Harley motor in a homebuilt?

[David Hill]

I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
come up with is a Harley-Davidson.

Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
(direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).

Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>

--
David Hill
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[Marvin Barnard]

Can't remember who, but I recall seeing a Harley re-drive article in
"Experimenter" I think. .... a few years ago.

[cj]

"David Hill" wrote

> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to
find
> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I
have
> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
> Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400
rpm
> (direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
> Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this?
I'm
> looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
> opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>
>
> --
> David Hill
> Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

Hello,

About six months ago Larry Smith posted this link:

http://www.hog-air.com.

It is bigger than what you are talking about, and it doesn't look like
it has flown yet, but the motor is bolted onto an airframe:

http://www.hog-air.com/Motor%20running.WMV

They're talking about selling completed Light Sport Aircraft for
$52,000.

- cj

[Continental Bill]

David Hill > wrote in message >...
> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
> Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
> (direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
> Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
> looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
> opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>

Based on experience and opinion; Do you know why Harley riders wave to
each other as they pass on the hi-way? Because they never know when
they're going to have to borrow parts from each other so they want to
stay on the good side of every Harley rider they meet. budah bump.

I would say trusting your life to a Harley engine is worse judgement
than trusting your life to a Rotax engine.

Bill
You're nothing until you've blasted a can of Delmonte peas with a
Walther P-38... or something like that.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

David Hill > wrote in message >...
> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
> Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
> (direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
> Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
> looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
> opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>

Second hand caveat: This topic has been beaten to death, buried,
resurrected and beaten to death several more times on the gyro forum.
As I recall, the problem is heat. Running at the rpm we need to spin a
prop is too much for a motorcycle engine. After initial acceleration,
they basically loaf down the road. The sustained revs will fry them.
This what I recall being posted by people who seemed to know what they
were talking about. Craig Wall had some very spirited and seemingly
logical and convincing posts as to why they won't work. But then
again, someone may prove them wrong and get one to successfully
perform. I don't believe anyone has a good handle on it yet, with
proven reliability over a substantial amount of hours.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[Corrie]

> Based on experience and opinion; Do you know why Harley riders wave to
> each other as they pass on the hi-way? Because they never know when
> they're going to have to borrow parts from each other so they want to
> stay on the good side of every Harley rider they meet. budah bump.

Difference between a biker and a Viking? Vikings wear helmets. budum
ching. Ever read, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?" Still
and all, it could be worse. He could be wanting to install a Triumph
engine, or worse, a *shudder* Lucas electrical system. (Why doesn't
Triumph built televisions? Because they haven't figured out a way to
make them leak oil.)

[Eric Miller]

"David Hill" > wrote
> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.

Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)

And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?

Eric

[Del Rawlins]

On 19 Sep 2003 06:09 PM, Corrie posted the following:

> and all, it could be worse. He could be wanting to install a Triumph
> engine, or worse, a *shudder* Lucas electrical system. (Why doesn't
> Triumph built televisions? Because they haven't figured out a way to
> make them leak oil.)

As opposed to a Harley???

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[[email protected]]

Unless you've already got one, don't mind the craft shaking
itself apart from the inherent imbalance, and can live with the cylinders
frying themselves, think something other than a harley engine. Air cooled
engines work poorly in automobiles, less poorly in motorcycles, and
moderately poorly in airplanes. The inherent problem is that making power
makes *lots* of heat, and in order to remove it with an air-cooled engine
you need a large temperature gradient. This requires CHTs on the order of
400 degrees, extra-special valve construction and materials, cylinder
barrel choke, higher octane requirements, etc, etc. If one's going to go
with something that isn't certified, at least use the best technology
available and use liquid cooling. Cooler, more efficient, roughly the
same weight, less cooling drag, etc, etc. I'm partial to the EA-81 Subaru
engine, but of course I use the same one in my daily driver car... :)

-Cory

Ken Sandyeggo > wrote:
: Second hand caveat: This topic has been beaten to death, buried,
: resurrected and beaten to death several more times on the gyro forum.
: As I recall, the problem is heat. Running at the rpm we need to spin a
: prop is too much for a motorcycle engine. After initial acceleration,
: they basically loaf down the road. The sustained revs will fry them.
: This what I recall being posted by people who seemed to know what they
: were talking about. Craig Wall had some very spirited and seemingly
: logical and convincing posts as to why they won't work. But then
: again, someone may prove them wrong and get one to successfully
: perform. I don't believe anyone has a good handle on it yet, with
: proven reliability over a substantial amount of hours.

