ZZZ Name Change for Sun-N-Fun?

[BobR]

I know that they changed the name to the Oshkosh event several years
back to AirVenture but when did they rename the Sun-N-Fun flyin to
Lakeland? Seems that zoom can't even report on the event using the
correct name or they have changed the name of the event....or he has a
bunch of Major Sponsors for another flyin entirely. Maybe we should
contact those "Major Sponsors" and ask them where they are since we
couldn't find the Lakeland 2008 event anywhere.

[comanche driver]

maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
name in public........

"BobR" > wrote in message
...
>I know that they changed the name to the Oshkosh event several years
> back to AirVenture but when did they rename the Sun-N-Fun flyin to
> Lakeland? Seems that zoom can't even report on the event using the
> correct name or they have changed the name of the event....or he has a
> bunch of Major Sponsors for another flyin entirely. Maybe we should
> contact those "Major Sponsors" and ask them where they are since we
> couldn't find the Lakeland 2008 event anywhere.
>

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, comanche driver
says...
>
>maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
>name in public........

I don't think that's the case it's seems to me it's just zoom being zoom.

See ya

Chuck S

[[email protected]]

On Apr 15, 7:36*am, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:
> In article >, comanche driver
> says...
>
>
>
> >maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
> >name in public........
>
> I don't think that's the case it's seems to me it's just zoom being zoom.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck S

I think that I may have found the reason for zzzoom's renaming of the
SnF Fly in.. Check the legal notices on the Sun-n-Fun web site. It
pretty well sums up who and when the SnF name or logo can be
used,interesting reading.

Frank M.Hitlaw at my Secret World Hq

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

> > >maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
> > >name in public........
> >
> > I don't think that's the case it's seems to me it's just zoom being zoom.
>
> I think that I may have found the reason for zzzoom's renaming of the
> SnF Fly in.. Check the legal notices on the Sun-n-Fun web site. It
> pretty well sums up who and when the SnF name or logo can be
> used,interesting reading.

No, such prohibitions generally apply only to those using the names for
marketing purposes. EAA has the same lockup on "Airventure", but they really,
REALLY want everyone to use that term instead of "Oshkosh." Can't see SnF being
any different.

In my opinion, Zoom doesn't refer specifically to Sun N Fun for the same reason
he only refers to Oysterhouse as "That nut from Oregon." Campbell has slammed
dozens of people by name, but "Ousterhout" is unique enough that if someone
searches for it, they come right up with the Zoomland page. So Campbell never
uses John's name.

Similarly, someone wondering about what Zoom has against Sun-N-Fun might search
the net and discover a bunch of material Zoom would rather they don't see. If
he can get a reader to search for "Campbell" and "Lakeland," instead, the
results are innocuous.

Ron Wanttaja

[John Ammeter]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
>>>> maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
>>>> name in public........
>>> I don't think that's the case it's seems to me it's just zoom being zoom.
>> I think that I may have found the reason for zzzoom's renaming of the
>> SnF Fly in.. Check the legal notices on the Sun-n-Fun web site. It
>> pretty well sums up who and when the SnF name or logo can be
>> used,interesting reading.
>
> No, such prohibitions generally apply only to those using the names for
> marketing purposes. EAA has the same lockup on "Airventure", but they really,
> REALLY want everyone to use that term instead of "Oshkosh." Can't see SnF being
> any different.
>
> In my opinion, Zoom doesn't refer specifically to Sun N Fun for the same reason
> he only refers to Oysterhouse as "That nut from Oregon." Campbell has slammed
> dozens of people by name, but "Ousterhout" is unique enough that if someone
> searches for it, they come right up with the Zoomland page. So Campbell never
> uses John's name.
>
> Similarly, someone wondering about what Zoom has against Sun-N-Fun might search
> the net and discover a bunch of material Zoom would rather they don't see. If
> he can get a reader to search for "Campbell" and "Lakeland," instead, the
> results are innocuous.
>
> Ron Wanttaja


I just figured that Campbell didn't know how to spell Ousterhout...

I'm still trying to remember how to spell Wanttaja...

Amprobe

[BobR]

On Apr 20, 3:04*pm, Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> > > >maybe the restraining order against him does not even allow him to use the
> > > >name in public........
>
> > > I don't think that's the case it's seems to me it's just zoom being zoom.
>
> > I think that I may have found the reason for zzzoom's renaming of the
> > SnF Fly in.. Check the legal notices on the Sun-n-Fun web site. It
> > pretty well sums up who and when the SnF name or logo can be
> > used,interesting reading.
>
> No, such prohibitions generally apply only to those using the names for
> marketing purposes. *EAA has the same lockup on "Airventure", but they really,
> REALLY want everyone to use that term instead of "Oshkosh." *Can't see SnF being
> any different.
>
> In my opinion, Zoom doesn't refer specifically to Sun N Fun for the same reason
> he only refers to Oysterhouse as "That nut from Oregon." *Campbell has slammed
> dozens of people by name, but "Ousterhout" is unique enough that if someone
> searches for it, they come right up with the Zoomland page. *So Campbell never
> uses John's name.
>
> Similarly, someone wondering about what Zoom has against Sun-N-Fun might search
> the net and discover a bunch of material Zoom would rather they don't see. *If
> he can get a reader to search for "Campbell" and "Lakeland," instead, the
> results are innocuous.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I agree Ron, he never seems to have any problem using the name Sun-N-
Fun when he is slamming them and trying to destroy the event. Only
when he is doing his so called coverage. I also noted that the only
coverage of the event was totally limited to his sponsors. Guess they
were the only one there or something.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >,
BobR says...
>
>I agree Ron, he never seems to have any problem using the name Sun-N-
>Fun when he is slamming them and trying to destroy the event. Only
>when he is doing his so called coverage. I also noted that the only
>coverage of the event was totally limited to his sponsors. Guess they
>were the only one there or something.

