hard wax application

[Tuno]

I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)

I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?

~ted/2NO

[John Smith]

Tuno wrote:

> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to

The short answer: If you have to ask, don't do it! Those machines can do
a *lot* of damage in the hands of the unskilled.

[user]

Start slow. Take your time. And stay away from edges. Do them by hand using
paste and an orbital polisher.

By the way, even though it's called "hard wax," you are not waxing. You are
applying polish to produce a mirror glaze. You will need a means of holding
the bar on end to apply the polish to the buffing pad. As on the sailplane,
go slow. Impatience will prove all the nay sayers right! As with any power
tool, there is a potential for harm, so think through what you're doing
first. If the cynics make you uncertain, just remember that M&H pays Harris
Hill juniors (high schoolers) to polish gliders with the same equipment.

Wear a mask and protect your eyes. The abrasive gets everywhere... in very
fine particles. Choose a small section of the sailplane to work to
completion so you can see how much effort is needed. Vertical fin (not the
rudder) is a good place to learn to handle the polishing wheel. I think
you'll be surprised (and very pleased) with the results. I find it handy to
have 800/1000/1500 grit sand paper at hand to work areas that are especially
rough. Wet sand, rinse, and dry before polishing.

You may want to seal your handiwork afterwards. I recommend Mother's natural
carnuba (no silicone). You don't need to slather... just a little will do
the trick.


"Tuno" > wrote in message
...
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 20, 8:43*am, Tuno > wrote:
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO

I put my block of hard wax, and the dealer supplied buffing wheel, in
a closet in the garage and used Wx block.

Andy

[[email protected]]

It is very important to seal the surface of your fiberglass glider.
Moisture does evil things to gelcoat.

Many years ago, we contacted Mother's Gold, one of the major suppliers
of automobile paste wax. It was advertised as 100% pure carnuba wax.
We bought a can. The product was very soft so it could be applied by
hand. We asked what is in their product?

Yes, the wax is pure carnuba, but there were 40% undesirable things to
make it soft. I explained what are needs are for fiberglass gliders.

Some years later, they called me to announce a new product. It is
called Mother's Gold, "Natural Formula." It has a small amount of non-
harmful softener (it is still pretty hard) but can easily be applied
by hand or machine.

We sell a lot of it to glider pilots, and as with all gliderports, we
appreciate your support.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
Ridge Soaring Gliderport
http://www.eglider.org
814-355-2483

[Eric Greenwell]

Tuno wrote:
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?

Isn't this a brand new glider? My understanding is it should have plenty
of wax on it for now. Maybe check with the dealer or the factory first.

I assume you are after gel coat protection, and not a shiny glider,
since it's already very shiny. Considering the problems an improperly
used polisher can cause (damaged control surfaces, overheated skin,
etc), I suggest you find someone that knows how to do it and have them
give you a lesson, like Robert Mudd, or fly JJ out for day, learn lots,
then send him off in the morning. Hey, maybe he could give a class on
polishing and more, charge $50/head for the day, and go home smiling
with a few hundred dollars in his pocket.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

On Apr 20, 8:43�am, Tuno > wrote:
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO

You need a special buffing wheel and a lot of patience. I started on
a Pegasus wing and about half way through I figured there had to be an
easier way. I tried 3M Finesse-It II and was much happier with the
application and finish. Everything that's been said is right on but
I'll add that the hard bar stuff is abrassive and designed for
finishes that are in rough shape. Since it's a cutting material you
would not want to apply it to a new glider's gel coat.

Mike

[Tuno]

Mike,

Finesse-It II is a polishing material. It removes surface to make it
smoother. I used it on my V2C to remove lime deposits. It's great
stuff.

Hard wax has some abrassive content but it is primarily a wax, not a
polish -- it fills in tiny holes in the surface, which polishers do
not do. This serves to protect the gelcoat from moisture, which is my
primary concern, not making it smoother. I'm trying to optimize my
speed 5 and 10 years from now, not go faster tomorrow.