: Ken J. - SDCAUSA

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Ralph DuBose]

"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...
> "David Hill" > wrote
> > I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> > Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
> > a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
> > come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)
>
> And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
> for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?
>
> Eric

In the world of high performance hovercraft, motorcycle engines
have been looked at for years. The only situations where they have
been made to work is where they are installed complete with gearbox
and rigged with a complex chain to belt PSRU. Also, they need to be in
an application where full power is rarely needed. After starring at
these harsh realities, most people choose between 2 stroke power or
Kohler reliability. Or for larger craft, a junkyard 4 cylinder car
engine.

[JR]

There was a newer Harley engine spinning a prop on a stand down at Sun'n'fun
this year. Can't remember the guys name. However with the newer Evos and
there twin balanced setup it seemed very promising and ran very smooth. Once
again I emphazise it was a newer Evo twin cam 88 motor.
John

[Daniel]

David Hill wrote ...
> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.

Why not a current production Indian? Can't say that I know anything
about motorsickles, but I noticed one of the new ones a couple weeks
ago & wondered.

> ... I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
> (direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).

Better check your math (PSRU = more torque @ lower rpm, but the HP
stays the same).

Daniel

[Rich S.]

"Daniel" > wrote in message
om...
> Better check your math (PSRU = more torque @ lower rpm, but the HP
> stays the same).

Daniel...........

Better check yours. He's talking about engine rpm. ;o)

Rich S.

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On 20 Sep 2003 17:48:25 -0700, (Daniel)
wrote:

>David Hill wrote ...
>> I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>> Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>> a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>> come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
>Why not a current production Indian? Can't say that I know anything
>about motorsickles, but I noticed one of the new ones a couple weeks
>ago & wondered.
>
>> ... I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
>> (direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
>Better check your math (PSRU = more torque @ lower rpm, but the HP
>stays the same).
>
>Daniel
No, David was right. Engine torque output being the same, horsepower
increases proportional to speed. Since torque droops with RPM, the
difference is not truly linear - but running a PSRU ALLOWS the engine
to produce more horsepower with the same prop RPM.If it did not, there
would be no reason for the complexity of a PSRU.

[Corrie]

"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...

> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)

You could pretend it was a P&W R-2800.... ;->

[Old Sarge]

To All: To make the man happy, Indian motorcycle is back in business. He
should look them up, for real authenticity. :-)

[Daniel]

clare @ snyder.on .ca wrote ...

> No, David was right. ...

He sure was. I misread what he meant. Engine RPM vs prop RPM. The error was mine.

Daniel

[David Hill]

Old Sarge wrote:
> To All: To make the man happy, Indian motorcycle is back in business. He
> should look them up, for real authenticity. :-)
>

Thanks, Sarge, but you missed the main point. It's a replica, and I'm
looking for something that at least resembles the old Indian Chief. The
New Indian is the first place I looked, they don't resemble the old
Indian any more than the Harley, and they cost a lot more.

David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org

[David Hill]

cj wrote:
<snip>
> Hello,
>
> About six months ago Larry Smith posted this link:
>
> http://www.hog-air.com.
>
> It is bigger than what you are talking about, and it doesn't look like
> it has flown yet, but the motor is bolted onto an airframe:
>
> http://www.hog-air.com/Motor%20running.WMV
>
> They're talking about selling completed Light Sport Aircraft for
> $52,000.
>
> - cj

You know, I saw this website a while back. At the time, I couldn't get
past the first page, and I thought it was some kind of joke. Now I see
they are serious. Doesn't look exactly like what I want, but it will be
worth talking to them.

thanks,
--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[David Hill]

