Barnstormer's Briegleb BG-12 For Sale (also advertised on WandW)

[cursingcomputers]

Anybody out there know who might have wound up with this plane?
Lukasz Barowicz was in the listing, but he referred all inquiries to
Joe Bennis. I made a deal with Joe Bennis and bought it. Then a few
weeks later I got my money back along with a bit of B.S. about the
seller deciding not to sell. Both persons involved here then claimed
the plane was owned by the other guy and they didn't know what
happened. Obviously they can't both be telling the truth. I figured
they got a better offer after making the deal with me and just flat
out screwed me. It was a lesson learned and I'm glad to have gotten my
money back without going to court. I've got nothing against whoever
gets the plane as that person probably has no idea what was going on
in the background. I just have an interest in BG-12's and where they
are today.

[JJ Sinclair]

More likely they decided they didn't want the liability incurred in
selling an old wooden ship that one of them built. Remember, the
builder is listed as the manufactuer and who wants someone asking
questions after an accident........for what, a few bucks? No way! I
donated an old wooden ship that I built to the Southwest Soaring
Museum with the stipulation that it would be put on display, not
flown, not sold.
Believe me, you didn't miss out on much in not getting a BG-12, the
wings weigh a ton and all your friends will hide when you show up
pulling a BG. There is a good Duster on the market that is more user
friendly........I know a guy that got all his Diamonds in one.
JJ

cursingcomputers wrote:
> Anybody out there know who might have wound up with this plane?
> Lukasz Barowicz was in the listing, but he referred all inquiries to
> Joe Bennis. I made a deal with Joe Bennis and bought it. Then a few
> weeks later I got my money back along with a bit of B.S. about the
> seller deciding not to sell. Both persons involved here then claimed
> the plane was owned by the other guy and they didn't know what
> happened. Obviously they can't both be telling the truth. I figured
> they got a better offer after making the deal with me and just flat
> out screwed me. It was a lesson learned and I'm glad to have gotten my
> money back without going to court. I've got nothing against whoever
> gets the plane as that person probably has no idea what was going on
> in the background. I just have an interest in BG-12's and where they
> are today.

[cursingcomputers]

Well, however it may be, if a seller decides they don't want a
liability, that sort of thing should be decided before you advertise
publicly something for sale, make a deal, and take somebody's money.
After the sale is definitely the wrong time to make that decision. If,
however, both persons I dealt with had come up with the same story
after the deal fell through I would have had to accept that this was
what happened. Two widely differing stories though. This plane also
had an AP claiming it was perfectly airworthy, had logs, and would be
freshly inspected. I don't think after a plane has been flown without
problem for many hours and has been inspected by a professional that
one could easily claim manufacturers defect either. If you can't trust
an experienced inspector's opinion how can you trust any plane ever.
It was just bad business anyway you look at it. I would point out to
anyone selling any kind of vehicle that if you honestly fear liability
that's what "hold harmless" type documents were created for. I don't
know that either of these persons I dealt with were the actual builder
in any case, and the more steps of ownership you have between the
original builder and the present owner, the more tenuous liability
issues become. With today's lawsuit paranoia (and of course its not
completely unjustified) it is hard to imagine that any second hand
market exists. I guess organizations like the Vintage Sailplane
Association may as well get ready to fold up shop and go home because
the old guys that own old planes can't fly them forever. When they die
they may as well put the guy in his plane and set it on fire.

I guess the other thing I would mention about the plane is that it was
supposed to be a BG-12BD which had a lighter two piece wing. Probably
still not light enough for most guys, but I'm just not most guys. I
drive a W123 bodied Mercedes 240d which is one of the heaviest cars
for its horsepower you'll find. Heavy doesn't have to equal bad and
can in fact (but not always) equal durable.

As to the Duster, I have seen a few of those and while its performance
and looks can't match the BG-12's (and of course 20lb. less payload-
I'm about 200lb. with a parachute- and 7ft. wing center section), it
is a very respectable home-built and I like them a lot. Would be
interested to know where the guy flying for Diamonds was and how many
attempts were made. There's a story in the July 1973 Soaring by Jim
Hayes about his Diamond altitude and distance in a BG-12 landing at El
Mirage. He'd been flying his BG-12 about 46 hours before that attempt
(otherwise a very experienced commercial pilot). I wouldn't mind
owning a Duster if the price was right, but I'm not 100% sure I'm
ready to try another plane purchase right now. Where is the one to
which you refer advertised?

Thanks for the response. It does me good to talk about it I think.
Hopefully I don't come off sounding like a bitter know it all.
Everyone gets a bad deal from time to time, but I often wish it didn't
start out with "you can trust me" or "I wouldn't do a guy that way;
I've got a reputation."

[cursingcomputers]

Jeez! I'm long winded too.

[JJ Sinclair]

Look on page 6 of Tim's Wings& Wheels for a good looking Duster
located in Tehachapi, CA.

