gun discharge in cockpit. [Archive]

C J Campbell[_1_]

March 24th 08, 06:35 PM

On 2008-03-24 10:54:38 -0700, "John T" > said:

> "Steve Foley" > wrote in message
> news:hQRFj.4397$vD1.1955@trndny09
>>
>> Wow!! And the flight crew didn't get sucked out the hole like
>> Goldfinger?
>
> 1. Haha. :)
>
> 2. Think frangible bullets. May not have even been a hole.

The sextant port on the C-130 was bigger than any hole a bullet would
make. I don't think anyone has ever been sucked out of one of those.
Actually, it was just the right size to hold a vacuum cleaner hose, so
if you were at altitude you could vacuum out the cockpit. No one ever
got sucked out the vacuum cleaner hose, either. Come to think of it, no
one gets sucked up into vacuum cleaner hoses on the ground, either.

There was a practical joke you could play on the pilot using the
sextant port, though. You stuck a hard-boiled egg in there. It was a
tight fit. The egg would get sucked out, making a popping noise that
sounded for all the world like a shotgun. Scared the heck out of the
pilot. But USAF, in its infinite wisdom, stopped putting hard-boiled
eggs in the box lunches. I don't know why. :-)

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Darkwing

March 24th 08, 06:42 PM

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
news:2008032411352416807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
> On 2008-03-24 10:54:38 -0700, "John T" >
> said:
>
>> "Steve Foley" > wrote in message
>> news:hQRFj.4397$vD1.1955@trndny09
>>>
>>> Wow!! And the flight crew didn't get sucked out the hole like
>>> Goldfinger?
>>
>> 1. Haha. :)
>>
>> 2. Think frangible bullets. May not have even been a hole.
>
> The sextant port on the C-130 was bigger than any hole a bullet would
> make. I don't think anyone has ever been sucked out of one of those.
> Actually, it was just the right size to hold a vacuum cleaner hose, so if
> you were at altitude you could vacuum out the cockpit. No one ever got
> sucked out the vacuum cleaner hose, either. Come to think of it, no one
> gets sucked up into vacuum cleaner hoses on the ground, either.
>
> There was a practical joke you could play on the pilot using the sextant
> port, though. You stuck a hard-boiled egg in there. It was a tight fit.
> The egg would get sucked out, making a popping noise that sounded for all
> the world like a shotgun. Scared the heck out of the pilot. But USAF, in
> its infinite wisdom, stopped putting hard-boiled eggs in the box lunches.
> I don't know why. :-)
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor
>

Probably to limit the amount of methane gas released by the flight crew.

WingFlaps

March 24th 08, 06:44 PM

On Mar 25, 6:26*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "gatt" > wrote :
>
> >http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplane.
> > 1c4cabd1.html
>
> > Awfer... * *there went that experiment.
>
> > " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
> > discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday,
> > according to a statement released by the airline...."
>
> Oh that's interesting. I have a friend who opted in to that program. Be
> interesting to hear what he thinks about this!
>
Well he obviously had un-holstered it to point it at a terrorist who
was smashing his way into the cockpit! In this case it was obviously
in the pilot's mind and he needs a reality check. Why don't the
airlines consider disabling terrorists by depressurizing ? Knock
everone out, tie up the bad guys and repressurize?

Cheers

gatt[_2_]

March 24th 08, 06:52 PM

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
...

>Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by depressurizing ?
>Knock
>everone out, tie up the bad guys and repressurize?

I suppose switching cabin air to nitrous oxide is out of the question.
"ALLAH ALLAH ALLAaaaaa HAHAHAHAA!!! Oh, you silly Americans are a
riot..."

-c

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 07:12 PM

WingFlaps > wrote in
:

> On Mar 25, 6:26*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote
>>
> ews.com:
>>
>> >http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-
gunonplan
>> >e.
>> > 1c4cabd1.html
>>
>> > Awfer... * *there went that experiment.
>>
>> > " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot
>> > accidentally discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte
>> > Saturday, according to a statement released by the airline...."
>>
>> Oh that's interesting. I have a friend who opted in to that program.
>> Be interesting to hear what he thinks about this!
>>
> Well he obviously had un-holstered it to point it at a terrorist who
> was smashing his way into the cockpit! In this case it was obviously
> in the pilot's mind and he needs a reality check. Why don't the
> airlines consider disabling terrorists by depressurizing ? Knock
> everone out, tie up the bad guys and repressurize?
>

We're not allowed allowed to talk about tactics, but the guys carrying
guns get a pretty good course in hand to hand. The problem with this has
always been the 2%. The idiots that want to carry a gun for all the
wrong reasons or the just plain nuts. The training is desinged to weed
some of them out and to ensure that the guys who are carrying are
competent if it ever comes down to it. No point in carrying a gun if all
that happens is that it ends up stuffed up your own nose.
Still, if it can happen, it will..

Bertie

Denny

March 24th 08, 07:40 PM

He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor

Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
happen...

They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>

denny

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 07:54 PM

Denny > wrote in news:4de068f2-5eb6-48d7-80be-
:

> He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor
>
> Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
> Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
> happen...
>

There are many many better reasons for not carrying on an airpalne,
which is why only a very very small percentage do.

> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>

You can fly a 777?

Bertie

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 24th 08, 08:05 PM

Denny wrote:
> He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor
>
> Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
> Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
> happen...
>
> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>
> denny

An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
are those that have had them and those that will.

Several years ago when I was very active in shooting sports I read a
report that somewhere around 20% of all rounds fired by police officers
were ADs. This includes everything from ADs during cleaning the gun to
rounds fired in the general direction of suspects when the firing
officer didn't really mean to fire.

Darkwing

March 24th 08, 08:21 PM

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> Denny > wrote in news:4de068f2-5eb6-48d7-80be-
> :
>
>> He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor
>>
>> Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
>> Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
>> happen...
>>
>
>
> There are many many better reasons for not carrying on an airpalne,
> which is why only a very very small percentage do.
>
>
>> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
>> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>
>
> You can fly a 777?
>
> Bertie

I've flown it many times on MSFS and according to one poster on here that is
all the training one needs.

JGalban via AviationKB.com

March 24th 08, 08:36 PM

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
>are those that have had them and those that will.
>

I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up, most of my
friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that had
accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up shooting
someone or something by accident.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 08:44 PM

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Denny > wrote in news:4de068f2-5eb6-48d7-80be-
>> :
>>
>>> He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor
>>>
>>> Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
>>> Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
>>> happen...
>>>
>>
>>
>> There are many many better reasons for not carrying on an airpalne,
>> which is why only a very very small percentage do.
>>
>>
>>> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
>>> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>>
>>
>> You can fly a 777?
>>
>> Bertie
>
>
> I've flown it many times on MSFS and according to one poster on here
> that is all the training one needs.
>
>
>

Well, off ya go then! Some of them are hiring. Be sure to show then your
youtube video of your 777 landing in Hong Kong.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 08:47 PM

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in
news:81a68f0dace21@uwe:

> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing.
>>There are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>
> I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up,
> most of my
> friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that
> had accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up
> shooting someone or something by accident.

I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume the
thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside the
chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine. You close
it up, and.it's loaded!

Bertie

Matt W. Barrow

March 24th 08, 08:50 PM

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:81a68f0dace21@uwe...
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
>>are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>
> I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up, most of
> my
> friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that had
> accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up shooting
> someone or something by accident.
>

According to many women, men's guns frequently discharge prematurely.

Dudley Henriques[_2_]

March 24th 08, 09:02 PM

WingFlaps wrote:
> On Mar 25, 6:26 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote :
>>
>>> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplane.
>>> 1c4cabd1.html
>>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday,
>>> according to a statement released by the airline...."
>> Oh that's interesting. I have a friend who opted in to that program. Be
>> interesting to hear what he thinks about this!
>>
> Well he obviously had un-holstered it to point it at a terrorist who
> was smashing his way into the cockpit! In this case it was obviously
> in the pilot's mind and he needs a reality check. Why don't the
> airlines consider disabling terrorists by depressurizing ? Knock
> everone out, tie up the bad guys and repressurize?
>
> Cheers
>
Lawyers!
:-)

--
Dudley Henriques

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 09:20 PM

On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>
> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing.
> >>There are those that have had them and those that will.
>
> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up,
> > most of my
> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that
> > had accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up
> > shooting someone or something by accident.
>
> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume the
> thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside the
> chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine. You close
> it up, and.it's loaded!
>
> Bertie

The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that
the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not
cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the
muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common
sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different
circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the
side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch
the trigger.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the
gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking
into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not
know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun
alone and get help from someone who does.

Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 09:23 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote
>> innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>>
>> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing.
>> >>There are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up,
>> > most of my
>> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones
>> > that had accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually
>> > ended up shooting someone or something by accident.
>>
>> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume the
>> thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside the
>> chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine. You
>> close it up, and.it's loaded!
>>
>> Bertie
>
> The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
> 1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
> This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that
> the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not
> cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the
> muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common
> sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different
> circumstances.
>
> 2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
> When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the
> side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch
> the trigger.
>
> 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
> Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the
> gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking
> into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not
> know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun
> alone and get help from someone who does.
>
> Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

Exactly.

of course, you're determined to kill the whole planet anyway, so
presumably you're exempt form the above

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 09:29 PM

On Mar 24, 5:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote :
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote
> >> innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>
> >> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> >> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing.
> >> >>There are those that have had them and those that will.
>
> >> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up,
> >> > most of my
> >> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones
> >> > that had accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually
> >> > ended up shooting someone or something by accident.
>
> >> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume the
> >> thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside the
> >> chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine. You
> >> close it up, and.it's loaded!
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
> > 1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
> > This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that
> > the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not
> > cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the
> > muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common
> > sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different
> > circumstances.
>
> > 2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
> > When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the
> > side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch
> > the trigger.
>
> > 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
> > Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the
> > gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking
> > into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not
> > know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun
> > alone and get help from someone who does.
>
> > Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>
> Exactly.
>
> of course, you're determined to kill the whole planet anyway, so
> presumably you're exempt form the above
>
> Bertie

I am?

If so, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 09:31 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 24, 5:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote
>> innews:2528b354-36ee-4a83-8adb-

>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote
>> >> innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>>
>> >> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>> >> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up
>> >> >>landing. There are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>> >> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew
>> >> > up, most of my
>> >> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones
>> >> > that had accidental discharges were the same ones that
>> >> > eventually ended up shooting someone or something by accident.
>>
>> >> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume
>> >> the thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside
>> >> the chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine.
>> >> You close it up, and.it's loaded!
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>>
>> > 1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
>> > This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that
>> > the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not
>> > cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where
>> > the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times.
>> > Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different
>> > circumstances.
>>
>> > 2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
>> > When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along
>> > the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not
>> > touch the trigger.
>>
>> > 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
>> > Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if
>> > the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and
>> > looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If
>> > you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s),
>> > leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
>>
>> > Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> of course, you're determined to kill the whole planet anyway, so
>> presumably you're exempt form the above
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I am?
>
> If so, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.
>

Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
All you need is your SUV

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 09:35 PM

On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote :
>
> > On Mar 24, 5:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> Dan > wrote
> >> innews:2528b354-36ee-4a83-8adb-
>
>
>
>
>
> >> om:
>
> >> > On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> >> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote
> >> >> innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>
> >> >> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> >> >> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up
> >> >> >>landing. There are those that have had them and those that will.
>
> >> >> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew
> >> >> > up, most of my
> >> >> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones
> >> >> > that had accidental discharges were the same ones that
> >> >> > eventually ended up shooting someone or something by accident.
>
> >> >> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume
> >> >> the thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside
> >> >> the chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine.
> >> >> You close it up, and.it's loaded!
>
> >> >> Bertie
>
> >> > The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
> >> > 1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
> >> > This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that
> >> > the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not
> >> > cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where
> >> > the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times.
> >> > Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different
> >> > circumstances.
>
> >> > 2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
> >> > When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along
> >> > the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not
> >> > touch the trigger.
>
> >> > 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
> >> > Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if
> >> > the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and
> >> > looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If
> >> > you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s),
> >> > leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
>
> >> > Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>
> >> Exactly.
>
> >> of course, you're determined to kill the whole planet anyway, so
> >> presumably you're exempt form the above
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > I am?
>
> > If so, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.
>
> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
> All you need is your SUV
>
> Bertie

I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
bike).

Dan Mc

Matt W. Barrow

March 24th 08, 09:41 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>> All you need is your SUV
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
> else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
> bike).
>

Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 24th 08, 09:46 PM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in
:

> "Dan" > wrote in message
> news:10969921-aaab-425e-9f04-
...
>> On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>
>>> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>>> All you need is your SUV
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>
>> I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
>> else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
>> bike).
>>
>
> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>

Bwawhawhahwhahwahhwha!

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 09:47 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote
>> innews:7c3b47c5-c436-466d-887d-46e8c19d8333
@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 5:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >> Dan > wrote
>> >> innews:2528b354-36ee-4a83-8adb-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> om:
>>
>> >> > On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >> >> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote
>> >> >> innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>>
>> >> >> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up
>> >> >> >>landing. There are those that have had them and those that
>> >> >> >>will.
>>
>> >> >> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I
>> >> >> > grew up, most of my
>> >> >> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The
>> >> >> > ones that had accidental discharges were the same ones that
>> >> >> > eventually ended up shooting someone or something by
>> >> >> > accident.
>>
>> >> >> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume
>> >> >> the thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok
>> >> >> inside the chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the
>> >> >> magazine. You close it up, and.it's loaded!
>>
>> >> >> Bertie
>>
>> >> > The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>>
>> >> > 1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
>> >> > This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means
>> >> > that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it
>> >> > would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to
>> >> > control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed
>> >> > at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction,
>> >> > depending on different circumstances.
>>
>> >> > 2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
>> >> > When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or
>> >> > along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire,
>> >> > do not touch the trigger.
>>
>> >> > 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
>> >> > Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and,
>> >> > if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action
>> >> > and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of
>> >> > ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect
>> >> > the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone
>> >> > who does.
>>
>> >> > Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>>
>> >> Exactly.
>>
>> >> of course, you're determined to kill the whole planet anyway, so
>> >> presumably you're exempt form the above
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > I am?
>>
>> > If so, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.
>>
>> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>> All you need is your SUV
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
> else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
> bike).
>

ford's as god as.

Bertie
> Dan Mc
>

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 09:51 PM

On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
> >> All you need is your SUV
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
> > else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
> > bike).
>
> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.

Hunh?

Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.

What does Dudley have to do with it?

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 09:58 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> news:10969921-aaab-425e-9f04-

>> ...
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>> >> All you need is your SUV
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
>> > else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
>> > bike).
>>
>> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>
> Hunh?
>
> Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.

Oh yes, I am.

I'm not just any troll, either..

Having said that, I'm an on again off again troll. I used to change my
name when I wasn't trolong, but I got too lazy..
>
> What does Dudley have to do with it?

Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
>

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 10:02 PM

On Mar 24, 5:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> ford's as god as.
>
> Bertie
>
> > Dan Mc

hunh?

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 10:03 PM

On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote :
>
> > On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > wrote:
> >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> >> news:10969921-aaab-425e-9f04-
>
>
>
>
>
> >> ...
>
> >> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
> >> >> All you need is your SUV
>
> >> >> Bertie
>
> >> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
> >> > else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
> >> > bike).
>
> >> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>
> > Hunh?
>
> > Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.
>
> Oh yes, I am.
>
> I'm not just any troll, either..
>
> Having said that, I'm an on again off again troll. I used to change my
> name when I wasn't trolong, but I got too lazy..
>
>
>
> > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>
> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
>
>
> Bertie

Well, I'll talk to you -- but prefer when it's about airplanes. I
think on just about every other topic I'd have to go out and buy an
SUV or two to reach the desired end-state.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 10:08 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote
>> innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-

>> m:
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> >> news:10969921-aaab-425e-9f04-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> ...
>>
>> >> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>> >> >> All you need is your SUV
>>
>> >> >> Bertie
>>
>> >> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and
>> >> > everything else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else
>> >> > (unless I ride a bike).
>>
>> >> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>>
>> > Hunh?
>>
>> > Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.
>>
>> Oh yes, I am.
>>
>> I'm not just any troll, either..
>>
>> Having said that, I'm an on again off again troll. I used to change
>> my name when I wasn't trolong, but I got too lazy..
>>
>>
>>
>> > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>
>> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
>> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Well, I'll talk to you -- but prefer when it's about airplanes. I
> think on just about every other topic I'd have to go out and buy an
> SUV or two to reach the desired end-state.
>

Lucky me.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 10:09 PM

Dan > wrote in news:e2ba86fb-a001-4aa5-9989-aa12e63bb795
@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 24, 5:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> ford's as god as.
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>> > Dan Mc
>
> hunh?
>

never ni= mind..

Bertie

Vaughn Simon

March 24th 08, 10:26 PM

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:81a68f0dace21@uwe...
> The ones that had
> accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up shooting
> someone or something by accident.

Yet again...politics!

Vaughn

Matt W. Barrow

March 24th 08, 10:35 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>> >> All you need is your SUV
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
>> > else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride a
>> > bike).
>>
>> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>
> Hunh?
>
> Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.

No? That's a new one on a lot of people in a lot of groups.

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 24th 08, 10:36 PM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in
:

>
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> news:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
..
> .
>> On Mar 24, 5:41 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
>> wrote:
>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:10969921-aaab-425e-9f04-

>>> m...
>>>
>>> > On Mar 24, 5:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>
>>> >> Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>>> >> All you need is your SUV
>>>
>>> >> Bertie
>>>
>>> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling hay and everything
>>> > else, and a Honda accord for going everywhere else (unless I ride
>>> > a bike).
>>>
>>> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>>
>> Hunh?
>>
>> Maybe lots of things, but a troll, no.
>
> No? That's a new one on a lot of people in a lot of groups.
>
>
>

Not like you'd know what one was anyway.

You're just a sore luser.

Bertie

Matt W. Barrow

March 24th 08, 10:36 PM

On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
> > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>
> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.

And you certainly do you demented POS.

Back to the funny farm with you!

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 24th 08, 10:38 PM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in news:A1WFj.44945
:

> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>> > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>
>> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
>> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
> And you certainly do you demented POS.

I do.
>
> Back to the funny farm with you!
>

Aww, you going to killfile me?

Again?

Bwawahwhahwhahhwhahw!

Bertie

JGalban via AviationKB.com

March 24th 08, 10:51 PM

Vaughn Simon wrote:

>
> Yet again...politics!
>

Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)

A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friends on
hunting trips.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

Jay Maynard

March 24th 08, 11:13 PM

On 2008-03-24, Matt W. Barrow > wrote:
> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.

Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd just
TRIM THEIR QUOTES!

Damn, I sure hope they're not that long-winded and repetitive when talking
to ATC.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 24th 08, 11:20 PM

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-03-24, Matt W. Barrow > wrote:
>> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd
> just TRIM THEIR QUOTES!
>
> Damn, I sure hope they're not that long-winded and repetitive when
> talking to ATC.

I'm always to the point.

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 24th 08, 11:26 PM

On Mar 24, 7:13 pm, Jay Maynard >
wrote:
>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd just
> TRIM THEIR QUOTES!
>
> Damn, I sure hope they're not that long-winded and repetitive when talking
> to ATC.
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.comhttp://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

For the record, I always trim.

Except long winded sigs.

Jay Maynard

March 24th 08, 11:53 PM

On 2008-03-24, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 24, 7:13 pm, Jay Maynard >
> wrote:
>> Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd just
>> TRIM THEIR QUOTES!
> For the record, I always trim.

Um, no. The parent of the message I replied to was one from you that was 80
lines long, and only five were not quoted from the thread. That's why I
included you.

> Except long winded sigs.

Four lines of less than 80 characters, following a separator line consisting
of "-- " (the space counts), has been the Usenet standard for at least two
decades.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 12:13 AM

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-03-24, Dan > wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 7:13 pm, Jay Maynard >
>> wrote:
>>> Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd
>>> just TRIM THEIR QUOTES!
>> For the record, I always trim.
>
> Um, no. The parent of the message I replied to was one from you that
> was 80 lines long, and only five were not quoted from the thread.
> That's why I included you.
>
>> Except long winded sigs.
>
> Four lines of less than 80 characters, following a separator line
> consisting of "-- " (the space counts), has been the Usenet standard
> for at least two decades.

So?

Bertie

Rich Ahrens[_2_]

March 25th 08, 12:32 AM

on 3/24/2008 5:36 PM Matt W. Barrow said the following:
> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>>> What does Dudley have to do with it?
>> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
>> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>
> Back to the funny farm with you!

Not that you'd feed a troll or anything...

