ping Dan Thomas/weird crashes. [Archive]

March 29th 08, 07:28 PM

On Mar 28, 8:27 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> I'm wondering about foul-play going on here,http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJ5DpX4mRos2CRKW6KPMty3...
>
> When his dad crashed a few months ago it was big
> news cuz a little girl survived, but now he crashes with
> a really strange debris field.
>
> It's really strange to me.
> Ken

No real idea. It's about 100 nm Northeast of us, and we had
snow at the time. I would think the pilot was IFR certified if he was
flying a jetprop like that one. The way the radar track jiggles around
yet maintains a steady track toward their destination,, and the fact
that the pilot told ATC that they had technical problems, there might
have been some structural issue involved. Beyond that, I can't
speculate. A large debris field suggests inflight breakup.
Bad for the families involved, especially the pilot's family,
who lost members in another crash last fall.

Dan

[email protected]

March 29th 08, 10:22 PM

On Mar 29, 1:03*am, "Private" > wrote:
> Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> FYI
>
> http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> Condolences to family & friends.

The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
snow. They might have survived...

Godspeed to all involved..

Ben

[email protected]

March 30th 08, 12:37 AM

On Mar 29, 3:22 pm, " > wrote:
> On Mar 29, 1:03 am, "Private" > wrote:
>
> > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > FYI
>
> >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
> shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
> these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
> snow. They might have survived...
>
> Godspeed to all involved..
>
> Ben

On the news a few minutes ago, the TSB guys indicated that it had
been an inflight breakup. That can be caused by several factors,
including spiralling out of control, severe turbulence, or some pre-
existing flaw leading to structural failure. It will take the
investigators some time to figure it out, and even then they're
sometimes not sure. I won't speculate further, but will say that
inflight structural failure is one of the things that scares me most;
the other is a midair collision. I pay a lot of attention to the
structural inspections of our aircraft, and have my eyeballs all over
the place when VFR.
Deep snow wouldn't help much if it was an inflight breakup. Most
frequent failures involve the tail, and an airplane will stick its
nose straight down if the stab departs.

Dan

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 30th 08, 03:48 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
:

> I'm wondering about foul-play going on here,
> http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJ5DpX4mRos2CRKW6KPMty3h
8
> HjQ
>
> When his dad crashed a few months ago it was big
> news cuz a little girl survived, but now he crashes with
> a really strange debris field.
>
> It's really strange to me.
> Ken
>

Why don't you go buy one. Or you could nmake one out of paper.

Then you could go and try and duplicate it!

Bertie

[email protected]

March 30th 08, 06:04 PM

On Mar 29, 5:37 pm, wrote:
> On Mar 29, 3:22 pm, " > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 1:03 am, "Private" > wrote:
>
> > > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > > FYI
>
> > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> > >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> > >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> > The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
> > shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
> > these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
> > snow. They might have survived...
>
> > Godspeed to all involved..
>
> > Ben
>
> On the news a few minutes ago, the TSB guys indicated that it had
> been an inflight breakup. That can be caused by several factors,
> including spiralling out of control, severe turbulence, or some pre-
> existing flaw leading to structural failure. It will take the
> investigators some time to figure it out, and even then they're
> sometimes not sure. I won't speculate further, but will say that
> inflight structural failure is one of the things that scares me most;
> the other is a midair collision. I pay a lot of attention to the
> structural inspections of our aircraft, and have my eyeballs all over
> the place when VFR.
> Deep snow wouldn't help much if it was an inflight breakup. Most
> frequent failures involve the tail, and an airplane will stick its
> nose straight down if the stab departs.
>
> Dan

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=9ce7fefa-920d-4710-ba0d-11eac97adfa6&k=54326

Ken S. Tucker

March 31st 08, 01:14 AM

On Mar 30, 9:04 am, wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:37 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 3:22 pm, " > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 29, 1:03 am, "Private" > wrote:
>
> > > > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > > > FYI
>
> > > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> > > >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> > > >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > > > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> > > The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
> > > shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
> > > these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
> > > snow. They might have survived...
>
> > > Godspeed to all involved..
>
> > > Ben
>
> > On the news a few minutes ago, the TSB guys indicated that it had
> > been an inflight breakup. That can be caused by several factors,
> > including spiralling out of control, severe turbulence, or some pre-
> > existing flaw leading to structural failure. It will take the
> > investigators some time to figure it out, and even then they're
> > sometimes not sure. I won't speculate further, but will say that
> > inflight structural failure is one of the things that scares me most;
> > the other is a midair collision. I pay a lot of attention to the
> > structural inspections of our aircraft, and have my eyeballs all over
> > the place when VFR.
> > Deep snow wouldn't help much if it was an inflight breakup. Most
> > frequent failures involve the tail, and an airplane will stick its
> > nose straight down if the stab departs.
>
> > Dan
>
> http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=9ce7fefa-920d-4...