I forget the guys name, but he flew all 3 diamonds in a Duster
sailplane out of Minden, back in the '70's. It was written up in
Soaring, "Diamonds in a Duster", but I cant find it in their archives.
JJ

cursingcomputers wrote:
> Well, however it may be, if a seller decides they don't want a
> liability, that sort of thing should be decided before you advertise
> publicly something for sale, make a deal, and take somebody's money.
> After the sale is definitely the wrong time to make that decision. If,
> however, both persons I dealt with had come up with the same story
> after the deal fell through I would have had to accept that this was
> what happened. Two widely differing stories though. This plane also
> had an AP claiming it was perfectly airworthy, had logs, and would be
> freshly inspected. I don't think after a plane has been flown without
> problem for many hours and has been inspected by a professional that
> one could easily claim manufacturers defect either. If you can't trust
> an experienced inspector's opinion how can you trust any plane ever.
> It was just bad business anyway you look at it. I would point out to
> anyone selling any kind of vehicle that if you honestly fear liability
> that's what "hold harmless" type documents were created for. I don't
> know that either of these persons I dealt with were the actual builder
> in any case, and the more steps of ownership you have between the
> original builder and the present owner, the more tenuous liability
> issues become. With today's lawsuit paranoia (and of course its not
> completely unjustified) it is hard to imagine that any second hand
> market exists. I guess organizations like the Vintage Sailplane
> Association may as well get ready to fold up shop and go home because
> the old guys that own old planes can't fly them forever. When they die
> they may as well put the guy in his plane and set it on fire.
>
> I guess the other thing I would mention about the plane is that it was
> supposed to be a BG-12BD which had a lighter two piece wing. Probably
> still not light enough for most guys, but I'm just not most guys. I
> drive a W123 bodied Mercedes 240d which is one of the heaviest cars
> for its horsepower you'll find. Heavy doesn't have to equal bad and
> can in fact (but not always) equal durable.
>
> As to the Duster, I have seen a few of those and while its performance
> and looks can't match the BG-12's (and of course 20lb. less payload-
> I'm about 200lb. with a parachute- and 7ft. wing center section), it
> is a very respectable home-built and I like them a lot. Would be
> interested to know where the guy flying for Diamonds was and how many
> attempts were made. There's a story in the July 1973 Soaring by Jim
> Hayes about his Diamond altitude and distance in a BG-12 landing at El
> Mirage. He'd been flying his BG-12 about 46 hours before that attempt
> (otherwise a very experienced commercial pilot). I wouldn't mind
> owning a Duster if the price was right, but I'm not 100% sure I'm
> ready to try another plane purchase right now. Where is the one to
> which you refer advertised?
>
> Thanks for the response. It does me good to talk about it I think.
> Hopefully I don't come off sounding like a bitter know it all.
> Everyone gets a bad deal from time to time, but I often wish it didn't
> start out with "you can trust me" or "I wouldn't do a guy that way;
> I've got a reputation."

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately, some builders DO burn their ships instead of allowing
someone else to fly them. There have been few, if any, succesful
lawsuits but the fear weighs heavily on some and theoretically a
builder could get screwed. Fortunately many homebuilt aircraft
outlive their builders for one reason or another. I've had some great
flights in a Woodstock that was entrusted to me. Search this group for
Cherokee sailplane and you'll find another guy who is having a ton of
fun with an old wood homebuilt.

The "guy" who got all his diamonds in the Duster is, if I remember
correctly, the over modest JJ Sinclair

If you have your heart set on a BG I may have one for sale in the next
few months. I'm currently evaluating a very nice one that may go to
one of my local pilots. If he doesn't fit the BG I might be willing
to part with it.

Are you familier with the Yahoo Group for BG-12s?

Matt Michae
Ames, Iowa


On Apr 6, 2:00*am, cursingcomputers > wrote:
> Well, however it may be, if a seller decides they don't want a
> liability, that sort of thing should be decided before you advertise
> publicly something for sale, make a deal, and take somebody's money.
> After the sale is definitely the wrong time to make that decision. If,
> however, both persons I dealt with had come up with the same story
> after the deal fell through I would have had to accept that this was
> what happened. Two widely differing stories though. This plane also
> had an AP claiming it was perfectly airworthy, had logs, and would be
> freshly inspected. I don't think after a plane has been flown without
> problem for many hours and has been inspected by a professional that
> one could easily claim manufacturers defect either. If you can't trust
> an experienced inspector's opinion how can you trust any plane ever.
> It was just bad business anyway you look at it. I would point out to
> anyone selling any kind of vehicle that if you honestly fear liability
> that's what "hold harmless" type documents were created for. I don't
> know that either of these persons I dealt with were the actual builder
> in any case, and the more steps of ownership you have between the
> original builder and the present owner, the more tenuous liability
> issues become. *With today's lawsuit paranoia (and of course its not
> completely unjustified) it is hard to imagine that any second hand
> market exists. I guess organizations like the Vintage Sailplane
> Association may as well get ready to fold up shop and go home because
> the old guys that own old planes can't fly them forever. When they die
> they may as well put the guy in his plane and set it on fire.
>
> I guess the other thing I would mention about the plane is that it was
> supposed to be a BG-12BD which had a lighter two piece wing. Probably
> still not light enough for most guys, but I'm just not most guys. I
> drive a W123 bodied Mercedes 240d which is one of the heaviest cars
> for its horsepower you'll find. Heavy doesn't have to equal bad and
> can in fact (but not always) equal durable.
>
> As to the Duster, I have seen a few of those and while its performance
> and looks can't match the BG-12's (and of course 20lb. less payload-
> I'm about 200lb. with a parachute- and 7ft. wing center section), it
> is a very respectable home-built and I like them a lot. Would be
> interested to know where the guy flying for Diamonds was and how many
> attempts were made. *There's a story in the July 1973 Soaring by Jim
> Hayes about his Diamond altitude and distance in a BG-12 landing at El
> Mirage. He'd been flying his BG-12 about 46 hours before that attempt
> (otherwise a very experienced commercial pilot). I wouldn't mind
> owning a Duster if the price was right, but I'm not 100% sure I'm
> ready to try another plane purchase right now. Where is the one to
> which you refer advertised?
>
> Thanks for the response. It does me good to talk about it I think.
> Hopefully I don't come off sounding like a bitter know it all.
> Everyone gets a bad deal from time to time, but I often wish it didn't
> start out with "you can trust me" or "I wouldn't do a guy that way;
> I've got a reputation."