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 12:33 AM

"Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> On 2008-03-24, Matt W. Barrow > wrote:
>> Dan, don't feed the troll, even if Dudley does.
>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind Dan or Dudly talking to Bertie - if they'd just
> TRIM THEIR QUOTES!
>
> Damn, I sure hope they're not that long-winded and repetitive when talking
> to ATC.

Unfortunately, some people are, but I would swear on a stack of AIM Manuals
that it isn't Dudley, and probably not even Bertie, but in the latter
case....well, ya' never know.

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 12:35 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:20:04 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 24, 4:47 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote innews:81a68f0dace21@uwe:
>>
>> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing.
>> >>There are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>> > I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up,
>> > most of my
>> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that
>> > had accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up
>> > shooting someone or something by accident.
>>
>> I've never had one. it's pretty simple, really. You just assume the
>> thing is always loaded. always. You open it up and lok inside the
>> chamber, and it's clear. and there is nothing in the magazine. You close
>> it up, and.it's loaded!
>>
>> Bertie
>
>The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
>1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
Agreed

>
>2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Agreed

>
>3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
My wife's is always ready to use. That is whey after sticking my
thumb into the table saw at 4:00 AM I knocked on the door (trying to
unlock it would have been very messy and more than a little difficult)
and hollered "Dear, it's me and a I have a wee bit of a problem" to
prevent from having an even bigger problem.

>Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the

And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger. It's a DAO
with something similar to a double trigger (one within the other)
except pressing the one in the center allows the main trigger to be
pressed. In use you don't feel it or even know it's there.

>Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

Minding and intending have little to do with each other.
If some one broke into our home in the middle of the night I would
deeply regret the resutls of my intentions.

>

Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.
Every time my cousin used to come home we'd burn up a bunch of powder,
usually on silhouette targets. However they had some animated ones as
well. They were sorta like the ones at an arcade except made of very
heavy steel plate. Unfortunately someone had used a *very high
powered rifle on one which left quite a crater. Those 9mm and 45 FMJs
can make a nice U-turn in one of those. One came back and removed
about a two inch strip of hide off the outside of my right leg about
half way between the ankle and knee without ever leaving a mark on the
pant leg. That night I spent some time in the shop making up some
new ones, one inch thick with oil quenched surfaces. A 30-06 or even
300 Win Mag only left scuff marks on those and were deflected down
into the sand. Even some of the big mags only left scuff marks. I'd
imagine some of the black tipped stuff might do more, but you seldom
see any of that now days as it became illegal quite some time back.
>
>Dan Mc
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 12:36 AM

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:81a7bd70c968a@uwe...
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
>>
>> Yet again...politics!
>>
>
> Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>
> A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friends
> on
> hunting trips.
>

I did it once - I was unaware that #8 shot from a 20 gauge could carry
nearly 100 yards.

In any case, the guy I shot deserved it. :~)

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 12:36 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:31:07 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>
>Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.

And tht *stuff* is getting REALLY expensive too.

>All you need is your SUV

So is gas.

>
>Bertie
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 12:41 AM

"Rich Ahrens" > wrote in message
use.com...
> on 3/24/2008 5:36 PM Matt W. Barrow said the following:
>> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>>>> What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
>>> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>>
>> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>>
>> Back to the funny farm with you!
>
> Not that you'd feed a troll or anything...

Not one hundred times for pages and pages...

Eeyore[_2_]

March 25th 08, 12:43 AM

WingFlaps wrote:

> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by depressurizing ?

WHAT terrorists ?

Aren't all the tedious limitations on our freedoms now meant to ensure they don't get on
an airplane or are they entirely useless or were they lying about it (about their
reasons) all along ?

Graham

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 12:43 AM

Roger > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:31:07 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>
> And tht *stuff* is getting REALLY expensive too.

Really? Mine isn't too bad, but I don;t use all that much.
>
>>All you need is your SUV
>
> So is gas.

Doesn't seem to matter to some!

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 12:43 AM

On Mar 24, 8:33 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, some people are, but I would swear on a stack of AIM Manuals
> that it isn't Dudley, and probably not even Bertie, but in the latter
> case....well, ya' never know.

You'd be wrong.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 12:45 AM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in
:

>
> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
> news:81a7bd70c968a@uwe...
>> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yet again...politics!
>>>
>>
>> Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>>
>> A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their
>> friends
>> on
>> hunting trips.
>>
>
> I did it once - I was unaware that #8 shot from a 20 gauge could carry
> nearly 100 yards.
>
> In any case, the guy I shot deserved it. :~)
>

Another lawyer?

Bertie
>

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 12:45 AM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> WingFlaps wrote:
>
>> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>> depressurizing ?
>
> WHAT terrorists ?

So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?

Bertie

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 12:48 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:51:41 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
<u32749@uwe> wrote:

>Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
>>
>> Yet again...politics!
>>
>
> Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>
> A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friends on
>hunting trips.

I won't admit to how I know this, but I can guarantee it's authentic.

Some officers were practicing at a gun club with various firearms
including a 10Ga sawed off. (Impressively noisy and effective at close
range) One was demonstrating his quick draw and managed to poke a
hole in his leg. One in the group gathered round asked the
inevitable, "How could you managed to do something like that ?" The
reply was, "Damned if I know, I reached down grabbed the gun like this
and..." He did it again. Fortunately the damage was not severe but
I'll bet he had that leg propped up for a few days and although he
may have been taking a few pain pills I'll bet it wasn't as painful as
the embarrassment when he went back to work.

>
>John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

gatt[_2_]

March 25th 08, 12:49 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...

> I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling

Heh. Must be the forum. I parsed that as "F-15" and then had to stop to
think of what kind of an airplane an F-150 is....

-c

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 12:49 AM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in
:

>
> "Rich Ahrens" > wrote in message
> use.com...
>> on 3/24/2008 5:36 PM Matt W. Barrow said the following:
>>> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>> Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>>>>> What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>>> Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me
is
>>>> somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>>>
>>> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>>>
>>> Back to the funny farm with you!
>>
>> Not that you'd feed a troll or anything...
>
> Not one hundred times for pages and pages...

Awww, sour grapes.

Bertie
>
>

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 12:50 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:49:01 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:

>"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>>
>http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplane.1c4cabd1.html
>>
>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>
>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to
>a
>> statement released by the airline...."
>>
>>
>>
>> -c
>>
>
>Wow!! And the flight crew didn't get sucked out the hole like Goldfinger?

Doesn't work that way unless the fuselage is already full of cracks.

>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 12:52 AM

"gatt" > wrote in
:

>
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> .
> ..
>
>
>> I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling
>
> Heh. Must be the forum. I parsed that as "F-15" and then had to stop
> to think of what kind of an airplane an F-150 is....

There are several. The most common would be the Rheims built version f the
Cessna 150

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 12:56 AM

On Mar 24, 8:35 pm, Roger > wrote:

> >3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
>
> My wife's is always ready to use. That is whey after sticking my

"Ready to use" is meant to be interpreted in context. A concealed
carry handgun is loaded because it may be used at any time. Therefore
it is being "used" as it is being carried.

> >Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the
>
> And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
> 9mm?
>
The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.

> >Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>
> Minding and intending have little to do with each other.
> If some one broke into our home in the middle of the night I would
> deeply regret the resutls of my intentions.

No kidding. If you haven't worked through the scenarios beforehand,
you'll lose. The preps certainly have no compunction about offing you.

And ignore the old saw about "Dragging the body into the house." You
have heard of forensics?

Best plan is to determine the extent of legal use of deadly force in
your jurisdiction and then plan to that contingency.

> Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.

Then be fast and accurate.

Don't try to lecture me on firearms, Roger. I have more ten times more
hours on ranges than you have hours in your Deb.

Dan Mc

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 01:05 AM

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
> 9mm?
>
> It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
> that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
> When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
> release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
> does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
taking the safety off during the draw.

On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd thumb
off the safty, then call for the bird?

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 01:08 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 24, 8:33 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, some people are, but I would swear on a stack of AIM
>> Manuals
>> that it isn't Dudley, and probably not even Bertie, but in the latter
>> case....well, ya' never know.
>
> You'd be wrong.

That some people are long winded on the radio?

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 01:23 AM

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:43:14 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>Roger > wrote in
:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:31:07 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>>
>> And tht *stuff* is getting REALLY expensive too.
>
>Really? Mine isn't too bad, but I don;t use all that much.

Hey, I remember the days when we could purchase the imported and/or
surplus stuff by the metal can for about what a box costs now.

Of course back in those days you could go out and purchase a 20 mm,
make a rifle out of it, purchase the HE rounds and make lots of
noise. That is IF you could afford the gun and ammo. Now that stuff
was expensive back then even in today's dollars.

I purchased a dozen 45's for less than $20 each still in the
cosmaline. (Those I could afford) Two could have been used for
competition, most were so, so (average more or less) and with the last
two you'd have been lucky to hit the floor holding one over the side
of a chair and pointed down.

>>
>>>All you need is your SUV
>>
>> So is gas.
>
>Doesn't seem to matter to some!

I can afford it, but I'm trying to be a bit conservative and drive my
wife's hybrid.
OK, so I'm cheap.<:-))

>
>Bertie
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Matt Whiting

March 25th 08, 01:30 AM

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Denny wrote:
>> He is an idiot - res ipsa loquitor
>>
>> Ahh but, the antigun fanatics will be foaming at the mouth...
>> Better a plane be hijacked daily than a single accidental discharge
>> happen...
>>
>> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
>> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>>
>> denny
>
> An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
> are those that have had them and those that will.

I don't buy that. I know several old pilots who completed entire flying
careers (40+ years) without a gear-up landing. I also know several
people who have went a lifetime without accidentally discharging a
firearm. I'm up to 37 years, but I'm still handling guns and flying so
I can't claim victory just yet! :-)

Neither of these events is inevitable.

Matt

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 01:52 AM

On Mar 24, 9:05 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
>
> Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
> appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

The DAO pistol trigger safety has universal acceptance as a "safety,"
thus the wide range of models and calibers employing the trigger
safety.

Please name one range that denies Glock, S&W M&P, or Sig DAK users
shooting privileges.

> When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
> taking the safety off during the draw.

Wait -- you fired "combat" competition with safety on heading into the
scenario? Were you shooting a 1911? Otherwise, so many models have
such cumbersome safeties (the Berretta 9mm M9, for example), that it's
only useful as a sop to the easily frightened.

If you did as you say, you'll know that Jeff Cooper advocated cocked
and locked, Condition 1 carry with a 1911. It doesn't get any closer
to ready to fire than this setup.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 02:10 AM

Roger > wrote in
:

>
> Hey, I remember the days when we could purchase the imported and/or
> surplus stuff by the metal can for about what a box costs now.

Yeah, And I paid 1750 for my first airplane with a fresh overhaul and rags!

>
> Of course back in those days you could go out and purchase a 20 mm,
> make a rifle out of it, purchase the HE rounds and make lots of
> noise. That is IF you could afford the gun and ammo. Now that stuff
> was expensive back then even in today's dollars.
>
Huh?
You lost me there.

> I purchased a dozen 45's for less than $20 each still in the
> cosmaline. (Those I could afford) Two could have been used for
> competition, most were so, so (average more or less) and with the last
> two you'd have been lucky to hit the floor holding one over the side
> of a chair and pointed down.

Cool.
>
>>>
>>>>All you need is your SUV
>>>
>>> So is gas.
>>
>>Doesn't seem to matter to some!
>
> I can afford it, but I'm trying to be a bit conservative and drive my
> wife's hybrid.
> OK, so I'm cheap.<:-))

And do you find it does well in fuel comsumption?

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 02:11 AM

On Mar 24, 8:49 pm, "gatt" > wrote:
>
> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling
>
> Heh. Must be the forum. I parsed that as "F-15" and then had to stop to
> think of what kind of an airplane an F-150 is....

Hard to haul hay in an F-15.

By the time you git where yer goin it's all blowed off!

Dan Mc

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 02:31 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 24, 9:05 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>>
>> Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
>> appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).
>
> The DAO pistol trigger safety has universal acceptance as a "safety,"
> thus the wide range of models and calibers employing the trigger
> safety.

The Glock, Sig, Revolvers, etc., are considered to have an appropriate
safety.
>
> Please name one range that denies Glock, S&W M&P, or Sig DAK users
> shooting privileges.

Re-read my statement.

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 03:41 AM

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>Roger > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> Hey, I remember the days when we could purchase the imported and/or
>> surplus stuff by the metal can for about what a box costs now.
>
>Yeah, And I paid 1750 for my first airplane with a fresh overhaul and rags!
My first car (56 Ford with a police interceptor engine @$1250) the
next was a new 62 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible with read leather
interior ~5600# and cost $3,600. First house in 61 was $11,000 and
about the size of this one.
>
>>
>> Of course back in those days you could go out and purchase a 20 mm,
>> make a rifle out of it, purchase the HE rounds and make lots of
>> noise. That is IF you could afford the gun and ammo. Now that stuff
>> was expensive back then even in today's dollars.
>>

>Huh?
>You lost me there.

The price that stuff went for then, would be expensive at that price
today and my pension alone is multiples of what I made back then.

I think G&A magazine paid something like $75 each for the HE rounds
they used in a write up on a rifle made from a 20mm cannon and used a
Hydrocoil (sp?) stock..

>
>> I purchased a dozen 45's for less than $20 each still in the
>> cosmaline. (Those I could afford) Two could have been used for
>> competition, most were so, so (average more or less) and with the last
>> two you'd have been lucky to hit the floor holding one over the side
>> of a chair and pointed down.

Says a lot for the quality control back then.

I had two Colt Pythons with the Pacmyer (sp?) grips. I shot 5 boxes of
heavy loads at metal silhouettes at the range one day. I had two boxes
of High velocity hollow points and was only hitting about 1 our of 5.
The guy with me said he knew I shot better than that and gave me a
couple boxes of 220 grain semi wad cutters. He had them loaded for a
Thompson Contender single shot with a long barrel. All the hide
peeled off the inside of my right hand. Man, but that was one big
blister and GAWD it was sore! <:-)) But I was hitting about 4 out of
5 or a tad better with those loads. Those HV HPs were good for short
range only. I was actually doing about as well on sheep at 125
yards. We'd watch the condensation ball through the spotting scope.
When you could actually see the bullet's location it was amazing how
long it took to get to the target.

>
>
>Cool.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>All you need is your SUV
>>>>
>>>> So is gas.
>>>
>>>Doesn't seem to matter to some!
>>
>> I can afford it, but I'm trying to be a bit conservative and drive my
>> wife's hybrid.
>> OK, so I'm cheap.<:-))
>
>And do you find it does well in fuel comsumption?

46 to 47 MPG with a mix of highway and city driving out here in the
flat lands. Expressway drops to about 45.
>
IF traffic permitted driving for mileage. IE...coasting up to stops,
gradual acceleration, planning your speeds like we do approaches, it
could easily get well over 50. However in today's driving world
they'd probably be hunting up your next of kin after the first hour of
driving like that.
>
>Bertie
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dave S

March 25th 08, 04:06 AM

Darkwing wrote:
But USAF, in
>> its infinite wisdom, stopped putting hard-boiled eggs in the box lunches.
>> I don't know why. :-)
>>
>> --
>> Waddling Eagle
>> World Famous Flight Instructor
>>
>
> Probably to limit the amount of methane gas released by the flight crew.
>
>

And solids too.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 04:31 AM

Roger > wrote in
:

> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>Roger > wrote in
:
>>
>>>
>>> Hey, I remember the days when we could purchase the imported and/or
>>> surplus stuff by the metal can for about what a box costs now.
>>
>>Yeah, And I paid 1750 for my first airplane with a fresh overhaul and
>>rags!
> My first car (56 Ford with a police interceptor engine @$1250) the
> next was a new 62 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible with read leather
> interior ~5600# and cost $3,600. First house in 61 was $11,000 and
> about the size of this one.
>>
>>>
>>> Of course back in those days you could go out and purchase a 20 mm,
>>> make a rifle out of it, purchase the HE rounds and make lots of
>>> noise. That is IF you could afford the gun and ammo. Now that
>>> stuff was expensive back then even in today's dollars.
>>>
>
>>Huh?
>>You lost me there.
>
> The price that stuff went for then, would be expensive at that price
> today and my pension alone is multiples of what I made back then.
>
> I think G&A magazine paid something like $75 each for the HE rounds
> they used in a write up on a rifle made from a 20mm cannon and used a
> Hydrocoil (sp?) stock..
>
>>
>>> I purchased a dozen 45's for less than $20 each still in the
>>> cosmaline. (Those I could afford) Two could have been used for
>>> competition, most were so, so (average more or less) and with the
>>> last two you'd have been lucky to hit the floor holding one over the
>>> side of a chair and pointed down.
>
> Says a lot for the quality control back then.
>
> I had two Colt Pythons with the Pacmyer (sp?) grips. I shot 5 boxes of
> heavy loads at metal silhouettes at the range one day. I had two boxes
> of High velocity hollow points and was only hitting about 1 our of 5.
> The guy with me said he knew I shot better than that and gave me a
> couple boxes of 220 grain semi wad cutters. He had them loaded for a
> Thompson Contender single shot with a long barrel. All the hide
> peeled off the inside of my right hand. Man, but that was one big
> blister and GAWD it was sore! <:-)) But I was hitting about 4 out of
> 5 or a tad better with those loads. Those HV HPs were good for short
> range only. I was actually doing about as well on sheep at 125
> yards. We'd watch the condensation ball through the spotting scope.
> When you could actually see the bullet's location it was amazing how
> long it took to get to the target.
>
>>
>>
>>Cool.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>All you need is your SUV
>>>>>
>>>>> So is gas.
>>>>
>>>>Doesn't seem to matter to some!
>>>
>>> I can afford it, but I'm trying to be a bit conservative and drive
>>> my wife's hybrid.
>>> OK, so I'm cheap.<:-))
>>
>>And do you find it does well in fuel comsumption?
>
> 46 to 47 MPG with a mix of highway and city driving out here in the
> flat lands. Expressway drops to about 45.
>>
> IF traffic permitted driving for mileage. IE...coasting up to stops,
> gradual acceleration, planning your speeds like we do approaches, it
> could easily get well over 50. However in today's driving world
> they'd probably be hunting up your next of kin after the first hour of
> driving like that.

Yipes! Making your own gun out of a cannon? You must have impresses the
other kids!

Bertie

Ron Garret

March 25th 08, 05:09 AM

In article >,
Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> Eeyore > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> >
> > WingFlaps wrote:
> >
> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
> >> depressurizing ?
> >
> > WHAT terrorists ?
>
> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?

Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That would
be more than one hijacking a month.)

rg

Jim Logajan

March 25th 08, 05:26 AM

Ron Garret > wrote:
> In article >,
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Eeyore > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > WingFlaps wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>> >> depressurizing ?
>> >
>> > WHAT terrorists ?
>>
>> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?
>
> Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That would
> be more than one hijacking a month.)

I'm glad someone else asked. ;-)

The implicit context appeared to be U.S. registered aircraft and I didn't
know that many had been hijacked since 2001! Maybe worldwide there might
have been that many - but that still seems high. Maybe Bertie is including
boats and/or cars? (Geez, could they hijack trains too? I could see how the
authorities would have a hard time tracking down a hijacked train. ;-))

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 05:45 AM

Ron Garret > wrote in news:rNOSPAMon-
:

> In article >,
> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Eeyore > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > WingFlaps wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>> >> depressurizing ?
>> >
>> > WHAT terrorists ?
>>
>> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?
>
> Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
would
> be more than one hijacking a month.)
>

Yeah, that's exactly how many there have been. We had to do our annual
security course a few weeks ago and we had to guess how many theyre had
been worldwide. First guess was none, then, one or two were remembered
so we guessed three. The instructor illuminated us. Most were in South
America or Africa, but a substantial number weren't...

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 05:47 AM

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> Ron Garret > wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>>> Eeyore > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > WingFlaps wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>>> >> depressurizing ?
>>> >
>>> > WHAT terrorists ?
>>>
>>> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?
>>
>> Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
>> would be more than one hijacking a month.)
>
> I'm glad someone else asked. ;-)
>
> The implicit context appeared to be U.S. registered aircraft and I
> didn't know that many had been hijacked since 2001! Maybe worldwide
> there might have been that many - but that still seems high. Maybe
> Bertie is including boats and/or cars? (Geez, could they hijack trains
> too? I could see how the authorities would have a hard time tracking
> down a hijacked train. ;-))
>

Nope, just airplanes. Most were criminal enterprises. ( ransome) some
were asylum seekers and some were disgruntled employees.

Scary eh?

Bertie

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 08:45 AM

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:31:29 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>Roger > wrote in
:
>
>> On T<snip>
>>>And do you find it does well in fuel comsumption?
>>
>> 46 to 47 MPG with a mix of highway and city driving out here in the
>> flat lands. Expressway drops to about 45.
>>>
>> IF traffic permitted driving for mileage. IE...coasting up to stops,
>> gradual acceleration, planning your speeds like we do approaches, it
>> could easily get well over 50. However in today's driving world
>> they'd probably be hunting up your next of kin after the first hour of
>> driving like that.
>
>Yipes! Making your own gun out of a cannon? You must have impresses the
>other kids!
>

No, not me. I couldn't have afforded the ammunition let anone be
strong enough to carry the thing.