Thanks Dan, (tears aside).
"Dean Braithwaite, chief flight instructor at the Edmonton Flying
Club"
sounds good in that ref.
We've recently discussed the importance of the Artificial
Horizon in this group,

Maybe the pilot ascended above 12500, that can **** up
judgement, went spiral dive (blam) and blamed the AH,
for judgement error. The debris field indicates an aircraft
structural anomally at high altitude.

My GUESS is he was trying to ascend above the weather,
did a stall in lowered air density, converted to a spiral dive,
that shattered the a/c in a few hundred feet at fairly high
altitude.
In a spiral dive the a/c is using gravity to accelerate, it's
like jumping off a building and it comes on fast.

Every pilot must know when he's in a spiral dive and
how to correct it.
Hard input will shatter the a/c, especially if IAS is near
red line, which happens quickly, so be gentle.

In my experience, gentle application of elevator with
reverse aileron is ok. However, jerking the elevator
can snug the turn and exceed the g-rating, specially
if the airlerons are used inappropriately.
I'd like to hear an expert opinion.
Ken

Peter Clark

March 31st 08, 02:01 AM

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:14:05 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
> wrote:

>Maybe the pilot ascended above 12500, that can **** up
>judgement, went spiral dive (blam) and blamed the AH,
>for judgement error

Malibu is pressurized, horn goes off with cabin alt over 10K.

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 02:33 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
:

> On Mar 30, 9:04 am, wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 5:37 pm, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 29, 3:22 pm, " > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Mar 29, 1:03 am, "Private" > wrote:
>>
>> > > > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>>
>> > > > FYI
>>
>> > > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>>
>> > > >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>>
>> > > >
http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/
>> > > >func...
>>
>> > > > Condolences to family & friends.
>>
>> > > The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
>> > > shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
>> > > these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
>> > > snow. They might have survived...
>>
>> > > Godspeed to all involved..
>>
>> > > Ben
>>
>> > On the news a few minutes ago, the TSB guys indicated that it
>> > had
>> > been an inflight breakup. That can be caused by several factors,
>> > including spiralling out of control, severe turbulence, or some
>> > pre- existing flaw leading to structural failure. It will take the
>> > investigators some time to figure it out, and even then they're
>> > sometimes not sure. I won't speculate further, but will say that
>> > inflight structural failure is one of the things that scares me
>> > most; the other is a midair collision. I pay a lot of attention to
>> > the structural inspections of our aircraft, and have my eyeballs
>> > all over the place when VFR.
>> > Deep snow wouldn't help much if it was an inflight breakup.
>> > Most
>> > frequent failures involve the tail, and an airplane will stick its
>> > nose straight down if the stab departs.
>>
>> > Dan
>>
>> http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=9ce7fefa-920d-
4.
>> ..
>
> Thanks Dan, (tears aside).
> "Dean Braithwaite, chief flight instructor at the Edmonton Flying
> Club"
> sounds good in that ref.
> We've recently discussed the importance of the Artificial
> Horizon in this group,
>
> Maybe the pilot ascended above 12500, that can **** up
> judgement, went spiral dive (blam) and blamed the AH,
> for judgement error. The debris field indicates an aircraft
> structural anomally at high altitude.
>
> My GUESS is he was trying to ascend above the weather,
> did a stall in lowered air density, converted to a spiral dive,
> that shattered the a/c in a few hundred feet at fairly high
> altitude.
> In a spiral dive the a/c is using gravity to accelerate, it's
> like jumping off a building and it comes on fast.
>
> Every pilot must know when he's in a spiral dive and
> how to correct it.
> Hard input will shatter the a/c, especially if IAS is near
> red line, which happens quickly, so be gentle.
>
> In my experience, gentle application of elevator with
> reverse aileron is ok. However, jerking the elevator
> can snug the turn and exceed the g-rating, specially
> if the airlerons are used inappropriately.
> I'd like to hear an expert opinion.

Here's mine. You are a liar and an idiot.

