what's a good country for a homebuilt aircraft?

[Lukas]

Hello group,

this may be a bit of an odd question.

I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental and/or
ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would be well suited
for that, economically and with regards to permits/licenses.

Is the topic of learning to fly / acquiring a license better seen
separately from the topic homebuilding / owning an airplane?


I have a couple of cliche ideas about what may be good locations but I
thought I'd raise the question because there might be choices I haven't
considered.

TIA,

Lukas

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
> I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental and/or
> ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would be well suited
> for that, economically and with regards to permits/licenses.

The US seems to be in the lead, but the Australian regulations just
loosened up a whole lot. Don't know about the relative cost of living,
taxes, and all that, or where the kits, fuel, etc, are cheaper. US
insurance and liability are out of control, though. Maybe somebody else knows.

Ed Wischmeyer

[Pete]

Canada is good to us homebuilders. The only downside is the $0.70 Canadian
dollar.

We have an 'advanced ultralight' regulatory category which is a real
loophole for heavy two-passenger 'ultralights' - which are actually anything
under 1200lbs. Licensing for these can be a Rec pilot permit or
Ultralight-instructor rating.

For a homebuilt >1200lbs our regs are simlar to the US, but without the
liability issues, one extra pre-closeout inspection and the Rec pilot permit
makes life easier to fly anywhere in Canada with 1 passenger, non-complex,
day VFR only.

Cheers,
Pete
Europa A239

"Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
...
> > I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
> > I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental and/or
> > ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would be well
suited
> > for that, economically and with regards to permits/licenses.
>
> The US seems to be in the lead, but the Australian regulations just
> loosened up a whole lot. Don't know about the relative cost of living,
> taxes, and all that, or where the kits, fuel, etc, are cheaper. US
> insurance and liability are out of control, though. Maybe somebody else
knows.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer

[Lukas]

Ed Wischmeyer > wrote in
:

>> I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
>> I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental
>> and/or ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would
>> be well suited for that, economically and with regards to
>> permits/licenses.
>
> The US seems to be in the lead, but the Australian regulations just
> loosened up a whole lot. Don't know about the relative cost of living,
> taxes, and all that, or where the kits, fuel, etc, are cheaper. US
> insurance and liability are out of control, though. Maybe somebody
> else knows.

Thanks Ed,

if I'm not mistaken the US knows the category "Experimental Aircraft" for
homebuilts. Am I right to assume that category exists in Australia as well?
I'm wondering if an equivalent category exists somewhere in Europe, as both
US and Australia are relatively difficult for me (EU citizen).

Insurance (and liability), is that the biggest cost factor in owning a
homebuilt plane? If you compare home-building to buying a used production
aircraft, are the insurance costs a lot higher for homebuilts?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 19 Sep 2003 14:21:56 GMT, Lukas > wrote:

>Insurance (and liability), is that the biggest cost factor in owning a
>homebuilt plane? If you compare home-building to buying a used production
>aircraft, are the insurance costs a lot higher for homebuilts?

Both are only high if they catch you. :-)

Seriously, I suspect insurance doesn't cost that much different than
elsewhere. I pay ~$450/year for liability coverage, and not-in-flight hull
and in-flight hull would each run about 1.5% of the value of the airplane
per year.

And, as has been discussed in this group before, the liability fears are
more of a potential than a real-world threat. Even then, it could only
potentially be a problem when you sell the airplane and if the airplane has
an accident and if you're still living in the states and if the person who
thinks they are due damages can find an attorney who'd think the odds are
good enough to justify taking the case on a contingency basis. The odds of
actually getting sued are incredibly slim.

Ron Wanttaja

[Lukas]

"Pete" > wrote in
:

> Canada is good to us homebuilders. The only downside is the $0.70
> Canadian dollar.
>
> We have an 'advanced ultralight' regulatory category which is a real
> loophole for heavy two-passenger 'ultralights' - which are actually
> anything under 1200lbs. Licensing for these can be a Rec pilot permit
> or Ultralight-instructor rating.
>
> For a homebuilt >1200lbs our regs are simlar to the US, but without
> the liability issues, one extra pre-closeout inspection and the Rec
> pilot permit makes life easier to fly anywhere in Canada with 1
> passenger, non-complex, day VFR only.

Very interesting, the <1200lbs. category. In US regulations, I recall a
maximum speed in level flight for Ultralights, which was pretty low (don't
recall the precise figure, something like 60mph), but I might be mixing
something up there.
Do you know if the Canadian "advanced ultralight" category has a speed
limit?

So far, good to homebuilders: US, Canada, Australia. A bit as I expected.
Does anyone know about the conditions for homebuilders in Europe?