I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that some people replying to my OP
suggest that power tools might harm my glider. Really?! Next time I'm
at the dentist, I'm going to tell him to crank that sucker by hand!

An open question is whether my glider received an application of hard
wax at the factory before they sent it out the door. (My wife's Toyota
did not.) If so, I'm not going to worry about this until the off
season. If not, I want to do what is prudent and appropriate to
protect my investment.

A8: thank you for the e-mail -- good stuff!

2NO

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Apr 20, 10:43*am, Tuno > wrote:
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO

I am sort of surprized that nobody else has said this, but I think
3000 RPM is WAY too fast. Try to keep it to 1200 or less. And is
what you got one of those random orbit things (junk, in my opinion) or
a pure rotating buffing wheel?

I used 3M stuff (Super Duty Rubbing Compound, followed by Finese-it
II) on a rather oxidized 18 meter ship. It had been re-finished back
in 1989 with Prestec, and put in the trailer until I bought it in
2006. It was stored near Minden. After the 3M stuff to get it shiny
again, I used Wx Seal and Wx Block. The 3M stuff and the first Wx
product was applied with my power buffer, the second Wx by hand and
everything was hand wiped after with clean white towels. Each side of
each wing took me about one hour on each product with the buffer or
hand application, and about an hour with the towels hand cleaning and
buffing afterwords. In my opinion, the wings on that 39 year old BS1
looked as good an anything new coming out of the factories. OK, they
are thick and wide compared to your 29, and a bunch heavier, but I
think they look fantastic!

Each process had its own buffing pad, and its own towels for applying
and buffing. I still have to do the fuselage.

I would agree with Andy, and get to work applying Wx Seal and Wx
Block. And, if I can ever get around to it, I have a bunch of other
planes I need to get around to polishing and sealing.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS

[ZZ]

Tuno wrote:
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO


Ted:

I like Harly Wax. It is a moderately hard carnuba in a can. Application
by hand is moderately easy. It seems to have little if any solvents.
Twice a year does the trick. Wax it with sealing tape in place or they
won't stick after waxing. I have found it only on the internet at
www.harlywax.com. His service is excellent.

Paul
ZZ

[John Smith]

Tuno wrote:

> I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that some people replying to my OP
> suggest that power tools might harm my glider. Really?! Next time I'm
> at the dentist, I'm going to tell him to crank that sucker by hand!

Difference is, your dentist most probably has had several years of
serious training.

This hard wax thing *is* tricky. It must get warm to smoothly fill those
tiny holes. But get a tad too warm, and you destroy the wing. It *has*
happened. Stay two seconds too long at one place and the surface is
brown and you'll never know how much the structure has weakened. Let
that machine get out of control for half a second and you'll have
wonderful waves in the surface. You can do a lot of harm to a previously
perfect wing. No problem for the pro, but since you had to ask, chances
are your not a pro.

So I repeat my first answer: If you have to ask, don't do it. At least
don't do it without the help and supervision of a skilled person. Of
course, it's your glider and you can do what you want.

[user]

Sharpen up your german and follow this link. You'll learn more about
maintaining your glider's finish than you're getting here.

http://www.rall-guitars.de/andreashp/git_tools/poliermaschine/git_tools_poliermaschine_eng.html

Look around the website for anything on polishing. Though the menus are in
english (and some of the pages), patience and Babelfish will get you the
info lacking in this thread.

Think of your hard bar "wax" as finishing off the swirls left by 1200 wet
sanding. Yes, it reduces and fills in the "gaps" while polishing, but it
doesn't seal, so be sure to apply wax afterwards if you want to preserve the
finish. I suspect the reason so many have objections to the hard wax and
buffing wheel is based on lack of knowledge, trying to use it where cleaning
and sanding would be natural precursors to polishing and sealing.