I noticed that as well but that's his usual "FAIR" style of reporting LOL!!!

I also read that he's got a chance to fly not one but two Rocket racers at
Oshkosh. Only zoomy can race himself at the same time ...what a guy ...what a
pilot !!! ...what a PHONEY....LOL!!!

I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers will be a
photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic of him in
the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)

Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret

"I'll believe it when I see it "

[Steve Foley]

"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...

> I noticed that as well but that's his usual "FAIR" style of reporting
LOL!!!
>
> I also read that he's got a chance to fly not one but two Rocket racers at
> Oshkosh. Only zoomy can race himself at the same time ...what a guy
....what a
> pilot !!! ...what a PHONEY....LOL!!!
>
> I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers will be
a
> photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic of
him in
> the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>
> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>
> "I'll believe it when I see it "
>

I think it's funny that someone as important as Jim Campbell had to wait for
a press conference to find out this news. I thought we was running the whole
league, single handed.

"The three big announcements at the recent Rocket Racing League Press
Conference were music to the ears of ANN's Editor-In-Chief, Jim Campbell...
"

[John Ousterhout[_2_]]

John Ammeter wrote:

> I just figured that Campbell didn't know how to spell Ousterhout...
>
> I'm still trying to remember how to spell Wanttaja...
>
> Amprobe

Ron Wanttaja may not know how to spell Ousterhout, but I assure you that
Jim Campbell does.

Publishing the truth about Zoom for over ten years.
http://www.ousterhout.net/zoom.html

- Filbert

[John Ousterhout[_2_]]

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>
> I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers will be a
> photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic of him in
> the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>
> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>
> "I'll believe it when I see it "


I believe that the chance of Captain Zoom ever racing a rocket is less
than the chance of me ever flying that F-104.

But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
in a Rocket Race.

- Filbert

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> wrote:

> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
> >
> > I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers will be a
> > photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic of him in
> > the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>
> I believe that the chance of Captain Zoom ever racing a rocket is less
> than the chance of me ever flying that F-104.
>
> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
> in a Rocket Race.

Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
Reno races at Oshkosh? Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
pre-programmed?

According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
computer-generated course. Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
bets.

Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:

http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwaybig.jpg

Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
the runway edge. We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)

Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. World record for a rocket pit stop is
something like three hours. Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
STILL a lot of gliding time.

Ron Wanttaja

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Ron Wanttaja says...
>
>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> wrote:
>
>Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
>Reno races at Oshkosh? Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
>pre-programmed?
>
>According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
>computer-generated course. Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
>the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
>Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
>bets.


Hmmm perception and reality at work here? The zoom touch is alive and well
LOL!!!

>
>Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
>
>http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwaybig.jpg
>
>Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
>the runway edge. We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)


That certainly isn't FAA's idea of a "crowd line" try having an airshow with the
crowd line so close to the action...NOT!! more perception and reality problems.

>
>Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
>the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. World record for a rocket pit stop is
>something like three hours. Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
>the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
>STILL a lot of gliding time.


I can hear the race announcer now ." Ladies and gentleman the race is on and see
that imaginary race course in the sky ? See how many of you can tell who's
winning the race OOOPPPS time for a pit stop while the action switches to the
pits for refueling.
While they're purging the tanks and doing a pre cool now's the time to go for a
dinner and visit of our sales mall.There you can enjoy a sit down meal and
dancing while the kids buy overpriced rocket models and play in the game room.

After dinner and dancing return to your seats for the exciting conclusion of the
ROCKET RACING's First heat.Thrills ,chills and excitement await us as the
Racers try to start their engines and OOOPPS we had a flame out ...Time to visit
out inhouse theater and watch an exciting movie staring the hero of stage screen
and Tv as he stars in the exciting movie the "Amazing Adventures of Capt Zoom
hero of the Universe".

While the refueling continues the Burbank RC Flyers will do a demonstration of
pylon racing with REAL model pylon racers.Now that's racing folks...While we're
waiting for the Pylon Racers to show up .Take a visit to our .....

I can hardly wait....

Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Is it just me or does the whole rocket racing league sound like a bad
idea? I'll admit I haven't looked into it much but it just feels like an
real bad series of accidents waiting to happen.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:09:07 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
> wrote:

>
> Is it just me or does the whole rocket racing league sound like a bad
> idea? I'll admit I haven't looked into it much but it just feels like an
> real bad series of accidents waiting to happen.