Bertie

Matt Whiting

March 31st 08, 02:43 AM

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> On Mar 30, 9:04 am, wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 5:37 pm, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 29, 3:22 pm, " > wrote:
>>>> On Mar 29, 1:03 am, "Private" > wrote:
>>>>> Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>>>>> FYI
>>>>> http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>>>>> http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>>>>> http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>>>>> Condolences to family & friends.
>>>> The pic that is posted on the Flightaware site is interesting. Is
>>>> shows an almost complete cockpit with very little damage. Too bad
>>>> these guys couldn't have hit a 20 foot deep pile of fluffy powder
>>>> snow. They might have survived...
>>>> Godspeed to all involved..
>>>> Ben
>>> On the news a few minutes ago, the TSB guys indicated that it had
>>> been an inflight breakup. That can be caused by several factors,
>>> including spiralling out of control, severe turbulence, or some pre-
>>> existing flaw leading to structural failure. It will take the
>>> investigators some time to figure it out, and even then they're
>>> sometimes not sure. I won't speculate further, but will say that
>>> inflight structural failure is one of the things that scares me most;
>>> the other is a midair collision. I pay a lot of attention to the
>>> structural inspections of our aircraft, and have my eyeballs all over
>>> the place when VFR.
>>> Deep snow wouldn't help much if it was an inflight breakup. Most
>>> frequent failures involve the tail, and an airplane will stick its
>>> nose straight down if the stab departs.
>>> Dan
>> http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=9ce7fefa-920d-4...
>
> Thanks Dan, (tears aside).
> "Dean Braithwaite, chief flight instructor at the Edmonton Flying
> Club"
> sounds good in that ref.
> We've recently discussed the importance of the Artificial
> Horizon in this group,
>
> Maybe the pilot ascended above 12500, that can **** up
> judgement, went spiral dive (blam) and blamed the AH,
> for judgement error. The debris field indicates an aircraft
> structural anomally at high altitude.
>
> My GUESS is he was trying to ascend above the weather,
> did a stall in lowered air density, converted to a spiral dive,
> that shattered the a/c in a few hundred feet at fairly high
> altitude.
> In a spiral dive the a/c is using gravity to accelerate, it's
> like jumping off a building and it comes on fast.
>
> Every pilot must know when he's in a spiral dive and
> how to correct it.
> Hard input will shatter the a/c, especially if IAS is near
> red line, which happens quickly, so be gentle.
>
> In my experience, gentle application of elevator with
> reverse aileron is ok. However, jerking the elevator
> can snug the turn and exceed the g-rating, specially
> if the airlerons are used inappropriately.
> I'd like to hear an expert opinion.

Me, too, as yours certainly is far from expert.

[email protected]

March 31st 08, 04:07 AM

On Mar 30, 5:14 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> Every pilot must know when he's in a spiral dive and
> how to correct it.
> Hard input will shatter the a/c, especially if IAS is near
> red line, which happens quickly, so be gentle.
>
> In my experience, gentle application of elevator with
> reverse aileron is ok. However, jerking the elevator
> can snug the turn and exceed the g-rating, specially
> if the airlerons are used inappropriately.
> I'd like to hear an expert opinion.
> Ken

The private pilot student is taught to recognize the spiral, cut
the power, level the wings, and ease out of the dive. In that exact
order. Anything less is cause for failure of the exercise on the
flight test. It's the failure to recognize the spiral that often gets
the VFR-only pilot after he gets into IMC. Flight is coordinated and
he doesn't feel anything. He isn't trained to trust, yet cross-check,
all the instruments. He trusts his sense of balance, which tells him
big lies when his eyes have nothing to look at outside.
Some slippery airplanes will pull up hard on their own when the
wings are levelled. The stability of the aircraft causes the nose to
rise when airspeed rises, and so, if the speed is high enough, when
the turn is stopped by levelling the wings the nose will come up on
its own, sometimes hard enough to cause structural damage or failure.
Many of these slippery sorts will experience failure of the
horizontal stabilizer first. The airplane then flops over onto its
back and the wings fail downward due to the negative G loading. The
210 and Bonanza were famous for that sort of thing.

Dan

Ken S. Tucker

March 31st 08, 05:03 AM

On Mar 30, 7:07 pm, wrote:
> On Mar 30, 5:14 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:

> > Every pilot must know when he's in a spiral dive and
> > how to correct it.
> > Hard input will shatter the a/c, especially if IAS is near
> > red line, which happens quickly, so be gentle.
>
> > In my experience, gentle application of elevator with
> > reverse aileron is ok. However, jerking the elevator
> > can snug the turn and exceed the g-rating, specially
> > if the airlerons are used inappropriately.
> > I'd like to hear an expert opinion.
> > Ken
>
> The private pilot student is taught to recognize the spiral, cut
> the power, level the wings, and ease out of the dive.

