Sporting Code Question

[Gary Emerson]

I've peered into the code, but I'm not 100% sure about this.

Say I declare a straight flight to a Goal. Start point and Goal are
declared. The definition of "Goal" is a "finish point specified in
Declaration". Does that mean any flight beyond that point is moot? Or,
is that the finish point for the declared task, but flight beyond that
may still count for a "free" task?????

Assume I make the Goal, and the day is still going, could I continue
from the Goal in any direction I wanted to towards a landing point and
claim records/badges for flights beyond the declared "Goal"?

In particular, say distance to my goal is 500k and then I go another
500k to a landing (or GPS logged fix) would I have earned my 1000k?

Thanks in advance...

Gary

[Darryl Ramm]

On Mar 23, 3:29 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> I've peered into the code, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
>
> Say I declare a straight flight to a Goal. Start point and Goal are
> declared. The definition of "Goal" is a "finish point specified in
> Declaration". Does that mean any flight beyond that point is moot? Or,
> is that the finish point for the declared task, but flight beyond that
> may still count for a "free" task?????
>
> Assume I make the Goal, and the day is still going, could I continue
> from the Goal in any direction I wanted to towards a landing point and
> claim records/badges for flights beyond the declared "Goal"?
>
> In particular, say distance to my goal is 500k and then I go another
> 500k to a landing (or GPS logged fix) would I have earned my 1000k?
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> Gary

For all you are asking the answer is yes.

Of course my interpretation is not the official word, and assuming
your USA email address means you are asking for the USA, then ask Judy
at the SSA. Contact details on the Soaring Achievement section of the
SSA website.

Darryl

[Dan[_4_]]

On Mar 23, 6:29*pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> I've peered into the code, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
>
> Say I declare a straight flight to a Goal. *Start point and Goal are
> declared. *The definition of "Goal" is a "finish point specified in
> Declaration". *Does that mean any flight beyond that point is moot? Or,
> is that the finish point for the declared task, but flight beyond that
> may still count for a "free" task?????

Once you achieve your Goal, the flight performance is over (GOAL
1.1.14 A FINISH POINT specified in a DECLARATION (see 4.3.3).) But...
I don't think you want to use the term "goal" here!

> Assume I make the Goal, and the day is still going, could I continue
> from the Goal in any direction I wanted to towards a landing point and
> claim records/badges for flights beyond the declared "Goal"?
>
> In particular, say distance to my goal is 500k and then I go another
> 500k to a landing (or GPS logged fix) would I have earned my 1000k?

According to the SC AL 8 valid from 1 Oct 07, by my reading, once you
finish your declaration, your badge flight is over. But, if you
declare your 500k point as a "turn point" instead:
(SC - WAY POINT 1.1.2 A precisely specified point or point feature on
the surface of the earth using a word description and/or a set of
coordinates. A WAY POINT may be a START POINT, a TURN POINT, or a
FINISH POINT and has an associated OBSERVATION ZONE.),
you can then continue your flight performance to a finish point
(SC - FINISH 1.1.11 The end of the SOARING PERFORMANCE. It occurs on:
a. Landing the glider, or
b. Entering the OBSERVATION ZONE of the FINISH POINT, or c. Crossing a
FINISH LINE, or d. Starting an MoP.),
that is, your landing point, then the 1000k diploma should count (if
you satisfy the other requirements), and the 500k leg should count
(under SC 2.0.1 A flight may count towards any badge performance for
which the conditions are fulfilled.).
Note, you can't just use a GPS logged fix - it must be from a fix from
a flight recorder/data logger approved to the level of the badge, and
it must be landing or a declared way point, or starting the means of
propulsion - of these, landing is the easiest (assuming a non-motor
glider). Pedantic, but that's the SC for you...
You would have to do the declaration with the 500k point in as a
turnpoint, and leaving the finish blank, for this to count.

You want to be very careful of the terminology you use, and try to use
the SC terminology, which is very specific, and less forgiving...

Two things - I know little about records, so someone else should chime
in on them; second, you would be very lucky to get the 500k and 1000k
in one flight - good luck!

[Todd]

The previous posts are accurate but it can be the subtleties that get
you. The more general answer is "it depends".

Records and badges both use the same set of rules.

One of the "gotcha" items is, for example, your Diamond GOAL (the
300KM) flight. The 300KM must be (essentially) a "closed course" (out
& return or triangle) But the Diamond DISTANCE flight does not carry
that restriction.