Well, let's see:

1. Each race ends with an emergency (e.g., an aircraft without of fuel).
2. If the race starts the way the RRL promotional artwork shows, multiple
aircraft will run out of fuel at the same time.
3. Ground tow vehicles will need to enter the active runway to drag the planes
off...while, of course, other planes are landing deadstick. I'm sure SOP will
be for the pilots to attempt to coast off at a taxiway, but we know that will
not happen all the time.
4. As I mentioned on a previous posting, the current record for refueling a
rocket plane to take off again will need to be bettered by a factor of ten or
twelve times.
5. This rapid refueling involves liquid oxygen at about -300 degrees F. Not
only are there the considerations involving dumping cryogenic fuel into a
vehicle holding a hot rocket engine, there are the hazards involved with LOX
itself. According to some online safety data, LOX can react violently with
"...oil, grease, asphalt, kerosene, cloth, tar, and dirt that may contain oil or
grease...." All of which are rife at a typical airport. And, again, keep in
mind the crew will be working *fast*...this IS a race, after all.
6. With LOX involved, most accidents are likely to be fatal for the pilot, with
huge fireballs. Responders (it's not likely they'll be "rescue crews") will
have to don appropriate protective gear.
7. To give them any chance at all, the pilots will need to wear complete
protective suits...which will probably hamper their vision.
8. There are no pylons or ground references for the course...pilots are
apparently going to be monitoring 3-D imagery through a HUD. While in close
proximity to other aircraft. While wearing a protective suit.

On the plus side, none of this should endanger spectators, as long as the pit
areas are kept far away (and preferably downwind).

It's even more exciting contemplating how the financial model for this is going
to work. All the aircraft, all the refueling stations, all the projection TVs,
etc. are going to have to be trucked to each race location. It'll take a while
to set up and get working right. Large hangars will have to be rented. Crowd
control, parking, concessions, porta-potties, everything involved in a major
public event have to be arranged. RRL is marketed as "NASCAR in the Sky," but
NASCAR holds its events in permanent facilities with all these problems already
taken care of.

RRL was supposed to hold its first event about two years ago; we're four months
from the first "race" and you can bet neither EAA nor Reno will be handing over
any gate receipts....

Ron Wanttaja

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
> Well, let's see:

OK, Ron, I'll agree with all your points except for the very first one:


> 1. Each race ends with an emergency (e.g., an aircraft without of fuel).

By this definition there are a powerful lot of soaring events/races
that are nothing but emergencies.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[Harry K]

On Apr 22, 5:59*am, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:
> In article >, Ron Wanttaja says....
>
>
>
> >On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> > wrote:
>
> >Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
> >Reno races at Oshkosh? *Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
> >pre-programmed?
>
> >According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
> >computer-generated course. *Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
> >the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
> >Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
> >bets.
>
> Hmmm perception and reality at work here? The zoom touch is alive and well
> LOL!!!
>
>
>
> >Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
>
> >http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwa...
>
> >Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
> >the runway edge. *We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)
>
> That certainly isn't FAA's idea of a "crowd line" try having an airshow with the
> crowd line so close to the action...NOT!! more perception and reality problems.
>
>
>
> >Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
> >the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. *World record for a rocket pit stop is
> >something like three hours. *Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
> >the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
> >STILL a lot of gliding time.
>
> I can hear the race announcer now ." Ladies and gentleman the race is on and see
> that imaginary race course in the sky ? See how many of you can tell who's
> winning the race OOOPPPS time for a pit stop while the action switches to the
> pits for refueling.
> While they're purging the tanks and doing a pre cool now's the time to go for a
> dinner and visit of our sales mall.There you can enjoy a sit down meal and
> dancing while the kids buy overpriced rocket models and play *in the game room.
>
> After dinner and dancing return to your seats for the exciting conclusion of the
> ROCKET *RACING's First heat.Thrills ,chills and excitement await us as the
> Racers try to start their engines and OOOPPS we had a flame out ...Time to visit
> out inhouse theater and watch an exciting movie staring the hero of stage screen
> and Tv as he stars in the exciting movie the "Amazing Adventures of Capt Zoom
> hero of the Universe".
>
> While the refueling continues the Burbank RC Flyers will do a demonstration of
> pylon racing with REAL model pylon racers.Now that's racing *folks...While we're
> waiting for the Pylon Racers to show up .Take a visit to our .....
>
> I can hardly wait....
>
> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret

That is just about my opinion of this pipe dream from the day I first
heard about it. It is running on what? 2 years? 3 years? now and no
progress that I have heard about, no planes flying that have been
reported in the news...

Bottom line? Don't hold your breath folks.