"level and ***ease*** out".
The pilot should yell out "spiral dive" as fast as he
he recognizes that and that then institutes the cool
recovery procedure, that differs from a spin stall.
Is that right?
I'm wondering about rudder application differences.

> In that exact
> order. Anything less is cause for failure of the exercise on the
> flight test. It's the failure to recognize the spiral that often gets
> the VFR-only pilot after he gets into IMC. Flight is coordinated and
> he doesn't feel anything. He isn't trained to trust, yet cross-check,
> all the instruments. He trusts his sense of balance, which tells him
> big lies when his eyes have nothing to look at outside.

I concur. The pilot reported his Artificial Horizon Indicator
(from what I've read) was to him faulty.
Yeah, a faulty AH can certainly **** up a pilot on
instruments, though the fella was flying in daytime.
Possibly, he was clouded, (not VFR).

> Some slippery airplanes will pull up hard on their own when the
> wings are levelled. The stability of the aircraft causes the nose to
> rise when airspeed rises, and so, if the speed is high enough, when
> the turn is stopped by levelling the wings the nose will come up on
> its own, sometimes hard enough to cause structural damage or failure.

Ok.

> Many of these slippery sorts will experience failure of the
> horizontal stabilizer first. The airplane then flops over onto its
> back and the wings fail downward due to the negative G loading. The
> 210 and Bonanza were famous for that sort of thing.
> Dan

Thank you Dan, that's an unpleasant Roger.
Ken

WingFlaps

March 31st 08, 05:17 AM

On Mar 31, 5:03*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:

> "level and ***ease*** out".
> The pilot should yell out "spiral dive" as fast as he
> he recognizes that and that then institutes the cool
> recovery procedure, that differs from a spin stall.
> Is that right?

Only if your mommy is listening to you playing flight sim.

Cheers

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

March 31st 08, 10:18 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in news:0c5b99d7-c498-
:

>
> "level and ***ease*** out".
> The pilot should yell out "spiral dive" as fast as he
> he recognizes that and that then institutes the cool
> recovery procedure, that differs from a spin stall.
> Is that right?
> I'm wondering about rudder application differences.

I'd say you wonder which way "up" is.
>
>> In that exact
>> order. Anything less is cause for failure of the exercise on the
>> flight test. It's the failure to recognize the spiral that often gets
>> the VFR-only pilot after he gets into IMC. Flight is coordinated and
>> he doesn't feel anything. He isn't trained to trust, yet cross-check,
>> all the instruments. He trusts his sense of balance, which tells him
>> big lies when his eyes have nothing to look at outside.
>
> I concur. The pilot reported his Artificial Horizon Indicator
> (from what I've read) was to him faulty.
> Yeah, a faulty AH can certainly **** up a pilot on
> instruments, though the fella was flying in daytime.
> Possibly, he was clouded, (not VFR).

He ws clouded? Bwahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahwh!

>
>> Some slippery airplanes will pull up hard on their own when the
>> wings are levelled. The stability of the aircraft causes the nose to
>> rise when airspeed rises, and so, if the speed is high enough, when
>> the turn is stopped by levelling the wings the nose will come up on
>> its own, sometimes hard enough to cause structural damage or failure.
>
> Ok.
>
>> Many of these slippery sorts will experience failure of the
>> horizontal stabilizer first. The airplane then flops over onto its
>> back and the wings fail downward due to the negative G loading. The
>> 210 and Bonanza were famous for that sort of thing.
>> Dan
>
> Thank you Dan, that's an unpleasant Roger.

No such thing as an unpleasant roger, fjukktard.

(the rest of you can look it up)

Bertie

Dan[_10_]

March 31st 08, 01:27 PM

On Mar 31, 12:03 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:

> "level and ***ease*** out".
> The pilot should yell out "spiral dive" as fast as he
> he recognizes that and that then institutes the cool
> recovery procedure, that differs from a spin stall.

A spin is a stalled condition of flight.

How did you now know that?

Dan Mc

Private

April 1st 08, 08:02 AM

"Private" > wrote in message
...
> Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> FYI
>
> http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func,view/id,14184/catid,55/
>
> Condolences to family & friends.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_planecrash_080331/20080331?hub=CTVNewsAt11

http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n

Ken S. Tucker

April 1st 08, 05:06 PM

On Mar 31, 11:02 pm, "Private" > wrote:
> "Private" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > FYI
>
> >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_pla...
>
> http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n

This is news to me,
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=1c6483cc-3097-41ce-ad88-825a02ca8ec5

So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
the altimeter/rate of descent.
Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
For rate of descent, the power setting vs, KIAS gives
a fair good idea of the rate of descent.