Again, the results are exceptional. If you use the right tools for the
appropriate steps in the process, you'll wind up with a brilliant finish
that outshines anything from a bottle... and find that each step is really
pretty simple and largely foolproof. There's no mystery in this stuff, save
that it's tough to find valid information from a single, reliable source.

"Tuno" > wrote in message
...
> I've never used hard wax before, but since the factory recommends it
> on the gelcoat, I'm going to give it a try. I just have no clue how to
> go about it. (My Google search results are great -- for hair removal!)
>
> I have a Makita 0-3000rpm variable speed polisher, a brick of hard
> wax, and a mandrel and other accessories I got from the dealer. Is
> there a technique writeup on the web somewhere?
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Tony Verhulst]

> Hard wax has some abrassive content but it is primarily a wax, not a
> polish -- it fills in tiny holes in the surface, which polishers do
> not do.


This is what Heinz at M&H told me. In addition, the heat generated by
the process also softens the gelcoat which further helps to seal fine
cracks. You need a powerful angle buffer to generate this kind of heat,
as Ted clearly understands. Something that almost blows your circuit
breaker will suffice :-) - the US$40 polishers at Sears will not. Heinz
also repairs a few ships a year where a bit too much heat was generated
- especially on the thin control surfaces. It's a process that needs to
be learned and I'm still working on it - slowly

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

[[email protected]]

I've never used hard wax but it sure sounds like a pain in the rear.
3M products are all I have used and if all your after is a final gloss
"Finesse It" works great and is easy to use. As previously warned a
buffer can do a lot of damage but I think if the person is smart
enough to learn how to fly and understands power hand tools they could
easily master it.

[[email protected]]

Tuno, you are getting good advice.

Machine "hardwaxing" is a skill and teaching yourself to do this as
PIC the first time would be unwise for most mortals. If you are going
the self-taught method, maybeyou could sell tickets to watch.

The thin fiberglass/carbon skins of modern ships are especially
sensitive to excess heat and pressure and a control surface can be
ripped in half instantly if you get the wrong edge of the buffer in
the wrong place. A friend working in a glider factory observed his 55
kg girlfriend get yanked completely over a wing when she caught the
buffer on the leading edge. If you want to do this, the Makita
variable spped buffer is the "gold standard" tool.

As was mentioned previously, hardwaxing accomplishes a couple of
things. First, it is mildly abrasive and thus removes fine scratches
from the surface. Secondly, the heat of the buffer opens the porous
structure of the gelcoat and the gets the wax down into the coating,
"moisturizing" it. I know of a glider that was almost impossible to
repair as the gelcoat was saturated with wax from repeated hardwaxing
and nothing would stick to it. It is noteworthy that this ship's
finish was nearly perfect even though this make and model is notorious
for finish crazing.

Negative issues associated with hardwaxing: 1) It will NOT protect
the ship from UV. The ship mentioned above was very yellow despite
the hardwaxing 2) It does remove material. 3) If done excessively
and you soak the finish with wax, the gelcoat can be very difficult to
repair.

What protective wax to use is problematic. To my knowledge no
independent research has been conducted and we thus rely on anectotal
evidence and the manufactuer's claims. I currently favor and use the
WX Block / Seal as the "topcoat" after final buffing of the surface.
New Finish apparently does a good job as well. A Grob that was semi-
annually coated (by hand) with this product sat out in the Tehachapi
sun and weather 24/7 for a decade and looked great. [Rat On] Of
course, it started with good gelcoat as opposed to the swill that some
manufacturers pass off as a surface coating on $100K toys [Rant Off].
100% carnuba seals the surface and does not interfere with repairs but
I do not beleive it offers UV protection.

Finally, I believe an optimal system would be: Buffing with
Finessette to get a good surface, hardwax to get wax into the gelcoat,
and WX Block for UV protection.