Harry K

[BobR]

Harry K wrote:
> On Apr 22, 5:59�am, ChuckSlusarczyk
> > wrote:
> > In article >, Ron Wanttaja says...
> >
> >
> >
> > >On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
> > >Reno races at Oshkosh? �Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
> > >pre-programmed?
> >
> > >According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
> > >computer-generated course. �Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
> > >the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
> > >Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
> > >bets.
> >
> > Hmmm perception and reality at work here? The zoom touch is alive and well
> > LOL!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > >Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
> >
> > >http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwa....
> >
> > >Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
> > >the runway edge. �We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)
> >
> > That certainly isn't FAA's idea of a "crowd line" try having an airshow with the
> > crowd line so close to the action...NOT!! more perception and reality problems.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
> > >the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. �World record for a rocket pit stop is
> > >something like three hours. �Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
> > >the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
> > >STILL a lot of gliding time.
> >
> > I can hear the race announcer now ." Ladies and gentleman the race is on and see
> > that imaginary race course in the sky ? See how many of you can tell who's
> > winning the race OOOPPPS time for a pit stop while the action switches to the
> > pits for refueling.
> > While they're purging the tanks and doing a pre cool now's the time to go for a
> > dinner and visit of our sales mall.There you can enjoy a sit down meal and
> > dancing while the kids buy overpriced rocket models and play �in the game room.
> >
> > After dinner and dancing return to your seats for the exciting conclusion of the
> > ROCKET �RACING's First heat.Thrills ,chills and excitement await us as the
> > Racers try to start their engines and OOOPPS we had a flame out ...Time to visit
> > out inhouse theater and watch an exciting movie staring the hero of stage screen
> > and Tv as he stars in the exciting movie the "Amazing Adventures of Capt Zoom
> > hero of the Universe".
> >
> > While the refueling continues the Burbank RC Flyers will do a demonstration of
> > pylon racing with REAL model pylon racers.Now that's racing �folks...While we're
> > waiting for the Pylon Racers to show up .Take a visit to our .....
> >
> > I can hardly wait....
> >
> > Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>
> That is just about my opinion of this pipe dream from the day I first
> heard about it. It is running on what? 2 years? 3 years? now and no
> progress that I have heard about, no planes flying that have been
> reported in the news...
>
> Bottom line? Don't hold your breath folks.
>
> Harry K

Could we ask ZOOM to hold his breath while we wait? <BFG>

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Frank Stutzman wrote:
> Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
>> Well, let's see:
>
> OK, Ron, I'll agree with all your points except for the very first one:
>
>
>> 1. Each race ends with an emergency (e.g., an aircraft without of fuel).
>
> By this definition there are a powerful lot of soaring events/races
> that are nothing but emergencies.
>

But these aren't gliders. Of course neither is the space shuttle. BUT.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

BobR wrote:
>
> Harry K wrote:


>>
>> Bottom line? Don't hold your breath folks.
>>
>> Harry K
>
> Could we ask ZOOM to hold his breath while we wait? <BFG>
>

The problem is they seem to have bought a perfectly good kit company.

http://kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/2008/04/rocket-racing-league-announces-schedule.html

Rocket Racing League Announces Schedule, Velocity Aircraft Sold


Positioning itself as a "new entertainment sports league that combines
the exhilaration of racing with the power of rocket engines," the Rocket
Racing League announced that it will stage its first exhibition race at
Oshkosh this year. The vehicles will be liquid-oxygen-fueled rockets in
modified Velocity airframes. Three more exhibition races will be held at
Reno (September 10-14), at the X-Prize Cup (Las Cruces, NM, date TBA),
and at Aviation Nation, Nellis Air Force Base (November 8-9).

No doubt to ensure an adequate supply of airframes, RRL's subsidiary,
Rocket Racing Composite Corporation, has purchased Velocity Aircraft. It
is expected that Velocity will continue selling and servicing the
Velocity as an Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft.

According to RRL, "Under the terms of the agreement, Velocity Aircraft
will become a wholly owned division of Rocket Racing Composite Corp. and
will produce an airframe that will be consistent for all competing
Rocket Racers. Through a rigorous research and development, all
Velocity-constructed Rocket Racers will be equipped with the
safest-possible airframe for any kind of aircraft. The cockpit seats for
all Rocket Racers will be reinforced to withstand impacts up to 20G load
and other safety measures will be added using a methodology similar to
that of F-1 and Indy Car to better protect pilots and passengers alike."

According to the press release, "Scott Baker, president of Velocity,
Inc. offered his enthusiastic remarks that, 'Velocity is truly excited
to be a part of Rocket Racing. Many of the technology advances that are
planned for the Rocket Racer models transcend and offer performance and
comfort benefits to Velocity owners who use their aircraft for personal
and business travel.' "


No word on the availability of the rocket engine for homebuilders.

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Gig 601Xl Builder > wrote:

> But these aren't gliders. Of course neither is the space shuttle. BUT.

But if he expects the engine to quit mid-flight before he even gets in
the plane, can it still be considered an emergency?