Ken Sandyeggo wrote:
> David Hill > wrote in message >...
>
>>I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>>Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>>a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>>come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>>
>>Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
>>(direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>>
>>Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
>>looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
>>opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>
>
>
> Second hand caveat: This topic has been beaten to death, buried,
> resurrected and beaten to death several more times on the gyro forum.
> As I recall, the problem is heat. Running at the rpm we need to spin a
> prop is too much for a motorcycle engine. After initial acceleration,
> they basically loaf down the road. The sustained revs will fry them.
> This what I recall being posted by people who seemed to know what they
> were talking about. Craig Wall had some very spirited and seemingly
> logical and convincing posts as to why they won't work. But then
> again, someone may prove them wrong and get one to successfully
> perform. I don't believe anyone has a good handle on it yet, with
> proven reliability over a substantial amount of hours.
>
> Ken J. - SDCAUSA

I seem to recall all the same posts. Which is why I never seriously
considered it, until I got involved with this replica project. The
original plane first flew on 17 hp with the Indian Chief motor, then was
changed to a 28 hp Lawrance A-3 (talk about vibration!). Even if all I
get out the Harley is 40 hp, I'll be doing okay.

thanks,
--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[David Hill]

wrote:
> Unless you've already got one, don't mind the craft shaking
> itself apart from the inherent imbalance, and can live with the cylinders
> frying themselves, think something other than a harley engine. Air cooled
> engines work poorly in automobiles, less poorly in motorcycles, and
> moderately poorly in airplanes. The inherent problem is that making power
> makes *lots* of heat, and in order to remove it with an air-cooled engine
> you need a large temperature gradient. This requires CHTs on the order of
> 400 degrees, extra-special valve construction and materials, cylinder
> barrel choke, higher octane requirements, etc, etc. If one's going to go
> with something that isn't certified, at least use the best technology
> available and use liquid cooling. Cooler, more efficient, roughly the
> same weight, less cooling drag, etc, etc. I'm partial to the EA-81 Subaru
> engine, but of course I use the same one in my daily driver car... :)
>
> -Cory

Thanks, Cory, but the point is it's a replica, and I'm trying to make it
look as much like the original as possible. I don't expect to be doing
long cross country trips in it, unless it's a hundred miles at a time. :-)

--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[David Hill]

Eric Miller wrote:
> "David Hill" > wrote
>
>>I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>>Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>>a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>>come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
>
> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)
>
> And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
> for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?
>
> Eric
>
>

Actually, I'd LOVE for my airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..."!
That's about the only think I like about a Harley. :-)

Yes, the 45 degree configuration is lousy regarding vibration (although
Honda has managed to smooth it out, just add 40 lbs or so of
counterweights). However, it's not as bad as the second engine that was
used in the original plane, the 28 hp Lawrance A-3 -- a two cylinder
opposed with a single crank throw, and no counterbalancing.

The buyer of the plane in 1926 commented on the excessive vibration in a
letter he write in the '80s. I know that in the late '20s someone came
up with a two throw crank conversion for these engines, but I only know
of one of these engines still running. And I'd rather fly behind a new
Harley engine than an 87 year old engine.

Interesting note on the Lawrance A-3 -- it does not have engine mounting
lugs. It has a grooved area around the base of each cylinder where you
*strap* the engine to the airplane. <yikes!>

--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[Big John]

David

Many years ago, someone told me that motorcycle engines had a lot of
vibration and for that reason were not really reliable for use in a
very light aircraft that their horsepower would pull. Vibrations
caused failures in the structure????

One data point FYI.

Big John


On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:06:41 GMT, David Hill
> wrote:

>I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
>Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
>(direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
>Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
>looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
>opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>

[Big John]

Indian just went belly up re article in todays paper. Stated in 1902
it said.

Big John


On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:06:41 GMT, David Hill
> wrote:

>I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>
>Looks like with an 80 cid Evolution engine I can get ~40 hp at ~3400 rpm
>(direct drive) or ~60 hp at ~4500 rpm (PSRU setup).
>
>Has anyone here tried this? Or know of anyone who has done this? I'm
>looking for caveats, tips, and techniques. Based on experience, not
>opinion. Oh, sorry, I forgot where I was. <grin>

[Jesper Rex]

I live in Nuuk, which is the Inuit name for Godthaab, the largest city
in Greenland.

