jim Skydel registered a ship
> with Burbank a few weeks before I did and having his paperwork and the
> benefit of his experience was a great help.
>
> BTW, my dealings with the Scottsdale FSDO in 2001 and the Teterboro
> FSDO in 2007 were efficient and pleasant, Burbank less so.
>
> Ray Warshaw
> 1LK
>
>
>
The California FSDO I used was Van Nuys, not Burbank. The two towns
tend to run together in my ancient brain. Sorry for any confusion.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Ray

> > have a brand new glider, now registered with the FAA, it has a factory

> > flight test and Export C of A from Germany, and I need the C of A
> > described above. He told me that because it was *experimental*, there
> > was a whole lot more work for him to do, a lot of information
> > gathering and paperwork, and it would cost $650, instead of the $200
> > he first quoted for a standard C of A.
>
> > I thought this would be a simple inspection and a little paperwork,
> > not more than 1 or 2 hours of their time. What am I missing? (Or, what
> > are they missing?)
>
> > ~ted/2NO- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Tuno]

> Can you substantiate any of that?

I can!

I have now spoken with 4 DARs in Arizona. All of them are retired FAA
inspectors. The lowest quote I got was $450 plus expenses. For what
should be an hour or two of work.

Bending over and grabbing the ankles,

2NO (somewhere on I-10 east of Willcox, Gollywomper II in tow)

[[email protected]]

On Mar 25, 1:04�pm, Tuno > wrote:
> > Can you substantiate any of that?
>
> I can!
>
> I have now spoken with 4 DARs in Arizona. All of them are retired FAA
> inspectors. The lowest quote I got was $450 plus expenses. For what
> should be an hour or two of work.
>
> Bending over and grabbing the ankles,
>
> 2NO (somewhere on I-10 east of Willcox, Gollywomper II in tow)

Ted, my 29 ran me $500 thur a DAR from El Paso who drove up to
Alamogordo to do it. He's not retired from the FAA either, as he's in
his late 20's. Chris used the same DAR from El Paso who charged him I
believe $750 for his new D2b.
My 27 in 02 ran me $250 and he was retired from Delta and a DAR.
All of them wanted the plane assembled and did look it over. It took
around 3 hrs and maybe closer to 4 hrs for everything to be done. The
29 has several pages of limitations and also I had to fly it in the
local area for 3 flights and 10 hrs. before I could go Hobbs for the
18 Meter Nationals in 06. Considering the cost of a new 29 and the
bucks you have to make to get one, I think the charges are within
reason.
Most important thing is get one lined up now so you don't get trapped
and not be able to fly it this summer.
If I can offer anymore help, email me and lets talk.
Regards, # 711.