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[Big John]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:56:59 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
> wrote:

>On Apr 22, 5:59*am, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:
>> In article >, Ron Wanttaja says...
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
>> >Reno races at Oshkosh? *Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
>> >pre-programmed?
>>
>> >According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
>> >computer-generated course. *Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
>> >the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
>> >Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
>> >bets.
>>
>> Hmmm perception and reality at work here? The zoom touch is alive and well
>> LOL!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> >Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
>>
>> >http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwa...
>>
>> >Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
>> >the runway edge. *We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)
>>
>> That certainly isn't FAA's idea of a "crowd line" try having an airshow with the
>> crowd line so close to the action...NOT!! more perception and reality problems.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
>> >the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. *World record for a rocket pit stop is
>> >something like three hours. *Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
>> >the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
>> >STILL a lot of gliding time.
>>
>> I can hear the race announcer now ." Ladies and gentleman the race is on and see
>> that imaginary race course in the sky ? See how many of you can tell who's
>> winning the race OOOPPPS time for a pit stop while the action switches to the
>> pits for refueling.
>> While they're purging the tanks and doing a pre cool now's the time to go for a
>> dinner and visit of our sales mall.There you can enjoy a sit down meal and
>> dancing while the kids buy overpriced rocket models and play *in the game room.
>>
>> After dinner and dancing return to your seats for the exciting conclusion of the
>> ROCKET *RACING's First heat.Thrills ,chills and excitement await us as the
>> Racers try to start their engines and OOOPPS we had a flame out ...Time to visit
>> out inhouse theater and watch an exciting movie staring the hero of stage screen
>> and Tv as he stars in the exciting movie the "Amazing Adventures of Capt Zoom
>> hero of the Universe".
>>
>> While the refueling continues the Burbank RC Flyers will do a demonstration of
>> pylon racing with REAL model pylon racers.Now that's racing *folks...While we're
>> waiting for the Pylon Racers to show up .Take a visit to our .....
>>
>> I can hardly wait....
>>
>> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>
>That is just about my opinion of this pipe dream from the day I first
>heard about it. It is running on what? 2 years? 3 years? now and no
>progress that I have heard about, no planes flying that have been
>reported in the news...
>
>Bottom line? Don't hold your breath folks.
>
>Harry K
**************************************

Does anyone think Moller has some mony in this?

Big John

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:21:50 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:

> Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
> > Well, let's see:
>
> OK, Ron, I'll agree with all your points except for the very first one:
>
>
> > 1. Each race ends with an emergency (e.g., an aircraft without of fuel).
>
> By this definition there are a powerful lot of soaring events/races
> that are nothing but emergencies.

Oh, I'll grant you it's not technically an emergency since it's the intent to
land dry. But then, these aren't sailplanes. "Landing-out" in a Schempp-Hirth
is likely to be a LOT more survivable than if a RRL racer can't make the runway.
The Space Shuttle deadsticks, too, but they've got very pricey simulators and
the Gulfstream to practice with. Can't do a lot of touch-and-goes with four
minutes of fuel....

The airplanes and pilots are all festooned with cameras, transmitting data to
the ground in real-time. Everyone will have a front-row seat to the accidents.

You can replace #1, if you like, with: "If the FIRST racer to land crashes on
the runway, all the following ones are going to be in a world of hurt...." I
expect the FAA will demand contingency plans in place (alternate runways,
landing on taxiways, etc.) but odds are there'll be somebody badly positioned if
the primary runway goes down. Will the fire trucks even be allowed to respond
before all the racers have landed?

Ron Wanttaja

[Harry K]

On Apr 22, 12:30*pm, Gig 601Xl Builder >
wrote:
> BobR wrote:
>
> > Harry K wrote:
>
> >> Bottom line? *Don't hold your breath folks.
>
> >> Harry K
>
> > Could we ask ZOOM to hold his breath while we wait? *<BFG>
>
> The problem is they seem to have bought a perfectly good kit company.
>
> http://kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/2008/04/rocket-racing-league-announc...
>
> Rocket Racing League Announces Schedule, Velocity Aircraft Sold
>
> Positioning itself as a "new entertainment sports league that combines
> the exhilaration of racing with the power of rocket engines," the Rocket
> Racing League announced that it will stage its first exhibition race at
> Oshkosh this year. The vehicles will be liquid-oxygen-fueled rockets in
> modified Velocity airframes. Three more exhibition races will be held at
> Reno (September 10-14), at the X-Prize Cup (Las Cruces, NM, date TBA),
> and at Aviation Nation, Nellis Air Force Base (November 8-9).
>
> No doubt to ensure an adequate supply of airframes, RRL's subsidiary,
> Rocket Racing Composite Corporation, has purchased Velocity Aircraft. It
> is expected that Velocity will continue selling and servicing the
> Velocity as an Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft.
>
> According to RRL, "Under the terms of the agreement, Velocity Aircraft
> will become a wholly owned division of Rocket Racing Composite Corp. and
> will produce an airframe that will be consistent for all competing
> Rocket Racers. Through a rigorous research and development, all
> Velocity-constructed Rocket Racers will be equipped with the
> safest-possible airframe for any kind of aircraft. The cockpit seats for
> all Rocket Racers will be reinforced to withstand impacts up to 20G load
> and other safety measures will be added using a methodology similar to
> that of F-1 and Indy Car to better protect pilots and passengers alike."
>
> According to the press release, "Scott Baker, president of Velocity,
> Inc. offered his enthusiastic remarks that, 'Velocity is truly excited
> to be a part of Rocket Racing. Many of the technology advances that are
> planned for the Rocket Racer models transcend and offer performance and
> comfort benefits to Velocity owners who use their aircraft for personal
> and business travel.' "
>
> No word on the availability of the rocket engine for homebuilders.