You can, however, achieve a Diamond GOAL and Diamond DISTANCE in a
single flight that is NOT a 500KM triangle! In your example, fly your
300KM triangle then another 200KM to your endpoint. I you prefer to
keep our friends by not having them drive 200KM to retrieve you, you
could fly 100KM to your first TP, then your 300KM triangle, then 100KM
home to achieve the same (In SC terms: A Start Point, (3) TP's, and a
End Point).

Remember, "triangle" is loosely used here. It is really up to (3)
TP's. The "true" FIA triangle only applies to a category or record
flights.

Too confusing? The just fly "Free Distance" flights. But
unfortunately, Free Distance only counts in OLC and record flights.
There are no Free Distance legs in the Badge flights (well, except the
Silver dist, but why land after 50KM on a perfectly good soaring day!)

If you happen to live an an area that is not as geographically or
soaringly challenged as I do, you can fly your 1000KM and never be
more than 170 KM from home. Loosely defined by: Fly north 170KM, then
south 340 KM (passing your Start Point in the middle), then back north
340 KM, then 170 KM south to your start point.

[Gary Emerson]

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 23, 6:29 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
>> I've peered into the code, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
>>
>> Say I declare a straight flight to a Goal. Start point and Goal are
>> declared. The definition of "Goal" is a "finish point specified in
>> Declaration". Does that mean any flight beyond that point is moot? Or,
>> is that the finish point for the declared task, but flight beyond that
>> may still count for a "free" task?????
>
> Once you achieve your Goal, the flight performance is over (GOAL
> 1.1.14 A FINISH POINT specified in a DECLARATION (see 4.3.3).) But...
> I don't think you want to use the term "goal" here!
>
>> Assume I make the Goal, and the day is still going, could I continue
>> from the Goal in any direction I wanted to towards a landing point and
>> claim records/badges for flights beyond the declared "Goal"?
>>
>> In particular, say distance to my goal is 500k and then I go another
>> 500k to a landing (or GPS logged fix) would I have earned my 1000k?
>
> According to the SC AL 8 valid from 1 Oct 07, by my reading, once you
> finish your declaration, your badge flight is over. But, if you
> declare your 500k point as a "turn point" instead:
> (SC - WAY POINT 1.1.2 A precisely specified point or point feature on
> the surface of the earth using a word description and/or a set of
> coordinates. A WAY POINT may be a START POINT, a TURN POINT, or a
> FINISH POINT and has an associated OBSERVATION ZONE.),
> you can then continue your flight performance to a finish point
> (SC - FINISH 1.1.11 The end of the SOARING PERFORMANCE. It occurs on:
> a. Landing the glider, or
> b. Entering the OBSERVATION ZONE of the FINISH POINT, or c. Crossing a
> FINISH LINE, or d. Starting an MoP.),
> that is, your landing point, then the 1000k diploma should count (if
> you satisfy the other requirements), and the 500k leg should count
> (under SC 2.0.1 A flight may count towards any badge performance for
> which the conditions are fulfilled.).
> Note, you can't just use a GPS logged fix - it must be from a fix from
> a flight recorder/data logger approved to the level of the badge, and
> it must be landing or a declared way point, or starting the means of
> propulsion - of these, landing is the easiest (assuming a non-motor
> glider). Pedantic, but that's the SC for you...
> You would have to do the declaration with the 500k point in as a
> turnpoint, and leaving the finish blank, for this to count.
>
> You want to be very careful of the terminology you use, and try to use
> the SC terminology, which is very specific, and less forgiving...
>
> Two things - I know little about records, so someone else should chime
> in on them; second, you would be very lucky to get the 500k and 1000k
> in one flight - good luck!


Thanks for your input. Let me add some additional data for
clarification. I am in the US and the record that I'm after for the
first part of the flight is Straight distance to a Goal. Which is why I
use the word Goal. In the declaration to the FR, there is no
designation as to the second waypoint being the "Goal", only two
waypoints in the declaration. For sake of argument we can call the
first waypoint A (the start point) and the second waypoint B (my "goal"
destination).