I do believe there is a current bolt action available that uses the 50
CAl though. Don't think I could handle either the recoil or price
on that one either, although I could afford the ammunition. Can you
imagine how that thing must kick?

>
>Bertie
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger[_4_]

March 25th 08, 09:28 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:05:43 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
> wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
>> 9mm?
>>
>> It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
>> that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
>> When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
>> release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
>> does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.
>
>Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an

In a way a revolver does as it must be cocked for single action and
takes a hefty trigger pull in double action unless it's been reworked.
OTOH the DAO Glock as well as the H&Ks only have about a 2 to 2.5#
pull. I don't remember if the H&K does but the Glock does not have a
true safety except that little mechanism in the center of the trigger.
It does not have a grip safety either. Both are standard issue law
enforcement arms so you will find many on local ranges.
Unlike the old 45 or even S&W 45 these are carried with a round in the
chamber.

>appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).
>
>When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
>taking the safety off during the draw.

Combat is an entirely different game including changing magazines. In
the old days they'd only let us use 45s, now I believe the 9mm and 40
cal are both permitted.

>
>On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd thumb
>off the safty, then call for the bird?

You are unlikely to find a shotgun with a safety on a trap range
although a few Over and unders *may* have them.. The operation is
rigidly controlled. On a trap field you have 5 shooters basically
side by side and about 12 feet apart (I forget the specific distance
on the 16 yard line. Handicap is done a far back as 27 yards from the
trap house). You stand in position with the barrel pointed down range
and the action open. Shooting is done in rotation, 5 shots (one at a
time in rotation) from each position. When it comes your turn to
shoot and only then (regardless of the type of action) you place a
round in the chamber, close the action, mount the shotgun to your
shoulder and then call for a target.

Close an action when it's not your turn to shoot and you will be
escorted off the range. You may also lose your membership in the state
or national organization and without that you can't shoot. There is a
lot of money involved in trap shooting, in entrance fees, shells, and
fees for shooting for "the money". There's too much money at stake to
throw it all away.
by not playing by the rules. It's quite easy to have between $300 and
$500 invested in *each* event. 16 yard events usually consist of two
100 target events combined while handicap events are normally 100
targets each.

I've competed, coached, and played range officer, just not all at the
same time.

In the case of doubles where two clay targets are thrown at the same
time you do load two shells, but again the action is not closed until
it's your turn to shoot. Most doubles are shot with over and under
double barrels. A few opt for the much less expensive semi autos and
pumps, but they are by far in the minority. Few are willing to risk a
malfunction. For singles the old Winchester model 12 pump is by far
the most popular used as a single shot. That is what I used for 16
yard and handicap. Modified choke for 16 and full for 25 yards and
back. I've put well over 200,000 shells through that old shotgun.

There are some very expensive and fantastic shotgun sets available.
They come with the stock and action, plus at least three different
length single shot barrels and one or two sets of over and under
double barrels. (different chokes) some have interchangeable chokes.
I've not seen one of these sets that even had a provision for a
safety. I'd love one of those sets just to have it although I no
longer compete.

>
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Eeyore[_2_]

March 25th 08, 09:29 AM

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

> Jim Logajan > wrote
> > Ron Garret wrote:
> >> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> >>> Eeyore wrote
> >>> > WingFlaps wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
> >>> >> depressurizing ?
> >>> >
> >>> > WHAT terrorists ?
> >>>
> >>> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?
> >>
> >> Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
> >> would be more than one hijacking a month.)
> >
> > I'm glad someone else asked. ;-)
> >
> > The implicit context appeared to be U.S. registered aircraft and I
> > didn't know that many had been hijacked since 2001! Maybe worldwide
> > there might have been that many - but that still seems high. Maybe
> > Bertie is including boats and/or cars? (Geez, could they hijack trains
> > too? I could see how the authorities would have a hard time tracking
> > down a hijacked train. ;-))
> >
>
> Nope, just airplanes. Most were criminal enterprises. ( ransome) some
> were asylum seekers and some were disgruntled employees.
>
> Scary eh?

So not actually TERRORISTS then ?

How about a cite Bertie ?

Graham

a.u.k removed

Eeyore[_2_]

March 25th 08, 09:31 AM

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

> Ron Garret wrote
> > Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> >> Eeyore wrote
> >> > WingFlaps wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
> >> >> depressurizing ?
> >> >
> >> > WHAT terrorists ?
> >>
> >> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard planespoter?
> >
> > Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
> > would be more than one hijacking a month.)
>
>
> Yeah, that's exactly how many there have been. We had to do our annual
> security course a few weeks ago and we had to guess how many theyre had
> been worldwide. First guess was none, then, one or two were remembered
> so we guessed three. The instructor illuminated us. Most were in South
> America or Africa, but a substantial number weren't...

How many were TERRORISTS Bertie ?

And how many were scheduled passenger services ?

Graham

WingFlaps

March 25th 08, 09:43 AM

> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>

Good self control :-) I hope she didn't keep the dress...

Cheers

WingFlaps

March 25th 08, 09:47 AM

On Mar 25, 9:50*am, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in messagenews:81a68f0dace21@uwe...
>
> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> >>An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
> >>are those that have had them and those that will.
>
> > * *I think it's a more a question of attitude. * Where I grew up, most of
> > my
> > friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. * The ones that had
> > accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up shooting
> > someone or something by accident.
>
> According to many women, men's guns frequently discharge prematurely.

Quite right. As my beloved sarge used to tell us, "this is my weapon
and this is my gun. This is for killing and this is for fun"

WingFlaps

March 25th 08, 09:52 AM

On Mar 25, 11:36*am, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> *On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
> > > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>
> > Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
> > somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>

Oooh such anger!
Can you insult me so eloquently too -pretty please?

Cheers

WingFlaps

March 25th 08, 09:53 AM

On Mar 25, 11:51*am, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
> > * Yet again...politics!
>
> * Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>
> * A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friends on
> hunting trips. *
>

Evolution in action?

Cheers

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 11:27 AM

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:43:14 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>Roger > wrote in
:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:31:07 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Think of all the money you're saving on ammo.
>>>
>>> And tht *stuff* is getting REALLY expensive too.
>>
>>Really? Mine isn't too bad, but I don;t use all that much.
>
> Hey, I remember the days when we could purchase the imported and/or
> surplus stuff by the metal can for about what a box costs now.
>
> Of course back in those days you could go out and purchase a 20 mm,
> make a rifle out of it, purchase the HE rounds and make lots of
> noise. That is IF you could afford the gun and ammo. Now that stuff
> was expensive back then even in today's dollars.

I believe you could by a WW2 20mm anti-tank gun for about $80 and a load of
ammo to boot.

(See: John Ross's book "Unintended Consequences" - he has a photo of the
original magazine ad from the early 60's)

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 11:44 AM

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:05:43 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>>> And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
>>> 9mm?
>>>
>>> It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
>>> that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
>>> When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
>>> release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
>>> does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.
>>
>>Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
>
> In a way a revolver does as it must be cocked for single action and
> takes a hefty trigger pull in double action unless it's been reworked.
> OTOH the DAO Glock as well as the H&Ks only have about a 2 to 2.5#
> pull. I don't remember if the H&K does but the Glock does not have a
> true safety except that little mechanism in the center of the trigger.
> It does not have a grip safety either. Both are standard issue law
> enforcement arms so you will find many on local ranges.
> Unlike the old 45 or even S&W 45 these are carried with a round in the
> chamber.
>
>>appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).
>>
>>When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd
>>practice
>>taking the safety off during the draw.
>
> Combat is an entirely different game including changing magazines. In
> the old days they'd only let us use 45s, now I believe the 9mm and 40
> cal are both permitted.
>
>>
>>On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd
>>thumb
>>off the safty, then call for the bird?
>
> You are unlikely to find a shotgun with a safety on a trap range
> although a few Over and unders *may* have them.. The operation is
> rigidly controlled. On a trap field you have 5 shooters basically
> side by side and about 12 feet apart (I forget the specific distance
> on the 16 yard line. Handicap is done a far back as 27 yards from the
> trap house). You stand in position with the barrel pointed down range
> and the action open. Shooting is done in rotation, 5 shots (one at a
> time in rotation) from each position. When it comes your turn to
> shoot and only then (regardless of the type of action) you place a
> round in the chamber, close the action, mount the shotgun to your
> shoulder and then call for a target.

I see...my frame of reference is Sporting Clays and that is with a Browning
Auto. For me, it's just natural to engage the safety until I call the bird
and that's from the "butt low" position. In picturing the sequence in my
mind, I disengage the safety as I call for the target. Even at that, there
can be about a two or three second delay before the target flys/runs.

Now, as to O/U's, I have had my eye on a Beretta 686...

>
> Close an action when it's not your turn to shoot and you will be
> escorted off the range. You may also lose your membership in the state
> or national organization and without that you can't shoot. There is a
> lot of money involved in trap shooting, in entrance fees, shells, and
> fees for shooting for "the money". There's too much money at stake to
> throw it all away.
> by not playing by the rules. It's quite easy to have between $300 and
> $500 invested in *each* event. 16 yard events usually consist of two
> 100 target events combined while handicap events are normally 100
> targets each.
>
> I've competed, coached, and played range officer, just not all at the
> same time.
>
> In the case of doubles where two clay targets are thrown at the same
> time you do load two shells, but again the action is not closed until
> it's your turn to shoot.

Got 'cha!

My point-of-reference is Combat Pistol, and there, when you're next, you
load the weapon (all my combat guns are 1911 based), load a round in the
chamber, holster the weapon, then remove the magazine and add a round to
replace the one you loaded into the chamber.

Then you take your first position, and on the buzzer/timer, you draw
(disengaging the safety in the same move, and begin
shooting/moving/shooting....until the stage is over. It's not uncommon to
shoot 20-30 rounds per stage which means you often do one or two reloads
WHILE YOU'RE MOVING.

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 11:45 AM

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
...
>
>> They should hire me, I've never had an accidental discharge <well,
>> there was that time at the drive in movie, but no one was injured>
>>
>
> Good self control :-) I hope she didn't keep the dress...
>
It was the movie caused the AD, not her. :~o

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 11:46 AM

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 25, 11:36 am, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> > Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
> > > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>
> > Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me is
> > somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>
::
:: Oooh such anger!
:: Can you insult me so eloquently too -pretty please?

Pootyhead!

Matt W. Barrow

March 25th 08, 11:47 AM

"Dave S" > wrote in message
...
> Darkwing wrote:
> But USAF, in
>>> its infinite wisdom, stopped putting hard-boiled eggs in the box
>>> lunches. I don't know why. :-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Waddling Eagle
>>> World Famous Flight Instructor
>>>
>>
>> Probably to limit the amount of methane gas released by the flight crew.
>
> And solids too.

I'd think an AD would INCREASE the release of solids by the flight crew?

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 01:08 PM

On Mar 25, 4:45 am, Roger > wrote:
>
> I do believe there is a current bolt action available that uses the 50
> CAl though. Don't think I could handle either the recoil or price
> on that one either, although I could afford the ammunition. Can you
> imagine how that thing must kick?

Barrett is the name in .50 Caliber bolt actions. The 50 is a supreme
long range caliber, with knock-down power out far past its MER.

I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.

Dan Mc

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 01:31 PM

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> An accidental discharge is very, very much like a gear up landing. There
>> are those that have had them and those that will.
>>
>
> I think it's a more a question of attitude. Where I grew up, most of my
> friends had firearms for hunting and target shooting. The ones that had
> accidental discharges were the same ones that eventually ended up shooting
> someone or something by accident.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

John, how many of the folks you grew up with accidentally shot someone?

Other than the casual shooting I did growing up I fired (intentionally)
~50K rounds of ammo/year for about 5 years in the late 80's & early
90's. Two ADs one was a complete brain fade and I hit the ground 10 feet
in front of me aiming down range. The other was while clearing a jam
finger was off the trigger and the round was fired by hitting the
extractor and not the firing pin. The gun was again pointed in a safe
direction.

I saw about 50 ADs as a range officer and they all were, luckily, fired
in a safe direction. **** does happen. To say it can't happen to you
either means you don't handle guns or are just like people who say they
can't have a gear up landing. People, no matter how well trained, do
make errors. It is the attitude that it CAN'T happen to you is what get
people hurt because if it CAN'T happen to you then you will start making
the other mistakes that end up with it happening while the gun is
pointed at someone.

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 02:20 PM

On Mar 25, 9:31 am, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:
>
> I saw about 50 ADs as a range officer and they all were, luckily, fired

This must have been a civilian range?

Military ADs get court martial. In 21 years I witnessed one.

Dan Mc

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 02:56 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 25, 9:31 am, Gig 601XL Builder >
> wrote:
>> I saw about 50 ADs as a range officer and they all were, luckily, fired
>
> This must have been a civilian range?
>
> Military ADs get court martial. In 21 years I witnessed one.
>
>
> Dan Mc
>

Yes it was civilian.

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 03:26 PM

On Mar 25, 10:56 am, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > On Mar 25, 9:31 am, Gig 601XL Builder >
> > wrote:
> >> I saw about 50 ADs as a range officer and they all were, luckily, fired
>
> > This must have been a civilian range?
>
> > Military ADs get court martial. In 21 years I witnessed one.
>
> > Dan Mc
>
> Yes it was civilian.

On most civilian ranges I've been on -- public and private -- I
usually witness at least one stupid, potentially deadly move per
session.

We're members in a local sportsman's club because the have good
archery facilities and a 400 yard rifle range. The fall I was there
sighting in the 30-06, doing the walk to check and rest targets, etc.

On the way back I look downrange -- I see once-a-year-before-deer-
hunting genius "setting up" his rifle.

As I approached I very casually said, "Do you mind waiting until the
range is clear before handling your rifle?"

"It's not loaded" was the reply.

gatt[_2_]

March 25th 08, 03:32 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
>> > I don't have an SUV, I have a F-150 for hauling
>>
>> Heh. Must be the forum. I parsed that as "F-15" and then had to stop to
>> think of what kind of an airplane an F-150 is....
>
> Hard to haul hay in an F-15.

Well, I was going to say "Just hitch a trailer to it" but then I thought of
the obvious complication, which is that hay doesn't like afterburners.

I knew there was a reason it hasn't been done...

JGalban via AviationKB.com

March 25th 08, 04:22 PM

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>John, how many of the folks you grew up with accidentally shot someone?
>

Two (that I know of). These were friends that were known to be prone to
ADs. I refused to go hunting with them. One had accidentally shot his TV
while showing us his "quick-draw" technique. He eventually ended up
shooting a hunting partner in the butt while quail hunting. The other guy
was known for accidentally shooting holes in camper while on hunting trips.
He attempted to put a loaded shotgun into a sling on the front of a pickup
truck seat. The owner of the truck was already sitting in the driver's seat
and got a big chunk of his leg blown off.

Among my circle of friends, it was known who had a cavalier attitude
towards firearms. I tended to avoid being around them anytime there were
firearms present.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 04:42 PM

On Mar 25, 11:32 am, "gatt" > wrote:
>
> > Hard to haul hay in an F-15.
>
> Well, I was going to say "Just hitch a trailer to it" but then I thought of
> the obvious complication, which is that hay doesn't like afterburners.
>
> I knew there was a reason it hasn't been done...

Maybe if you cover the hay with a wet tarp?

I have the trailer, tarp, and hay -- got an F-15 handy?

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 04:57 PM

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> John, how many of the folks you grew up with accidentally shot someone?
>>
>
> Two (that I know of). These were friends that were known to be prone to
> ADs. I refused to go hunting with them. One had accidentally shot his TV
> while showing us his "quick-draw" technique. He eventually ended up
> shooting a hunting partner in the butt while quail hunting. The other guy
> was known for accidentally shooting holes in camper while on hunting trips.
> He attempted to put a loaded shotgun into a sling on the front of a pickup
> truck seat. The owner of the truck was already sitting in the driver's seat
> and got a big chunk of his leg blown off.
>
> Among my circle of friends, it was known who had a cavalier attitude
> towards firearms. I tended to avoid being around them anytime there were
> firearms present.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

Hunters do seem to get way more than their share of ADs. This is
probably because they only shoot and handle the gun a few times a year
and go long periods between handling much less firing.

Thinking of ADs does remind me of another onethat happened in the hotel
at the USPSA Nationals several years ago.

A competitor was practicing mag changes in his room and letting the
dropped mags fall to the bed. He said he had been doing it for about
five minutes when BANG. A .38 Super sound fired and went through the
wall over his bed, and the next room's bed and the next and the next and
the next. If I remember correctly five rooms were involved and the
bullet finally lodged in a wall and was recovered.

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 05:05 PM

On Mar 25, 12:57 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:
> JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
> > Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> >> John, how many of the folks you grew up with accidentally shot someone?
>
> > Two (that I know of). These were friends that were known to be prone to
> > ADs. I refused to go hunting with them. One had accidentally shot his TV
> > while showing us his "quick-draw" technique. He eventually ended up
> > shooting a hunting partner in the butt while quail hunting. The other guy
> > was known for accidentally shooting holes in camper while on hunting trips.
> > He attempted to put a loaded shotgun into a sling on the front of a pickup
> > truck seat. The owner of the truck was already sitting in the driver's seat
> > and got a big chunk of his leg blown off.
>
> > Among my circle of friends, it was known who had a cavalier attitude
> > towards firearms. I tended to avoid being around them anytime there were
> > firearms present.
>
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
> Hunters do seem to get way more than their share of ADs. This is
> probably because they only shoot and handle the gun a few times a year
> and go long periods between handling much less firing.
>
> Thinking of ADs does remind me of another onethat happened in the hotel
> at the USPSA Nationals several years ago.
>
> A competitor was practicing mag changes in his room and letting the
> dropped mags fall to the bed. He said he had been doing it for about
> five minutes when BANG. A .38 Super sound fired and went through the
> wall over his bed, and the next room's bed and the next and the next and
> the next. If I remember correctly five rooms were involved and the
> bullet finally lodged in a wall and was recovered.

To clarify --- careful (i.e. well trained) shooters practice "dry
fire" exercises all the time.

A cardinal rule is to always practice in one place (room, range,
field, etc), while all ammunition is in another.

An even better technique is to use practice mags, colored pink or
orange.

Dan Mc

Phil J

March 25th 08, 05:46 PM

On Mar 24, 12:07*pm, "gatt" > wrote:
> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplan...
>
> Awfer... * *there went that experiment.
>
> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to a
> statement released by the airline...."
>
> -c

This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.

Phil

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 06:53 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> Jim Logajan > wrote
>> > Ron Garret wrote:
>> >> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> >>> Eeyore wrote
>> >>> > WingFlaps wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>> >>> >> depressurizing ?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > WHAT terrorists ?
>> >>>
>> >>> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard
planespoter?
>> >>
>> >> Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
>> >> would be more than one hijacking a month.)
>> >
>> > I'm glad someone else asked. ;-)
>> >
>> > The implicit context appeared to be U.S. registered aircraft and I
>> > didn't know that many had been hijacked since 2001! Maybe worldwide
>> > there might have been that many - but that still seems high. Maybe
>> > Bertie is including boats and/or cars? (Geez, could they hijack
trains
>> > too? I could see how the authorities would have a hard time
tracking
>> > down a hijacked train. ;-))
>> >
>>
>> Nope, just airplanes. Most were criminal enterprises. ( ransome) some
>> were asylum seekers and some were disgruntled employees.
>>
>> Scary eh?
>
> So not actually TERRORISTS then ?
>
> How about a cite Bertie ?

Go **** yourself planespotter

AUK AAVFFF ADA the nose added, fjukkwit.

Bertie
>

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 06:55 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> Ron Garret wrote
>> > Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> >> Eeyore wrote
>> >> > WingFlaps wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Why don't the airlines consider disabling terrorists by
>> >> >> depressurizing ?
>> >> >
>> >> > WHAT terrorists ?
>> >>
>> >> So, the 93 hijackings since 2001 don't count, fjukktard
planespoter?
>> >
>> > Huh? Did I miss something? What 93 hijackings were those? (That
>> > would be more than one hijacking a month.)
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's exactly how many there have been. We had to do our
annual
>> security course a few weeks ago and we had to guess how many theyre
had
>> been worldwide. First guess was none, then, one or two were
remembered
>> so we guessed three. The instructor illuminated us. Most were in
South
>> America or Africa, but a substantial number weren't...
>
> How many were TERRORISTS Bertie ?

Why, do you have a special column in your planespotters logbook for
terrorist flights, planespotter?

>
> And how many were scheduled passenger services ?