I notice an awful lot of "wills" in there and no "do"s. Reads just
like a press release for vapor ware. It only says they will be doing
'lots of things' and not one "we have done" in relation to acturally
_building_ a plane. If all they have done is what is quoted above,
they aren't even gonna come close to having flyable airframes by
Oshkosh.

Harry K

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Harry K wrote:
> On Apr 22, 12:30 pm, Gig 601Xl Builder >
> wrote:
>
>>BobR wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Harry K wrote:
>>
>>>>Bottom line? Don't hold your breath folks.
>>
>>>>Harry K
>>
>>>Could we ask ZOOM to hold his breath while we wait? <BFG>
>>
>>The problem is they seem to have bought a perfectly good kit company.
>>
>>http://kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/2008/04/rocket-racing-league-announc...
>>
>>Rocket Racing League Announces Schedule, Velocity Aircraft Sold
>>
>>Positioning itself as a "new entertainment sports league that combines
>>the exhilaration of racing with the power of rocket engines," the Rocket
>>Racing League announced that it will stage its first exhibition race at
>>Oshkosh this year. The vehicles will be liquid-oxygen-fueled rockets in
>>modified Velocity airframes. Three more exhibition races will be held at
>>Reno (September 10-14), at the X-Prize Cup (Las Cruces, NM, date TBA),
>>and at Aviation Nation, Nellis Air Force Base (November 8-9).
>>
>>No doubt to ensure an adequate supply of airframes, RRL's subsidiary,
>>Rocket Racing Composite Corporation, has purchased Velocity Aircraft. It
>>is expected that Velocity will continue selling and servicing the
>>Velocity as an Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft.
>>
>>According to RRL, "Under the terms of the agreement, Velocity Aircraft
>>will become a wholly owned division of Rocket Racing Composite Corp. and
>>will produce an airframe that will be consistent for all competing
>>Rocket Racers. Through a rigorous research and development, all
>>Velocity-constructed Rocket Racers will be equipped with the
>>safest-possible airframe for any kind of aircraft. The cockpit seats for
>>all Rocket Racers will be reinforced to withstand impacts up to 20G load
>>and other safety measures will be added using a methodology similar to
>>that of F-1 and Indy Car to better protect pilots and passengers alike."
>>
>>According to the press release, "Scott Baker, president of Velocity,
>>Inc. offered his enthusiastic remarks that, 'Velocity is truly excited
>>to be a part of Rocket Racing. Many of the technology advances that are
>>planned for the Rocket Racer models transcend and offer performance and
>>comfort benefits to Velocity owners who use their aircraft for personal
>>and business travel.' "
>>
>>No word on the availability of the rocket engine for homebuilders.
>
>
> I notice an awful lot of "wills" in there and no "do"s. Reads just
> like a press release for vapor ware. It only says they will be doing
> 'lots of things' and not one "we have done" in relation to acturally
> _building_ a plane. If all they have done is what is quoted above,
> they aren't even gonna come close to having flyable airframes by
> Oshkosh.
>
> Harry K


I read the book.

They actually did (a demo?) race - once.

Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

[Darrel Toepfer]

Gig 601Xl Builder > wrote:

> Rocket Racing League Announces Schedule, Velocity Aircraft Sold

And yet all the posters I've seen lately, still reflect the use of some
form of EZ, Long-Eze, etc...

ie. It looks quite a bit different than a Velocity...

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:30:30 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
> wrote:

> The problem is they seem to have bought a perfectly good kit company.
>
> http://kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/2008/04/rocket-racing-league-announces-schedule.html
>
> Rocket Racing League Announces Schedule, Velocity Aircraft Sold
[....]
>
> No doubt to ensure an adequate supply of airframes, RRL's subsidiary,
> Rocket Racing Composite Corporation, has purchased Velocity Aircraft. It
> is expected that Velocity will continue selling and servicing the
> Velocity as an Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft.

One has to wonder why having an "adequate supply of airframes" was in doubt.
Assuming RRL was already paying for all the racer development costs, it seems
strange that they felt they had to buy the company itself.

The only obvious answer is that Velocity had be ready to go out of business, and
the only way RRL could protect its source of airframes was to buy the company.

I took a look at my set of Aircraft Registration databases. Here's the change
in the number of Velocities registered per year since 2001:

Year Net Increase
---- --
2001 29
2002 18
2003 22
2004 11
2005 9
2006 10
2007 7

Note that this is the *net* increase in the number of aircraft registered as
Velocities...and that in most cases, this reflected a kit that had probably been
purchased three or more years earlier. (Note that the actual number of completed
aircraft per year is generally higher...for instance, I show 12 Velocities with
new airworthiness certificates in 2007).

Obviously, Velocity sales had peaked in the late '90s. Not too farfetched to
think that the owners were considering shutting the line down. Contrast that to
the RV juggernaut:

Year Net Increase
---- --
2001 308
2002 328
2003 373
2004 424
2005 360
2006 429
2007 445

Ron Wanttaja

[Darrel Toepfer]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

> Obviously, Velocity sales had peaked in the late '90s. Not too
> farfetched to think that the owners were considering shutting the line
> down.