[Fred in Florida]

> Very interesting, the <1200lbs. category. In US regulations, I recall a
> maximum speed in level flight for Ultralights, which was pretty low (don't
> recall the precise figure, something like 60mph), but I might be mixing
> something up there.
> Do you know if the Canadian "advanced ultralight" category has a speed
> limit?
>
> So far, good to homebuilders: US, Canada, Australia. A bit as I expected.
> Does anyone know about the conditions for homebuilders in Europe?

Lukas --

France must be pretty good, as they seem to have more homebuilts than anyone
else in Europe.

Fred in Florida

[Pete]

the list of advanced ultralights acceptable here in Canada:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/CCARCS/advancedullist.htm

just take your pick.

I don't believe there is a max speed, just a min indicated stall speed of
45mph (I think).

Cheers,
Pete
Europa builder A239


"Lukas" > wrote in message
. 6.83...
> Do you know if the Canadian "advanced ultralight" category has a speed
> limit?
>
>

[Philippe Vessaire]

Le Vendredi 19 Septembre 2003 15:07
Lukas a écrit:



> I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
> I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental
> and/or ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would
> be well suited for that, economically and with regards to
> permits/licenses.

Consider France, you can have an official airport address for the
plane.
No technical inspection required for ultra light.
3 years between inspections if you built a plane
1 years between inspections if you by an homebuilt plane

Some Belgian owner do that.

By
--
minicab F-PRAZ
Philippe Vessaire

[Kevin Horton]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:12:40 -0400, Pete wrote:

> Canada is good to us homebuilders. The only downside is the $0.70
> Canadian dollar.
>
> We have an 'advanced ultralight' regulatory category which is a real
> loophole for heavy two-passenger 'ultralights' - which are actually
> anything under 1200lbs. Licensing for these can be a Rec pilot permit or
> Ultralight-instructor rating.
>
> For a homebuilt >1200lbs our regs are simlar to the US, but without the
> liability issues, one extra pre-closeout inspection and the Rec pilot
> permit makes life easier to fly anywhere in Canada with 1 passenger,
> non-complex, day VFR only.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
> Europa A239
>
> "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate. I've
>> > long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental and/or
>> > ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would be well
> suited
>> > for that, economically and with regards to permits/licenses.
>>
>> The US seems to be in the lead, but the Australian regulations just
>> loosened up a whole lot. Don't know about the relative cost of living,
>> taxes, and all that, or where the kits, fuel, etc, are cheaper. US
>> insurance and liability are out of control, though. Maybe somebody else
> knows.
>>
>> Ed Wischmeyer

Back before the events of 11 Sept 01, I would have said Canada and the US
were pretty much a toss up in terms of freedom of flying. Each had their
advantadges and disadvantages. But now I think Canada comes out ahead. No
pop-up TFRs. No TFRs around nuclear reactors or sporting events. No
security Nazis at the TSA.

Also, there is a Notice of Proposed Amendment to the Canadian Aviation
Regulations that will officially legalize hiring out the building of a
homebuilt aircraft (if it ever gets approved). See:

<http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/carac/NPAs/MM/Archives/jun01/2001050.htm>

--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/

[Corrie]

"Fred in Florida" > wrote in message >...
> > So far, good to homebuilders: US, Canada, Australia. A bit as I expected.
> > Does anyone know about the conditions for homebuilders in Europe?
>
> Lukas --
>
> France must be pretty good, as they seem to have more homebuilts than anyone
> else in Europe.

You might ask on the Emerauders group on yahoo. Claude Piel was a
prolific French designer, and a lot of his designs are flying in
Europe and the UK.

[Lukas]

"Steve Neale" > wrote in
:

> The situation within EU countries is about to change with the advent
> of EASA .
>
> EASA regulations are replacing JAA recommendations. The theory is to
> apply the same rules across all EU member states. This is all supposed
> to start happening in the next week or so. (Ha!)
>
> http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/safety/easa_en.htm
>
> If things go the normal way they do in the EU, Europe will end up with
> the French system which in this particular case should be good news
> for experimentals. Knowing the way the EU do stuff though, nothing
> much will change soon.
>
> Steve in the UK


Good news, if all goes well. For me personally that's especially good news,
since I expect the whole business of financing a kit and then building it
to take long enough for the whole EU business to be finished when I'm done.

I had kinda expected France to be the best country in Europe for that,
which ain't great for me since I don't speak french well.

Lukas in the Netherlands

[Lukas]

(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote in
om:

> Lukas, you're going to determine where in the entire world you're
> going to move to and live based on the homebuilt regs? Wow! You must
> really want to fly. Good luck.
>
> Ken J. - Sandy Eggo

Ken, I'm looking to relocate anyways, so I thought it might be a good to
align the final decision with flying possibilities.
But yes, I REALLY want to fly.

Only problem is that the ideal places for that involve serious immigration
possibilities for me (EU citizen).