Who gives a ****, fjukkwit?

Don't you have someone to netkkkop?

Bertie

>

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 25th 08, 06:56 PM

"Matt W. Barrow" > wrote in
:

>
> "WingFlaps" > wrote in message
> news:4e6254b3-c090-4df5-b316-38ba32bf4272
@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 25, 11:36 am, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> > Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>> > > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>
>> > Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me
is
>> > somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>>
>> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>>
>::
>:: Oooh such anger!
>:: Can you insult me so eloquently too -pretty please?
>
> Pootyhead!
>
>
>

Hey, you didn't call me a pootyhead.

Bertie

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 06:58 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 25, 12:57 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
> wrote:

>> Thinking of ADs does remind me of another onethat happened in the hotel
>> at the USPSA Nationals several years ago.
>>
>> A competitor was practicing mag changes in his room and letting the
>> dropped mags fall to the bed. He said he had been doing it for about
>> five minutes when BANG. A .38 Super sound fired and went through the
>> wall over his bed, and the next room's bed and the next and the next and
>> the next. If I remember correctly five rooms were involved and the
>> bullet finally lodged in a wall and was recovered.
>
> To clarify --- careful (i.e. well trained) shooters practice "dry
> fire" exercises all the time.
>
> A cardinal rule is to always practice in one place (room, range,
> field, etc), while all ammunition is in another.
>
> An even better technique is to use practice mags, colored pink or
> orange.
>
>
> Dan Mc

I couldn't agree more. The story above happened before the first day of
competition so he probably had driven all the way from where ever he
lived to Quincy with the round in the chamber and didn't know it.

This guy wasn't a hack though. He was an experienced either Master or A
class shooter.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 25th 08, 07:01 PM

WingFlaps > wrote in news:05bdb035-545c-445a-b2ad-
:

> On Mar 25, 11:51*am, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
>> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>>
>> > * Yet again...politics!
>>
>> * Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>>
>> * A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friend
> s on
>> hunting trips. *
>>
>
> Evolution in action?

Technically, that's natural selection.

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 07:08 PM

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> This guy wasn't a hack though. He was an experienced either Master or A
> class shooter.

Don't take this the wrong way -- but too many of the Pistol
competition types are in it for the game first.

That's fine and perfectly acceptable use of firearms (there are many!)
but the Military/LE approach drills in a "weapon" mindset, which in
the long run should result in a greater level of respect.

Are there exceptions? Absolutely! But I've found the guys on the range
that are prior service types (Army and marines particularly) have a
more careful, deliberate approach, while the civilian shooters --
though accomplished -- seem a bit more cavalier.

Dan Mc

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 07:52 PM

Dan wrote:
>
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>> This guy wasn't a hack though. He was an experienced either Master or A
>> class shooter.
>
> Don't take this the wrong way -- but too many of the Pistol
> competition types are in it for the game first.
>
> That's fine and perfectly acceptable use of firearms (there are many!)
> but the Military/LE approach drills in a "weapon" mindset, which in
> the long run should result in a greater level of respect.
>
> Are there exceptions? Absolutely! But I've found the guys on the range
> that are prior service types (Army and marines particularly) have a
> more careful, deliberate approach, while the civilian shooters --
> though accomplished -- seem a bit more cavalier.
>
>
> Dan Mc

I shot with Military, Police and civilian shooters during my time
shooting USPSA. And you are right there are a lot of gamers out there
(and they weren't all civilian) in USPSA that was to be expected because
it was a game. We kept score and gave prizes.

In fact, the US Army team that was at the last USPSA nationals I
attended were great shots and quite the gamesmen as well.

And I don't want you to take it the wrong way but a lot of the tactics,
methods and hardware that was developed for USPSA has made it into
police and even military use.

The NRA Police Practical course hadn't changed in years and wasn't very
practical even when it was new. The courses of fire at the NRA National
Matches which are not much better.

There is no way to fully put into play the stresses of an actual
shooting situation in a practice environment. Competition is a close as
I've seen to being able to even try to mimic it.

Dan[_10_]

March 25th 08, 08:16 PM

On Mar 25, 3:52 pm, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:

> And I don't want you to take it the wrong way but a lot of the tactics,
> methods and hardware that was developed for USPSA has made it into
> police and even military use.

Absolutely! Most innovations come from outside the military, including
tactical and equipment.

Dan Mc

gatt[_2_]

March 25th 08, 08:22 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...

>> > Hard to haul hay in an F-15.
>>
>> Well, I was going to say "Just hitch a trailer to it" but then I thought
>> of
>> the obvious complication, which is that hay doesn't like afterburners.
>>
>> I knew there was a reason it hasn't been done...
>
> Maybe if you cover the hay with a wet tarp?
>
> I have the trailer, tarp, and hay -- got an F-15 handy?

Well, I guess I'm out. By the time I got the F-15 I wouldn't be able to
afford the trailer hitch.

-c

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 25th 08, 09:52 PM

And an update: According to AvWeb it was a H&K .40 caliber
semi-automatic pistol.

Roger[_4_]

March 26th 08, 04:50 AM

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:08:27 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 25, 4:45 am, Roger > wrote:
>>
>> I do believe there is a current bolt action available that uses the 50
>> CAl though. Don't think I could handle either the recoil or price
>> on that one either, although I could afford the ammunition. Can you
>> imagine how that thing must kick?
>
>Barrett is the name in .50 Caliber bolt actions. The 50 is a supreme
>long range caliber, with knock-down power out far past its MER.
>
>I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
>than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.
>

Yup, that's the one. I'd like to have one of those too. don't know
what I'd do with it other than hang it over the mantel and going back
to cooking my own meals doesn't sound all that great.

>Dan Mc
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger[_4_]

March 26th 08, 05:49 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:56:49 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 24, 8:35 pm, Roger > wrote:
>
>> >3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
>>
>> My wife's is always ready to use. That is whey after sticking my
>
>"Ready to use" is meant to be interpreted in context. A concealed
>carry handgun is loaded because it may be used at any time. Therefore
>it is being "used" as it is being carried.
>
>> >Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the
>>
>> And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
>> 9mm?
>>
>The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
>thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
>trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.

Although considered a safety the problem is it's not a true safety in
the sense of preventing an accidental firing. (Unlike the 1911 which
blocks the firing pin) If you drop it and something hits the trigger
from the front it'll fire and don't go sticking it in your belt.<:-))

>
>> >Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>>
>> Minding and intending have little to do with each other.
>> If some one broke into our home in the middle of the night I would
>> deeply regret the resutls of my intentions.
>
>No kidding. If you haven't worked through the scenarios beforehand,
>you'll lose. The preps certainly have no compunction about offing you.
>

>
>Best plan is to determine the extent of legal use of deadly force in
>your jurisdiction and then plan to that contingency.

Self defense is the only option in MI. Protection of property is not.
At night you only need fear for your life. You are still going to have
to explain as does every officer. At least you no longer have to
prove you exhausted all avenues of escape.

>
>> Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.
>
>Then be fast and accurate.
I'm not faster than a ricochet
>
>Don't try to lecture me on firearms, Roger. I have more ten times more

And where was I doing that?
That is one of the problems with Usenet. We reply in first person and
it sounds like a lecture.

>hours on ranges than you have hours in your Deb.

I've only seen one AD on a trap range and I've been around a very long
time. It went off when the action closed on a semi auto. (don't
remember if it was a Remington 1100 or Winchester 1400). Hands were
clear of the trigger guard and barrel down range. Could have been a
high primer... who knows. Scared the guy with the shotgun more than
any one else. There was an AD at the MI State trap shoot one year.
Not sure of the details, but the weather IIRC was light rain, the
guy with the shot gun closed the action and dropped the thing either
when mounting it to his shoulder of closing the action. It went off
when it hit the ground. Unfortunately it landed with the barrel
pointed to the rear. Fortunately it was in the mud and although it
blasted a guy in the back the dirt took up a lot of the power. The
only guns I can think of that would pivot like that when closing would
be a single or double barrel but as I said, I wasn't there.

Now the old Winchester predecessor of the model 12 (don't remember the
model number but it had an open hammer) those were notorious for going
off when closing the action. They also didn't have a disconnector.

Roger (K8RI)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

WingFlaps

March 26th 08, 09:28 AM

On Mar 26, 7:56*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> "Matt W. Barrow" > wrote :
>
>
>
> > "WingFlaps" > wrote in message
> > news:4e6254b3-c090-4df5-b316-38ba32bf4272
>
> @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 11:36 am, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > wrote:
> >> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> > Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
> >> > > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>
> >> > Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to me
> is
> >> > somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand trolling.
>
> >> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>
> >::
> >:: Oooh such anger!
> >:: Can you insult me so eloquently too *-pretty please?
>
> > Pootyhead!
>
> Hey, you didn't call me a pootyhead.
>
That's 'cos he doesn't have warm slippery feelings for you.

Cheers

WingFlaps

March 26th 08, 09:28 AM

On Mar 26, 8:01*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:05bdb035-545c-445a-b2ad-
> :
>
> > On Mar 25, 11:51*am, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
> >> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
> >> > * Yet again...politics!
>
> >> * Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>
> >> * A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their friend
> > s on
> >> hunting trips. *
>
> > Evolution in action?
>
> Technically, that's natural selection.
>
Right. Wish there was more...

Cheers

Dan[_10_]

March 26th 08, 12:27 PM

On Mar 26, 1:49 am, Roger > wrote:
>
> >The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
> >thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
> >trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.
>
> Although considered a safety the problem is it's not a true safety in
> the sense of preventing an accidental firing. (Unlike the 1911 which
> blocks the firing pin) If you drop it and something hits the trigger
> from the front it'll fire and don't go sticking it in your belt.<:-))

By "true safety" I suppose you mean a separate switch that blocks the
action in some way (There is no safety designed, manufactured, or sold
that "prevents accidental firing" -- or at least that had better be
your attitude while handling firearms).

That's simply defining 'safety" too narrowly. Even the 1911 has a grip
safety.

The Glock trigger safety has been proven in various field tests and in
daily use by the FBI, NYPD, DEA, and about 60% of all Law Enforcement
agencies in the US.

If you think about it, there's no better place for a safety -- the
only time there should be 3-7 lbs of pressure pulling back directly on
that trigger is when you want to fire. An no -- it doesn't go off if
you drop it, it catches on your belt, etc, etc etc. If it does you're
the victim of your own carelessness.

Anyone who carries a firearm in their belt without a holster is asking
for trouble.

> Self defense is the only option in MI. Protection of property is not.
> At night you only need fear for your life. You are still going to have
> to explain as does every officer. At least you no longer have to
> prove you exhausted all avenues of escape.

You're confirming my statement that you should "determine the extent
of legal use of deadly force for your jurisdiction..." And that
includes townships. Just because the state law provides some
definition of "self defense" doesn't mean your township or city
doesn't have more restrictive or more loosely defined laws.

Once you've figured out what the rules are, rehearse your actions
mentally and from time to time physically ("Should I turn on a light?
Use a Flashlight? Stand at the top of the stairs?") so that when you
hear something at 3 AM you can act as you planned in your woozy,
startled state.

The worst thing you can do is follow Uncle Ned's advice to shoot the
guy as he runs away and drag him into the house.

In nearly all jurisdictions in the United States, an intruder in your
house at night warrants the use of deadly force. Also nearly universal
is that you can't shoot an old lady who cut you off on the turnpike
(Texas is exempt, I think).

Bottom line -- learn the law before you have to explain your actions
in court. If you own or carry a firearm for self defense, you'd better
be prepared to deal with the consequences.

> >> Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.
>
> >Then be fast and accurate.
>
> I'm not faster than a ricochet

Ridiculous.

There's not an item in my (and I'm sure your) house that will cause a
direct ricochet of the typical expanding self-defense round -- unless
you have a huge collection of Battleship steel cuttings hanging on
your walls.

> And where was I doing that?
> That is one of the problems with Usenet. We reply in first person and
> it sounds like a lecture.

Please forgive my misinterpretation.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 26th 08, 01:15 PM

On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark > wrote:
>
> As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
> only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
> other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
> count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

Dan Mc

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 26th 08, 02:09 PM

Dan wrote:

> Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.
>
> Dan Mc
>

That's probably it. Stop by a local gunshop and check out a Kimber. It
is real hard to believe it's the same design.

Dan[_10_]

March 26th 08, 02:20 PM

On Mar 26, 10:09 am, Gig 601XL Builder >
wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.
>
> > Dan Mc
>
> That's probably it. Stop by a local gunshop and check out a Kimber. It
> is real hard to believe it's the same design.

Those are very nice -- Springfield Armory, Para Ordnace, even Smith &
Wesson are in the 1911 game.

My personal, totally biased preference is a Sig 229 in 9mm -- lots of
rounds, plenty of punch, cheap practice ammo, flawless feed, solid
feel, perfect machining, compact size --a really, really nice pistol.

The .40 is a decent compromise, but the more I shoot, the more I
realize the 9mm cartridge is probably the best overall compromise
handgun round. Keep in mind -- a handgun is something you use to fight
your way to your long gun.

I don't plan on plinking wild drugged up tribesmen, so a 45 just
doesn't fit my mission profile.

H&Ks are nice, but I don't have much expereince with those.

Dan Mc

Jon Woellhaf

March 26th 08, 05:13 PM

I fired it without a recoil pad.

Once.

Never again!

>>I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
>>than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.

Dan[_10_]

March 26th 08, 05:40 PM

On Mar 26, 1:13 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> I fired it without a recoil pad.
>
> Once.
>
> Never again!
>
> >>I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
> >>than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.

Can I ask.. what were you thinking??!?!?

Or was there a girl watching?

;-)

Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]

March 26th 08, 06:10 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 26, 1:13 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>> I fired it without a recoil pad.
>>
>> Once.
>>
>> Never again!
>>
>>>> I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
>>>> than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.
>
> Can I ask.. what were you thinking??!?!?
>

No kidding. Are you able to use your arm yet.

The Semi-Auto version isn't near as bad.

Matt W. Barrow

March 26th 08, 10:54 PM

"Gig 601XL Builder" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 1:13 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>>> I fired it without a recoil pad.
>>>
>>> Once.
>>>
>>> Never again!
>>>
>>>>> I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
>>>>> than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.
>>
>> Can I ask.. what were you thinking??!?!?
>>
>
> No kidding. Are you able to use your arm yet.
>
> The Semi-Auto version isn't near as bad.

Many moons ago I was at a range shooting a 300 Win Mag, when I got into a
conversation with an older gentleman who was shooting a 58 Sharps. He
offered, with a gleam in his eye, to have me try it. He said "It's kicks a
mite!".

No kidding! I fired one shot, then went 20 yards behind the firing line to
retrieve my right arm and shoulder.

Now, I'm 6'2" and was about 200-205 lbs when this happened, and I was
thinking that, during the buffalo hunting days, the average man was about
5'7" to 5'9" and about 155-160 lbs. Just how in the hell did those guys
survive more than a few rounds with that thing?

Dan[_10_]

March 26th 08, 11:58 PM

On Mar 26, 6:54 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:

>
> Many moons ago I was at a range shooting a 300 Win Mag, when I got into a
> conversation with an older gentleman who was shooting a 58 Sharps. He
> offered, with a gleam in his eye, to have me try it. He said "It's kicks a
> mite!".

..300 Win Mag -- how many elephants you need in your trophy room?!?

I shoot a 30-06 because it's the hardest kicking rifle I can shoot all
day long. Any bigger and after a box I'm done.

> Now, I'm 6'2" and was about 200-205 lbs when this happened, and I was
> thinking that, during the buffalo hunting days, the average man was about
> 5'7" to 5'9" and about 155-160 lbs. Just how in the hell did those guys
> survive more than a few rounds with that thing?

Seriously?

Big Wool Sweaters.

Look at the stocks on those things -- it didn't take an 19th Century
buffalo guy long to figure he could stuff something behind that nasty
butt and avoid tendon damage, yet still have a good sight picture.

Dan Mc

Jon Woellhaf

March 27th 08, 01:03 AM

I didn't want to appear to be a wimp. Yes, there were girls watching. And my
son. And everyone else at the range. (INDOOR range, by the way.)

My shoulder was back to normal in less than a week. I was hoping for a huge
bruise, but all I got was a little raspberry and a couple nicks. Not even
worth a photo.

I saw on TV several women shooting LOTS of .50 rounds with an auto feeder.
As I recall, they started at 200 yards, moved to 600, then moved to 1000. It
was the first time one of them had shot ANY rifle! Amazing. After seeing
that, I guess I thought it couldn't kick all that much. The semi-auto must
have much less recoil.

"Gig 601XL Builder" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 1:13 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>>> I fired it without a recoil pad.
>>>
>>> Once.
>>>
>>> Never again!
>>>
>>>>> I've never seen or heard of anyone firing this in any other position
>>>>> than prone, with a bi or tripod and recoil pad.
>>
>> Can I ask.. what were you thinking??!?!?
>>
>
> No kidding. Are you able to use your arm yet.
>
> The Semi-Auto version isn't near as bad.

Rich Ahrens[_2_]

March 27th 08, 01:06 AM

on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
> On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" > wrote:
>> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplan...
>>
>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>
>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to a
>> statement released by the airline...."
>>
>> -c
>
> This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
> didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.

And this was no accident either:

http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401

Nice drill there, pal...

Matt W. Barrow

March 27th 08, 02:21 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 26, 6:54 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Many moons ago I was at a range shooting a 300 Win Mag, when I got into a
>> conversation with an older gentleman who was shooting a 58 Sharps. He
>> offered, with a gleam in his eye, to have me try it. He said "It's kicks
>> a
>> mite!".
>
> .300 Win Mag -- how many elephants you need in your trophy room?!?

Actually, it was my moose gun. If I was going for elephant, I'd pick up no
lessthan a .375 H&H. Now, I recall that the old hunting writer Jack O'Connor
hunted everything under the sun with a .270, but Jack had cajones as big as
church bells.

>
> I shoot a 30-06 because it's the hardest kicking rifle I can shoot all
> day long. Any bigger and after a box I'm done.

For testing loads or sighting in, I put a sandbag between the buttplate and
my shoulder. I've shot 60 rounds of .300 Winny in a day with no (apparent)
adverse effect (other than scrambling my brains, as some here would attest).

>
>> Now, I'm 6'2" and was about 200-205 lbs when this happened, and I was
>> thinking that, during the buffalo hunting days, the average man was about
>> 5'7" to 5'9" and about 155-160 lbs. Just how in the hell did those guys
>> survive more than a few rounds with that thing?
>
>
> Seriously?
>
> Big Wool Sweaters.
>
> Look at the stocks on those things -- it didn't take an 19th Century
> buffalo guy long to figure he could stuff something behind that nasty
> butt and avoid tendon damage, yet still have a good sight picture.

Even still, those were some tough hombres'.

Matt W. Barrow

March 27th 08, 02:29 AM

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
. ..
>I didn't want to appear to be a wimp. Yes, there were girls watching. And
>my son. And everyone else at the range. (INDOOR range, by the way.)
>
> My shoulder was back to normal in less than a week. I was hoping for a
> huge bruise, but all I got was a little raspberry and a couple nicks. Not
> even worth a photo.
>
> I saw on TV several women shooting LOTS of .50 rounds with an auto feeder.
> As I recall, they started at 200 yards, moved to 600, then moved to 1000.
> It was the first time one of them had shot ANY rifle! Amazing. After
> seeing that, I guess I thought it couldn't kick all that much. The
> semi-auto must have much less recoil.

http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx (Barrett M82A/M107)

With the muzzle brake and the gas operation, it supposedly kicks about like
a 7mm Mag in a full sized bolt action.

It's 30 pound weight helps, too.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 27th 08, 02:45 AM

WingFlaps > wrote in news:93a70561-1ea7-4c84-9efa-
:

> On Mar 26, 8:01*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> WingFlaps > wrote in news:05bdb035-545c-445a-
b2ad-
>> :
>>
>> > On Mar 25, 11:51*am, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe>
wrote:
>> >> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>>
>> >> > * Yet again...politics!
>>
>> >> * Just for the record, I did not grow up with Dick Cheney :-)
>>
>> >> * A couple of guys I know did wind up accidentally shooting their
fri
> end
>> > s on
>> >> hunting trips. *
>>
>> > Evolution in action?
>>
>> Technically, that's natural selection.
>>
> Right. Wish there was more...
>
> Cheers
>

If malthus has anything to say about it, there will be!