Happy flying
Jesper Rex
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:05:05 -0500, Big John >
wrote:

>Jasper
>
>Where in Greenland?
>
>Big John
>
>
>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:08:15 -0200, Jesper Rex >
>wrote:
>
>>This guy is building a Replica Airplane, that was originally powered
>>by a V-Twin. I guess that means, that to be a proper Replica he NEEDS
>>a V-Twin engine to power it, not anything else, no matter how much
>>better it is.
>>
>>I don't know anything about building airplanes, but I did a quick
>>search on the net to see which Airplanes I could find that was Indian
>>Powered, and it looks like the Original had around 20HP, so I guess
>>that he would not need the full performance of the Harley Engine.
>>
>>Just my 5c.
>>
>>Happy flying from Greenland
>>Jesper Rex
>>
>>On 20 Sep 2003 13:36:19 -0700, (Ralph DuBose) wrote:
>>
>>>"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...
>>>> "David Hill" > wrote
>>>> > I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>>>> > Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>>>> > a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>>>> > come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>>>>
>>>> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)
>>>>
>>>> And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
>>>> for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>
>>> In the world of high performance hovercraft, motorcycle engines
>>>have been looked at for years. The only situations where they have
>>>been made to work is where they are installed complete with gearbox
>>>and rigged with a complex chain to belt PSRU. Also, they need to be in
>>>an application where full power is rarely needed. After starring at
>>>these harsh realities, most people choose between 2 stroke power or
>>>Kohler reliability. Or for larger craft, a junkyard 4 cylinder car
>>>engine.

[Del Rawlins]

On 23 Sep 2003 09:26 AM, David Hill posted the following:

> Interesting note on the Lawrance A-3 -- it does not have engine
> mounting lugs. It has a grooved area around the base of each
> cylinder where you *strap* the engine to the airplane. <yikes!>

That brings up another point, it might be a really good idea to make a
safety cable from the engine to a lug on the fuselage, in case vibration
gets to be too much for the engine mount...

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Big John]

Jasper

How far from 'Sendre Stremfjord'? I was flight leader of a flight of
T-33's and all ejected over 'Son-da-strom' (Sp) Air Base 7 December
1969. All survived and one airplane was later found by a trapper on a
frozen lake where it had landed (crashed) and skidded across the lake
to the shore.

Always wondered if they later ever found the bird with the cargo pod
where I had all my civilian clothes and msc? Had a suit I got in Hong
Kong with English material. One of the best fitting suits I ever had
and material was outstanding.. Of course none of those clothes would
fit me now? Time and fat wait for no man <G>

Wx was 1000 and one in light snow and GCA radio's quit :o(
Everything outside cockpit was white. Ground, sides of the Fiords,
etc.

Found you on the map. Your about 150 SM south of 'Sondie'.


Big John


On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:32:22 -0200, Jesper Rex >
wrote:

>I live in Nuuk, which is the Inuit name for Godthaab, the largest city
>in Greenland.
>
>Happy flying
>Jesper Rex
>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:05:05 -0500, Big John >
>wrote:
>
>>Jasper
>>
>>Where in Greenland?
>>
>>Big John
>>
>>
>>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:08:15 -0200, Jesper Rex >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>This guy is building a Replica Airplane, that was originally powered
>>>by a V-Twin. I guess that means, that to be a proper Replica he NEEDS
>>>a V-Twin engine to power it, not anything else, no matter how much
>>>better it is.
>>>
>>>I don't know anything about building airplanes, but I did a quick
>>>search on the net to see which Airplanes I could find that was Indian
>>>Powered, and it looks like the Original had around 20HP, so I guess
>>>that he would not need the full performance of the Harley Engine.
>>>
>>>Just my 5c.
>>>
>>>Happy flying from Greenland
>>>Jesper Rex
>>>
>>>On 20 Sep 2003 13:36:19 -0700, (Ralph DuBose) wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...
>>>>> "David Hill" > wrote
>>>>> > I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>>>>> > Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>>>>> > a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>>>>> > come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
>>>>> for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> In the world of high performance hovercraft, motorcycle engines
>>>>have been looked at for years. The only situations where they have
>>>>been made to work is where they are installed complete with gearbox
>>>>and rigged with a complex chain to belt PSRU. Also, they need to be in
>>>>an application where full power is rarely needed. After starring at
>>>>these harsh realities, most people choose between 2 stroke power or
>>>>Kohler reliability. Or for larger craft, a junkyard 4 cylinder car
>>>>engine.