Within the EU, relocating is not such a big deal. I'm considering
Scandinavia, UK and Ireland, Spain, Switzerland, Germany (that's where I
come from, so that would be the most boring decision).

Spain is a big favourite of mine but economically really difficult. I
imagine it could be a good country for flying but I know nothing about the
situation for homebuilders there.

Currently, Ireland and UK seem the most likely choices for me. Does anyone
know if the situation there is a lot worse for homebuilding and flying than
France? France doesn't work for me because my french sucks and I don't
really want to learn it anyway (no offense).

Lukas

[Lukas]

Philippe Vessaire > wrote in news:s84s31-sj2.ln1
@rigel.orion:

> Le Vendredi 19 Septembre 2003 15:07
> Lukas a écrit:
>
>
>
>> I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm looking to relocate.
>> I've long wanted to learn to fly and build a light (experimental
>> and/or ultralight) airplane and I'm wondering which countries would
>> be well suited for that, economically and with regards to
>> permits/licenses.
>
> Consider France, you can have an official airport address for the
> plane.
> No technical inspection required for ultra light.
> 3 years between inspections if you built a plane
> 1 years between inspections if you by an homebuilt plane

Thanks Philippe,

I have to out myself as a total newbie here:
What's the significance of having an official airport address for the
plane?
Does that mean the plane resides at the airport? Expensive?
I was kinda imagining having a trailer and a plane with removable wings.
But I have no idea which is better, or which is cheaper, or what.

To venture even further into speculation territory, I always thought that
some homebuilt pilots in places like the US actually take off and land on
their own land, but I guess that's only possible with fairly remote farms?

To add yet more speculation, I guess that in Europe that kind of thing is a
no go?

Lukas

[Pete]

> Thanks Pete,
>
> a long list, though I didn't see the Europa in there.
> Too heavy? stall speed too high?
>
> Lukas
>

Yip, both correct. I am building in the Amateur-built category, and plan on
touring across North America, as well as soar it in the mountain waves since
I am building both the short and glider wings. Fun, fun, fun!

Now back to the reality of building ;-)

Cheers,
Pete
Europa builder A239.

[Pete]

In Canada,folks fly from farmer's fields all the time. Around my local
airport, there are at least 7 such small strips.

This is one of the reasons that I chose the Europa mono-wheel. If the local
airport goes under and I do not wish to pay landing fees at the larger
international airport, I have a large choice of fields to fly from.

Cheers,
Pete

> To venture even further into speculation territory, I always thought that
> some homebuilt pilots in places like the US actually take off and land on
> their own land, but I guess that's only possible with fairly remote farms?
>
> To add yet more speculation, I guess that in Europe that kind of thing is
a
> no go?
>
> Lukas
>
>
>

[Corrie]

Lukas > wrote in message >...

> To venture even further into speculation territory, I always thought that
> some homebuilt pilots in places like the US actually take off and land on
> their own land, but I guess that's only possible with fairly remote farms?

Remote? Not necessarily.

According to the Class B chart for Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
(population about three million, located on the Mississippi River),
there are about 30 private airstrips within a 30nm radius of
Minneapolis / St. Paul International. There are also two towered
(class D airspace) reliever airports and two uncontrolled airports
within that radius. A number of the private airports are seaplane
bases - Minnesota has a LOT of lakes.

I visited last week with a fellow who flies out of a private grass
strip he shares with several other folks. It's two miles outside of
the town he lives in, which itself is a 30-minute country drive from
the outer ring-road around the Minneapolis / St. Paul metro. Some
people who live there commute to work in Minneapolis, about an hour
each way in traffic. I know folks in Los Angeles with longer
commutes.

Those airports are all within the 30-nm "mode C veil" around major US
airports, so if the airplane was certified with an electrical system
it has to have a transponder that reports altitude. Something like a
Piper Cub, FlyBaby, Volksplane, Air Camper, etc. can get away without
it.

There's even a good German restaurant in Minneapolis! :-)

Corrie

[Gil G.]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:16:33 GMT, "Fred in Florida"
> wrote:

>
>
>> Very interesting, the <1200lbs. category. In US regulations, I recall a
>> maximum speed in level flight for Ultralights, which was pretty low (don't
>> recall the precise figure, something like 60mph), but I might be mixing
>> something up there.
>> Do you know if the Canadian "advanced ultralight" category has a speed
>> limit?
>>
>> So far, good to homebuilders: US, Canada, Australia. A bit as I expected.
>> Does anyone know about the conditions for homebuilders in Europe?
>
>Lukas --
>
>France must be pretty good, as they seem to have more homebuilts than anyone
>else in Europe.
>
>Fred in Florida

Hello,

There are a lot of designs from France, but regulations and the cost
of flying are overwhelming, unless you choose ultralights. Still,
you'll pay as much over there for a litre than you'd pay in the US for
a gallon!

Gil.
--
http://planenews.com