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 27th 08, 02:57 AM

WingFlaps > wrote in
:

> On Mar 26, 7:56*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> "Matt W. Barrow" > wrote
>> innews:gC5Gj.42629$Q
> :
>>
>>
>>
>> > "WingFlaps" > wrote in message
>> > news:4e6254b3-c090-4df5-b316-38ba32bf4272
>>
>> @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 25, 11:36 am, "Matt W. Barrow"
>> > > wrote:
>> >> On Mar 24, 5:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> > Dan > wrote innews:ebef48ed-3f45-4584-b2c2-
>> >> > > What does Dudley have to do with it?
>>
>> >> > Nothing. Matt thinks in his tiny mind that anyone who talks to
>> >> > me
>> is
>> >> > somehow enabling me. It's because he doesn't understand
>> >> > trolling.
>>
>> >> And you certainly do you demented POS.
>>
>> >::
>> >:: Oooh such anger!
>> >:: Can you insult me so eloquently too *-pretty please?
>>
>> > Pootyhead!
>>
>> Hey, you didn't call me a pootyhead.
>>
> That's 'cos he doesn't have warm slippery feelings for you.
>
> Cheers
>

everyone has warm slippery feelings for the bunyip!

bertie

Big John

March 27th 08, 03:54 AM

John Ousterhout[_2_]

March 27th 08, 03:58 AM

Rich Ahrens wrote:
> on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
>> On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" > wrote:
>>> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplan...
>>>
>>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>>
>>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday,
>>> according to a
>>> statement released by the airline...."
>>>
>>> -c
>>
>> This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
>> didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.
>
> And this was no accident either:
>
> http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401
>
> Nice drill there, pal...

Geez! Doesn't everyone know that you're supposed to use a 38 claiber
handgun to make holes for coax?

- J.O.-

Rich Ahrens[_2_]

March 27th 08, 04:32 AM

on 3/26/2008 10:58 PM John Ousterhout said the following:
> Rich Ahrens wrote:
>> on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
>>> On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" > wrote:
>>>> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplan...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>>>
>>>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>>>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday,
>>>> according to a
>>>> statement released by the airline...."
>>>>
>>>> -c
>>>
>>> This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
>>> didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.
>>
>> And this was no accident either:
>>
>> http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401
>>
>> Nice drill there, pal...
>
> Geez! Doesn't everyone know that you're supposed to use a 38 claiber
> handgun to make holes for coax?

As someone noted in the first comment on that page...

Dan[_10_]

March 27th 08, 11:29 AM

On Mar 26, 11:54 pm, Big John > wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark > wrote:
>
> >> As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
> >> only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
> >> other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
> >> count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.
>
> >I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
> >1990).
>
> >They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
> >do (to the point of veneration).
>
> >Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.
>
> >Dan Mc
>
> *******************************************
>
> Dan Mc
>
> I'm one who is attached to the 45.
>
> I started shooting it in 1941, in the military, and shot expert every
> time I qualified until I retired in 1972. This included the range guns
> that sounded like a bunch of rocks in a tin can when they were shaken.
>
> After I retired, I purchased a new 45 and have it as a home protection
> gun.
>
> My procedure is to remove the magazine and lock the slide open. Then
> visually inspect the barrel to see that it is empty. I then close the
> slide and pointing toward the roof I snap the trigger. I then put the
> magazine back in the handle and gun back in my bed side table. No
> rounds are left in barrel.
>
> If I were to hear someone breaking into my house I would pick up gun
> and jack the slide, putting a round in barrel and slide in battery and
> gun cocked.
>
> If needed I would then be able to fire the whole magazine of rounds. I
> use frangible bullets so that they will not penetrate a standard wall.
>
> When gun is hot, I keep my trigger finger outside the trigger guard
> and along side the side of the gun until I plan on firing.
>
> After going hot and I need to unload gun, I go through the same
> procedure to make it cold, clean if fired and set up again in bedside
> table.
>
> This is a never change procedure and I feel very comfortable with the
> safety of it having used it for years.
>
> Big John

Big John,

The 45 is notorious for the rattling sound because the slide to frame
fit, the barrel, and the barrel bushing were made intentionally loose
so that the pistol would feed and the action would work even if gummed
up with dirt, etc. When the slide is forward the pistol tightens up
(or should!).

Pistol qualification ranges changed over the years until the latest
incarnations ("Combat Pistol" i.e. Pop up range).

On these ranges the targets were so close you could throw an empty
magazine and score a knockdown.

The Army (don't know about the other services) really downplayed
pistol skills except for competition shooters. As an Armor officer I
was issued a sidearm with the warning "if you gotta use this you are
in deep sh**."

As an Infantry Company Commander carrying a sidearm marked me as an
officer --- not a good thing -- so I carried a rifle.

The Army has differed from the Marines on the amount of time dedicated
to close quarters combat (hand-to-hand, pistol, bayonet, etc) which I
always thought was a mistake so my unit trained CQC whenever I could
get away with it. The soldiers loved it but the brass always wondered
why I was "wasting valuable training time."

Reason #3,788,321 to retire when I did.

As far as the method of carry -- the 1911 in condition 1 (round in the
chamber, hammer back, safety on) is as safe as you'll get and requires
minimal motion to fire. I used to maintain my semi-autos in condition
2 but realized I won't always have the luxury of "hearing the bump in
the night" to give me time to rack a round.

Though a few years ago a telemarketer called and started his spiel
--"We'll install an $800 security system in your home for free ---"

I interrupted him, "Dude - I have a big dog and a gun -- I'm good to
go."

He laughed and hung up.

Dan Mc

Roger[_4_]

March 28th 08, 05:54 AM

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark > wrote:
>>
>> As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
>> only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
>> other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
>> count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

the last 1911 I fired was one of those in that box of them I
purchased. I have the S&W which is based on the 1911 and that has
both a firing pin AND hammer block. With the safety on the firing pin
is blocked. The hammer rests on a steel block and it can not be
cocked. For those used to the "cocked and locked" approach the first
introduction to the S&W might be a bit unnerving as putting the safety
on in the cocked position causes the hammer to fall. With the S&W
pushing the toggle safety to the fire position enables the double
action so the first pull will cock and fire the thing, BUT there is a
horrendous difference in trigger pull from over 10# in the double
action first shot to between 2 and 3# for subsequent shots.
The toggle is the only safety on the S&W. It does not have the grip
safety.

With my small hands this causes a shift in position making the
transition from the first shot to those following one that "for me"
eliminates any kind of acceptable accuracy. From the "cocked and
locked" position I do quite well

>
>
>I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
>1990).
>
>They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
>do (to the point of veneration).
>
>Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

After the first shot in actual combat most of us would have trouble
matching the capabilities of those clapped out 1911s. One the fine
motor skills have left the building along with Elvis it's sorta point
and shoot.
>
I used to have customers come in and ask what would be the best
handgun for home defense. My usual rejoinder to this was if they had
to ask, don't get a hand gun. If they still insisted I suggested a
trip to the local gun club and a class. Our local police department
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.
>
They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides
between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)

After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
conditions.

It's strange the ADs came up. Just couple days ago one of our local
business men had his hand guns out to the range. I do not know the
particulars as they have not been released. The only information
available is he had his hand guns to the range, dropped one, it went
off, and he's no longer with us. The revolver should not have been
loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
reprimand.

I can only guess, but "I'd guess" he was probably placing several
handguns on the stand loaded, but "Id think" even then one falling
should not have caused an AD IF it was a modern firearm. If he fell
down with one in his hand he had his finger somewhere it didn't
belong. There are really just too many possibilities with the
exception he almost had to be violating safety rules. Which ones and
how is a different matter. Having spent so much time on a range Dan
might be able to speculate but with the information present that is
about all that is possible as far as I can see.

>
>Dan Mc
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger[_4_]

March 28th 08, 05:58 AM

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:06:01 -0500, Rich Ahrens >
wrote:

>on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
>> On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" > wrote:
>>> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplan...
>>>
>>> Awfer... there went that experiment.
>>>
>>> " CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
>>> discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to a
>>> statement released by the airline...."
>>>
>>> -c
>>
>> This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
>> didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.
>
>And this was no accident either:
>
>http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401

Dear, please stand a little to the left so you can get a better look
at where they may come though.<:-))

>
>Nice drill there, pal...
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dan[_10_]

March 28th 08, 11:34 AM

On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger > wrote:
> The revolver should not have been
> loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
> bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
> the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
> that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
> service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
> reprimand.

While I agree it's safe practice to get everything setup prior to
firing at a range, I don't think you mean that you couldn't walk up
and start firing if you wanted to...?

Each state is different, but a concealed carry permit means you can
carry a loaded firearm. That means you should be able to draw and fire
at any time -- range, backyard, or in an alley.

Dan Mc

Dylan Smith

March 28th 08, 11:55 AM

On 2008-03-28, Roger > wrote:
[home defence]
> has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
> barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.

One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

Dan[_10_]

March 28th 08, 12:01 PM

On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger > wrote:

> I used to have customers come in and ask what would be the best
> handgun for home defense. My usual rejoinder to this was if they had
> to ask, don't get a hand gun. If they still insisted I suggested a
> trip to the local gun club and a class. Our local police department
> has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
> barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

Absolutely -- a shotgun is an excellent home defense weapon. There are
plenty of pump actions that are reliable and inexpensive. The sound of
a pump chambering a round is usually quite persuasive. You don't aim a
shotgun -- you point.

It takes a lot of practice in many different positions to be truly
proficient with a handgun. Most people's exposure to handguns comes
from movies, where 110 lb spandex-wearing female heroines fire .50
caliber Desert Eagles (one ine each hand) while riding motorcycles.

The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
those are the people actually practicing.

Therefore the shotgun is the absolute best choice for home defense --
point it at the bad guy, pull the trigger, cycle the action, and pull
again. If you don't him him follow the trail of poop to find him.

Though be sure the choke tubes are removed if you're using the gun for
home defense.

The short barrel's main advantage is that it prevents someone from
grabbing the barrel as you round a corner.

As far as Gun clubs -- whew -- and you think GA is bad when it comes
to winning over new members?

I stopped by a local range/Gun Store near hear a while ago. The
counter guy about wet his pants trying to show off how much he knew.
When I asked him where he served (he was using all sorts of Military
jargon) he mumbled something about a knee injury...

Gun shops and clubs are infected with all the various types of
humanity the rest of us are, but they seem particularly prone to
attracting the know-it-all show off who lives for the moment he can
show up some "newbie."

It's really a shame because shooting can be fun, challenging, and can
provide a good outlet -- in many ways like aviation. But many people
(especially women) are turned off by the Gun Club culture.

> They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
> don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
> or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides
> between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
> night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
> My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
> better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

Shotgun pellets usually won't go very very through walls, but what
handgun are you shooting that will penetrate "3, 4, or 5 houses down
the street"?

A high powered rifle bullet might pass that far, but a handgun?

> When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
> your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
> and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)

Training, training, and more training. If you're not willing to invest
the time to attain and maintain proficiency, buy a shotgun.

> After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
> their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
> sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
> like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
> conditions.

I've shot in "fun houses" (Urban combat) plenty of times. Once you get
the adrenaline going and you get momentarily deafened by the first
shot, you're good to go. I never expereinced all the physiological
trauma you're talking about with a 9 mm.

> here are really just too many possibilities with the
> exception he almost had to be violating safety rules. Which ones and
> how is a different matter. Having spent so much time on a range Dan
> might be able to speculate but with the information present that is
> about all that is possible as far as I can see.

It' doesn't take range time to know anything's possible. If there's a
way, someone will reason or stumble their way into it.

That's why we drill and practice the firearms handling rules, we don't
make exceptions, and we know the open end wil go boom when we least
expect it.

Dan Mc

WJRFlyBoy

March 28th 08, 09:11 PM

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:

> The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
> over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
> those are the people actually practicing.

Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
less?

Dan[_10_]

March 28th 08, 09:15 PM

On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
> > The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
> > over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
> > those are the people actually practicing.
>
> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
> less?

You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?

I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.

In the meantime try posting something of value.

Dan Mc

Matt Whiting

March 28th 08, 10:12 PM

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On 2008-03-28, Roger > wrote:
> [home defence]
>> has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
>> barrel 12ga was my suggestion.
>
> A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.
>
> One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
> sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
> the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
> where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.
>

True. The rack of a .45 is pretty recognizable as well.

Matt Whiting

March 28th 08, 10:14 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger > wrote:

>> After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
>> their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
>> sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
>> like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
>> conditions.
>
> I've shot in "fun houses" (Urban combat) plenty of times. Once you get
> the adrenaline going and you get momentarily deafened by the first
> shot, you're good to go. I never expereinced all the physiological
> trauma you're talking about with a 9 mm.

And the 9mm isn't even a real gun! :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

March 28th 08, 10:16 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>>> The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
>>> over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
>>> those are the people actually practicing.
>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>> less?
>
> You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
> can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?

I won't argue that as I have no idea speaking from a national
perspective. I don't believe that this isn't true in my neck of the
woods (north central PA). Most folks around here both own guns (several
in many households) and know how to use them. I read once a few years
ago that if the hunters in PA were formed into an army, it would be
something like the 4th largest in the world. :-)

Matt

WJRFlyBoy

March 28th 08, 10:50 PM

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:

> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>>> The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
>>> over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
>>> those are the people actually practicing.
>>
>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>> less?
>
> You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
> can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>
> I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.
>
> In the meantime try posting something of value.
>
> Dan Mc

A simple question, is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1
foot wide..or less? Do you have any FACTS other than your lips flapping
of this house or people missing the side of a house, 25 - 50 feet across
from 20 yards consistently?

Of course you don't, My Little Trick Pony. And yes, once again, that IS
your ass I handed you and that is your HAT too.

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 12:07 AM

On Mar 28, 6:50 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:

> A simple question, is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1
> foot wide..or less? Do you have any FACTS other than your lips flapping
> of this house or people missing the side of a house, 25 - 50 feet across
> from 20 yards consistently?

I'll reduce that sample down to one for the sake of argument.

I'm certain that youou, LRRPBoy, cannot print a 1' group at 20 yards.

Didn't you say you were a LRRP? Unit? years? Rank? CO? Which Ranger
School Class? White Thread or no?

> Of course you don't, My Little Trick Pony. And yes, once again, that IS
> your ass I handed you and that is your HAT too.

Dude, you REALLY need to get out more.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 12:08 AM

On Mar 28, 6:16 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
> I won't argue that as I have no idea speaking from a national
> perspective. I don't believe that this isn't true in my neck of the
> woods (north central PA). Most folks around here both own guns (several
> in many households) and know how to use them. I read once a few years
> ago that if the hunters in PA were formed into an army, it would be
> something like the 4th largest in the world. :-)
>
> Matt

Damn Straight.

Though Opening Day I find a covered and concealed position -- lots of
rounds going downrange on that day!

You in Erie? I like that area -- except between November and Now --
man is it grey!!

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 12:10 AM

On Mar 28, 6:14 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:

> And the 9mm isn't even a real gun! :-)
>
> Matt

Here we go...

:-)

Actually, I'm downsizing the .40 to a 9mm -- I can shoot twice the
ammo for the price as a 45 and 40, can carry 15-16 rounds per mag, and
the guns are smaller and thus more readily concealed.

All Good things.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 12:11 AM

On Mar 28, 6:12 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote:
> > On 2008-03-28, Roger > wrote:
> > [home defence]
> >> has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
> >> barrel 12ga was my suggestion.
>
> > A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.
>
> > One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
> > sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
> > the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
> > where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.
>
> True. The rack of a .45 is pretty recognizable as well.

A .45 1911 should be stowed in Condition 1 carry -- hammer back, round
in the chamber, safety on -- in accordance with the 1911 design
intent.

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 12:14 AM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:12 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>> Dylan Smith wrote:
>>> On 2008-03-28, Roger > wrote:
>>> [home defence]
>>>> has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
>>>> barrel 12ga was my suggestion.
>>> A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.
>>> One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
>>> sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
>>> the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
>>> where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.
>> True. The rack of a .45 is pretty recognizable as well.
>
> A .45 1911 should be stowed in Condition 1 carry -- hammer back, round
> in the chamber, safety on -- in accordance with the 1911 design
> intent.
>

That depends on where and why you are stowing it.

Matt

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 12:15 AM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:16 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>> I won't argue that as I have no idea speaking from a national
>> perspective. I don't believe that this isn't true in my neck of the
>> woods (north central PA). Most folks around here both own guns (several
>> in many households) and know how to use them. I read once a few years
>> ago that if the hunters in PA were formed into an army, it would be
>> something like the 4th largest in the world. :-)
>>
>> Matt
>
> Damn Straight.
>
> Though Opening Day I find a covered and concealed position -- lots of
> rounds going downrange on that day!
>
> You in Erie? I like that area -- except between November and Now --
> man is it grey!!
>
>
> Dan Mc
>

No, central ... Tioga County. Erie is NW PA.

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 12:17 AM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:14 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>> And the 9mm isn't even a real gun! :-)
>>
>> Matt
>
> Here we go...
>
> :-)
>
> Actually, I'm downsizing the .40 to a 9mm -- I can shoot twice the
> ammo for the price as a 45 and 40, can carry 15-16 rounds per mag, and
> the guns are smaller and thus more readily concealed.
>
>
> All Good things.
>
>
> Dan Mc
>

Like a famous lawman once said, when I shoot a perp I don't just want to
make him mad, I want to take him down. I consider the .45 to be
marginal as a self-defense round, but my Super Blackhawk is a trifle
unwieldy in close quarters. :-)

However, if I were outside and the perps were hiding behind a car or
such, then I'd take the SA any day. Only 6 shots, but seldom are more
needed if every one does its job.

Matt

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 12:18 AM

On Mar 28, 8:14 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
> That depends on where and why you are stowing it.
>
> Matt

Absolutely!

The thread was about you waking up and hearing someone breaking into
your house.

I think break-ins can leave you short on time, so locked and cocked
works for me.

I don't have a 1911, but other makes and designs that use a trigger
safety.

Jeff Cooper advocated Condition 1 whenever you carried (in his
opinion) the Only Pistol worth carrying -- a 1911.

Dan Mc

Roger[_4_]

March 29th 08, 04:05 AM

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:54:54 -0400, Roger >
wrote:

<Snip for brevity>
>They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
>don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
>or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides

Some one remarked about this statement and I can't find it now.
However I stand by it as phrased.

Except for concrete and/or brick veneer, the walls of a house consist
of a 3/8 or 1/2 piece of plaster board over studs on either 16" or
larger centers plus insulation. The outside wall is a layer of
insulation you could easily stick your fist through covered by either
wood or vinyl siding. Unless you hit one of the studs, a 9mm which is
noted for it's penetrating abilities can go through a lot of material
like that.

Like others I'd suggest the frangible hollow points. which *might*
make it to the first neighbors house.

As to the1" at 20 yards, I've shot a lot of handguns that couldn't do
that from a rest. As for me, guns aside, I've never been able to do
that with any hand gun.

>between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
>night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
>My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
>better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

>
>
>
>
>>
>>Dan Mc
>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 10:47 AM

On Mar 28, 8:15 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
> No, central ... Tioga County. Erie is NW PA.

Oops... thought you said NW but I see I read wrong.

That's beautiful country -- and some good hunting and fishing!

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 11:05 AM

On Mar 29, 12:05 am, Roger > wrote:

> Some one remarked about this statement and I can't find it now.
> However I stand by it as phrased.
>
> Except for concrete and/or brick veneer, the walls of a house consist
> of a 3/8 or 1/2 piece of plaster board over studs on either 16" or
> larger centers plus insulation. The outside wall is a layer of
> insulation you could easily stick your fist through covered by either
> wood or vinyl siding. Unless you hit one of the studs, a 9mm which is
> noted for it's penetrating abilities can go through a lot of material
> like that.

You must have some mighty big heating bills.

Most newer balloon frame houses also have a layer of 1/2" to 3/4" OD
particle board on the exterior walls upon which to hang the siding.

Older houses (<1960) used even more dense material.

And the only thing that makes a 9 mm round "penetrating" is a Full
Metal Jacket (FMJ). Use a modern hollow point (such as a Speer Gold
Dot) and I doubt a 9 mm will make it through an interior wall without
losing significant energy.

I think you have fallen prey to anti-gun rantings.

The fact is that the impact of a 9mm bullet --at muzzle velocity -- is
equal to a *one pound* weight dropped from a height of 5.96 feet
(achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps) or a ten pound weight dropped from
a height of 0.72 inches (yes, that's 3/4 of an inch!)

Sorry, but that's not a whole lot of power.

As I said before -- a handgun is what you use to fight your way to
your long gun.

Dan Mc

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 12:50 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>> > The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
>> > over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
>> > those are the people actually practicing.
>>
>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>> less?
>
> You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
> can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>

How did we go from the side of a house to a 1' group? Danny?