That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
could lead to pilot confusion.
Ken

Dan[_10_]

April 1st 08, 05:19 PM

On Apr 1, 12:06 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> On Mar 31, 11:02 pm, "Private" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Private" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > > FYI
>
> > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> > >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> > >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> >http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_pla...
>
> >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n
>
> This is news to me,http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=1c6483cc-309...
>
> So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
> one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
> the altimeter/rate of descent.
> Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
> proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
> For rate of descent, the power setting vs, KIAS gives
> a fair good idea of the rate of descent.
>
> That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
> pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
> mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
> could lead to pilot confusion.
> Ken

And the last time you flew partial panel in IMC was....?

Ken S. Tucker

April 1st 08, 06:37 PM

On Apr 1, 8:19 am, Dan > wrote:
> On Apr 1, 12:06 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 31, 11:02 pm, "Private" > wrote:
>
> > > "Private" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>
> > > > FYI
>
> > > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>
> > > >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>
> > > >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>
> > > > Condolences to family & friends.
>
> > >http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_pla...
>
> > >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n
>
> > This is news to me,http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=1c6483cc-309...
>
> > So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
> > one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
> > the altimeter/rate of descent.
> > Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
> > proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
> > For rate of descent, the power setting vs, KIAS gives
> > a fair good idea of the rate of descent.
>
> > That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
> > pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
> > mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
> > could lead to pilot confusion.
> > Ken
>
> And the last time you flew partial panel in IMC was....?

I was blind-folded, and the instruments were in Brail.
That excersize was conducted at night in clouds with
total electrical failure. To play it safe I did an extended
flare over the numbers, that's because I had two dead
jet engines and had to dead stick without flaps, SOP.

How about you Dan?
Ken

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 1st 08, 08:42 PM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
:

> On Mar 31, 11:02 pm, "Private" > wrote:
>> "Private" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>>
>> > FYI
>>
>> >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>>
>> >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>>
>> >
http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func
>> >...
>>
>> > Condolences to family & friends.
>>
>>
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_pla.
>> ..
>>
>> http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n
>
> This is news to me,
> http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=1c6483cc-
3097-
> 41ce-ad88-825a02ca8ec5
>
> So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
> one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
> the altimeter/rate of descent.
> Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
> proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
> For rate of descent, the power setting vs, KIAS gives
> a fair good idea of the rate of descent.
>
> That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
> pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
> mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
> could lead to pilot confusion.

Bwawahwhha!

Like you need a lack of O2 for that.

Bertie

ROBERT ALLAN \BOBBIE\ BEAR.M.D. (ex Vice Dean)

April 1st 08, 08:50 PM

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:19:24 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:

> On Apr 1, 12:06 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>> On Mar 31, 11:02 pm, "Private" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Private" > wrote in message
>>
...
>>
>>> > Piper Malibu down east of Edmonton 5 sob
>>
>>> > FYI
>>
>>> >http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=h
>>
>>> >http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?p=47890#47890
>>
>>> >http://www.aviation.ca/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,306/func...
>>
>>> > Condolences to family & friends.
>>
>>>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080329/alta_pla...
>>
>>>http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1146577933&topic=n
>>
>> This is news to me,http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=1c6483cc-309...
>>
>> So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
>> one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
>> the altimeter/rate of descent.
>> Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
>> proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
>> For rate of descent, the power setting vs, KIAS gives
>> a fair good idea of the rate of descent.
>>
>> That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
>> pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
>> mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
>> could lead to pilot confusion.
>> Ken
>
> And the last time you flew partial panel in IMC was....?

Jesus, what an idiot you are. *PLONK*
--
Dr. Robert Bear, MD, FRCPC
American Board of Internal Medicine & Nephrology Certification
Telephone 780-407-7239; Fax 780-407-7771

[email protected]

April 2nd 08, 01:12 AM

On Apr 1, 10:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:

> So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
> one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
> the altimeter/rate of descent.
> Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
> proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).

Neither the heading indicator nor the altimeter will keep you
upright. The turn coordinator and ASI are for that. The magnetic
compass is useless during a turn, as you *should* know.

Dan (whose IFR rating lapsed eight years ago already. Too busy
fixing airplanes for other people. Where does the time go?)

Ken S. Tucker

April 2nd 08, 05:52 PM

On Apr 1, 4:12 pm, wrote:
> On Apr 1, 10:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> > So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
> > one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
> > the altimeter/rate of descent.
> > Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
> > proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
>
> Neither the heading indicator nor the altimeter will keep you
> upright. The turn coordinator and ASI are for that. The magnetic
> compass is useless during a turn, as you *should* know.