[Canuck Bob]

This month's Kit Planes talks about a Nieuport replica with a Yamaha
engine as the powerplant. The guy has the engine locked in second
gear to supply his reduction. I saw a site with it a long time ago
but can't find it now. Apparently it has hours on it in the air and
pulls ok. Personally I have no opinion on the feasability but we are
experimenters.

[David Hill]

Canuck Bob wrote:
> This month's Kit Planes talks about a Nieuport replica with a Yamaha
> engine as the powerplant. The guy has the engine locked in second
> gear to supply his reduction. I saw a site with it a long time ago
> but can't find it now. Apparently it has hours on it in the air and
> pulls ok. Personally I have no opinion on the feasability but we are
> experimenters.

When I first started looking at using a V-Twin motorcycle engine, my
inclination was to use a Jap V-Twin rather than a Harley, mainly because
in motorcycles the Jap engines are 1) smoother, 2) more reliable, and 3)
more powerful. However, the big drawback is that the transmission is
integral with the engine.

The plus side of that is you already have a well engineered gear
reduction system in place. The minus side is you have a lot of extra
weight that you really don't need. I've talked to folks that used other
Jap engines; they removed as much of the transmission innards as they
could, leaving only what was necessary. This involved some tricky
welding, and still left a lot of metal in place that wasn't really needed.

My inclination changed recently after I dropped by a local Harley shop
and started asking questions.

Turns out the Harley motor is separate from the transmission.

Turns out you can get a new-in-the-crate Evo engine for about $2900.
Comes with dual sprockets standard on the crank (just waiting for a
chain drive PSRU).

Turns out it's a dry sump engine; requires a separate oil tank. Can you
say "lots and lots of oil, and an oil cooler to boot"? That'll help a
lot in regard to engine cooling.

Turns out you can get it either carburated or with electronic fuel
injection. EFI means I can keep the simple single lever control
(throttle only) of the original plane, but be able to operate
efficiently at varying altitudes.

So, the only hard part is designing and building the PSRU. I've seen
the one at http://www.hog-air.com/. From the pictures it looks like it
ties in to the cylinder heads, while the engine mounts are at the base
of the cylinders. It seems this would put a bending stress on the
cylinder bases that they were not designed for. I hope to get a first
hand look at it next month and ask the designer about it.
--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> So, the only hard part is designing and building the PSRU. I've seen
> the one at http://www.hog-air.com/. From the pictures it looks like it
> ties in to the cylinder heads, while the engine mounts are at the base
> of the cylinders. It seems this would put a bending stress on the
> cylinder bases that they were not designed for. I hope to get a first
> hand look at it next month and ask the designer about it.

Couldn't find any specs on the engine other than the torque at 3000 RPM,
and the Harley web site, like the hog-air web site, was kind of a pain
to navigate.

Any idea if they have the power curve on line?

thanks

Ed Wischmeyer

[David Hill]

Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
> Couldn't find any specs on the engine other than the torque at 3000 RPM,
> and the Harley web site, like the hog-air web site, was kind of a pain
> to navigate.
>
> Any idea if they have the power curve on line?
>
> thanks
>
> Ed Wischmeyer

There's a "list of verified horsepower figures for a variety of the Twin
Cam 88 and 95 CID Engines" at
<http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hplist_twin_cam.htm>

If you drop down to the first 68 hp motor 88 CID engine listed, you can
click on it and get a dyno chart at
<http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/dyno_sheets/max_green_tcdyno.jpg>

Just looked up what the Harley website says about torque at 3000 RPM;
they claim peak torque of 85 ft-lbs. The dyno chart referenced shows a
peak torque of about 76, maybe 77 ft-lbs at 4000 RPM. Harley's probably
measuring at the crank; the dyno chart is of measurements taken at the
rear wheel.

hope this helps,
--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[Jesper Rex]

Yes that is about right 150-180 Nautical Miles south of Sondre
Stroemfjord.(About 2 hours with a Cessna 172)

I prefer to fly in and out of Greenland using Sonder Stromfjord, as it
os only closed for flight 3-5 days a year.
Narsarsuaq in Southern Greenland is closed far more, maybe 20-30 days
a year.