[cursingcomputers]

>
> The "guy" who got all his diamonds in the Duster is, if I remember
> correctly, the over modest JJ Sinclair
>

To Matt in Ames: I have to admit, I laughed mighty hard when I read
that! And here's me naively saying 'you know there was this guy who
did 2 Diamonds in a BG-12.' They probably flew over the same ground
and knew each other personally as well. I've read several JJSinclair
posts in various forums, and have made a guess that he's got a barn
full of enough parts to build several planes, but I didn't know the
name in connection to the Soaring article. I haven't had the pleasure
of reading that particular one. I have read about the "Cherokee Kid"
though. He has stories of flying his plane I think on his flying
club's website......Just found the link in my Bookmarks. Is that your
club as well?



As to the BG-12 group, I somehow missed its existence for quite a long
time and had just joined the day of or the day before the original
post in this thread. I'll try to email you.

[cursingcomputers]

In another follow up; I just saw your picture on the club site.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 7, 7:48*am, cursingcomputers > wrote:
> In another follow up; I just saw your picture on the club site.

There are also some photos and stories of my Woodstock sailplane at
the unofficial woodstock website easily found by searching google for
woodstock sailplane.

MM

[JJ Sinclair]

Around 1975, Jerry Nedower flew his 3rd diamond in a BG-12/16. I
believe his flight was; Minden, Independance, Hawthorne. I tried the
same flight in my Duster, but landed at the north end of the Whites at
Nicholes ranch. As I waited for my crew, I came up with the 'big plan'
to use the Whites as much as possible. The next week I declared a road
intersection on the east side of Owens lake that allowad me to fly the
Whites twice. It worked and I got my diamond distance with a landing
at Janies Ranch (a house of ill repute) just off highway 6 on the
north end of the Owens Valley. I used the same strategy when planning
my 1000K flight out of Minden, except this time I used the Whites 4
times! Minden to Seragordo Mine to Schuez to USAF Radar with a planned
landing at Bishop. I worked and the LS-7 did itself proud.
JJ

cursingcomputers wrote:
> >
> > The "guy" who got all his diamonds in the Duster is, if I remember
> > correctly, the over modest JJ Sinclair
> >
>
> To Matt in Ames: I have to admit, I laughed mighty hard when I read
> that! And here's me naively saying 'you know there was this guy who
> did 2 Diamonds in a BG-12.' They probably flew over the same ground
> and knew each other personally as well. I've read several JJSinclair
> posts in various forums, and have made a guess that he's got a barn
> full of enough parts to build several planes, but I didn't know the
> name in connection to the Soaring article. I haven't had the pleasure
> of reading that particular one. I have read about the "Cherokee Kid"
> though. He has stories of flying his plane I think on his flying
> club's website......Just found the link in my Bookmarks. Is that your
> club as well?
>
>
>
> As to the BG-12 group, I somehow missed its existence for quite a long
> time and had just joined the day of or the day before the original
> post in this thread. I'll try to email you.

[cursingcomputers]

Well more in the "buyer beware" learning experience; I got word from
some other people. Looks like the plane I "bought" really didn't
belong to either of the people selling it. Lukasz Barowicz by all
accounts has never owned any aircraft and he doesn't seem to know what
the N-number was on the plane he was allegedly selling. It certainly
wasn't built by him, and there is only one BG-12BD in FAA records in
NY. (Also not built by its present owner.)

[[email protected]]

> I have read about the "Cherokee Kid"
> though. He has stories of flying his plane I think on his flying
> club's website......Just found the link in my Bookmarks. Is that your
> club as well?

Yes thats our club, Silent Knights in Ames, IA. www.knightglider.com/flightreports.htm
Glad you like the stories, Ill try to keep having fun flying short
flights this summer!