LOL,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
You should REALLY study how that was done.
BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
driving around BC, up and down.
Ken

B A R R Y[_2_]

April 2nd 08, 05:59 PM

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

>
> LOL,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
> You should REALLY study how that was done.
> BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
> driving around BC, up and down.

Lindberg flew in IMC?

I suggest a trip back to Google and Wikipedia to research the mail
pilots in Jenny's who flew into IMC with only a compass.

Ken S. Tucker

April 2nd 08, 06:53 PM

On Apr 2, 8:59 am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
> > LOL,
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
> > You should REALLY study how that was done.
> > BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
> > driving around BC, up and down.
>
> Lindberg flew in IMC?
>
> I suggest a trip back to Google and Wikipedia to research the mail
> pilots in Jenny's who flew into IMC with only a compass.

Back to the incident, my point is one can do IFR
with a compass and a barometer, I learned that
for IFR. Of course it's easier now, with radio.
Lindbergh was NORDO.
IIRC correctly he did careful navigation, reset his
altimeter relative to sea level, and did some stellar
and solar navigation to reset his magnetic compass.

I thought every IFR pilot knew how to do that.
Why the evident "spiral dive" ?
Ken

[email protected]

April 2nd 08, 07:57 PM

On Apr 2, 11:53 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> Back to the incident, my point is one can do IFR
> with a compass and a barometer, I learned that
> for IFR. Of course it's easier now, with radio.
> Lindbergh was NORDO.
> IIRC correctly he did careful navigation, reset his
> altimeter relative to sea level, and did some stellar
> and solar navigation to reset his magnetic compass.
>
> I thought every IFR pilot knew how to do that.
> Why the evident "spiral dive" ?
> Ken

You cannot do IFR with just a compass and barometer. You DID
NOT learn to do that. The compass, because of lead/lag and northerly
turning errors, will not indicate accurately in anything but steady,
straight-ahead flight. In a coordinated turn it will stay level inside
its case and cannot be used for bank or pitch information. It will
swim all over the place during turns, acceleration deceleration.
Barometers are sticky and wholly inadequate for accurate altitude.
Just being inside an aircraft cabin, whose pressure can be
substantially different from that outside due to leaks in the
fuselage, will make it read falsely. Inside a pressurized cabin it's
useless, of course.
Anyone who follows nothing more than a whiskey compass and a
barometer in IMC is going to die real soon.

Dan

[email protected]

April 2nd 08, 08:06 PM

On Apr 2, 11:53 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 8:59 am, B A R R Y > wrote:
>
> > Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
> > > LOL,
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
> > > You should REALLY study how that was done.
> > > BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
> > > driving around BC, up and down.
>
> > Lindberg flew in IMC?
>
> > I suggest a trip back to Google and Wikipedia to research the mail
> > pilots in Jenny's who flew into IMC with only a compass.
>
> Back to the incident, my point is one can do IFR
> with a compass and a barometer, I learned that
> for IFR. Of course it's easier now, with radio.
> Lindbergh was NORDO.
> IIRC correctly he did careful navigation, reset his
> altimeter relative to sea level, and did some stellar
> and solar navigation to reset his magnetic compass.
>
> I thought every IFR pilot knew how to do that.
> Why the evident "spiral dive" ?
> Ken

Better read this:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=kDkh5_YspokC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=partial+panel&source=web&ots=-9BgULFzSz&sig=hKJvz4Gp9u99BrUR3h_oMTFLeP8&hl=en#PPA87,M1

Dan

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 2nd 08, 08:21 PM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in news:959da395-a5ab-
:

> On Apr 1, 4:12 pm, wrote:
>> On Apr 1, 10:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>> > So in IFR in dense cloud, the AH starts going funny,
>> > one still x-checks against the heading indicator and
>> > the altimeter/rate of descent.
>> > Finally there's the magnetic compass that is fool-
>> > proof, (not idiot proof-Bertie couldn't find it ;-).
>>
>> Neither the heading indicator nor the altimeter will keep you
>> upright. The turn coordinator and ASI are for that. The magnetic
>> compass is useless during a turn, as you *should* know.
>
> LOL,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
> You should REALLY study how that was done.
> BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
> driving around BC, up and down.

An altitude indicator?

