how would you enter this pattern?

[Cubdriver]

Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
and SE. My favorite destination airport has two runways, grass 14/32
and asphalt 10/28. I much prefer to land on the grass, which is
primarily for ultralights, while everyone else prefers the asphalt
because it seems longer even though it isn't. (The grass runway
crosses the asphalt so most of us who use it confine our activities to
the northern part.)

The usual wind direction is from the north or west, so the traffic
pattern for runway 32 keeps me well out of the traffic for runway 28.
But the spring is a different matter. I've never landed on 14, and it
seems to me that a normal 45 entry would put me directly above the
asphalt runway, so that when I turned downwind I would intersect the
downwind leg for runway 10. That seems unnecessarily provocative!

What would you do? (Yeah, yeah, you'd land on the asphalt, but dang,
it's rough! And grass is where Cubs belong.)

Most everybody in these parts favors the 45 entry, sometimes from the
opposite direction with a midfield crossover to the downwind. But in
this case, midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the
downwind leg for 10.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Robert A. Barker]

"Cubdriver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
...
>
> Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
> and SE. My favorite destination airport has two runways, grass 14/32
> and asphalt 10/28. I much prefer to land on the grass, which is
> primarily for ultralights,
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>
Dan: This must be Plum Island (2B2). I would
land on 10. BTDT :-)

Bob Barker N8749S

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 05:53:07 -0400, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT
net> wrote:

>
>Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
>and SE. My favorite destination airport has two runways, grass 14/32
>and asphalt 10/28. I much prefer to land on the grass, which is
>primarily for ultralights, while everyone else prefers the asphalt
>because it seems longer even though it isn't. (The grass runway
>crosses the asphalt so most of us who use it confine our activities to
>the northern part.)
>
>The usual wind direction is from the north or west, so the traffic
>pattern for runway 32 keeps me well out of the traffic for runway 28.
>But the spring is a different matter. I've never landed on 14, and it
>seems to me that a normal 45 entry would put me directly above the
>asphalt runway, so that when I turned downwind I would intersect the
>downwind leg for runway 10. That seems unnecessarily provocative!
>
>What would you do? (Yeah, yeah, you'd land on the asphalt, but dang,
>it's rough! And grass is where Cubs belong.)
>
>Most everybody in these parts favors the 45 entry, sometimes from the
>opposite direction with a midfield crossover to the downwind. But in
>this case, midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the
>downwind leg for 10.

If the airport is indeed 2B2 <http://www.airnav.com/airport/2B2>,
given that the "ULTRALIGHT PATTERN ALTITUDE 400 FT AGL", if use that
altitude, you shouldn't interfere with the downwind leg of the other
runway. After all, your Cub is a LSA. :-)

[BT]

Midfield cross overs should not be an issue, we have parallel runways,
normally power on the west and glider on the east and we always cross over
the top coming from the west to east, to fly the east side downwind to the
east runway. Look, announce, look, look, look, do, look, look.

BT

"Cubdriver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
...
>
> Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
> and SE. My favorite destination airport has two runways, grass 14/32
> and asphalt 10/28. I much prefer to land on the grass, which is
> primarily for ultralights, while everyone else prefers the asphalt
> because it seems longer even though it isn't. (The grass runway
> crosses the asphalt so most of us who use it confine our activities to
> the northern part.)
>
> The usual wind direction is from the north or west, so the traffic
> pattern for runway 32 keeps me well out of the traffic for runway 28.
> But the spring is a different matter. I've never landed on 14, and it
> seems to me that a normal 45 entry would put me directly above the
> asphalt runway, so that when I turned downwind I would intersect the
> downwind leg for runway 10. That seems unnecessarily provocative!
>
> What would you do? (Yeah, yeah, you'd land on the asphalt, but dang,
> it's rough! And grass is where Cubs belong.)
>
> Most everybody in these parts favors the 45 entry, sometimes from the
> opposite direction with a midfield crossover to the downwind. But in
> this case, midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the
> downwind leg for 10.
>
>
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>
> Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
> new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Bill Denton[_2_]]

"midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the downwind leg for 10"

Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern altitude + 500 feet
this shouldn't be an issue...




"BT" > wrote in message
...
> Midfield cross overs should not be an issue, we have parallel runways,
> normally power on the west and glider on the east and we always cross over
> the top coming from the west to east, to fly the east side downwind to the
> east runway. Look, announce, look, look, look, do, look, look.
>
> BT
>
> "Cubdriver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
>> and SE. My favorite destination airport has two runways, grass 14/32
>> and asphalt 10/28. I much prefer to land on the grass, which is
>> primarily for ultralights, while everyone else prefers the asphalt
>> because it seems longer even though it isn't. (The grass runway
>> crosses the asphalt so most of us who use it confine our activities to
>> the northern part.)
>>
>> The usual wind direction is from the north or west, so the traffic
>> pattern for runway 32 keeps me well out of the traffic for runway 28.
>> But the spring is a different matter. I've never landed on 14, and it
>> seems to me that a normal 45 entry would put me directly above the
>> asphalt runway, so that when I turned downwind I would intersect the
>> downwind leg for runway 10. That seems unnecessarily provocative!
>>
>> What would you do? (Yeah, yeah, you'd land on the asphalt, but dang,
>> it's rough! And grass is where Cubs belong.)
>>
>> Most everybody in these parts favors the 45 entry, sometimes from the
>> opposite direction with a midfield crossover to the downwind. But in
>> this case, midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the
>> downwind leg for 10.
>>
>>
>> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>>
>> Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
>> new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com
>
>