From one of my friends I have learned that several of the birds have
been found, or I should say, the remains of the birds. I haven't heard
about the Cargo Pod

Happy Flying from a Back Seat pilot ;-)
Jesper Rex
E-Mail: (Remove the "_" before the @ to mail me)

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:16 -0500, Big John >
wrote:

>Jasper
>
>How far from 'Sendre Stremfjord'? I was flight leader of a flight of
>T-33's and all ejected over 'Son-da-strom' (Sp) Air Base 7 December
>1969. All survived and one airplane was later found by a trapper on a
>frozen lake where it had landed (crashed) and skidded across the lake
>to the shore.
>
>Always wondered if they later ever found the bird with the cargo pod
>where I had all my civilian clothes and msc? Had a suit I got in Hong
>Kong with English material. One of the best fitting suits I ever had
>and material was outstanding.. Of course none of those clothes would
>fit me now? Time and fat wait for no man <G>
>
>Wx was 1000 and one in light snow and GCA radio's quit :o(
>Everything outside cockpit was white. Ground, sides of the Fiords,
>etc.
>
>Found you on the map. Your about 150 SM south of 'Sondie'.
>
>
>Big John
>
>
>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:32:22 -0200, Jesper Rex >
>wrote:
>
>>I live in Nuuk, which is the Inuit name for Godthaab, the largest city
>>in Greenland.
>>
>>Happy flying
>>Jesper Rex
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:05:05 -0500, Big John >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Jasper
>>>
>>>Where in Greenland?
>>>
>>>Big John
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:08:15 -0200, Jesper Rex >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>This guy is building a Replica Airplane, that was originally powered
>>>>by a V-Twin. I guess that means, that to be a proper Replica he NEEDS
>>>>a V-Twin engine to power it, not anything else, no matter how much
>>>>better it is.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know anything about building airplanes, but I did a quick
>>>>search on the net to see which Airplanes I could find that was Indian
>>>>Powered, and it looks like the Original had around 20HP, so I guess
>>>>that he would not need the full performance of the Harley Engine.
>>>>
>>>>Just my 5c.
>>>>
>>>>Happy flying from Greenland
>>>>Jesper Rex
>>>>
>>>>On 20 Sep 2003 13:36:19 -0700, (Ralph DuBose) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...
>>>>>> "David Hill" > wrote
>>>>>> > I'm working on a replica of a 1924 airplane originally powered by an
>>>>>> > Indian Chief motorcycle engine. I've spent a year or two trying to find
>>>>>> > a modern engine that somewhat resembles the Indian, and the best I have
>>>>>> > come up with is a Harley-Davidson.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you really want your airplane to go "potato-potato-potato..." ? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And on a more serious note, isn't the 45 degree configuration a lousy design
>>>>>> for vibration (or an excellent one, depending on how you look at it :p) ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>> In the world of high performance hovercraft, motorcycle engines
>>>>>have been looked at for years. The only situations where they have
>>>>>been made to work is where they are installed complete with gearbox
>>>>>and rigged with a complex chain to belt PSRU. Also, they need to be in
>>>>>an application where full power is rarely needed. After starring at
>>>>>these harsh realities, most people choose between 2 stroke power or
>>>>>Kohler reliability. Or for larger craft, a junkyard 4 cylinder car
>>>>>engine.

[Jesper Rex]

Big John.

The 172 is hangared at the local airport, together with the Dash 7's
and Sikorsky S-61's(Like the one that picked you up)

Unfortunately I don't have a Pilots License. But a collegue has a
license and goes flying quite often. Also I have been flying very
often with my father for about 25 years, he handled the flying, I
handled the navigation(That was before GPS)

The 172 is operated by the local flying club, biggest problem up here
for private planes is availability of fuel, most airports only have
Jet fuel, as all commercial aircraft up here is Turbine or Jet
powered.