And Lindbergh had a gyro you fukking moron.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 2nd 08, 08:22 PM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in news:8790d988-d7b4-
:

> On Apr 2, 8:59 am, B A R R Y > wrote:
>> Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>>
>> > LOL,
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
>> > You should REALLY study how that was done.
>> > BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
>> > driving around BC, up and down.
>>
>> Lindberg flew in IMC?
>>
>> I suggest a trip back to Google and Wikipedia to research the mail
>> pilots in Jenny's who flew into IMC with only a compass.
>
> Back to the incident, my point is one can do IFR
> with a compass and a barometer,

Oh, do go out and try that. Do it tomorrow you fjukktard.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 2nd 08, 08:27 PM

B A R R Y > wrote in news:sYOIj.623$Gq7.502
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

> Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
>>
>> LOL,
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_St._Louis
>> You should REALLY study how that was done.
>> BTW, I use a Barometer as an altitude indicator
>> driving around BC, up and down.
>
> Lindberg flew in IMC?
>
On the crossing? Yes, he had a yaw gyro, though.

He also got airframe icing...

Bertie

Private

April 3rd 08, 12:43 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in message
...
snip
> That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
> pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
> mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
> could lead to pilot confusion.
> Ken

Check YOUR cabin, it seems to be leaking, and not slowly.

I would also suggest and request that you show some respect for a qualified
pilot and active aviation supporter and for his passengers and their
families and friends. As aviators concerned with safety, we all want to
learn from this sad event but it is just low class to use it as an excuse to
troll or to demonstrate your ignorance in general.

No reply requested.

Benjamin Dover

April 3rd 08, 01:27 AM

"Ken ****head Tucker" > wrote in news:8790d988-d7b4-
:

> IIRC correctly he did careful navigation, reset his
> altimeter relative to sea level, and did some stellar
> and solar navigation to reset his magnetic compass.
>

Reset his magnetic compass? You are one dumb mother ****er, ****head
Tucker.

Big John

April 3rd 08, 03:28 AM

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Apr 2, 11:53 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>> Back to the incident, my point is one can do IFR
>> with a compass and a barometer, I learned that
>> for IFR. Of course it's easier now, with radio.
>> Lindbergh was NORDO.
>> IIRC correctly he did careful navigation, reset his
>> altimeter relative to sea level, and did some stellar
>> and solar navigation to reset his magnetic compass.
>>
>> I thought every IFR pilot knew how to do that.
>> Why the evident "spiral dive" ?
>> Ken
>
> You cannot do IFR with just a compass and barometer. You DID
>NOT learn to do that. The compass, because of lead/lag and northerly
>turning errors, will not indicate accurately in anything but steady,
>straight-ahead flight. In a coordinated turn it will stay level inside
>its case and cannot be used for bank or pitch information. It will
>swim all over the place during turns, acceleration deceleration.
>Barometers are sticky and wholly inadequate for accurate altitude.
>Just being inside an aircraft cabin, whose pressure can be
>substantially different from that outside due to leaks in the
>fuselage, will make it read falsely. Inside a pressurized cabin it's
>useless, of course.
> Anyone who follows nothing more than a whiskey compass and a
>barometer in IMC is going to die real soon.
>
> Dan
*****************************************

Dan

Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
whisky compass and altimeter).

Big John

[email protected]

April 3rd 08, 04:09 AM

On Apr 2, 7:28 pm, Big John > wrote:

> > Anyone who follows nothing more than a whiskey compass and a
> >barometer in IMC is going to die real soon.
>
> > Dan
>
> *****************************************
>
> Dan
>
> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
> whisky compass and altimeter).
>
> Big John

Yup. I did that during IFR training, too. Need a watch with a
second hand, too, or stopwatch. Not much fun, but necessary. Surely
you didn't routinely fly actual IMC in airplanes having just those
instruments?

Dan

Matt W. Barrow

April 3rd 08, 05:04 AM

"Big John" > wrote in message
...

>
> Dan
>
> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
> whisky compass and altimeter).
>
> Big John

Was that because you learned to fly before electricity was discovered? :~0

Ken S. Tucker

April 3rd 08, 05:28 AM

On Apr 2, 3:43 pm, "Private" > wrote:
> "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in ...
> snip
>
> > That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
> > pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
> > mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
> > could lead to pilot confusion.
> > Ken
>
> Check YOUR cabin, it seems to be leaking, and not slowly.
....
IDIOT :-)

Ken S. Tucker

April 3rd 08, 05:39 AM

On Apr 2, 8:04 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Big John" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Dan
>
> > Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
> > whisky compass and altimeter).
>
> > Big John
>
> Was that because you learned to fly before electricity was discovered? :~0

LOL: One can be IFR rated by turning on the Auto-
Pilot switch, and dial the cell-phone for directions.
All them fancy dials is a sales pitch.
Ken

Big John

April 3rd 08, 05:44 AM

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:09:05 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Apr 2, 7:28 pm, Big John > wrote:
>
>> > Anyone who follows nothing more than a whiskey compass and a
>> >barometer in IMC is going to die real soon.
>>
>> > Dan
>>
>> *****************************************
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
>> whisky compass and altimeter).
>>
>> Big John
>
> Yup. I did that during IFR training, too. Need a watch with a
>second hand, too, or stopwatch. Not much fun, but necessary. Surely
>you didn't routinely fly actual IMC in airplanes having just those
>instruments?
>
> Dan
*********************************************

Dan

Of course the clock. How else could you make a turn with whisky
compass and needle and come out near the heading you wanted?