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 12:55 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 6:14 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>>
>>> And the 9mm isn't even a real gun! :-)
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>> Here we go...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Actually, I'm downsizing the .40 to a 9mm -- I can shoot twice the
>> ammo for the price as a 45 and 40, can carry 15-16 rounds per mag, and
>> the guns are smaller and thus more readily concealed.
>>
>>
>> All Good things.
>>
>>
>> Dan Mc
>>
>
> Like a famous lawman once said, when I shoot a perp I don't just want to
> make him mad, I want to take him down. I consider the .45 to be marginal
> as a self-defense round, but my Super Blackhawk is a trifle unwieldy in
> close quarters. :-)
>
> However, if I were outside and the perps were hiding behind a car or such,
> then I'd take the SA any day. Only 6 shots, but seldom are more needed if
> every one does its job.
>

Give it up Matt. If this egghead is downsizing to a 9 from a 40 for self
defense, he is not even trainable.

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:06 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
>
Blather snip>

> Therefore the shotgun is the absolute best choice for home defense --
> point it at the bad guy, pull the trigger, cycle the action, and pull
> again. If you don't him him follow the trail of poop to find him.
>
> Though be sure the choke tubes are removed if you're using the gun for
> home defense.
>
> The short barrel's main advantage is that it prevents someone from
> grabbing the barrel as you round a corner.
>

Do you have any clue how close the pattern is on a shotgun at 15'. In the
confines of the averaged size home, you might as well be shooting slugs.

> As far as Gun clubs -- whew -- and you think GA is bad when it comes
> to winning over new members?
>
> I stopped by a local range/Gun Store near hear a while ago. The
> counter guy about wet his pants trying to show off how much he knew.
> When I asked him where he served (he was using all sorts of Military
> jargon) he mumbled something about a knee injury...
>
> Gun shops and clubs are infected with all the various types of
> humanity the rest of us are, but they seem particularly prone to
> attracting the know-it-all show off who lives for the moment he can
> show up some "newbie."

Sounds just like you.

>

> Shotgun pellets usually won't go very very through walls, but what
> handgun are you shooting that will penetrate "3, 4, or 5 houses down
> the street"?
>
> A high powered rifle bullet might pass that far, but a handgun?
>

No ****, maybe you should actually try it sometime. Tell me, how does the
energy of a 00 pellet compare to a .32 automatic?

>
>> When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
>> your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
>> and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)
>
> Training, training, and more training. If you're not willing to invest
> the time to attain and maintain proficiency, buy a shotgun.
>

Really bad advice.

>
>> After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
>> their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
>> sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
>> like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
>> conditions.
>
> I've shot in "fun houses" (Urban combat) plenty of times. Once you get
> the adrenaline going and you get momentarily deafened by the first
> shot, you're good to go. I never expereinced all the physiological
> trauma you're talking about with a 9 mm.

Of coarse not, a 9 mm is not a real gun.

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 01:07 PM

On Mar 29, 8:55 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:

> Give it up Matt. If this egghead is downsizing to a 9 from a 40 for self
> defense, he is not even trainable.

You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
between the two calibers.

And I'll be more than happy to show you a 1" group at 20 yards. You'll
need to hold something while I do.

Dan Mc

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:11 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 12:05 am, Roger > wrote:
>
>
> And the only thing that makes a 9 mm round "penetrating" is a Full
> Metal Jacket (FMJ). Use a modern hollow point (such as a Speer Gold
> Dot) and I doubt a 9 mm will make it through an interior wall without
> losing significant energy.

An interior wall? Two layers of sheetrock? You need some hands on
experience.

>
> I think you have fallen prey to anti-gun rantings.
>
> The fact is that the impact of a 9mm bullet --at muzzle velocity -- is
> equal to a *one pound* weight dropped from a height of 5.96 feet
> (achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps) or a ten pound weight dropped from
> a height of 0.72 inches (yes, that's 3/4 of an inch!)
>
> Sorry, but that's not a whole lot of power.
>
> As I said before -- a handgun is what you use to fight your way to
> your long gun.

You don't know much about gun fights either, do ya?

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 01:24 PM

On Mar 29, 9:11 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>
> You don't know much about gun fights either, do ya?

I haven't read as many Soldier of Fortune articles as you, apparently.

Jay Maynard

March 29th 08, 01:26 PM

On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
> You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
> between the two calibers.

One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation. Typically,
it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power. To
me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:28 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 8:55 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>
>> Give it up Matt. If this egghead is downsizing to a 9 from a 40 for self
>> defense, he is not even trainable.
>
> You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
> between the two calibers.
>

Why, you clearly wouldn't "get it".

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 01:31 PM

On Mar 29, 9:06 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:

> > Training, training, and more training. If you're not willing to invest
> > the time to attain and maintain proficiency, buy a shotgun.
>
> Really bad advice.

Obviously.

I'm sure you learned all you needed to during your 15 minutes reading
a magazine.

>
> Of coarse not, a 9 mm is not a real gun.

You meant to spell "course."

Interesting that one definition of "Coarse" is "Of low, common, or
inferior quality."

How apropos.

Why don't you stand right here and I'll test a 9mm on you to see if
you are right?

Finally....

You typify the nonsense-spouting gun-shop wannabes who haven't ever
had to return fire. You are a complete idiot whose opinions on
everything are unadulterated mental diarrhea.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say about flying and airplanes.

Dan Mc

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:32 PM

"Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
>> You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
>> between the two calibers.
>
> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation.
> Typically,
> it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
> I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power.
> To
> me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.

My thoughts exactly. If I didn't have a close friend the keeps me in .45
reloads, I would carry .40s. But I have seen too many training films and
police reports of someone taking as many as 4 rounds "center mass" from a
9mm, and just keep charging, and that just doesn't happen with a 40 or 45.

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:33 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 9:11 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>>
>> You don't know much about gun fights either, do ya?
>
> I haven't read as many Soldier of Fortune articles as you, apparently.
>

No, it's because all your training is military, not civilian or law
enforcement.

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:35 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 9:06 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>
>> > Training, training, and more training. If you're not willing to invest
>> > the time to attain and maintain proficiency, buy a shotgun.
>>
>> Really bad advice.
>
> Obviously.
>
> I'm sure you learned all you needed to during your 15 minutes reading
> a magazine.
>
>
>>
>> Of coarse not, a 9 mm is not a real gun.
>
>
> You meant to spell "course."
>
> Interesting that one definition of "Coarse" is "Of low, common, or
> inferior quality."
>
> How apropos.
>
> Why don't you stand right here and I'll test a 9mm on you to see if
> you are right?
>
> Finally....
>
> You typify the nonsense-spouting gun-shop wannabes who haven't ever
> had to return fire. You are a complete idiot whose opinions on
> everything are unadulterated mental diarrhea.
>
> I can't wait to hear what you have to say about flying and airplanes.
>
>

Sorry wanna be. I dont' train the clueless.

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 01:44 PM

On Mar 29, 9:26 am, Jay Maynard >
wrote:

> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation. Typically,
> it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
> I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power. To
> me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.

You are confusing "power" with "ability to stop an assailant."

If all we wanted was "power," a 20 lb sledgehammer swung rapidly would
do quite nicely.

But sledgehammers are hard to conceal, don't provide very quick follow
ups, and have a very limited range.

The IPSC is biased towards the .45, thus the "power factor"
requirement. That's fine -- they can set any parameters they want --
IPSC is a game -- but don't take that requirement as an absolute
definition of effectiveness.

It isn't.

Read the FBI report which argues this point quite well:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Sadly, the 9mm has proven its effectiveness on many, many occasions.
The V Tech shooter killed 32 people with a .22-caliber Walther P22 and
a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19.

What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
Meth, etc.

If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
fast.

But MOST civilians don't have this threat as part of their normal
lives.

Thus what really matters is your mission profile -- your own
capabilities, your exposure, your risks, your local jursidiction
requirements, etc.

Define that, THEN make your choice of weapon.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 01:45 PM

On Mar 29, 9:32 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:

> My thoughts exactly. If I didn't have a close friend the keeps me in .45
> reloads, I would carry .40s. But I have seen too many training films and
> police reports of someone taking as many as 4 rounds "center mass" from a
> 9mm, and just keep charging, and that just doesn't happen with a 40 or 45

Now you've exposed yourself completely.

Idiot.

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 01:55 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 9:26 am, Jay Maynard >
> wrote:
>

Bull**** snip>

>
> Read the FBI report which argues this point quite well:
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
>
> Sadly, the 9mm has proven its effectiveness on many, many occasions.
> The V Tech shooter killed 32 people with a .22-caliber Walther P22 and
> a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19.
>

Oh yeah, I forgot the V-Tech shooting completely. Help me remember, what
were they shooting back?

> What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
> communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
> through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
> Meth, etc.
>
> If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
> fast.

Oh yeah, and we will never have to shoot dopers in self defense.

>
> But MOST civilians don't have this threat as part of their normal
> lives.

Yeah, if they are just shooting targets, they could use a 9mm or a Daisy.

>
> Thus what really matters is your mission profile -- your own
> capabilities, your exposure, your risks, your local jursidiction
> requirements, etc.
>

No, what really matters is your medication. Now go take it.

Jay Maynard

March 29th 08, 01:57 PM

On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
> What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
> communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
> through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
> Meth, etc.
>
> If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
> fast.

I spent 17 years in volunteer EMS. I dealt with plenty of folks high on
stuff, enough to last me a lifetime. I know what they're capable of. If I'm
trying to defend myself against the risks of a perp in my house, why would I
want to run the risk that he's going to be hopped up on something? Why make
that compromise?

The goal of using lethal force in self-defense is to end the attack. More
power is going to help that cause much more effectively than multiple
rounds. Yes, the "one-shot stop" is often a myth, but why handicap yourself?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 02:37 PM

On Mar 29, 9:55 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:

> No, what really matters is your medication. Now go take it.

Maybe you won't notice that the only reason I reply to your posts is
to bait you into a reply.

Each time you expose what we all suspect -- That you are completely
and hopelessly stupid.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 29th 08, 02:41 PM

On Mar 29, 9:57 am, Jay Maynard >
wrote:
>
> The goal of using lethal force in self-defense is to end the attack. More
> power is going to help that cause much more effectively than multiple
> rounds. Yes, the "one-shot stop" is often a myth, but why handicap yourself?

That's fine. If your mission profile requires a cannon, drag around a
cannon.

But don't confuse "more power" with "stopping power" cause it just
ain't so.

And if you have a drugged up prep in your house why confront him with
a handgun when a shotgun is available?

This bears repeating -- a handgun is the least effective, least
powerful firearm in the civilian arsenal. The only reaosn we have
handguns is for the portability, period.

If you are in defensive mode (such as in your house), you should be
reaching for a shotgun, with the handgun as backup.

Why not a rifle? Penetration, blast, and long barrel.

Dan Mc

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 03:02 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message news:01050cb1-2bf4-> a handgun
when a shotgun is available?
>
> This bears repeating -- a handgun is the least effective, least
> powerful firearm in the civilian arsenal. The only reaosn we have
> handguns is for the portability, period.
>

No, it bears repeating, Dan is a clueless twit on the subject.

Maxwell[_2_]

March 29th 08, 03:03 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mar 29, 9:55 am, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>
>> No, what really matters is your medication. Now go take it.
>
> Maybe you won't notice that the only reason I reply to your posts is
> to bait you into a reply.
>
> Each time you expose what we all suspect -- That you are completely
> and hopelessly stupid.
>

Someday you will grow up and learn, you're the one dropping your pants here.

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 03:15 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 28, 8:15 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>> No, central ... Tioga County. Erie is NW PA.
>
> Oops... thought you said NW but I see I read wrong.
>
> That's beautiful country -- and some good hunting and fishing!

That's a fact. And the people here know how to shoot. And some of us
also know how to fly! :-)

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 03:18 PM

Maxwell wrote:
> "Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
>>> You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
>>> between the two calibers.
>> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation.
>> Typically,
>> it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
>> I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power.
>> To
>> me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.
>
> My thoughts exactly. If I didn't have a close friend the keeps me in .45
> reloads, I would carry .40s. But I have seen too many training films and
> police reports of someone taking as many as 4 rounds "center mass" from a
> 9mm, and just keep charging, and that just doesn't happen with a 40 or 45.

That's where I live the .44 mag. Even a perp with body armor will feel
significant pain from a handloaded .44 placed properly. A 9mm will
probably sting a little...

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 03:20 PM

Dan wrote:
> On Mar 29, 9:26 am, Jay Maynard >
> wrote:
>
>> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation. Typically,
>> it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
>> I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power. To
>> me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.
>
> You are confusing "power" with "ability to stop an assailant."
>
> If all we wanted was "power," a 20 lb sledgehammer swung rapidly would
> do quite nicely.
>
> But sledgehammers are hard to conceal, don't provide very quick follow
> ups, and have a very limited range.
>
> The IPSC is biased towards the .45, thus the "power factor"
> requirement. That's fine -- they can set any parameters they want --
> IPSC is a game -- but don't take that requirement as an absolute
> definition of effectiveness.
>
> It isn't.
>
> Read the FBI report which argues this point quite well:
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
>
> Sadly, the 9mm has proven its effectiveness on many, many occasions.
> The V Tech shooter killed 32 people with a .22-caliber Walther P22 and
> a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19.
>
> What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
> communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
> through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
> Meth, etc.
>
> If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
> fast.
>
> But MOST civilians don't have this threat as part of their normal
> lives.
>
> Thus what really matters is your mission profile -- your own
> capabilities, your exposure, your risks, your local jursidiction
> requirements, etc.
>
> Define that, THEN make your choice of weapon.

I agree. I chose a .44 Mag backup up by my little .45 Government Model.
:-)

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 03:21 PM

Jay Maynard wrote:
> On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
>> What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
>> communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
>> through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
>> Meth, etc.
>>
>> If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
>> fast.
>
> I spent 17 years in volunteer EMS. I dealt with plenty of folks high on
> stuff, enough to last me a lifetime. I know what they're capable of. If I'm
> trying to defend myself against the risks of a perp in my house, why would I
> want to run the risk that he's going to be hopped up on something? Why make
> that compromise?
>
> The goal of using lethal force in self-defense is to end the attack. More
> power is going to help that cause much more effectively than multiple
> rounds. Yes, the "one-shot stop" is often a myth, but why handicap yourself?

It is only a myth if you don't use enough gun. Very few can take a .44
mag and keep on charging. Maybe with body armor, but even then I
suspect it will get their attention.

Martin Hotze[_2_]

March 29th 08, 06:19 PM

Dan schrieb:

> The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:

> Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

or even better: stay away from weapons.

#m

Matt Whiting

March 29th 08, 09:43 PM

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Dan schrieb:
>
>> The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
>> Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>
>
> or even better: stay away from weapons.

In your case, I agree you should.

Big John

March 29th 08, 09:58 PM

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>> > The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
>> > over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
>> > those are the people actually practicing.
>>
>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>> less?
>
>You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
>can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>
>I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.
>
>In the meantime try posting something of value.
>
>
>Dan Mc
**********************************************

Dan

Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
center.

Brought home and tacked to front door with a sign that said "This
house is protected".

Lots of comments but no break ins.

Big John

Matt W. Barrow

March 30th 08, 12:22 AM

Big John" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
> wrote:
>
> Dan
>
> Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
> one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
> center.

At what range? Seven yards? 50 feet?

>
> Brought home and tacked to front door with a sign that said "This
> house is protected".
>
> Lots of comments but no break ins.

Not too many burglars are suicidal! :~)

I used to have a sign in the front yard said, "Security by ADT", to which my
son attached a second sign, "Backed up by Mossberg".

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 02:59 AM

On Mar 29, 11:15 am, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
> That's a fact. And the people here know how to shoot. And some of us
> also know how to fly! :-)

I'm sure they do -- I'm near Pittsburgh so on opening day the hoardes
swarm down...

One local went through TWO BOXES of .270 ammo on opening day -- yet
didn't get a deer.

Go figure.

Tioga county borders the West branch, i think.

My son and I canoed the West Branch from Clearfield to Sunbury, then
there to Harrisburg. Until Renovo it's some gorgeous country.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 03:00 AM

On Mar 29, 5:58 pm, Big John > wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
> >> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
> >> > The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
> >> > over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
> >> > those are the people actually practicing.
>
> >> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
> >> less?
>
> >You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
> >can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>
> >I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.
>
> >In the meantime try posting something of value.
>
> >Dan Mc
>
> **********************************************
>
> Dan
>
> Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
> one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
> center.
>
> Brought home and tacked to front door with a sign that said "This
> house is protected".
>
> Lots of comments but no break ins.
>
> Big John

That's the way to do it!

We're fortunate in that we have a few acres so practice on our own
little pistol range. If we go up the hill behind us we can shoot
skeet.

We practice often enough that any locals who even think about coming
around move on to easier pickins.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:21 AM

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
>> You're such a genius -- Please do tell the significant differences
>> between the two calibers.
>
> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation.
> Typically, it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of
> 170 for .40 S&W. I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of
> increase in power. To me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between
> power and capacity.

I can;'t beleive you idiots are talking about what makes ya "more dead"

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:22 AM

Martin Hotze > wrote in news:fsm17k$k54$1
@kirk.hotze.com:

> Dan schrieb:
>
>> The fundamental rules for safe gun handling are:
>
>> Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.
>
>
> or even better: stay away from weapons.
>
> #m
>

What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to be safe,
for instance?

Bertie

Matt Whiting

March 30th 08, 03:30 AM

Big John wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>>>> The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
>>>> over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
>>>> those are the people actually practicing.
>>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>>> less?
>> You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
>> can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>>
>> I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.
>>
>> In the meantime try posting something of value.
>>
>>
>> Dan Mc
> **********************************************
>
> Dan
>
> Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
> one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
> center.
>
> Brought home and tacked to front door with a sign that said "This
> house is protected".
>
> Lots of comments but no break ins.
>
> Big John

I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the caption
says:

"I don't dial 911"

I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.

Matt

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 03:35 AM

On Mar 29, 10:21 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> I can;'t beleive you idiots are talking about what makes ya "more dead"
>
> Bertie

Nope, not even the point.

If you shoot someone with a 22, they can do a great deal of harm
before they even know they have been hit.

With a larger, more high velocity caliber, they will probably stop
doing whatever it is that they are doing -- like breaking down the
door to your daughter's bedroom, carjacking your wife's car, or coming
at you with a knife.

So it does matter.

If you don't carry, that's fine.

Some of us prefer to and some have more reason than others.

Kinda like flying.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 03:39 AM

On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to be safe,
> for instance?
>
> Bertie

Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of earth
as back stops.

Stay away from the business end and you're safe.

And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years) have
to do with it?

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:44 AM

Dan > wrote in news:2e952ccc-9f9e-4717-b469-
:

> On Mar 29, 10:21 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> I can;'t beleive you idiots are talking about what makes ya "more
dead"
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Nope, not even the point.
>

Depends onwehether you're the one being shot at.

It might not be the point for you, but there's two ends of a gun.

> If you shoot someone with a 22, they can do a great deal of harm
> before they even know they have been hit.
>
> With a larger, more high velocity caliber, they will probably stop
> doing whatever it is that they are doing -- like breaking down the
> door to your daughter's bedroom, carjacking your wife's car, or coming
> at you with a knife.
>
> So it does matter.
>
> If you don't carry, that's fine.

I have guns. been through this before. With maxwell and matt, s a matter
of fact.
>
> Some of us prefer to and some have more reason than others.
>
> Kinda like flying.
>

Except I kinda lost track of th elast time I pointed an airplane at
someone with intent.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:45 AM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to be
>> safe, for instance?
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of earth
> as back stops.
>
> Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years) have
> to do with it?

It was a PKB insult.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:46 AM

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> Big John wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy > wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
>>>>> The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a
>>>>> house over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any
>>>>> range. And those are the people actually practicing.
>>>> Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
>>>> less?
>>> You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
>>> can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?
>>>
>>> I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.
>>>
>>> In the meantime try posting something of value.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan Mc
>> **********************************************
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
>> one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
>> center.
>>
>> Brought home and tacked to front door with a sign that said "This
>> house is protected".
>>
>> Lots of comments but no break ins.
>>
>> Big John
>
> I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the
> caption says:
>
>
> "I don't dial 911"
>
> I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.

Well, on the plus side, now you know how the handicapped feel.

Bertie

Martin Hotze[_2_]

March 30th 08, 11:58 AM

Matt Whiting schrieb:

> I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the caption
> says:
>
>
> "I don't dial 911"
>
> I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.

Maybe this was not because of the shirt (alone).

> Matt

#m

Matt Whiting

March 30th 08, 01:55 PM

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Matt Whiting schrieb:
>
>> I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the
>> caption says:
>>
>>
>> "I don't dial 911"
>>
>> I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.
>
> Maybe this was not because of the shirt (alone).

I hope your day job isn't as a comedian.

Jay Maynard

March 30th 08, 02:44 PM

On 2008-03-29, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 29, 9:57 am, Jay Maynard >
> wrote:
>> The goal of using lethal force in self-defense is to end the attack. More
>> power is going to help that cause much more effectively than multiple
>> rounds. Yes, the "one-shot stop" is often a myth, but why handicap yourself?
> That's fine. If your mission profile requires a cannon, drag around a
> cannon.