[Bob Martin]

Cubdriver wrote:
> Okay, it's spring on the seacoast and the wind is coming from the E
<snip>
>
> What would you do? (Yeah, yeah, you'd land on the asphalt, but dang,
> it's rough! And grass is where Cubs belong.)

If I insisted on grass, probably enter on an extended left base. Has the bonus of putting
you about on the 45 for 10.

Personally, I don't like the 45. There are much better methods, and I'm not going to fly
miles out of my way and backtrack just to get on the sacred 45 if I'm on the other side of
the airport. Use the radio, your eyes, and your brain, and don't cut people off without
asking them politely.

[Cubdriver]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:47:47 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>If the airport is indeed 2B2 <http://www.airnav.com/airport/2B2>,
>given that the "ULTRALIGHT PATTERN ALTITUDE 400 FT AGL", if use that
>altitude, you shouldn't interfere with the downwind leg of the other
>runway. After all, your Cub is a LSA. :-)

LSA is not Ultralight, though. Is it? What would the FAA say to that
argument?

When I was training, my instructor used to take me down to Plum Island
so as to land on asphalt. One day I was landing on 10 and a Thing was
floating in on 14 and of course disappeared under my left tire. I
moaned.

Said Brian: "XXXX, I wish they'd give those XXXX a certificate so they
could take it away from them!"

His wish of course has come true.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Cubdriver]

On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:35:41 GMT, "Bill Denton"
> wrote:

>"midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the downwind leg for 10"
>
>Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern altitude + 500 feet
>this shouldn't be an issue...

But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what I do, and that's
what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.

Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which my instructor
says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the pattern at TPA, says he.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Cubdriver]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:32:42 -0400, Bob Martin >
wrote:

>If I insisted on grass, probably enter on an extended left base. Has the bonus of putting
>you about on the 45 for 10.

Yes, that one looked pretty good to me as well.

>
>Personally, I don't like the 45. There are much better methods, and I'm not going to fly
>miles out of my way and backtrack just to get on the sacred 45 if I'm on the other side of
>the airport. Use the radio, your eyes, and your brain, and don't cut people off without
>asking them politely.

Um, I can't transmit on the radio. Ignition problem. I can hear just
fine.

I often approach on the 45 for the "wrong" side, cross over, and turn
downwind. All at TPA, as I was taught.

(I hate the 45. Those are the longest miles I fly, wondering why I am
approaching the runway that I can't possibly reach if the engine
quits. What do you guys think of descending on the 45?)


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:09:11 -0400, Cubdriver wrote:



>>Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern altitude + 500 feet
>>this shouldn't be an issue...
>
>But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what I do, and that's
>what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.
>
>Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which my instructor
>says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the pattern at TPA, says he.

Amen.

--
Dan
T182T at 4R4

[Mike Isaksen]

>>> Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern
>>> altitude + 500 feet this shouldn't be an issue...
>>
>> But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what
>> I do, and that's what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.
>>
>> Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which
>> my instructor says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the
>> pattern at TPA, says he.

(I missed the earlier part of the thread so this may be dup), but I too do
all my maneuvering at +500 or more above the pattern. Especially if I'm
nordo or get nothing on the unicom. Then I usually like to come in and peak
at the sock, and maybe do a few orbits to look the field over. Or when I'm
coming from opposite side of the pattern. In all cases, when I've finished
looking, I proceed outbound perpendicular to the downwind at +500. And about
a mile from the downwind I will initiate a descending right turn (225deg)
ending at TPA on the 1 mile 45 to the downwind. I've always preferred this
as I get to loiter above the TPA for as long as I need, and then the big
turn onto the 45 becomes a giant clearing turn.

I've seen others inbound from the opposite side, crossing midfield at TPA
and joining the downwind with a left hand turn. That works for them, but I
never liked it because I've seen it bunch up the downwind.

One thing for sure, in the years I've been flying this (entering the
downwind from opposite side) has been the most discussed issue without ever
being resolved.

[EridanMan]

I have to respectfully disagree with this.

Overhead the field at 500+ TPA, the entire downwind leg is sprawled
before you and all traffic should be self evident. insert yourself
appropriately. This provides for a healthy separation if, say NORDO,
you find that there are no safe spots in the pattern and you must
abort to make another pattern entry attempt.

That said, my home field (towered) field has me call overhead at 500+
tpa and then drop into downwind... so its possible that I've just been
re-enforcing a bad habit.