Most early flights were VFR but was not unknown that one would get
caught and end up IFR. WX forecasting was poor at best. Training was
basically Needle, Ball and A/S and four course Radio Range for IFR
Nav. Airspeed gave you climb or descent and altimeter gave you
altitude of course.

Also as time moved on and we had a very basic full panel. If you lost
your primary instruments or gyros hit stops and tumbled, then you flew
partial panel or augured in. No ejection seats in those days.

Lots of hours in Link trainer, under hood and AI. Seemed to work as I
survived on a number of pucker occasions :o)

I have been lucky to fly thru so many eras of flight in my life.
Started when a buggy whip was a throttle and ended with routine super
sonic flight.

Big John

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 3rd 08, 10:04 AM

wrote in news:62496d5b-5983-4be0-8f72-
:

> On Apr 2, 7:28 pm, Big John > wrote:
>
>> > Anyone who follows nothing more than a whiskey compass and a
>> >barometer in IMC is going to die real soon.
>>
>> > Dan
>>
>> *****************************************
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
>> whisky compass and altimeter).
>>
>> Big John
>
> Yup. I did that during IFR training, too. Need a watch with a
> second hand, too, or stopwatch. Not much fun, but necessary. Surely
> you didn't routinely fly actual IMC in airplanes having just those
> instruments?
>

I have done. Legally too!

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 3rd 08, 10:05 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
:

> On Apr 2, 8:04 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Big John" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Dan
>>
>> > Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
>> > whisky compass and altimeter).
>>
>> > Big John
>>
>> Was that because you learned to fly before electricity was
>> discovered? :~0
>
> LOL: One can be IFR rated by turning on the Auto-
> Pilot switch, and dial the cell-phone for directions.
> All them fancy dials is a sales pitch.

Yes Kennie, why on't you go out and try that right after you try flying
IMC using the E2 compass?

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]

April 3rd 08, 10:06 AM

"Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
:

> On Apr 2, 3:43 pm, "Private" > wrote:
>> "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote in
>> messagenews:0022cbba-d7a7-4936-91c1-85e9b74e5c19
@q27g2000prf.googlegro
>> ups.com... snip
>>
>> > That all works for a 1/2 ass pilot, however if the cabin
>> > pressure had a slow leak, and the pilot slowly looses
>> > mental faculties, (Bertie is a typical example), that
>> > could lead to pilot confusion.
>> > Ken
>>
>> Check YOUR cabin, it seems to be leaking, and not slowly.
> ...
> IDIOT :-)
>
>
Good one there kennie. You really got him good.

Bertie

B A R R Y[_2_]

April 3rd 08, 12:35 PM

Big John wrote:
>
>
> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
> whisky compass and altimeter).

Many still do, in the partial panel section of most courses.

I shot a full VOR approach, including two trips around a hold, on my IFR
checkride, with a simulated vacuum failure. Turns were made with my
whiskey compass and clock. I still had pitot-static instruments for
pitch and altitude information.

Big John

April 3rd 08, 05:55 PM

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:04:05 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
> wrote:

>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
>> whisky compass and altimeter).
>>
>> Big John
>
>Was that because you learned to fly before electricity was discovered? :~0

*************************************

Matt

Almost :o)

Big John

Big John

April 3rd 08, 06:02 PM

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:35:11 -0400, B A R R Y >
wrote:

>Big John wrote:
>>
>>
>> Some of us learned to fly IFR using needle, ball and airspeed (plus
>> whisky compass and altimeter).
>
>Many still do, in the partial panel section of most courses.
>
>I shot a full VOR approach, including two trips around a hold, on my IFR
>checkride, with a simulated vacuum failure. Turns were made with my
>whiskey compass and clock. I still had pitot-static instruments for
>pitch and altitude information.
*************************************

Barry

Glad you got the training and demonstrated proficiency.

Even with today's 'equipment', GOOD insurance to have for that one
time.

Big John