As a side note, several studies, notably Dick Johnson, show that,
while they are more difficult to keep clean, a 600 or 800 grit finish
yields performance benefits and the mirror-like 1000+ grit finishes
currently in vogue measurably degrade performance. I finish sand my
own gliders to 800 grit and everyone else's to 1200. :)

[[email protected]]

Hard wax application is a lot easier than some make it out to be. John
Murray gave me a little demonstration, but it's pretty much a common
sense thing anyway. Just keep moving and make sure the rotation is
correct when you get near trailing edges and control surfaces. It
works beautifully for me. I'm not scared of it, but I do have some
respect for the danger it presents near trailing edges. Just take your
time and think before applying.

[Tuno]

Gary,

You are right, "Finesse It II" is great stuff (as are most 3M
products) and I use it too, but my inquiry is about *hard wax*
application, not polishing. Those are two different things. My finish
is already smooth and shiny -- but now I want to protect it from
moisture, using the factory's recommendations (ergo, hard wax).

I had a reply by e-mail saying that my glider received a hard wax
application at the factory. I'm trying to verify this. If so, I'm not
going to worry about it this year. I'll hard wax the trailer instead!

2NO

[[email protected]]

> I tried 3M Finesse-It II and was much happier with the
> application and finish. *
> Mike

Is the Finesse-it ll applied with the variable speed polisher like it
would be with the hard bar wax?

Craig

[user]

Yeah, if I was charging $1K+ to hard wax a glider, I'd be telling you about
all the damage I've seen done by clueless owners... The maker of the hard
wax bar also offers a soft paste for orbital polisher application. Use it on
the controls if you fear your thumbs.

Pulled this recently from a FAQ hosted by a well-known maker of paint
protection products...

"Some waxes do contain UV-protection agents, but the amount of protection
that a microscopically thin layer of wax can provide is limited

The primary goal of a wax is to protect the top layers of paint that contain
UV-protection agents from the paint manufacture. If you wash and wax your
car regularly, your paint will be protected and you should suffer no major
UV damage over the normal course of the life of the car.

Don't be fooled by some companies that lead you to believe that it is the UV
protection in a wax that protects your car's finish from fading and failure,
this is dishonest and simply not true. Taking care of the paint you
presently have will go further to protect your finish than relying on
protection supplied by a liquid you pour out of a bottle, or a wax you scoop
out of a can. UV protection in a car wax formula is only an extra-dose of
preventative maintenance, not the end-all, cure-all that some companies
would lead you to believe.

UV protection for paint is much different from UV blocking ingredients for
human skin. The two formulas are nothing alike and work in drastically
different ways. There is no correlation between the ratings applied to the
different levels of sun blocking protection for products intended for use on
human skin and the ingredients available for use in an automotive wax
formula. Sad to say, much of what you see advertised about the protective
qualities of most car care products on the market today is simply
over-exaggerated hype used to separate you from your hard earned dollars."



"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>> Hard wax has some abrassive content but it is primarily a wax, not a
>> polish -- it fills in tiny holes in the surface, which polishers do
>> not do.
>
>
> This is what Heinz at M&H told me. In addition, the heat generated by the
> process also softens the gelcoat which further helps to seal fine cracks.
> You need a powerful angle buffer to generate this kind of heat, as Ted
> clearly understands. Something that almost blows your circuit breaker will
> suffice :-) - the US$40 polishers at Sears will not. Heinz also repairs a
> few ships a year where a bit too much heat was generated - especially on
> the thin control surfaces. It's a process that needs to be learned and I'm
> still working on it - slowly
>
> Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

[Tony Verhulst]

user wrote:
> Yeah, if I was charging $1K+ to hard wax a glider, I'd be telling you about
> all the damage I've seen done by clueless owners.

Maybe - but then he also showed me how to use the buffer.

Tony

[[email protected]]

On Apr 21, 5:14*pm, wrote:
> > I tried 3M Finesse-It II and was much happier with the
> > application and finish. *
> > Mike
>
> Is the Finesse-it ll applied with the variable speed polisher like it
> would be with the hard bar wax?
>
> Craig

Variable or fixed speed buffer.