A Glock 27 is not what I'd call a cannon. It's quite concealable (not as
much as a Seecamp, but what is?), and carries only one fewer round than the
9mm version (the Glock 26).

> And if you have a drugged up prep in your house why confront him with
> a handgun when a shotgun is available?

Because I don't own one, and have never fired one, and am comfortable and
reasonably proficient with a handgun.

> This bears repeating -- a handgun is the least effective, least
> powerful firearm in the civilian arsenal. The only reaosn we have
> handguns is for the portability, period.

That's like saying the only reason we have airplanes is for flying.

> If you are in defensive mode (such as in your house), you should be
> reaching for a shotgun, with the handgun as backup.

A shotgun is nowhere near as handy. That can make a dramatic difference in a
lot of circumstances.

> Why not a rifle? Penetration, blast, and long barrel.

This I will agree with, but note that the third applies equally to shotguns.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 05:43 PM

On Mar 30, 3:45*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote :
>
> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to be
> >> safe, for instance?
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of earth
> > as back stops.
>
> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years) have
> > to do with it?
>
> It was a PKB insult.
>

I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
actually fly and they have already had children.

Cheers

Martin Hotze[_2_]

March 30th 08, 06:23 PM

Matt Whiting schrieb:
>>> I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the
>>> caption says:
>>>
>>>
>>> "I don't dial 911"
>>>
>>> I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.
>> Maybe this was not because of the shirt (alone).
>
> I hope your day job isn't as a comedian.

there was nothing funny about it or intended to be funny.

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 06:23 PM

On Mar 30, 12:43 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> Cheers

Get ready to poop your panties -- We have three children, all grown
now, and each learned to load, unload and shoot a firearm before he/
she was 5.

The bloom was off the rose and I had no worries about curious little
hands getting into trouble with firearms.

Of the 3, my daughter is the best shot with a handgun -- almost
uncanny.

My son can shoot anything -- from a traditional stick and string
longbow to a shotgun to a rifle as good (and in most cases better)
than I can.

Sorry to shock you.

Oh, and by the way -- none has had a DUI, run-ins with the law, or any
other sign of aberrant behavior. They are each productive, happy, well-
adjusted people, and I couldn't be more proud.

Dan Mc

Martin Hotze[_2_]

March 30th 08, 06:24 PM

WingFlaps schrieb:

> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> actually fly and they have already had children.

*hehe* as most of them are on the right side of the pond this is OK with me.

#m

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 06:33 PM

On Mar 30, 12:43 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> actually fly and they have already had children.

I flew 5 hours yesterday, in fact. It was quite the perfect day for
it.

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 06:34 PM

On Mar 31, 6:23*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 12:43 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> > I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> > nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> > actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> > Cheers
>
> Get ready to poop your panties -- We have three children, all grown
> now, and each learned to load, unload and shoot a firearm before he/
> she was 5.
>
> The bloom was off the rose and I had no worries about curious little
> hands getting into trouble with firearms.
>
> Of the 3, my daughter is the best shot with a handgun -- almost
> uncanny.
>
> My son can shoot anything -- from a traditional stick and string
> longbow to a shotgun to a rifle as good (and in most cases better)
> than I can.
>
> Sorry to shock you.
>
> Oh, and by the way -- none has had a DUI, run-ins with the law, or any
> other sign of aberrant behavior. They are each productive, happy, well-
> adjusted people, and I couldn't be more proud.
>

You have been a lucky man, but if you gamble you will lose
eventually.

Cheers

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 06:37 PM

On Mar 30, 1:34 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> You have been a lucky man, but if you gamble you will lose
> eventually.

Is that some sort of inane threat?

"Luck" has nothing to do with it, moron.

Dan Mc

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 06:43 PM

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 07:16 PM

On Mar 30, 1:43 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> No worries -for a 5 year old having access to loaded weapons?
>
> Now having shot yourself in the foot, do you not see how dangerous
> playing with guns is?
>
> Cheers

You really are an utter and complete ass.

Let me clear it up for you, stupid:

All three children learned to load, unload, and fire, and the rules of
firearm safety.

If you knew those rules you wouldn't make such pathetically idiotic
comments.

I'm not sure what planet you live on, but in our free country some of
us choose to keep and bear arms. I'm grateful that's in our
constitution and will support all efforts to ensure the continued
interpretation as an individual right.

Now maybe in your sissy-ass world you aren't allowed to play with such
dangerous things. I suppose the Government provides your blankie as
well?

Most of us realize that rights come with responsibilities, and those
of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.

Dan Mc

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 07:52 PM

On Mar 31, 6:37*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 1:34 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
>
>
> > You have been a lucky man, but if you gamble you will lose
> > eventually.
>
> Is that some sort of inane threat?
>
> "Luck" has nothing to do with it, moron.
>

Only if the threat is perceived as coming from truth. Yes, your family
has been lucky that there has not been a firearms accident. If there
were no guns at all in your household the probability of an accident
would be even lower.

Cheers

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 07:58 PM

On Mar 30, 2:52 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

> Only if the threat is perceived as coming from truth. Yes, your family
> has been lucky that there has not been a firearms accident. If there
> were no guns at all in your household the probability of an accident
> would be even lower.

I'll say it again since you have a hard time understanding -- "luck"
has nothing to do with it.

Safety is the result of training and knowledge and the exercise of
both.

How do you suppose to learn safe firearms handling without firearms?

"Accidents" are the end of a chain of events. We can eliminate
accidents be applying judgment based on training and experience.

So you see, avoiding firearms does not guarantee safety.

In fact, familiarity and knowledge breeds confidence.

Something you obviously know nothing about.

Dan Mc

Big John

March 30th 08, 08:00 PM

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Dan >
wrote:

>On Mar 29, 9:26 am, Jay Maynard >
>wrote:
>
>> One need look no farther than the IPSC power factor calculation. Typically,
>> it's around 120 to 125 for 9mm Parabellum, and upwards of 170 for .40 S&W.
>> I'll happily trade one or two rounds for that kind of increase in power. To
>> me, .40 S&W represents the best tradeoff between power and capacity.
>
>You are confusing "power" with "ability to stop an assailant."
>
>If all we wanted was "power," a 20 lb sledgehammer swung rapidly would
>do quite nicely.
>
>But sledgehammers are hard to conceal, don't provide very quick follow
>ups, and have a very limited range.
>
>The IPSC is biased towards the .45, thus the "power factor"
>requirement. That's fine -- they can set any parameters they want --
>IPSC is a game -- but don't take that requirement as an absolute
>definition of effectiveness.
>
>It isn't.
>
>Read the FBI report which argues this point quite well:
>http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
>
>Sadly, the 9mm has proven its effectiveness on many, many occasions.
>The V Tech shooter killed 32 people with a .22-caliber Walther P22 and
>a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19.
>
>What drove the FBI, DEA, ICE, SF, and other LE and Military
>communities to bigger, faster cartridges was the requirement to shoot
>through glass, car doors, etc and to take down perps high on PCP,
>Meth, etc.
>
>If those situations are in your mission profile, get something big and
>fast.
>
>But MOST civilians don't have this threat as part of their normal
>lives.
>
>Thus what really matters is your mission profile -- your own
>capabilities, your exposure, your risks, your local jursidiction
>requirements, etc.
>
>Define that, THEN make your choice of weapon.
>
>
>Dan Mc
>
******************************************

How come SF's were re-issued 45's in Afghanistan vs the 9mm?

Big John

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 08:02 PM

On Mar 31, 7:16*am, Dan > wrote:

> Now maybe in your sissy-ass world you aren't allowed to play with such
> dangerous things. I suppose the Government provides your blankie as
> well?

Yes we are a country of sissies who can be given blalnkies when we
need them. We are also allowed to play with guns and even more
dangerous things. But, sometimes extreme foolishness is legislated
against. One example is that it is illegal to keep a loaded weapon in
the home.

Cheers

Big John

March 30th 08, 08:23 PM

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:22:48 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
> wrote:

----clip----

Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
center.

At what range? Seven yards? 50 feet?

----clip----

************************************************** **
Don't remember, as a number of years ago, and haven't been out since I
got my "two" pacemakers but probably 50 feet (standard pistol range)

As I've posted before, I shoot expert with the 45.

I have an air pistol with the weight, trigger pull and feel of my 45
that I use in back yard to keep current.

My carry is a Kel-Tec 32 with a groin holster. Would have to use a
head shot with that small of caliber.

Big John.

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 08:30 PM

On Mar 30, 3:23 pm, Big John > wrote:
>
> My carry is a Kel-Tec 32 with a groin holster. Would have to use a
> head shot with that small of caliber.
>
> Big John.

That's a nice handy carry piece.

Most people don't realize that you don't have to shoot for a carry gun
to be effective.

First, since you have it, you may be more confident as you go about
your business.

Thugs don't like confident.

You may be more circumspect about where you go since you're carrying.

Thereby avoiding places thugs frequent.

If approached, you only need say the magic words -- "I'm armed."

Thugs don't like that.

If they continue you draw your piece and aim it center of mass.

Thugs don't like being dropped.

Therefore many concealed carry citizens go through their entire lives
without ever firing a shot.

Dan Mc

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 08:41 PM

On Mar 31, 7:58*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2:52 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> > Only if the threat is perceived as coming from truth. Yes, your family
> > has been lucky that there has not been a firearms accident. If there
> > were no guns at all in your household the probability of an accident
> > would be even lower.
>
> I'll say it again since you have a hard time understanding -- "luck"
> has nothing to do with it.
>
> Safety is the result of training and knowledge and the exercise of
> both.
>
> How do you suppose to learn safe firearms handling without firearms?
>
> "Accidents" are the end of a chain of events. We can eliminate
> accidents be applying judgment based on training and experience.
>
> So you see, avoiding firearms does not guarantee safety.
>

Of course not, but not looking at guns reduces the risk that one will
discharge at you. Now let me explain what luck is to you as you don't
seem to know it. Luck is when the outcome is more favourable than
might have been expected from probability alone. A simple example is
the gamble who manages to leave the casino before he loses all his
money. We can define a cost for an event A as Pa.Ca where Pa is the
probability that an event will occur and Ca the cost of that even for
an individual. If Ca is not large we can accept significant Pa and may
walk out of the casino after playing a bit -so to speak. But is Ca is
huge, such as the death of one's child than any Pa becomes
unacceptable. I choose to reduce Pa to near zero in so far as I can,
Your Pa is much much larger and would be even larger perhaps with less
care but it is, none the less, much larger than mine. I do not think
you would grieve less for the loss of your child than me so why do you
accept even introduce a higher risk?

Cheers

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 08:47 PM

On Mar 30, 3:41 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

> you would grieve less for the loss of your child than me so why do you
> accept even introduce a higher risk?
>
> Cheers

Thanks for the oversimplified statistical definition of "risk."

The fact remains -- familiarity, knowledge, judgment, and ability are
all inculcated and fostered by training.

In case you're unaware -- a fundamental tenant of "training" is
repetition.

Training in the proper use, maintenance, storage of firearms is a
continuing process.

And we use firearms for a variety of reasons -- target shooting, skeet
and trap, bird, small and large game hunting.

Apparently you don't have these wonderful outdoor activities in your
milquetoast world.

Dan Mc

WingFlaps

March 30th 08, 09:47 PM

On Mar 31, 8:47*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 3:41 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

>
> Apparently you don't have these wonderful outdoor activities in your
> milquetoast world.
>

WE have far more hunting, pig, deer bird per capita than you do but we
don't need loaded guns in the home to do this. Do you?

Cheers

Dan[_10_]

March 30th 08, 10:04 PM

On Mar 30, 4:47 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> WE have far more hunting, pig, deer bird per capita than you do but we
> don't need loaded guns in the home to do this. Do you?

And occurrences of forcible entry? Burglary? Home invasion?
carjacking?

We sure as hell do.

Dan Mc

Matt W. Barrow

March 30th 08, 11:39 PM

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:22:48 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
> > wrote:
>
> ----clip----
>
> Went to range and shot the center out of the bulls eye with my 45 and
> one box of reloaded shells. 90% of rounds were within 4 inches of
> center.
>
> At what range? Seven yards? 50 feet?
>
> ----clip----
>
> ************************************************** **
> Don't remember, as a number of years ago, and haven't been out since I
> got my "two" pacemakers but probably 50 feet (standard pistol range)

That's pretty decent, particularly when using (as I think you said you did)
an off the shelf 1911.

Does the pacemaker prevent you from shooting the real stuff anymore? How
about some light reloads?

> As I've posted before, I shoot expert with the 45.
>
> I have an air pistol with the weight, trigger pull and feel of my 45
> that I use in back yard to keep current.
>
> My carry is a Kel-Tec 32 with a groin holster. Would have to use a
> head shot with that small of caliber.

Yes, a 32 ACP is more likely to just **** them off, but in 90% of the cases,
just the threat of resistance turns the macho bad guys into shrill sissies.

Matt Whiting

March 30th 08, 11:53 PM

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Matt Whiting schrieb:
>>>> I still have a t-shirt showing a hand holding a handgun and the
>>>> caption says:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I don't dial 911"
>>>>
>>>> I used to draw some strange looks when I wore that in public.
>>> Maybe this was not because of the shirt (alone).
>>
>> I hope your day job isn't as a comedian.
>
> there was nothing funny about it or intended to be funny.

Yes, it was just stupid.

Matt Whiting

March 30th 08, 11:55 PM

Martin Hotze wrote:
> WingFlaps schrieb:
>
>> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
>> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
>> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> *hehe* as most of them are on the right side of the pond this is OK with
> me.
>
> #m

Yes, we are on the left side of the pond which is indeed the right side!

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:25 AM

WingFlaps > wrote in
:

> On Mar 30, 3:45*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote
>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to
>> >> be safe, for instance?
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
>> > earth as back stops.
>>
>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>
>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
>> > have to do with it?
>>
>> It was a PKB insult.
>>
>
> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> actually fly and they have already had children.

Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
thread.

Bertie

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 02:33 AM

On Mar 31, 2:25*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote :
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 3:45*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> Dan > wrote
> >> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> > m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to
> >> >> be safe, for instance?
>
> >> >> Bertie
>
> >> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
> >> > earth as back stops.
>
> >> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> >> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
> >> > have to do with it?
>
> >> It was a PKB insult.
>
> > I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> > nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> > actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
> thread.
>
But at least they'll do it safely.

Cheers

Maxwell[_2_]

March 31st 08, 02:34 AM

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> WingFlaps > wrote in
> :
>
>> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> Dan > wrote
>>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
>> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>
>>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to
>>> >> be safe, for instance?
>>>
>>> >> Bertie
>>>
>>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
>>> > earth as back stops.
>>>
>>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>>
>>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
>>> > have to do with it?
>>>
>>> It was a PKB insult.
>>>
>>
>> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
>> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
>> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
>
> Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
> thread.
>

You're both clueless.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:36 AM

Dan > wrote in news:c8ed865b-e59e-4436-ac67-
:

> On Mar 30, 1:43 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>>
>> No worries -for a 5 year old having access to loaded weapons?
>>
>> Now having shot yourself in the foot, do you not see how dangerous
>> playing with guns is?
>>
>> Cheers
>
> You really are an utter and complete ass.
>
> Let me clear it up for you, stupid:
>
> All three children learned to load, unload, and fire, and the rules of
> firearm safety.
>
> If you knew those rules you wouldn't make such pathetically idiotic
> comments.
>
> I'm not sure what planet you live on, but in our free country some of
> us choose to keep and bear arms. I'm grateful that's in our
> constitution and will support all efforts to ensure the continued
> interpretation as an individual right.
>
> Now maybe in your sissy-ass world you aren't allowed to play with such
> dangerous things. I suppose the Government provides your blankie as
> well?
>
> Most of us realize that rights come with responsibilities, and those
> of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.

And yet thousands of them die each year of gunshots

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:38 AM

WingFlaps > wrote in
:

> On Mar 31, 2:25*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> WingFlaps > wrote
>> innews:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-03804
> :
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 30, 3:45*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >> Dan > wrote
>> >> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
>> > m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact
>> >> >> to be safe, for instance?
>>
>> >> >> Bertie
>>
>> >> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
>> >> > earth as back stops.
>>
>> >> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>
>> >> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
>> >> > have to do with it?
>>
>> >> It was a PKB insult.
>>
>> > I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
>> > nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them
>> > may actually fly and they have already had children.
>>
>> Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
>> thread.
>>
> But at least they'll do it safely.
goes without saying. that's what the NRA is for.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:38 AM

"Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote in news:AcXHj.101523$Ft5.5652
@newsfe15.lga:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> WingFlaps > wrote in
>> news:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-0380494f1cd8
@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>> Dan > wrote
>>>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
>>> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact
to
>>>> >> be safe, for instance?
>>>>
>>>> >> Bertie
>>>>
>>>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
>>>> > earth as back stops.
>>>>
>>>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>>>
>>>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
>>>> > have to do with it?
>>>>
>>>> It was a PKB insult.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
>>> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them
may
>>> actually fly and they have already had children.
>>
>>
>> Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
>> thread.
>>
>
> You're both clueless.
>
>
>

No, i'm not.

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 02:50 AM

On Mar 30, 9:36 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote in news:c8ed865b-e59e-4436-ac67-

> > Most of us realize that rights come with responsibilities, and those
> > of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.
>
> And yet thousands of them die each year of gunshots
>
> Bertie

And if you review who is being shot and who is doing the shooting, the
vast majority are not being inculcated much of anything except thug/
gang/street-cred behavior.

The kids who shoot NRA events, take Hunter ed classes, and learn to
shoot on a range do not fit the profile you suggest.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 02:55 AM

On Mar 30, 9:38 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> goes without saying. that's what the NRA is for.
>
> Bertie

The NRA exists to foster responsible gun ownership, promote firearms
safety, and protect the 2nd amendment

The NRA is a leader in firearms education. Over 50,000 Certified
Instructors train about 750,000 gun owners a year. Courses are
available in basic rifle, pistol, shotgun, muzzleloading firearms,
personal protection, and even ammunition reloading.

Since the establishment of the Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Program in
1988, more than 12 million pre-kindergarten to sixth grade children
have learned that if they see a firearm in an unsupervised situation,
they should "STOP. DON'T TOUCH. LEAVE THE AREA. TELL AN ADULT."

I'm happy to be a member (which member roles included JFK, RFK, James
Earl Jones, and a few million others).

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:59 AM

Dan > wrote in news:af1cfde6-ff8f-4d9a-b309-
:

> On Mar 30, 9:36 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote in news:c8ed865b-e59e-4436-ac67-
>
>> > Most of us realize that rights come with responsibilities, and
those
>> > of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.
>>
>> And yet thousands of them die each year of gunshots
>>
>> Bertie
>
> And if you review who is being shot and who is doing the shooting,

I expect, though there may be some bizarre exceptions, that the guy
holding the gun is the shooter, and that the person eing shot is withing
a few egress of the line of sight when the gun is discharged.

the
> vast majority are not being inculcated much of anything except thug/
> gang/street-cred behavior.

And they made their own guns?

>
> The kids who shoot NRA events, take Hunter ed classes, and learn to
> shoot on a range do not fit the profile you suggest.
>

I wasn't suggesting any sort of profile at all.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 03:00 AM

Dan > wrote in news:f2897dfa-53b8-4465-8e5a-
:

> On Mar 30, 9:38 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> goes without saying. that's what the NRA is for.
>>
>> Bertie
>
>
> The NRA exists to foster responsible gun ownership, promote firearms
> safety, and protect the 2nd amendment

I know what it does.

>
> The NRA is a leader in firearms education. Over 50,000 Certified
> Instructors train about 750,000 gun owners a year. Courses are
> available in basic rifle, pistol, shotgun, muzzleloading firearms,
> personal protection, and even ammunition reloading.
>
> Since the establishment of the Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Program in
> 1988, more than 12 million pre-kindergarten to sixth grade children
> have learned that if they see a firearm in an unsupervised situation,
> they should "STOP. DON'T TOUCH. LEAVE THE AREA. TELL AN ADULT."

Wow, and mother Theresa got the Nobel. Where;s justice in this world?

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 03:02 AM

On Mar 30, 9:59 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> >> > of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.
>
> >> And yet thousands of them die each year of gunshots

>
> I wasn't suggesting any sort of profile at all.
>
> Bertie

Sure you did -- you said "them" which referenced my term "children."

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 03:03 AM

On Mar 30, 10:00 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

>
> Wow, and mother Theresa got the Nobel. Where;s justice in this world?
>
> Bertie

So did Al Gore, thereby we know there's none.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 03:07 AM

Dan > wrote in news:0a420d96-4e33-45fc-a18f-1eb2faa96a82
@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 30, 9:59 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> >> > of us who care about our children inculcate that from birth.
>>
>> >> And yet thousands of them die each year of gunshots
>
>>
>> I wasn't suggesting any sort of profile at all.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Sure you did -- you said "them" which referenced my term "children."
>

Yes, but I meant all children.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 03:08 AM

Dan > wrote in news:ea766564-4313-4c06-b529-aee1cca5b5b5
@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 30, 10:00 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>>
>> Wow, and mother Theresa got the Nobel. Where;s justice in this world?
>>
>> Bertie
>
> So did Al Gore, thereby we know there's none.
>

Who's "we"?