They were doing a factory "Quick Build" option, but it wasn't kneaux "2
Weeks 2 Taxi" thingie either...

I like the gull wing doors so much better than the old lift the roof, by
climbing in over the backend method they originally had...

[John Ousterhout[_2_]]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> > wrote:

>> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
>> in a Rocket Race.


> Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
> Reno races at Oshkosh? Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
> pre-programmed?
>
> According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
> computer-generated course. Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
> the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
> Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
> bets.


I guess I just assumed that everyone would agree with me that an
exhibition is not a race. But for those in doubt, I meant a real Rocket
Racing League event with multiple rockets competing.

- Filbert

[Steve Foley]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...

**************************************
>
> Does anyone think Moller has some mony in this?

No, but I bet he could sue for copyright infringement.

[Rich Ahrens[_2_]]

on 4/20/2008 3:04 PM Ron Wanttaja said the following:
> In my opinion, Zoom doesn't refer specifically to Sun N Fun for the same reason
> he only refers to Oysterhouse as "That nut from Oregon."

A rare slip into journalistic accuracy??? :-)

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, John Ousterhout
says...
>
>Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
>> > wrote:
>
>>> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
>>> in a Rocket Race.
>
>
>> Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
>> Reno races at Oshkosh? Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
>> pre-programmed?
>>
>> According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
>> computer-generated course. Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
>>the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
>> Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
>> bets.
>
>
>I guess I just assumed that everyone would agree with me that an
>exhibition is not a race. But for those in doubt, I meant a real Rocket
>Racing League event with multiple rockets competing.


Your right a exhibition is not a race . I think a better race would be to take
bets and see if the new fat zoomy can fit in the cockpit .Last I saw him he was
quite pudgy :-)

Chuck (20 # less )S RAH-14/1 ret

[DABEAR]

<snipped> Three more exhibition races will be held at
Reno (September 10-14), at the X-Prize Cup (Las Cruces, NM, date
TBA),
and at Aviation Nation, Nellis Air Force Base (November 8-9).

They'd better use caution at Reno. Frankly, they should cancel. Much
too turbulence there with the Sierra Wave activity going on. Then
there's the Dust Devils (Whirlwind, Zephyr). Tore one of the smaller
IF1s apart when the aircraft inadvertantly flew through one; pilot
killed. That aircraft was composite, roughly 1/2 the size of a
Velocity.

Brent Hisey had an Emergency in his North American P-51D Miss America,
"Race 11," and the winds blew him away from the runway and into the
sage at the last moment. Aircraft should have been totalled but Hisey
rebuilt it anyway. He walked away reportedly covered in hyrdraulic
fluid.

Imagine what that Sierra Wave turbulence can do to a short-wing
"glider" like the RRL Velocity. Rocket power is reportedly only going
to be used in the ascent phase, so how is it "Rocket Racing" when
power is "off" during the competition phase. Speed in the climb only
300 mph...I'll take the 500 mph range Unlimiteds any day.

Three men killed at Reno in 2007, then a fourth after the races. That
event not too big on safety and the (mis-) management is the reason
why. A number of pilots retired after last year's event and either
sold their racers or put them on the selling block, particularly after
the accidents. If the weather at Reno isn't good, you could see the
entire cancellation of the event, which could irk those paying for the
tickets.

I saw one of the Velocity prototypes at Mojave about two weeks ago.
Appeared to feature a single seat with enough room even for a large
man. Even Baby Huey (Zoom) could fit in that thing. (Did not observe
a seat over on the "co-pilot's side. The way they're advertising the
test pilot versions, these look like single seat racers.)

As a side note to Mojave, the Rotary Rocket's move to San Diego was
cancelled and it will now be on display at Mojave Spaceport next to
BAE Systems, about a block away from Flight Ops. They set up a nice
park and walkway there, so hopefully more displays will be added. The
F-4 Phantom that was on display in front of Flight Ops is
gone...perhaps in a hangar being restored? The Convair 990 Galileo
II, from NASA, is now on gate guard at the front of the airport. Has
been for a few years now. The number of airliners parked there
starting to dwindle.

[Dan[_2_]]

John Ousterhout wrote:
> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>>
>> I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers
>> will be a
>> photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic
>> of him in
>> the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>>
>> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>>
>> "I'll believe it when I see it "
>
>
> I believe that the chance of Captain Zoom ever racing a rocket is less
> than the chance of me ever flying that F-104.
>
> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
> in a Rocket Race.
>
> - Filbert