Happy flying from Greenland
Jesper Rex


On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:08:38 -0500, Big John >
wrote:

>Jasper
>
>The one that slid in on the ice was a fluke. Bird was trimmed up prior
>to ejection and when engine quit a couple of minutes later (ran last
>tank dry) it just glided in circles down to the ice.
>
>The cargo pod (only on one bird) was underneath the aircraft and any
>wheels up landing, even intentional, would wipe out or tear off.
>
>One pilot broke his elbow on ejection when it hit the canopy rail in
>bird after canopy was blown. This was a tight fit with heavy winter
>jacket and was a know problem.
>
>Was picked up by a civilian Danish chopper (big 20 passenger +/-
>Sikorsky) about an hour after ejection. Flew back to base and was
>dark.
>
>We crossed the VOR on a heading of 090 and then ejected. Was told that
>by doing this would not land in any open water (short life span at
>that time of year).
>
>All in all we were very lucky to make it.
>
>Do you hanger your 172 or tie down and use arctic procedures to start,
>etc.?
>
>Big John
>
>On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:26:54 -0200, Jesper Rex >
>wrote:
>
>>Yes that is about right 150-180 Nautical Miles south of Sondre
>>Stroemfjord.(About 2 hours with a Cessna 172)
>>
>>I prefer to fly in and out of Greenland using Sonder Stromfjord, as it
>>os only closed for flight 3-5 days a year.
>>Narsarsuaq in Southern Greenland is closed far more, maybe 20-30 days
>>a year.
>>
>>From one of my friends I have learned that several of the birds have
>>been found, or I should say, the remains of the birds. I haven't heard
>>about the Cargo Pod
>>
>>Happy Flying from a Back Seat pilot ;-)
>>Jesper Rex
>>E-Mail: (Remove the "_" before the @ to mail me)
>
>----clip----

[Bert Reuling]

That's why diesels are so interesting (and the fuel price of course). They
use regular Jet A-1.

http://www.smaengines.com/
http://www.zoche.de/

Bert Reuling

"Jesper Rex" > wrote in message
...
> Big John.
>
> The 172 is hangared at the local airport, together with the Dash 7's
> and Sikorsky S-61's(Like the one that picked you up)
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a Pilots License. But a collegue has a
> license and goes flying quite often. Also I have been flying very
> often with my father for about 25 years, he handled the flying, I
> handled the navigation(That was before GPS)
>
> The 172 is operated by the local flying club, biggest problem up here
> for private planes is availability of fuel, most airports only have
> Jet fuel, as all commercial aircraft up here is Turbine or Jet
> powered.
>
> Happy flying from Greenland
> Jesper Rex
>
>
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:08:38 -0500, Big John >
> wrote:
>
> >Jasper
> >
> >The one that slid in on the ice was a fluke. Bird was trimmed up prior
> >to ejection and when engine quit a couple of minutes later (ran last
> >tank dry) it just glided in circles down to the ice.
> >
> >The cargo pod (only on one bird) was underneath the aircraft and any
> >wheels up landing, even intentional, would wipe out or tear off.
> >
> >One pilot broke his elbow on ejection when it hit the canopy rail in
> >bird after canopy was blown. This was a tight fit with heavy winter
> >jacket and was a know problem.
> >
> >Was picked up by a civilian Danish chopper (big 20 passenger +/-
> >Sikorsky) about an hour after ejection. Flew back to base and was
> >dark.
> >
> >We crossed the VOR on a heading of 090 and then ejected. Was told that
> >by doing this would not land in any open water (short life span at
> >that time of year).
> >
> >All in all we were very lucky to make it.
> >
> >Do you hanger your 172 or tie down and use arctic procedures to start,
> >etc.?
> >
> >Big John
> >
> >On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:26:54 -0200, Jesper Rex >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Yes that is about right 150-180 Nautical Miles south of Sondre
> >>Stroemfjord.(About 2 hours with a Cessna 172)
> >>
> >>I prefer to fly in and out of Greenland using Sonder Stromfjord, as it
> >>os only closed for flight 3-5 days a year.
> >>Narsarsuaq in Southern Greenland is closed far more, maybe 20-30 days
> >>a year.
> >>
> >>From one of my friends I have learned that several of the birds have
> >>been found, or I should say, the remains of the birds. I haven't heard
> >>about the Cargo Pod
> >>
> >>Happy Flying from a Back Seat pilot ;-)
> >>Jesper Rex
> >>E-Mail: (Remove the "_" before the @ to mail me)
> >
> >----clip----
>