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 03:12 AM

On Mar 30, 10:07 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Dan > wrote in news:0a420d96-4e33-45fc-a18f-1eb2faa96a82

>
> > Sure you did -- you said "them" which referenced my term "children."
>
> Yes, but I meant all children.
>
> Bertie

Right... which is why I said a segment of that group known as
"children" is disproportional representation in the "shootings" --
both shooter and victim.

The numbers are high because we have an unheralded war going on in our
inner cities between gangs over drug turf. Don't believe it? Check the
NY Times, Washington post, Atlantic Monthly -- none are conservative
by any stretch. But all have reported on the scourge of inner city
violence.

Those "kids" aren't being taken to ranges, hunter ed classes, or
shooting competition at Cam Perry.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 03:15 AM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 30, 10:07 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Dan > wrote in
>> news:0a420d96-4e33-45fc-a18f-1eb2faa96a82
>
>>
>> > Sure you did -- you said "them" which referenced my term
>> > "children."
>>
>> Yes, but I meant all children.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Right... which is why I said a segment of that group known as
> "children" is disproportional representation in the "shootings" --
> both shooter and victim.

But I didn't ifferentiate between whatever segment you'r talking about
and children as a whole.

I meant all children.

Children are children.

Bertie
>
>
>

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 03:25 AM

On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in 6.130...
>
>
>
> > WingFlaps > wrote in
> :
>
> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >>> Dan > wrote
> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to
> >>> >> be safe, for instance?
>
> >>> >> Bertie
>
> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
> >>> > earth as back stops.
>
> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
> >>> > have to do with it?
>
> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>
> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> >> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
> > thread.
>
> You're both clueless.

Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.

Cheers

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 03:29 AM

WingFlaps > wrote in
:

> On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>> messagenews:Xns9A72179E9FC52pis
> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > WingFlaps > wrote in
>> >news:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-0380494f1cd8
@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.co
>> >m:
>>
>> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> >>> Dan > wrote
>> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
>> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact
>> >>> >> to be safe, for instance?
>>
>> >>> >> Bertie
>>
>> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
>> >>> > earth as back stops.
>>
>> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>
>> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
>> >>> > have to do with it?
>>
>> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>>
>> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
>> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them
>> >> may actually fly and they have already had children.
>>
>> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
>> > thread.
>>
>> You're both clueless.
>
> Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.
>
> Cheers
>
To be fair, I have some over-ripe cheese that has more insight than he
could possibly imagine.

Bertie

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 04:11 AM

On Mar 31, 3:48*pm, Clark > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:06fbc3d7-2eac-421a-96ce-
> :
>
> > On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>
> messagenews:Xns9A72179E9FC52pis
>
> > ...
>
> >> > WingFlaps > wrote in
> >> :
>
> >> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> >>> Dan > wrote
> >> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> >> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact to
> >> >>> >> be safe, for instance?
>
> >> >>> >> Bertie
>
> >> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
> >> >>> > earth as back stops.
>
> >> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> >> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
> >> >>> > have to do with it?
>
> >> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>
> >> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> >> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them may
> >> >> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> >> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
> >> > thread.
>
> >> You're both clueless.
>
> > Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.
>
> I'd call it outright denial rather than insight. How's the violent crime
> rate now that you've given up arms? Hmmmm?
>
One quarter of that of the USA. Your point?

Cheers

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 05:12 AM

On Mar 31, 4:47*pm, Clark > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:ebacfceb-773a-4a59-b789-
> :
>
> > On Mar 31, 3:48*pm, Clark > wrote:
> >> WingFlaps > wrote in news:06fbc3d7-2eac-421a-96ce-
> >> :
>
> >> > On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
> >> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>
> >> messagenews:Xns9A72179E9FC52pis
>
> >> > ...
>
> >> >> > WingFlaps > wrote in
> >> >> >news:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-0380494f1cd8
>
> @e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com
>
> >:
>
> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> >> >>> Dan > wrote
> >> >> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> >> >> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> >> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2 impact
> t
> > o
> >> >> >>> >> be safe, for instance?
>
> >> >> >>> >> Bertie
>
> >> >> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms of
> >> >> >>> > earth as back stops.
>
> >> >> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> >> >> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63 years)
> >> >> >>> > have to do with it?
>
> >> >> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>
> >> >> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing the
> >> >> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of them
> ma
> > y
> >> >> >> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> >> >> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's another
> >> >> > thread.
>
> >> >> You're both clueless.
>
> >> > Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.
>
> >> I'd call it outright denial rather than insight. How's the violent crime
> >> rate now that you've given up arms? Hmmmm?
>
> > One quarter of that of the USA. Your point?
>
> My point is that it has increased since you've agreed to disarm. Why do you
> deny it?
> --

No it hasn't. The number of murders has fallen. gang viollence has
increased tho (beatings) and that was imported from the USA gaangsta
culture.

But, that's not what you wnat to hear is it? Sorry to pop your bubble.

Cheers

Cheers

Jay Maynard

March 31st 08, 05:50 AM

On 2008-03-31, Dan > wrote:
> The kids who shoot NRA events, take Hunter ed classes, and learn to
> shoot on a range do not fit the profile you suggest.

I'm going to have to find the picture of SF author Michael Z. Williamson's
9-year-old daughter proudly shooting her cute pink AR-15.

She's a damned good shot, too.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 10:01 AM

On Mar 31, 6:00*pm, Clark > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:0907ce1b-1653-4caa-bdc9-
> :
>
>
>
> > On Mar 31, 4:47*pm, Clark > wrote:
> >> WingFlaps > wrote in news:ebacfceb-773a-4a59-b789-
> >> :
>
> >> > On Mar 31, 3:48*pm, Clark > wrote:
> >> >> WingFlaps > wrote in news:06fbc3d7-2eac-421a-
> 96ce-
> >> >> :
>
> >> >> > On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
> >> >> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>
> >> >> messagenews:Xns9A72179E9FC52pis
>
> >> >> > ...
>
> >> >> >> > WingFlaps > wrote in
> >> >> >> >news:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-0380494f1cd8
>
> >> @e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com
>
> >> >:
>
> >> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> Dan > wrote
> >> >> >> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
> >> >> >> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> >> >> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2
> impac
> > t
> >> t
> >> > o
> >> >> >> >>> >> be safe, for instance?
>
> >> >> >> >>> >> Bertie
>
> >> >> >> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use Berms
> o
> > f
> >> >> >> >>> > earth as back stops.
>
> >> >> >> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>
> >> >> >> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63
> years
> > )
> >> >> >> >>> > have to do with it?
>
> >> >> >> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>
> >> >> >> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at confirming/revealing
> the
> >> >> >> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some of
> them
>
> >> ma
> >> > y
> >> >> >> >> actually fly and they have already had children.
>
> >> >> >> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's
> anothe
> > r
> >> >> >> > thread.
>
> >> >> >> You're both clueless.
>
> >> >> > Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.
>
> >> >> I'd call it outright denial rather than insight. How's the violent
> crim
> > e
> >> >> rate now that you've given up arms? Hmmmm?
>
> >> > One quarter of that of the USA. Your point?
>
> >> My point is that it has increased since you've agreed to disarm. Why do
> yo
> > u
> >> deny it?
> >> --
>
> > No it hasn't. The number of murders has fallen. gang viollence has
> > increased tho (beatings) and that was imported from the USA gaangsta
> > culture.
>
> > But, that's not what you wnat to hear is it? Sorry to pop your bubble.
>
> Ahh yes, the cause of all your problems is the US. Not.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble but your claim is absurd. Violent crime has
> increased and your denial doesn't change it one bit. Sorry old boy but it's
> time for you to face up to the facts. Good luck!
>

But it hasn't increased overall (by the US definition of violent
crime) has it? Why bull**** when you can admit you don't know any
statistics? Post your source that says I'm wrong.

Cheers

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 10:22 AM

Clark > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps > wrote in news:0907ce1b-1653-4caa-bdc9-
> :
>
>> On Mar 31, 4:47*pm, Clark > wrote:
>>> WingFlaps > wrote in
>>> news:ebacfceb-773a-4a59-b789-
>>> :
>>>
>>> > On Mar 31, 3:48*pm, Clark > wrote:
>>> >> WingFlaps > wrote in news:06fbc3d7-2eac-421a-
> 96ce-
>>> >> :
>>>
>>> >> > On Mar 31, 2:34*pm, "Maxwell" <luv^2^fly^99@^cox.^net> wrote:
>>> >> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in
>>>
>>> >> messagenews:Xns9A72179E9FC52pis
>>>
>>> >> > ...
>>>
>>> >> >> > WingFlaps > wrote in
>>> >> >> >news:72e94089-01dc-42ae-8aa9-0380494f1cd8
>>>
>>> @e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com
>>>
>>> >:
>>>
>>> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 3:45 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>> >> >> >>> Dan > wrote
>>> >> >> >>> innews:acb13669-0118-4897-98da-c33a96ea711e@
>>> >> >> >> m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> > On Mar 29, 10:22 pm, Bertie the Bunyip >
>>> >> >> >>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> >> What's a safe distance? How far should one be from a V2
> impac
>> t
>>> t
>>> > o
>>> >> >> >>> >> be safe, for instance?
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> >> Bertie
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> > Know your target and what's behind it. Most ranges use
>>> >> >> >>> > Berms
> o
>> f
>>> >> >> >>> > earth as back stops.
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> > Stay away from the business end and you're safe.
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> > And what does a V2 (a weapon that hasn't been used in 63
> years
>> )
>>> >> >> >>> > have to do with it?
>>>
>>> >> >> >>> It was a PKB insult.
>>>
>>> >> >> >> I love gun threads. They are so good at
>>> >> >> >> confirming/revealing
> the
>>> >> >> >> nature of the poaster. What really scares me is that some
>>> >> >> >> of
> them
>>
>>> ma
>>> > y
>>> >> >> >> actually fly and they have already had children.
>>>
>>> >> >> > Of course the children may end up shooting them, but that's
> anothe
>> r
>>> >> >> > thread.
>>>
>>> >> >> You're both clueless.
>>>
>>> >> > Nope. Just more insight than you can possibly imagine.
>>>
>>> >> I'd call it outright denial rather than insight. How's the
>>> >> violent
> crim
>> e
>>> >> rate now that you've given up arms? Hmmmm?
>>>
>>> > One quarter of that of the USA. Your point?
>>>
>>> My point is that it has increased since you've agreed to disarm. Why
>>> do
> yo
>> u
>>> deny it?
>>> --
>>
>> No it hasn't. The number of murders has fallen. gang viollence has
>> increased tho (beatings) and that was imported from the USA gaangsta
>> culture.
>>
>> But, that's not what you wnat to hear is it? Sorry to pop your
>> bubble.
>>
> Ahh yes, the cause of all your problems is the US. Not.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble but your claim is absurd. Violent crime has
> increased and your denial doesn't change it one bit. Sorry old boy but
> it's time for you to face up to the facts. Good luck!
>
> (here's a hint, murder doesn't define violent crime)

But it does define death. The wold is a more violent place almost
everywhere these days. Lots of things are contributing, but there is no
question about it, the availability of guns in the US is unquestionably
responsible for the staggering murder rate which is unequalled amongst
"first world" nations. If you guys and the NRA are so interesed in
responsible gun wonership, then you should be supporting restrictions on
ownership, not opposing them.

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 12:19 PM

On Mar 30, 11:00 pm, Nomen Nescio > wrote:

> So, in a word, your family is Sarah Brady's worst nightmare.

Yep, and I couldn't be happier.

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 12:43 PM

On Mar 31, 5:22 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> But it does define death. The wold is a more violent place almost
> everywhere these days. Lots of things are contributing, but there is no
> question about it, the availability of guns in the US is -->> unquestionably <<--
> responsible for the staggering murder rate which is unequalled amongst
> "first world" nations. If you guys and the NRA are so interesed in
> responsible gun wonership, then you should be supporting restrictions on
> ownership, not opposing them.
>
> Bertie

That statement is absolutely, positively, and profoundly false.

There are many countries with gun ownership rates similar to or higher
than the US, yet those have very low murder rates. The reverse is also
true.

Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.

There's no evidence that murder rates are higher in those countries
with higher levels of gun ownership. The only way to show such
relationships is cherry picking a few countries to make the
comparison.

Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
rate 40% below Canada's.

Those of us that live in more rural areas know that the police always
arrive on the crime scene long after the crime has already been
committed. In the last two cases that I have called 911 the PA State
Police where here TWO HOURS after the initial phone call. At night
there may be two (2) troopers covering the entire county.

A gun -- pistol, shotgun, even rifle-- is the most effective means for
me and my family to defend our home, property, and selves.

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 12:46 PM

On Mar 30, 10:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> Children are children.
>
> Bertie

Unless you're a gun control advocate.

Then you make certain you include 18 year old victims of gang wars in
all your data.

Then you use the term "children".

The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
pinafore.

It's intentionally deceptive -- positively Orwellian.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]

March 31st 08, 02:07 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 31, 5:22 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> But it does define death. The wold is a more violent place almost
>> everywhere these days. Lots of things are contributing, but there is
>> no question about it, the availability of guns in the US is -->>
>> unquestionably <<-- responsible for the staggering murder rate which
>> is unequalled amongst "first world" nations. If you guys and the NRA
>> are so interesed in responsible gun wonership, then you should be
>> supporting restrictions on ownership, not opposing them.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> That statement is absolutely, positively, and profoundly false.
>
> There are many countries with gun ownership rates similar to or higher
> than the US, yet those have very low murder rates. The reverse is also
> true.
>
> Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
> ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
> significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.

That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military reserve.
They don't own the guns, the state does.
>
> There's no evidence that murder rates are higher in those countries
> with higher levels of gun ownership. The only way to show such
> relationships is cherry picking a few countries to make the
> comparison.
>
> Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
> rate 40% below Canada's.

Again, the military.....

>
> Those of us that live in more rural areas know that the police always
> arrive on the crime scene long after the crime has already been
> committed. In the last two cases that I have called 911 the PA State
> Police where here TWO HOURS after the initial phone call. At night
> there may be two (2) troopers covering the entire county.
>
> A gun -- pistol, shotgun, even rifle-- is the most effective means for
> me and my family to defend our home, property, and selves.

I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your head
wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my assertion
that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason for the large
number of gun deaths there.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:18 PM

Dan > wrote in news:1f22b798-d3d0-4d46-9149-
:

> On Mar 30, 10:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Children are children.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Unless you're a gun control advocate.
>
> Then you make certain you include 18 year old victims of gang wars in
> all your data.
>

> Then you use the term "children".
>
> The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
> pinafore.

~IOW only a nice littel white kid.
>
> It's intentionally deceptive -- positively Orwellian.

No, it isn't. I consider a tennage gangster a kid too.

Even if you were to lower the age to 14 the stats would still be
horrific..

One's too many.

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 02:44 PM

On Mar 31, 9:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> > Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
> > ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
> > significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.
>
> That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military reserve.
> They don't own the guns, the state does.

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

> > Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
> > rate 40% below Canada's.
>
> Again, the military.....

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

> I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your head
> wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my assertion
> that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason for the large
> number of gun deaths there.
>
> Bertie

Lemme guess -- you watched Michael "not-really from Flint" Moore's
ridiculous "documentary"?

Every time I've purchased a gun, it has been through a Federally
Licensed Firearms Dealer.

After I complete a form, the store is required to do an FBI background
check (even though in one case I had just re-applied and received a
concealed carry permit from the sheriff across the street, walked over
to the sporting goods store, and had to be checked again -- maybe 10
minutes between checks -- oh and a $10 fee for each check).

They call a dedicated number, provide the required data, and someone
from the FBI tells them whether I am permitted to purchase a firearm.

Once that is clear I am able to hand over the $ in exchange for the
firearm.

How is that "easy"?

Dan Mc

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 02:51 PM

On Mar 31, 9:18 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> > Then you use the term "children".
>
> > The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
> > pinafore.
>
> ~IOW only a nice littel white kid.

Exactly the intention of those applying the term.

Black males accounted for 66% of all firearm homicides over the last
decade. Black males aged 15-19 are 40 times more likely to be murdered
by firearm than white males of the same age. The disparity in risk
decreases slightly with age, as black males aged 20-24 were 35 times
more likely to suffer this fate than white males of the same age,
while those aged 25-34 were 23 times more likely than their white
counterparts to be murdered with a firearm.

I'll say it again -- this is not the segment of the population being
mentored on ranges, in hunter education classes, or in target
competitions.

Dan Mc

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 06:23 PM

Dan > wrote in
:

> On Mar 31, 9:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> > Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
>> > ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
>> > significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.
>>
>> That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military
>> reserve. They don't own the guns, the state does.
>
> They have ready access to firearms?
>
> Yes.
>
>> > Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a
>> > murder rate 40% below Canada's.
>>
>> Again, the military.....
>
> They have ready access to firearms?
>
> Yes.
>
>> I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your
>> head wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my
>> assertion that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason
>> for the large number of gun deaths there.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Lemme guess -- you watched Michael "not-really from Flint" Moore's
> ridiculous "documentary"?

I've seen it, I agree with a lot of what he has to say, but I think his
stuff is ill researched and reactiionary and generally does more more to
the causes he takes up by giving the likes of you piles of spurious
points to make.
>
> Every time I've purchased a gun, it has been through a Federally
> Licensed Firearms Dealer.
>
> After I complete a form, the store is required to do an FBI background
> check (even though in one case I had just re-applied and received a
> concealed carry permit from the sheriff across the street, walked over
> to the sporting goods store, and had to be checked again -- maybe 10
> minutes between checks -- oh and a $10 fee for each check).
>
> They call a dedicated number, provide the required data, and someone
> from the FBI tells them whether I am permitted to purchase a firearm.
>
> Once that is clear I am able to hand over the $ in exchange for the
> firearm.
>
> How is that "easy"?
>

It isn't.

The Columbine kids go through all that? Or the guy that shot my friends
daughter dead?

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 06:25 PM

Dan > wrote in news:1ca16674-3714-4cdb-91e3-
:

> On Mar 31, 9:18 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> > Then you use the term "children".
>>
>> > The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
>> > pinafore.
>>
>> ~IOW only a nice littel white kid.
>
> Exactly the intention of those applying the term.

Nom, it was your intention.You attributed that sentiment to me and I
meant no such thing.

>
> Black males accounted for 66% of all firearm homicides over the last
> decade. Black males aged 15-19 are 40 times more likely to be murdered
> by firearm than white males of the same age. The disparity in risk
> decreases slightly with age, as black males aged 20-24 were 35 times
> more likely to suffer this fate than white males of the same age,
> while those aged 25-34 were 23 times more likely than their white
> counterparts to be murdered with a firearm.
>
> I'll say it again -- this is not the segment of the population being
> mentored on ranges, in hunter education classes, or in target
> competitions.

But they have handguns.

Bertie
>
>
>

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 06:46 PM

On Mar 31, 1:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> > How is that "easy"?
>
> It isn't.
>
> The Columbine kids go through all that? Or the guy that shot my friends
> daughter dead?
>
> Bertie

I'm not an investigator into either case, so how can I say for sure?

But (complicated issues always have "buts" and "on the other hands" --
demagogues only want a slogan)...

A big problem is illegal trade in firearms -- no doubt.

But how will adding layers of laws and bureaucratic hoops deter the
behavior of people who -- by definition -- ignore the existing laws?

We don't even enforce the laws already on the books. The various gun
control wet dreams such as "gun a month," waiting periods, handgun
registration, etc are all aimed at the law abiding and will have NO
impact on criminals (For an example of demand driving supply, see
entry under "illegal drug trade.")

Have people purchase firearms legally and used them for illegal
activities?

Certainly.

Have people acquired firearms illegally and used them for illegal
activities?

Usually.

Replace "firearms" with "car", "airplane", "baseball bat",
"Fertilizer", "Drano," "sleeping pills" ad infinitum and the answers
are exactly the same.

The dirty little secret of the gun control agenda is that their logic
is only reasonable if we eliminate firearms from a society. That is
simply not going to happen, because the vast majority of firearms are
used for benign purposes.

For historical context consider this -- in 1920s there were NO federal
and few state controls on firearms, and yet the murder and suicide
rates were a small fraction of what they are today -- and that's
rates, not raw numbers.

The old saw about the "Wild West" is bull**** too -- there were far
fewer murders, suicides, rapes, and forcible entry in western
communities in the 19th century then we've expereinced in the late
20th through current century. The whole image is a fabrication of dime
store novelists.

Dan Mc