Make sure you obtain verifiable witnesses. I'm sure ole zoom already
has a press release ready for his "I test fly a rocket racer" report.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_2_]]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:07 -0700, John Ousterhout
> > wrote:
>
>> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>>> I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers will be a
>>> photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic of him in
>>> the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>> I believe that the chance of Captain Zoom ever racing a rocket is less
>> than the chance of me ever flying that F-104.
>>
>> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
>> in a Rocket Race.
>
> Better define "Race," Filbert...two planes chasing each other, like the fake
> Reno races at Oshkosh? Or an actual competition where the winners aren't
> pre-programmed?
>
> According to Wikipedia, the race course is at 1,500 feet, following a
> computer-generated course. Funny thing is, five minutes worth of clicking on
> the RRL site didn't lead to a description that even gave THAT much information.
> Until you find out what RRL's definition of a "race" is, I wouldn't place any
> bets.
>
> Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
>
> http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwaybig.jpg
>
> Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
> the runway edge. We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)
>
> Each race (again, according to Wikipedia) is supposed to last 90 minutes, with
> the planes carrying four minutes of fuel. World record for a rocket pit stop is
> something like three hours. Even if they get that down to 15 minutes (including
> the time to tow the plane to the fuel station and back to the runway), that's
> STILL a lot of gliding time.
>
> Ron Wanttaja
>

It seems to me using solid fuel rocket engines would make more sense
for racing. Each airplane would have two engines, one high impulse for
take off and the other a long duration burn for the race. It seems to me
rapid engine changes would be possible.

I have always thought a replica Me163 with a solid fuel engine would
be a rather nice air show draw.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_2_]]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
<snip>
> Did find this picture on the RRL site, which is a real howler:
>
> http://www.rocketracingleague.com/gallery/venue_concepts/images/runwaybig.jpg
>
> Note how the runway is just two wingspans wide, and the grandstands are RIGHT at
> the runway edge. We're finally seeing the results of Campbell's input. :-)
>

It could be worse, they could have the refueling pits next to the
grandstand. So you lose a few spectators every so often when the pit
goes boom, but that would only add to the excitement.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[John Ousterhout[_2_]]

Dan wrote:
>
> It could be worse, they could have the refueling pits next to the
> grandstand. So you lose a few spectators every so often when the pit
> goes boom, but that would only add to the excitement.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

No, No! Not next to the spectators...

Next to the press!

- O Negative

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Dan says...
>
>John Ousterhout wrote:
>> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd bet a nickle the closest he gets to flying one of those racers
>>> will be a
>>> photo op with him in the cockpit .That way he can get rid of the pic
>>> of him in
>>> the engineless F-104 and replace it with something newer :-)
>>>
>>> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>>>
>>> "I'll believe it when I see it "
>>
>>
>> I believe that the chance of Captain Zoom ever racing a rocket is less
>> than the chance of me ever flying that F-104.
>>
>> But I'll issue a public apology to Jim Campbell if he ever acts as PIC
>> in a Rocket Race.
>>
>> - Filbert
>
>
> Make sure you obtain verifiable witnesses. I'm sure ole zoom already
>has a press release ready for his "I test fly a rocket racer" report.


I bet he'll be the first to loop roll and spin one LOL!! I'm sure jaun will
verify it for zoomy he believes everything zoomy says.

Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:

>
>
> I bet he'll be the first to loop roll and spin one LOL!! I'm sure jaun will
> verify it for zoomy he believes everything zoomy says.
>
> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>

It will be hard for jaun to verify since he is usually head down on
Zoom's cock....I mean in zoom's cockpit.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:

> It seems to me using solid fuel rocket engines would make more sense
> for racing. Each airplane would have two engines, one high impulse for
> take off and the other a long duration burn for the race. It seems to me
> rapid engine changes would be possible.

It's an interesting idea, but has some technical drawbacks.

A liquid rocket motor, like they're using now, gets fuel just like a recip:
Fuel and oxidizer are stored in tanks and fed to the engine via pipes. It means
that you can install the motor itself in the best location and put the fuel
tanks on the CG so that the aircraft's balance doesn't change during.

However, a solid rocket is a single, self-contained unit. If you put (for
example) a Star 17A solid rocket where the Velocity's engine normally goes,
there'll be ~280 pounds in the engine compartment when the motor lights off, but
only ~30 pounds left when the motor burns out 20 seconds later. This is the
equivalent of having a recip engine completely depart the airframe in flight.

It's not insurmoutable...you could put a small water tank for ballast way up
front and drain it at the required rate. If you could get five times the moment
arm (which is probably pushing it) you'd only need a six gallon tank. But with
both a boost and a sustainer engine, you'd have to have a larger tank with
variable drain rates. And if the water drain system fails, the plane will
shortly become uncontrollable...no way to shut down a solid rocket short of
blowing it up.

If your solid rocket motor were slim and long, you could install it so that half
the casing was forward of the CG. But that does push it into the cabin.

Due to the heat, I doubt a composite Velocity airframe could stand the motor
near the actual CG. The only remaining solution would put twin engines on the
wings. You'd have to beef up the wing structure to handle it. You'll also need
to ensure the aircraft has enough rudder authority to handle it when one motor
burns out a little earlier than the other.

It would probably be a lot easier to mount a second liquid-fueled sustainer
motor in the current vehicles. In fact, a better solution would be to install
multiple small motors instead of the single large one they're doing now. This
would give the pilots a "throttle" that would be a significant tactical factor
in the event of an actual race.

> I have always thought a replica Me163 with a solid fuel engine would
> be a rather nice air show draw.

The guys up in Everett manufacturing the Me-262s are building an ME-163. No plan
to fly it, though. Pity....

Ron Wanttaja