-Scott



On Apr 10, 3:09 pm, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:35:41 GMT, "Bill Denton"
>
> > wrote:
> >"midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the downwind leg for 10"
>
> >Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern altitude + 500 feet
> >this shouldn't be an issue...
>
> But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what I do, and that's
> what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.
>
> Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which my instructor
> says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the pattern at TPA, says he.
>
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>
> Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
> new from HarperCollinswww.FlyingTigersBook.com

[WingFlaps]

On Apr 11, 10:09*am, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:35:41 GMT, "Bill Denton"
>
> > wrote:
> >"midfield crossover for 14 again puts me crossing the downwind leg for 10"
>
> >Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern altitude + 500 feet
> >this shouldn't be an issue...
>
> But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what I do, and that's
> what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.
>
> Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which my instructor
> says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the pattern at TPA, says he.
>
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>

Ever heard of a standard overhead joining proceedure?

Cheers

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Mike Isaksen" > wrote in
news:ZPALj.5357$mL2.4155@trndny03:

>
>>>> Given that you fly the midfield crossover at pattern
>>>> altitude + 500 feet this shouldn't be an issue...
>>>
>>> But I don't! We fly the crossover at TPA. That's what
>>> I do, and that's what I've seen dozens of other pilots do.
>>>
>>> Otherwise you are descending onto the downwind, which
>>> my instructor says is a no-no. Do everything in or near the
>>> pattern at TPA, says he.
>
> (I missed the earlier part of the thread so this may be dup), but I
> too do all my maneuvering at +500 or more above the pattern.
> Especially if I'm nordo or get nothing on the unicom. Then I usually
> like to come in and peak at the sock, and maybe do a few orbits to
> look the field over. Or when I'm coming from opposite side of the
> pattern. In all cases, when I've finished looking, I proceed outbound
> perpendicular to the downwind at +500. And about a mile from the
> downwind I will initiate a descending right turn (225deg) ending at
> TPA on the 1 mile 45 to the downwind. I've always preferred this as I
> get to loiter above the TPA for as long as I need, and then the big
> turn onto the 45 becomes a giant clearing turn.
>
> I've seen others inbound from the opposite side, crossing midfield at
> TPA and joining the downwind with a left hand turn. That works for
> them, but I never liked it because I've seen it bunch up the downwind.
>
> One thing for sure, in the years I've been flying this (entering the
> downwind from opposite side) has been the most discussed issue without
> ever being resolved.
>
>
>

Well, AFAIK< it's the standard, especially for non radio operations.

Bertie

[Cubdriver]

I too do
>all my maneuvering at +500 or more above the pattern. Especially if I'm
>nordo or get nothing on the unicom. Then I usually like to come in and peak
>at the sock, and maybe do a few orbits to look the field over. Or when I'm
>coming from opposite side of the pattern. In all cases, when I've finished
>looking, I proceed outbound perpendicular to the downwind at +500. And about
>a mile from the downwind I will initiate a descending right turn (225deg)
>ending at TPA on the 1 mile 45 to the downwind. I've always preferred this
>as I get to loiter above the TPA for as long as I need, and then the big
>turn onto the 45 becomes a giant clearing turn.

Okay, I misunderstood the earlier post. I'd call that overflying the
field, and going off a mile or so before descending is pretty much the
FAA way. (Wouldn't it be nice if the FAA, when not obsessing about
whether cable ties are one inch apart or an inch and a quarter, would
actually give some concrete guidance on this quesiton?)

>I've seen others inbound from the opposite side, crossing midfield at TPA
>and joining the downwind with a left hand turn. That works for them, but I
>never liked it because I've seen it bunch up the downwind.

We never did it either, and the first time I saw someone do it, I was
so spooked that I flew off for fifteen minutes or so until I was sure
he was landed or gone from the pattern. But after 9/11 we were told
never to go near, or fly in the direction of, the nuclear power plant
to our south. So entering the pattern from the west, regardless of
whether the wind was from north or south, became an accepted
alternative.

I rather like it. Entering from the "wrong" side seems to give me a
better picture of the pattern, and for example if somebody turns out
to be staying in the pattern for another landing, I can just make a
right turn on the upwind and follow him around. But I wouldn't do this
at another airport for fear the locals think otherwise.
>
>One thing for sure, in the years I've been flying this (entering the
>downwind from opposite side) has been the most discussed issue without ever
>being resolved.
>

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Cubdriver]

Okay, I finally got down to Plum Island yesterday, and guess what? The
wind (such as it was) was the summertime variety out of the NW, so I
landed on 32 after all.

And the radio worked. Perhaps last week there was somebody out there
with a stuck mike. (It was only the first time I'd flown the Cub with
the "new" engine; I assumed it was ignition noise that caused the
squeal when I tried to transmit.)

Thanks, everyone. Of all the suggestions for 14, I like the extended
left base the best. I'd overfly the runway heading SE, then make a
long left turn and descend to TPA perpendicular to 14, i.e.heading 230
degrees. Sounds like a plan!


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com