I launch, go through A to start the task, and arrive at B later in the
day. I turn around, and go as far back towards A as I can minimizing
the retrieve and if I got really really lucky I land back at A at the
end of the day. For sure, I can fill out a claim for the record of
going from A to B. In this case B is my "Goal". The question is could
I claim my 1000k flight? Additionally, could I claim either an O&R
distance claim or a free distance flight claim where B is one point and
my landing/finish point is a second point?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Mar 23, 5:08 pm, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 6:29 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
>
> > I've peered into the code, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
>
> > Say I declare a straight flight to a Goal. Start point and Goal are
> > declared. The definition of "Goal" is a "finish point specified in
> > Declaration". Does that mean any flight beyond that point is moot? Or,
> > is that the finish point for the declared task, but flight beyond that
> > may still count for a "free" task?????
>
> Once you achieve your Goal, the flight performance is over (GOAL
> 1.1.14 A FINISH POINT specified in a DECLARATION (see 4.3.3).) But...
> I don't think you want to use the term "goal" here!
>
> > Assume I make the Goal, and the day is still going, could I continue
> > from the Goal in any direction I wanted to towards a landing point and
> > claim records/badges for flights beyond the declared "Goal"?
>
> > In particular, say distance to my goal is 500k and then I go another
> > 500k to a landing (or GPS logged fix) would I have earned my 1000k?
>
> According to the SC AL 8 valid from 1 Oct 07, by my reading, once you
> finish your declaration, your badge flight is over. But, if you
> declare your 500k point as a "turn point" instead:
> (SC - WAY POINT 1.1.2 A precisely specified point or point feature on
> the surface of the earth using a word description and/or a set of
> coordinates. A WAY POINT may be a START POINT, a TURN POINT, or a
> FINISH POINT and has an associated OBSERVATION ZONE.),
> you can then continue your flight performance to a finish point
> (SC - FINISH 1.1.11 The end of the SOARING PERFORMANCE. It occurs on:
> a. Landing the glider, or
> b. Entering the OBSERVATION ZONE of the FINISH POINT, or c. Crossing a
> FINISH LINE, or d. Starting an MoP.),
> that is, your landing point, then the 1000k diploma should count (if
> you satisfy the other requirements), and the 500k leg should count
> (under SC 2.0.1 A flight may count towards any badge performance for
> which the conditions are fulfilled.).
> Note, you can't just use a GPS logged fix - it must be from a fix from
> a flight recorder/data logger approved to the level of the badge, and
> it must be landing or a declared way point, or starting the means of
> propulsion - of these, landing is the easiest (assuming a non-motor
> glider). Pedantic, but that's the SC for you...
> You would have to do the declaration with the 500k point in as a
> turnpoint, and leaving the finish blank, for this to count.
>
> You want to be very careful of the terminology you use, and try to use
> the SC terminology, which is very specific, and less forgiving...
>
> Two things - I know little about records, so someone else should chime
> in on them; second, you would be very lucky to get the 500k and 1000k
> in one flight - good luck!

Too much misreading here, next we'll be having people think this is
complicated :-) Most fundamentally, it seems there is an apparent
misunderstanding of "soaring performance" in both the original
question and the reply by Dan. There very clearly can be multiple
"soaring performances" per flight. The soaring performance for a goal
flight is over once you meet the requirements to be in the finish OZ/
pass the finish line etc. etc. Whatever other soaring performances may
happen on that flight have nothing to do with this, except those that
would conflict with the one declaration per flight.

I'm lost as to what is meant about "waypoints" the whole point is the
flight goal is declared as the finish point. You can of course combine
the (at least) 500km diamond distance and the (at least) 300km goal
flights as an 500km or longer goal flight and just meet the sum of all
requirements, and still keep going and get the 1,000km diploma if you
can. My diamond distance flight would have qualified as a 500km+
diamond goal flight but since I'd done an 300km+ goal the day before I
submitted them as two separate flights.

Lets make it simple you don't need to declare a 1000km diploma,
flight. You fly the Diamond goal and you keep on going. Pass 1,000k
and other standard requirements and you get your pat on the back from
the FAI. Again, there is no concept of every other possible badge
award on the flight goes "puff" the moment you flight logger (or
camera) records you are in the finish OZ. It's only over if you land
(or start the engine) at the finish/goal. Combining various badges or
parts of badges that require declared task and those that don't
required into one flights are awfully common. And you don't for
example have to meet your altitude badge or duration requirements in
the flight before you reach the declared finish. At least one of my
badges would not have been granted had this been the case.

For the original questioner - again if your really care about this
take your questions to Judy and get an official response.

Darryl

[Todd]

The rules provide for (i) Start Point (SP), (ii) Up to (3) Turn Points
(TP) and (iii) a Finish Point (FP). The Start Point and Finish Point
MAY be co-located with one of your Turn Points (I.e. the SP, FP and
TP1 are all the same point). For a GOAL flight, the TP's MUST be
flown in the ORDER DECLARED but they do not all have to be used.
Therefore, if you fly from your SP to TP1 you have accomplished your
goal flight. If you continue on to TP2, TP3 FP, then you have also
accomplished that goal flight.